Big Eyes

Walter Keane was one of the most in-demand artists in the 1960s. His portraits of children with saucer-sized eyes could be found in galleries across the world, on advertisements nailed to telephone poles, and on lithographs in department store bargain bins. While Walter was partying with the rich and famous, Margaret Keane, his wife and true creator of Big Eye paintings, was restricted to their basement studio creating new art for Walter to take credit for. Tim Burton, with the help of Amy Adams and Christoph Waltz, connected with Margaret’s story and brought it to the big screen in Big Eyes (2014).

Primary Sources:
Parfrey, Adam & Nelson, Cletus. Citizen Keane: The Big Lies Behind Big Eyes. Feral House, 2014.
Keane Eyes Gallery

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Chapters

• 18:20 Big Eyes film
• 52:27 Big Eyes True Story

Transcript

[MUSIC] Welcome to Criminal Adaptations, the show where we take a look at some of your favorite movies and the true crime stories that inspired them. 

ASHLEY: I'm Ashley, I'm a clinical psychologist and forensic evaluator in the state of Oregon.

REMI: And I'm Remi, I spent over a decade working in the film and television industry in Los Angeles, California.

ASHLEY: And welcome back everyone, we are here on a new day with big eyes and excitement in our hearts and ready to kick off season three with some really exciting new movies this season. How are you doing, Remi?

REMI: I am excited to be kicking off season three. Who would have thought we made it this far? It's a magical experience and we are glad you guys are along for the ride.

ASHLEY: But I am very glad that we are back for this particular movie especially because I am a big Tim Burton fan. 

REMI: And the movie we are doing this week to kick off season three is Tim Burton's big eyes. Had you seen this movie previously, Ashley?

ASHLEY: No, I heard about it. I knew it was directed by Tim Burton and that Amy Adams is the main character in the film. But I don't know anything about the movie or the case before you had suggested opening up season three with this one. I don't know for sure if I really had heard of big eyes and Margaret Keene before this movie. 

REMI: I feel like I have some childhood memories of seeing those big eye posters in stores like Spencer's Gifts and stuff like that maybe. But before the movie, I really don't think I knew very much about the artist behind the paintings. And honestly, I kind of forgotten the paintings even existed and when I saw the trailer, I was like, 

ASHLEY: "Oh yeah, those big eye creepy children paintings." I am a big Tim Burton fan. I see most of his work. 

REMI: I am not a fan of a lot of his more recent stuff. But I feel like big eyes is a back-to-basics type movie for Old Timmy.

ASHLEY: Well, hopefully you will win back your admiration with Beetlejuice 2, that's coming out soon.

REMI: Long time coming for Beetlejuice 2. I am cautiously optimistic. I love Beetlejuice so much. Beetlejuice, Batman, Peewee's Big Adventure. Those were the movies that really got me into Tim Burton when I was a little kid. And it's probably one of the big reasons that I ever attempted to move to Hollywood and become a filmmaker to begin with. 

ASHLEY: And you missed Edward Siserhands.

REMI: Believe it or not, Edward Siserhands scared the shit out of me when I was a little kid. Every time the trailer would come on, I would run into the other room and hide. That's how freaked out I was by just the appearance of Edward Siserhands. And it wasn't until years later that I had the courage to see that movie. But as a little kid, for some reason, it really scared the shit out of me. Beetlejuice, I was fine with, Batman, fine, Edward Siserhands kind of creeped me out.

ASHLEY: Well, back to Big Eyes. It would make sense if you did see her paintings of the Big Eyes children before because what I didn't know going into this even when I found out it was about an artist. Is this woman's work? Well, I guess at the time everyone thought it was this man's work, but anyway, her work was pretty much everywhere throughout the '60s and she's had several resurgence in the popularity of her paintings throughout the years. And by the time you were in Spencer's Gifts, you probably would have been what? Like a young teen? So that probably would have been during a resurgence and I'll explain what prompted that a little later.

REMI: I do know she got another resurgence from this film, but I will go into that a little bit later. Should we just get into our first episode of season three? Our first Monday episode of season three, thank you all for starting your week off with us now.

ASHLEY: Yeah, let's get into it, tell me about how this movie came to be.

REMI: Big Eyes is a 2014 film written by Scott Alexander and Larry Karazowski. I am probably missing that name and I apologize to Larry. It is directed by Tim Burton, starring Amy Adams and Christoph Waltz. Are you a Christoph Waltz fan?

ASHLEY: Whenever I see him, I always forget everything he's in other than Django.

REMI: He's such a devious little guy. I love it when he pops up in movies. He's always kind of playing Christoph Waltz, but it works for a lot of characters, I feel. And Amy Adams, I am a big fan of. I saw her in a grocery store back in LA one time and she is very tiny. I think she is a magnificent actress and I usually check out something if I hear that she's a part of it because she's very good.

ASHLEY: Well, I'm pretty sure this is not the first true crime movie she's gonna pop up in.

REMI: She has an upcoming movie called Night Bitch about a woman who believes she is transforming into a dog. But something we will not be covering here. It is unfortunately not true crime. Anyway, back to the story. Writer Scott and Larry, who had previously collaborated on the screenplay for The People vs. Larry Flint.

ASHLEY: It all comes full circle now, doesn't it?

REMI: There is gonna be more nods to past stories that we've covered throughout this case. So this is number one. Let's count them. The pair originally wrote big eyes as a spec script after meeting with artist Margaret Keene and successfully obtaining the film rights to her life story.

ASHLEY: What's a spec script?

REMI: A spec script is a script written without a deal in place for the writers. So it's more of a portfolio piece that writers can show off as a sample of their work and what they're capable of. Some famous examples of spec scripts are Thelma and Louise, Goodwill Hunting and American Beauty.

ASHLEY: Goodwill Hunting makes sense since that was like a passion project by Matt Damon and Ben Affleck before they were the mega stars they are today.

REMI: They wrote that script because they weren't getting roles and movies that they wanted so they wrote a movie that they wanted to see and wanted to be a part of and a lot of other people loved that script and if you write a good spec script it can really open a lot of doors for you in the movie industry or television industry as well. In October 2007, it was announced that the project would be moving forward with Scott and Larry attached to direct their screenplay along with Kate Hudson and Thomas Hayden Church starring in the two lead roles. So these guys got a pretty big deal right out of the gates with this script with an opportunity to direct their material. That does not happen a lot.

ASHLEY: Who's Thomas Hayden Church? Do you know who he is?

REMI: He was in the film sideways is probably the big thing he is known for. He was also a sandman in the Spider-Man movies but he was more sand than Thomas Hayden Church in that movie.

ASHLEY: Gotcha, I couldn't put a name to a face when you said sideways but sandman I do recall.

REMI: And for our older audience he was also in the show Wings which I used to watch with my dad when I was very very small. Filming was set to begin in June of 2008 before eventually being delayed due to reasons relating to a new screen actor's guild contract. By September of 2010 Tim Burton had become involved with the film as a producer with principal photography now scheduled to begin in April of 2012 with Reese Witherspoon and Ryan Reynolds now attached to star.

ASHLEY: Oh I bet you're happy he dropped out now aren't you Remy?

REMI: I am not a Ryan Reynolds fan at all for personal reasons even movies aside. When I was in LA I was working on a production on the Paramount lot and I got lost and I couldn't find the parking garage and I was wandering around this gigantic studio looking for the parking garage for quite a while and I was just kind of asking anyone that I came across if they knew where the parking garage was and there was one random guy walking by me he was holding a motorcycle helmet and I just kind of called out to him like hey do you know where the parking garage is he turned around it was Ryan Reynolds and he said no idea man and just kept walking. I turned the corner and the parking garage was right around the corner literally like all he had to do was say it's around the corner. Why would anyone say they have no idea in that situation he had a motorcycle helmet on not on but he was carrying his motorcycle helmet so he clearly just came from the parking garage so what kind of a person does that I'm just it gets me heated every single time and I'm sorry for getting worked up about Ryan Reynolds. I do not like Ryan Reynolds.

ASHLEY: Yeah in case you couldn't tell by the inflection in Remy's voice the story every time really sparks a passion in him and I think it's hilarious and it's the reason why we can't watch any Ryan Reynolds movies. Remy won't let me.

REMI: He's just so patronizing I can't stand him and he should have just said it's around the corner dude simple as that.

ASHLEY: Well he is not in big eyes so what happens next?

REMI: Well Reese Witherspoon would drop out of the role in order to star in the 2014 film Wild instead of big eyes have you seen Wild?

ASHLEY: Yeah it's pretty boring it's just another one of those like women goes on a journey to find herself.

It's kind of like into the wild only the female version I guess.

ASHLEY: But with less like adversity she just kind of walks and walks and like gets sore feet and that's really it but I think it actually might be based on a true story I'm not sure.

 REMI: I'm pretty positive it is based on a true story I saw it a long time ago there's no crimes involved so we won't be covering it and the only thing I remember about the movie is her having a backpack that was literally bigger than she was and that is the only thing I remember about Reese Witherspoon's wild but she was nominated for an Academy Award for it so I guess it was a good choice in the end. In 2012 two-time Academy Award winner Christoff Waltz began showing an interest in playing the lead role of Walter Keane which was a tantalizing prospect for producer Tim Burton who began showing interest in directing the film personally. Burton had additionally become excited about the possibility of directing a much smaller more grounded project far removed from the Hollywood blockbusters he had become so well known for and I am glad that he did. Do more of that Tim I like these types of movies. The addition of Burton as director also meant that the film would finally go into production nearly 11 years after the initial idea had been conceived. Hollywood moves pretty slowly sometimes it has that in common with the legal industry. Screenwriters Scott and Larry would then gracefully hand over directing duties to Burton wholeheartedly trusting in his vision of their material and I also agree with that if you're gonna hand over your screenplay to somebody I think Tim Burton is a pretty good person to hand it over to

ASHLEY: especially if it's something that you care about getting made and being well received it would make sense to give over some of that control to someone who is a very well-respected director with a lot of experience.

REMI: I would imagine part of the reason why this film took so long to get made is because they were scheduled to direct the film and they were unknowns and the second you get a big name director like Tim Burton on board the project immediately moves forward so I'd say it was a no-brainer. By 2013 Tim Burton had officially taken over as director for big eyes with Amy Adams and Christoff Waltz now attached as the leads. Burton himself has been a lifelong fan of Margaret Keane's art and even owns an extensive collection of her work. In the 1990s Burton commissioned Keane to paint a portrait of his then-girlfriend Lisa Marie along with his late Chihuahua Poppy and I've seen the photo it is pretty cute. Years later Keane would also be commissioned to paint a portrait of Burton's former partner Helena bonham-carter.

ASHLEY:  I've had that look too cool she already has crazy eyes.

REMI: I love her look she has such an interesting appearance I have not seen the painting of her but I definitely want to check it out after this. Burton has also cited Keane's work as an inspiration for many of his own creations which have likewise been characteristically depicted as having big round eyes. Stating what probably influenced me was the mixture of emotions that you get by looking at the images. There's sort of an eerie quality and sadness as well as a darkness and humor and color.
 
ASHLEY: I can see that in Sally in the nightmare before Christmas and then what's that one he made? Frankenweenie didn't he do that I think the characters have big eyes on that the dog does.

REMI: He did do Frankenweenie as well and if you have ever seen any of his drawings which I worked for an art gallery in LA briefly and we had some of his hand drawn notebook pages on display almost all the characters have those gigantic big eyes they don't have big pupils they look more like Simpson's eyes but they do have big giant round eyes all of them. Burton envisioned six-time Academy Award nominee Amy Adams for the role of Margaret do largely in part to the actresses own prominent big eyes. Burton said what was so amazing to me about Amy was by just staring you feel so much emotion in her at least I did you feel the sort of conflict going on inside of her without her doing anything you feel it just by looking at her I find those kind of actors amazing

ASHLEY: well that is a good description of the real Margaret keen so if that's the reasoning why he chose her then that shows his director abilities.

REMI: Though Amy Adams liked the script she initially turned down the role of Margaret Keene believing that the character lacked a stronger sense of self Adams would later gain a new perspective on the character and accepted the part after working on the 2013 film American Hustle citing Margaret's quiet dignity and relationship with her daughter Jane as the deciding factors for research Amy Adams consulted with the real Margaret keen who is in her late 80s at the time and was apparently extremely overwhelmed by the entire concept of anyone ever wanting to make a major motion picture based on her own life

ASHLEY: she was an extremely private person so I imagine doing this and being involved in some way was very overwhelming and if she is anything like her character in the film she is extremely shy as well

REMI: in contrast Christoff Waltz made the following statement regarding his preparation for the role of Margaret's nefarious husband Walter what I usually do is try to work out what it says on the page that's what I'm hired for I'm not an investigative journalist who needs to dig up the hidden and dirty truth about some living or recently deceased character I'm just an actor who plays a part that was written by Scott and Larry and directed by Tim Burton I was not in his body. very different approach to acting then a lot of these other actors he is literally just trusting in the director and doing what the screenplay says since the real Walter keen had not come from any sort of German lineage Waltz did apparently ask Tim Burton if he needed to suppress his Austrian accent for the role but Burton insisted that his accent was fine and he really shouldn't worry about it I take it the real Walter was not of German heritage and did not have a German accent?

ASHLEY: no they were both born in the states where was the real Walter from did he have a southern accent or any sort of accent I don't know I haven't heard his voice but he was born in Nebraska but he lived all over the place we'll get into it later

REMI: I searched for a clip of his voice and could not find one and I was actually kind of surprised by that I figured this guy loved media attention he would have done the interviews and stuff but I could not find any if anyone has one or knows of one out there please send us a link I'm very curious what the real Walter sounded like

ASHLEY: he spent most of his life in California so I imagine too you and me he probably didn't have a strong prominent accent

REMI: this also marks the first live action film not to feature either Johnny Depp or Helena Bonham Carter since his 1996 film Mars Attacks and we are both big fans of Mars Attacks! 

ASHLEY: I think we looked into this and Johnny Depp was supposed to have a small role but I can't remember why he didn't I can't remember who he was supposed to play

REMI: I want to say maybe the Michael's a fox role or something like that it wasn't a weird character but I think he was going to be in it him and Tim are buddy buddies in November 2014 it was reported that the singer Lana Del Ray would be contributing two original songs for the soundtrack titled Big Eyes and I Can Fly which were both written and performed by Del Ray and were officially released on December 23rd of 2014 so with that should we dive into Tim Burton's big eyes

ASHLEY: yeah I mean you've already said us up with that opening theme so make sense to go right into it..

REMI: our story begins with the oh so familiar words based on true events the opening credits roll over a painting depicting a crying little girl with gigantic black eyes the image is then duplicated and reprinted over and over again onto a separate pile of identical copies each featuring a prominent signature from the paintings original artist named Keen upon the opening credits conclusion there is a quote from Andy Warhol that reads "I think what Keen has done is just terrific it has to be good if they were bad so many people wouldn't like it"

ASHLEY: Andy Warhol was a fan

REMI: we then fade in on a bright and sunny northern California in the year 1958 Margaret Ulbrich being played by Amy Adams runs frantically through her suburban home hastily packing her bags grabbing any final necessities including several paintings which had previously adorned the walls through narration we learned that Margaret is currently in the midst of leaving her husband which at the time was considered rather controversial with her young daughter Jane being played by Delaney Ray already waiting in the vehicle Margaret packs up the last of their belongings and tearfully drives away into the brightly colored scenery sometime later after relocating north beach San Francisco Margaret has a rendezvous with her friend Dee-Ann spelled DE-ANN for anyone wondering played by Kristen Ritter and I love Kristen Ritter and I wish she was in more stuff and I am surprised is the first in Burton movie she's in Margaret comes across as extremely shy and inexperienced with the outside world so DE-ANN shows Margaret the lay of the land around north beach recommending various trendy shops and restaurants along the way Margaret also begins applying to jobs around this time but is forced to bring her daughter Jane along with her to wait in the car during interviews unfortunately during this time sexism is still alive and well in most workplaces so many employers would never even consider hiring a divorced single mother it also doesn't help that Margaret has absolutely no prior employment experience beyond painting but she did attend the Watkins Art Institute in Nashville Tennessee and actually has quite the impressive portfolio these skills ultimately land Margaret a job at a furniture company painting adorable children's book illustrations on baby cribs to earn additional income Margaret also try selling custom portraits for two dollars a piece at an outdoor art show in the park but seems to be lost in a sea of other struggling artists this particular afternoon a boy stress man selling paintings of Parisian street corners costing upwards of thirty five dollars a piece is stationed in the booth directly next to her this man who clearly has a knack for salesmanship is named Walter Keene being played by Christoff Waltz Walter compliments Margaret's work and strikes up a flirtatious conversation leading to a romantic dinner that very same evening Walter brings Margaret to a fancy French restaurant that night and brags about how he never has to pay for a meal there after giving the owner one of his paintings during dinner Walter finally recalls his time studying painting abroad while living in France while Margaret has never even been on an airplane before and has led an extra ordinarily sheltered existence Walter also confesses that he is envious of Margaret's ability to capture people's faces while he is only capable of painting still objects and street corners one afternoon Margaret and Walter set up canvases by the lake in front of the San Francisco palace of fine arts where Margaret is painting one of her usual big-eyed children while Walter has yet to paint a thing Walter inquires as to why Margaret always paints children with such big eyes and Margaret theorizes that her inspiration may trace back to her childhood during a period of time when she had temporarily lost her hearing and had to rely mainly on people's eyes in order to understand how they were feeling they are momentarily interrupted by a man who seems to have some sort of a real estate venture going on with Walter but Walter quickly usheres the man away before he can reveal any details when Margaret questions Walter about the interaction Walter shamefully confesses that he is actually a hugely successful real estate agent and does not really earn a living by selling his paintings 

ASHLEY: oh my god what a loser shameful so shameful being a successful real estate agent

REMI: side note the real Margaret Keane is reading a book on a park bench behind Amy Adams and Christoph Waltz in the scene

ASHLEY: oh I love it when they put the true life people just kind of in the background somewhere

REMI: it's fun they do it a lot with these movies I'm noticing as long as the people are not in jail or trying to keep a low profile after getting out of jail sometime later Margaret receives a letter in the mail from her ex-husband who is now suing Margaret for custody of their daughter claiming that she is an unfit mother and cannot properly support their child as a single parent as a solution Walter offers to marry Margaret to help her retain custody of Jane and though it does take a bit of convincing Walter showers Margaret with promises of a blissful future together and she does eventually agree to marry him

ASHLEY: so I don't have this in my portion but well I have this part Walter ends up writing an autobiography later and he describes this interaction and Margaret has to and it's been what you've described but per Walter he described Margaret as this like persistent sex crazed lady who begged him to marry her and he reluctantly agreed and he caught her cheating on him at the wedding but he did it anyway because he had his own kid and it was going to interfere with custody battles

REMI: I'm inclined not to believe a single word that comes out of Walter Keen's mouth

ASHLEY: yes I'm sure we get into it in your portion and it'll really be driven home later throughout the entire podcast but he is a compulsive liar

REMI: Walter and Margaret are soon married in Hawaii and enjoying a wonderful honeymoon together with Jane on the tropical shores Margaret spends her days drawing portraits of hotel guests while Walter socializes with other women at the bar Margaret has also begun signing her portraits with her married name Keen back in San Francisco Margaret is having lunch with Dee-Ann in Chinatown fondly sharing photographs and memories from her recent honeymoon but Diane seems concerned that Margaret and Walter's relationship is progressing far too quickly yeah they met in the spring or summer of 1954 and were married at some point in 1955 so they really didn't wait a lot of time Diane also claims that Walter has a reputation around town as a womanizer but Margaret still firmly believes that Walter is an honest man who will help provide for her and her daughter elsewhere at a modern art gallery we are introduced to an art dealer named Rubin being played by Jason Schwartzman this character is completely superfluous and doesn't really contribute anything to the story or mean anything but it's Jason Schwartzman and he was in the polka king so I wanted to mention the scene

ASHLEY: so reference number two to past movies we've already covered

REMI: Rubin is in the middle of making a sale when he is rudely interrupted by Walter barging through the gallery's front entrance after successfully scaring away Rubin's customer Walter then attempts to sell Rubin several of his perission street corner paintings but Rubin is unimpressed by Walter's work Walter persists and shows Rubin a few of his wife's paintings but Rubin is still not convinced and describes Margaret's work as creepy and unappealing later that evening Walter and Margaret are out having drinks at a trendy jazz club discussing art as usual seizing a momentary opportunity Walter introduces himself as a painter to the club's owner Enrico Benducci played by John Polito Walter offers to showcase his work in an exhibition at Enrico's jazz club but Enrico isn't interested so instead Walter offers to rent a few of the club's walls as a compromise

ASHLEY: even though this man is awful he is very very skilled at marketing and for sure has the gift of gab

REMI: he comes across as a pure salesman he is great at talking he is great at show boating he is great at making things seem better than they actually are he really did have a talent in this area and could have probably excelled as just a normal salesman 

ASHLEY: if he would have chosen to use his gift in the end for good rather than evil 

REMI: Walter does buy some publicity for the exhibition which will feature work from both him and Margaret the exact location of the exhibition is far less than ideal with Walter and his art station near the back of the club directly in front of the restrooms

ASHLEY: i mean i don't think that's that bad everyone has to get out of the bathroom

REMI: true he tries his hardest anytime someone is going to the women's room or the men's room he really gifted it all but it's a hard sell when people have to take a piss deterred but not defeated Walter tries repeatedly to make a sale with little success he is finally able to sell one of Margaret's paintings with the misunderstanding that it had actually been painted by Walter instead of Margaret after the exhibition Walter gets drunk and gets into a physical altercation with the club's owner and Rico about the shitty location of the exhibition culminating in Walter smashing one of his wife's paintings over and Rico's head making front page headlines in the process

ASHLEY: hopefully not the painting you just sold

REMI: he had a lot of unsolved paintings around this time so I think he had a few to spare Walter is arrested and Margaret shamefully bails her husband out of jail the following morning after his release Walter admits to accidentally taking credit for one of Margaret's big eyes that he had sold the previous evening Margaret is clearly hurt by this and respectfully asks that her husband not take credit for her work ever again reasonable request that night Walter returns to the jazz club to retrieve the paintings he had left behind after his altercation to his astonishment the club's owner and Rico is actually thrilled that the newspaper headline had managed to increase his business so the two men come to an agreement in which they will continue their feud in public while still allowing Walter to sell his paintings in Enrico's club enticed by Walter's theatrics an art columnist named Danny Nolan played by Danny Houston becomes interested in writing a story on Walter's big eyes paintings Walter returns home that night overjoyed with fistful of cash from selling every last one of Margaret's paintings and enthusiastically celebrates with his wife after this initial success Margaret begins spending the majority of her time up in the attic toiling away in her makeshift art studio creating dozens upon dozens of big eyes paintings while Walter continues selling her work down at the jazz club one fateful evening Margaret discovers Walter at the club chatting up a group of women once again taking credit for painting Margaret's big eyes Margaret confronts Walter about his deception but Walter insists that he was only lying to make a sale nevertheless Margaret is still devastated but Walter quickly turns his attention to an Italian typewriter tycoon named Dino Olavetti who has become transfixed on one of Margaret's big eyes Dino is immediately interested in purchasing the piece but wishes to know the artist who created such a captivating painting after a long pause Walter finally chimes in taking full credit for Margaret's work and ends up selling the big eyes for five thousand dollars the following day Walter is absolutely giddy from all the money he's made selling a single painting while Margaret still feels betrayed by Walter taking credit for her work Walter defends his actions through gaslighting Margaret by spouting some manipulative bullshit about how they share everything now since they're married yada yada yada you know the type of bullshit it's just nonsense this guy is an asshole from that point forward Walter continues selling Margaret's paintings under the guise of being his own creations being the shoman that he is Walter begins publicly presenting various celebrities and politicians with big eyes paintings including the mayor of san francisco an ambassador from the soviet union and the actress jone crawford with this growing success Walter inevitably opens up his own gallery featuring Margaret's work shamelessly being passed off as his own Walter even convinces Margaret's daughter Jane that her mother had given up painting altogether and that he was the true artist behind the big eyes success

ASHLEY: gaslighting is a very fucked up hell of a thing it's crazy what manipulative assholes can get away with with that sort of thing

REMI: riddled with guilt from lying to her own daughter Margaret goes to church to confess her sins soon after despite not being a Catholic the priest recommends that Margaret trust her husband's judgment since he is a man and therefore head of the household according to the word of god barf seriously right though Walter and his big eyes have become the talk of the town around san francisco one particular art critic named john canady played by tarant stamp isn't as easily impressed with keen's work and begins publicly stating that he doesn't consider keen to be a real artist Walter intends on making a television appearance to refute canady but first needs Margaret to reveal the exact reason why all of her paintings exclusively feature images of big-eyed children since many have begun to question why a fully grown man has chosen this subject matter as his primary focus

ASHLEY: and what does he tell the people ?

REMI: well to his dismay Margaret is unable to convey her specific inspiration behind the big eyes so instead Walter fabricates an elaborate tale about his art school days living in france and being severely impacted by the war torn orphans he would see on every street corner he would call them the lost children

ASHLEY: what a guy just trying to bring awareness to orphaned world war 2 kids

REMI: well Walter's fictional backstory goes over extremely well with the television audience garnering further media attention and publicity in the process following Walter's interview people around the city begin stealing posters promoting Walter's art gallery which prominently feature an image of one of Margaret's big eyes seeing a financial opportunity here Walter begins printing posters of Margaret's big eyes to sell to the general public who simply cannot afford to purchase an original these prints could also be sold anywhere and everywhere as opposed to the originals which primarily resided within art galleries and i'm assuming this is one of the first artists to start doing this sort of thing

ASHLEY: yeah Walter really wanted to make sure that it wasn't just rich people who could buy art but it was just your average American so he really was the person that kind of brought art out of the galleries into like the public domain

REMI: wow so Walter Keane is one of the reasons why we have art posters today that's pretty crazy

ASHLEY: yeah he put these big eyes everywhere on posters on smaller prints on postcards on plates you could find it everywhere from galleries to bargain sales bins

REMI: out at the grocery store one day Margaret picks up a book on numerology and spots a prominent display featuring various big eyes merchandise as you had just mentioned

ASHLEY: actually well it also spawned a lot of  imitators

REMI: as she approaches the checkout Margaret momentarily loses her grasp on reality as everyone around her suddenly appear to have gigantic big eyes staring in her direction it is very creepy looking in the scene that has like Lucy in the sky vibes with this loss of touch with reality. 

ASHLEY: I could have gone without this scene

REMI: i think they're trying to blame it on all the time she's spending up in the attic painting with all of the chemicals that's what i'm chalking it up to because there is a scene later that kind of hints at that sort of thing but that's what i feel this is is she is just stuck in a very confined space with a lot of toxic chemicals and paint stuff being fumed around up there like turpentine and whatnot

ASHLEY: it could also be from the isolation the stress and the manipulation that she's going through none of those are good for your mental health

REMI: in an effort to make a name for herself separate from her husband margaret adopts a new art style for herself completely distinct from her previous big eyes the Walter is against the idea he reluctantly concedes and allows margaret to begin showing off some of her new pieces at their art gallery 

ASHLEY: is this the long-necked women?

REMI: yes these are long-necked women without big eyes i don't mention these in my portion because they just didn't really latch on but that is the style she adopted to try to make a name for herself that and she just kept doing portraits. Walter also arranges an interview for margaret with his friend dick nolyn the art columnist unfortunately during the interview margaret comes across as rather meek in comparison to her charismatic husband so Walter easily sees his control over their entire conversation 

ASHLEY: i feel like most people would come across as meek in the presence of this man he just seems like so gregarious and out there it would be hard for him to not just kind of take over the interview if he even said anything

REMI: i totally agree on that this seems like the type of guy that if you were out to dinner with ten people he would be the one at the table doing the majority of the talking to everyone all of a sudden they are interrupted by a teenage girl walking through the front door claiming to be Walter's daughter margaret is visibly taken aback by this revelation as she had not previously known before this very moment that Walter had any children margaret asks to speak with Walter in private and is clearly devastated by Walter's deception again but Walter downplays this reveal and half-heartedly apologizes before returning to the interview back at the keen gallery prince of margaret's big eyes are selling like hotcakes with Walter playing to the room as usual in the far corner stands margaret surrounded by several paintings featuring her new long neck art style sadly once someone finally shows any interest in one of her new art pieces margaret quickly scares them away with her talks of numerology

ASHLEY: do you know what numerology is ?

REMI: actually not really i know it's like a spiritual practice that judging by the name i assume involves numbers but that's all i know about it yeah i do not know a ton about it but i think it has something to do with like the significance of numbers or repeating numbers in your life something like that by 1963 margaret, Walter and Jane are all living in woodside california with Walter's fame continuing to rise while margaret slaves away in her dimly lit studio creating countless big eyes for Walter's adoring fan. during a visit from her friend Dee-Ann one day Dee-Ann discovers margaret's secret art studio confirming her suspicions that margaret had actually been the artist behind the big eyes all along after realizing that dianne may be onto his secret Walter gets drunk and belligerently ejects Dee-Ann from their home commanding that she never return. years pass as margaret becomes increasingly isolated from the world around her spending her every waking moment in the studio painting a never ending supply of big eyes for Walter one day while rummaging through some old paintings margaret uncovers a box containing several of Walter's peresion street pieces signed by a different artist margaret goes to examine one of Walter's other art pieces hanging in the den and carefully scrapes off Walter's signature revealing the original artist's name underneath confirming that Walter had been lying to margaret about being a painter since the very first day they met

ASHLEY: hence why he couldn't recreate a single thing when they were sitting in front of that ocean many years prior

REMI: Tim Burton says in interviews he tried to carefully film it to make it appear that Walter had been painting things but never actually show him painting anything in the film but the big giveaway is that scene when he's just standing there and margaret had already done a full piece in front of the lake while Walter is just standing there admiring the scenery so to speak. to make matters worse not only has Walter never painted anything but he's never even been to peris before either that's not true he did live in peris for a bit darn it that would have been a lovely addition if that part was true so he was actually telling the truth about that okay that night margaret tells Walter that he needs to start sleeping in the spare bedroom from now on Walter again tries to manipulate the situation by taking margaret out to dinner at the very same French restaurant where they had had their first date together but margaret sees right through Walter's deceitful tactics causing Walter to lose his temper and threaten to have margaret taken out if she ever tells anyone their secret Walter then informs margaret of his latest plan to unveil his masterpiece at the 1964 World's Fair which he of course expect margaret to paint for him as margaret begins work on Walter's masterpiece she again begins losing her grip on reality but continues to carry on that night Jane finds her mother passed out on the floor of her art studio and after waking her confesses that she had always known that the big eyes were her mother's paintings

ASHLEY: I mean margaret had been painting her daughter with these big eyes for years and years and years and suddenly your mom has just stopped and this stepdad is just adopted her exact same style I mean maybe as a little kid you buy it but she's older now and she is not stupid. a stepdad who she's never seen paint a single thing exactly?!

 REMI: in April of 1964 in the preceding days before Walter's masterpiece is set to be officially shown to the public at the World's Fair canady the art critic manages to get a sneak peak of Walter's painting this so-called masterpiece consists of a movie screen sized art canvas depicting hundreds of big-eyed children from around the globe a black tie celebration is held in New York City the day before the event with both Margaret and Walter in attendance though Margaret intends on filing for divorce immediately following their return to the West Coast during the party Walter is made aware of a New York Times article written by Canady utterly lambasting Walter's masterpiece in Raged Walter storms off to confront Canady who is also in attendance at that day's party Walter screams at the critic in defense of his work but Canady is unimpressed and reiterates his belief that Walter's masterpiece is nothing more than pandering trash Walter nearly retaliates by stabbing Canady in the eye with a dinner fork but manages to restrain himself at the last possible moment due to Walter's actions his painting is removed from its exhibition at the World's Fair before it's unveiling.

ASHLEY:  what are they gonna do with this huge thing?

REMI: i have no idea it is monstrously gigantic this is an obscenely big art piece i have no idea how long it took her to make this thing but it's like having a hundred paintings mashed into one basically. back in California Walter is intoxicated and blames Margaret for the paintings failure petrified Margaret and Jane watch nervously as Walter begins throwing lit matches at the girls causing them to retreat into Margaret's art studio after furiously pounding on the door Walter starts dropping lit matches through the keyhole igniting the turpentine soaked carpet within luckily Margaret and Jane manage to escape through a back door and make a getaway in Margaret's vehicle this is why every room needs to have two exits Honolulu Hawaii one year later Margaret and her daughter have found a new home and appear to be relatively happy with their new lives the only lingering issue is Walter's refusal to sign their divorce papers unless Margaret assigns him all the rights to every painting she's ever produced and agrees to paint him an additional 100 art pieces for him to take credit for and continue to sell in the future

ASHLEY: yeah fuck off

REMI: defeated Margaret does reluctantly agree to all of Walter's demands but not for long even with her newfound independence Margaret still feels lonely and isolated so she makes friends with some Jehovah's Witnesses and quickly becomes a convert meanwhile back in California Walter is living the high life from the continued profits he's made from Margaret's big eyes but is flabbergasted after receiving her latest batch of paintings which have all been signed with Margaret's signature

ASHLEY: you go girl finally standing up for yourself!  

REMI: having garnered some local celebrity as an artist in Honolulu Margaret is invited onto a radio show where she finally reveals to the world that she is the actual painter of the big eyes and that her husband has been taking credit for her work all these years news of the truth spreads rapidly eventually making its way back to Walter who retorts in a Gnett newspaper article denying all of Margaret's claims so Margaret responds by suing both Walter and Gnett newspapers for $17 million I get a great feeling of her just standing up for herself after all of this bullshit years and years of this guy just keeping her down and she's finally like you know what fuck you. during their first appearance in court at the trial of Margaret Keane versus Walter Keane and Gnett newspapers the attorney representing Gnett newspapers submits into evidence several interviews with Margaret dating back to 1958 where she gave Walter full credit for painting the big eyes as a result the judge dismisses Gnett newspapers libel charge leaving Walter alone to represent himself for slander Walter begins by dramatically questioning Margaret on the witness stand which inevitably deteriorates into a shouting match until the judge is forced to intervene for his next witness Walter calls himself to the stand to plead his case but the judge soon grows tired of Walter's show voting and concludes that the only way to truly find out who the real artist is is to have both Walter and Margaret each create a painting live in front of everyone right there in the courtroom and I think this is a pretty great no duh type of idea you say you're the artist paint yeah it's very clever of the judge to come up with that idea they're each given one hour and provided with identical art supplies to create their pieces once the time limit has begun Margaret immediately gets to work outlining her painting while Walter fidgets around his canvas clearly avoiding the task at hand in a rather lame attempt at an excuse Walter complains of a shoulder injury and insists that he is unable to paint that day while Margaret has nearly finished creating one of her classic big eyes before the time limit has even run out

ASHLEY: I feel like I would faint and like fake a seizure or something if I were him

REMI: he literally picks up his paintbrush and acts like he injured his arm while reaching to make the first stroke of the painting it's utterly ridiculous in the end the jury finds in favor of Margaret on all points including charges of defamation emotional distress and damaged reputation before the closing credits we learned that Walter never accepted defeat insisting he was the true artist for the rest of his life he died in 2000 bitter and penniless he never produced another painting Margaret found personal happiness and remarried after many years in Hawaii she moved back to San Francisco and opened a new gallery she still paints every day and that was Tim Burton's big eyes what do you think Ashley? 

ASHLEY: Very interesting switch for Tim Burton to do this I don't want to say not dramatic but there isn't a lot of like theatrics in this outside of Christopher Walt's personality but it's very rooted in reality which is not something we usually see from him

REMI: he did a film called Ed Wood which I don't think you have seen but I really enjoyed and it is the true story of what many to believe was possibly the worst director who ever lived and I think Burton has a soft spot for these true stories about misunderstood artists and I really wish he did more of that sort of thing honestly I'm getting tired of the Disney remakes I think he's done enough of those I would like some more original stuff I'm still open to Ville Juice 2 but I really like this movie and I wish you do more things like this the other thought I had is even though we couldn't find any of the interviews of Walter Keane

ASHLEY: it sounds like Christopher Walt's did a really good job of portraying this like egocentric boisterous maniac

REMI: Christoph Walt's does an amazing job in every movie I have seen him and this is no different he does a great job of stealing the scene while still giving Amy Adams room to do something with a character that really doesn't talk much she's very introverted but they balance out in the scenes he doesn't take any scene away from Amy Adams but he is the main center of attention in a lot of the scenarios of the scenes it's very well done I I liked their dynamic in the film the actors I mean not the real people

ASHLEY: so perhaps his fly by the seat of your pants acting style pays off well

REMI: let's get into a little bit about the release of this film in an interview Tim Burton has said that screenwriter Scott and Larry showed Margaret the film before it had been completed and she actually got quite emotional during the screening I don't blame her at all I can't imagine how you wouldn't looking back at all this torture that she experienced throughout years of her life we've heard a couple of these stories of the real life people seeing the film adaptations of their story and it really emotionally moving them and I will most likely never experience that sort of thing but I would imagine it would be extremely emotional to see those events of your life being depicted on screen especially if they did a good job and you actually were getting flashbacks to those times or something like that. big eyes currently holds an approval rating of 72% on rotten tomatoes with a critical consensus that reads well acted thought provoking and a refreshing change of pace for Tim Burton big eyes works both as a biopic and as a timelessly relevant piece of social commentary Amy Adams went on to win a Golden Globe for her performance in the category of best actress in a comedy or musical which was actually her second consecutive Golden Globe win in that category with her previous win coming from the 2013 film American Hustle

ASHLEY: would you say this movie was a comedy it does not sound funny

REMI: the Golden Globes is notorious for miscategorizing films as comedies because I think they just have too many movies in the drama department so they sometimes have movies that are more serious put into the comedy department I would not call this movie a comedy it has some funny moments but I wouldn't call it a comedy maybe a dark comedy but even that it's stretching there aren't really jokes Adams was also nominated for a BAFTA for best actress in a leading role Christoff Waltz was additionally nominated for a Golden Globe for his performance along with Lana Del Rey who received a nomination for the film's title song big eyes after the film's release sales of Margaret's Keene's paintings skyrocketed with even her smaller paintings going for around $8,500 a piece good for her she deserves it and that was Tim Burton's big eyes a very interesting story that I feel like a most people who have seen the movie did not know about beforehand

ASHLEY: well with that are we ready to hear the true story of this Keene art saga

REMI: I am so ready!

ASHLEY: Margaret Hawkins was born in Nashville Tennessee on September 15th 1927 she was always reluctant to disclose personal details about her life but what we do know about her childhood is that her inner ear drum was permanently damaged from a mastoid infection at age two unlike Al Capone's son who had the same infection and went deaf in his ear Margaret just lost a lot of her hearing so as a child she would look at people's lips and eyes when she was speaking to them she along with her younger brother David were raised in the Methodist Church which likely contributed to her lifelong interest in spirituality although she grew up during the Great Depression her father comfortably supported the family through his work as an insurance agent she described herself as a shy and inquisitive child who always loved to paint and draw her parents were supportive of her artistic ability and enrolled her in evening art classes in elementary school painting became an emotional outlet for Margaret as well as a source of joy and gratification she spent her teenage years studying at the Watkins Art Institute and was selling her drawings to other students by the time she started high school after she graduated she enrolled in New York's Traffigan School of Design and started working in afactory hand painting baby furniture after the factory went bankrupt she earned money painting neck ties they used to hand paint neck ties I guess that's what I saw that it was she painted these ties I didn't realize that either that is crazy Margaret met her first husband Frank Ulbrich in the late 1940s Jane was born shortly thereafter and the family briefly lived in Ontario Canada before settling in California in the early 1950s it's unclear how long this marriage lasted but it was relatively brief due to domestic violence Margaret started paying portraits of young children. when Jane was a baby giving them larger eyes than normal she made the eyes the focus of her paintings as she thought they showed the inner person she spent years painting in relative obscurity until she met Walter Keane at a San Francisco art festival in the spring of 1954 while she was showing her big eye paintings portraits of children with eyes so large that they seem to be staring at you regardless of where you stood

REMI: has Margaret ever revealed why her children have such dilated pupils like most of their eyes are black and I've seen a lot of art pieces where people may have big eyes but you can see the colorful part and she chooses to really dilate the pupils and have the eyes almost appear entirely black

ASHLEY: as she said why she does that I think that might be become clear shortly so hold off on that question okay I will I'll hold tight over here Walter Keane was born in Lincoln Nebraska on October 7th 1915 similar to Margaret Walter rarely spoke about his early life and not much of what he did later share in his odd autobiography was founded as few people backed up his claims what does seem to be true is he had nine brothers and sisters and four paternal half siblings due to this large family Walter said he was rather shy withdrawn and starved for attention which I imagine with like 15 kids or whatever in the household his family didn't seem to fare as well as Margaret during the Great Depression but he had fond memories of large Sunday galleries at his grandparents' house where his father brought home brew he made during prohibition although his father was employed at General Motors and value business over artistic expression his mother's side of the family was filled with poets writers and painters who encouraged Walter's love of art after completing primary school. Walter supported himself by selling shoes and moved to LA seeking a better life for himself at age 20 although he claimed he attended UC Berkeley there was no record of his enrollment he actually went to LA City College before moving to Berkeley where he met his first wife Barbara Ingraham they married. in June 1941 and started a small real estate business as they were both brokers where they focused on renovating and selling homes

REMI: so the real estate thing had something to do with him and his ex-wife?

ASHLEY: she was from Berkeley so she had a lot of ties and yeah they both were licensed in real estate so they created this business together okay so he was covering it up to try and cover up the fact that he had a wife and family previously I'm assuming that would make sense in the movie in reality Margaret was well aware of this past marriage and daughter their business prospered over the next three years but Walter felt unfulfilled quit the real estate business and decided to devote his life to art he claimed this decision was based on being overworked and a quote frustrated urge to paint both of which cause large pain for ulcers the couple moved to Paris in the mid-1940s where Walter studied at two art institutes and Barbara explored dress design and took cooking classes their daughter Susan was born either right before or right after the international move this is where the ability to distinguish between fact and fiction gets challenging per Walter's grandiose and disorganized autobiography he claimed he stayed in Europe after Barbara returned to the states while in Europe alone he mentioned several affairs with women from Paris Hong Kong and Japan that he met while trying to perfect his painting style he also claimed to spend some time in Germany where he was moved by quote frightened abuse and neglected world war two orphans he claimed these children became the source of the big eye paintings as the reality of the world's cruelty made him realize he needed to alert everyone to these suffering children overall it's not really clear if Walter actually started to believe the web of lies he spun

REMI: I just had a thought and it's pretty ridiculous and it would change a lot of the truth of the story but I kind of think it would be neat if they had changed it in the movie to him studying painting in Germany and that's why he had a German accent what he was saying he was from Germany and then later in the film it would turn out he is not even German I know that's really manipulating facts but I think that would be a crazier reveal than turning out he had never been to France if you're gonna lie go big I guess

ASHLEY: it wouldn't completely change facts because in all actuality the keens were in Europe and possibly they did both live in Paris and Germany for brief periods of time oh I had no idea all right continue I'm sorry for interrupting but they returned to California together not separately in 1950 shortly after they created an educational toy business called Susie Keane puppeteens the focus was to teach children French through handmade puppets records and books some of the puppets reportedly sold at a few high-end stores like saxford avenue but it didn't last long

REMI: I have a soft spot for puppets and I love the name of her puppeting shop

ASHLEY: yeah it's a cute a cute one it's named after their daughter their whole goal was to teach young kids French they lived in France so it's cute cute little French puppets I'm digging it I like it Walters obsession with art cause friction in the marriage as it didn't mesh with the academic career barber pursued shortly after they divorced in 1952 she became the head of the dress design department at UC Berkeley while Walter closed the puppet and real estate business to solely focus on painting even though he was never really any good when Walter and Margaret met in the spring of 1954 they were likely drawn to each other as they were in similar situations both had marriages that had recently gone sour were raising two young daughters although Barbara had primary custody of Susan and shared a passion for art they wed in Hawaii in 1955 by all accounts the first few years of their marriage were filled with love and happiness Margaret seemed to be the primary breadwinner for the family earning money by selling street portraits to LA tourists the first sign of things to come happened two years into their marriage you see when the couple first met at that art show Walter was selling those sophisticated street portraits of Paris he claimed to have painted whenever he couldn't reproduce his work for her he claimed it was because he was rusty as he hadn't painted in a while two years into the marriage Margaret found a box full of the same street scenes signed by a different artist at the back of the closet one confronted Walter claimed the paintings were done by his art teacher but continued to assert anything with his signature was actually his work since it was pretty obvious he was lying he asked Margaret to teach him to paint but blamed her when he was unable to produce anything that came even close to marketable the gaslighting begins the most he was ever able to do was paint a little bit of the backgrounds of Margaret's portraits or help pick out colors nonetheless a small local publication ran a brief feature on the Keanes in 1957 in this article Walter was described as a landscape painter while Margaret was credited for her skilled portraits Walter first took credit for Margaret's big eye paintings at a Manhattan outdoor art show in 1957 in early 1958 he arranged to have her work hung at one of the hottest clubs in North Beach in exchange for a monthly fee the deal wouldn't last long though as he was involved in a drunken dispute with the owner of the club and pulled the painting shortly after his arrest to cut out the middle man Walter decided to open the keen gallery to sell art directly to the public Margaret's paintings were priced as low as $20 which is about $215 today and when money was tight the couple bartered to ensure the bills were paid Walter put his business smarts to work while promoting the gallery over the next few years he displayed Margaret's art claiming it as his own unbeknownst to her by handing out flyers and hanging them on telephone poles and at community art festivals hotels nightclubs and other small galleries to gain exposure this street route style campaign was a success people were drawn to the big eye paintings and started taking down the flyers faster than Walter could hang them many even went to the gallery asking for one causing Walter to start charging a couple of dollars for them it wasn't long before sales of the gallery surged this is a very very smart move by Walter

REMI: as much as i detest this man this was brilliant for him to start doing this

ASHLEY: he was really out there marketing this work day and night and when he saw a way to make money he capitalized on it and would price things affordably so everyone could buy it sure it's not a lot to charge two dollars for a piece but if everyone in america is buying your art that two dollars is going to add up way faster than pricing things at a price point that's not affordable to the average american Walter was a hustler through and through the increased sales gave Walter an idea that showed his marketing skills charisma and ability to cultivate business connections in addition to selling portraits in the keen gallery he started to seek mass production opportunities by converting the paintings into lithographs miniature drawings postcards collectible plates greeting cars and posters the decision to mass market the paintings was based on his belief that quality art should be affordable for the average american not just wealthy collectors and if he hadn't done it someone else would have done it eventually for the first time art was moved out of the typical gallery format to tourist shops and popular marketplaces by the late 1950s the Keane gallery was drawing thousands of visitors a day Walter capitalized on the developing big eye craze by returning to new york to hold an art show largely on his own he made sure the event was highly publicized he took out ad space and newspapers mailed 3000 invites to a champagne opening hung up posters announcing the event all over the city and even appeared as a guest on NBC's to day show hosted by television personality Dave Garroway the art show was a huge success as everything was sold within a few days after the success of the new york show articles about the Keane gallery spread from Bay Area publications to national newspapers while to was also a regular on the talk show circuit even appearing on the jack par show remade you remember someone who was a frequent gas on the jack par show?

REMI: wasn't that our old friend Truman Capote ?

ASHLEY: sure was! these television appearances gained him a few celebrity admirers and a larger fan base when market was with him during these appearances she remained silent when he took all the credit for her big eye paintings she would later say it was torturous to not intervene and tell the world the truth but she initially stayed quiet because Walter pitched it as a sales gimmick and she was just happy her work was being seen plus she actually was making a name for herself as a skilled portrait in 1959 she painted portraits for the de paunt family connection number five later in her career actors Natalie Wood Jerry Lewis and Joan Crawford also commissioned paintings Joan Crawford was so in love with the big eye paintings that she featured several in the movie whatever happened to baby Jane and used a portrait as a cover for her memoir they have a quote from her in the movie

REMI:  i can't remember exactly what it was but it did convey what a big fan Joan Crawford was of these paintings

ASHLEY: she loved them we still haven't watched whatever happened to baby Jane yet and i still do so if we ever do i am going to keep an eye out for these big eye paintings because there's like apparently two or three in there

REMI: the only one I can think of off the top of my head is I think there was a big eyes painting in Adam's family values when wednesday Adams and pugsley and the other little nerdy boy are sent to the happy timeout cabin as punishment i'm pretty sure there is a margarit keen painting in the back of the happy timeout cabin. i could say that ironically because the children do not often look happy in these paintings

ASHLEY: the big eye craze really started to take off around 1961 when Walter opened a second king gallery in new york where original pieces were selling for thousands of dollars before we continue i want to talk a little bit about why the big eye craze overtook the nation prior to the early to mid-sixties abstract expressionism characterized by artists like jackson polych who used these really exaggerated brushstrokes all over the canvas

REMI: splatter art! basically it's the art you think of when it's just a bunch of splashes on a big canvas that's jackson polych

ASHLEY: and modernist approaches made popular by artists like salvo door dolly and pacasso were the primary artistic modality

REMI: the Jason schwartzman seen in the movie with him as an art dealer his art gallery exclusively is showing works that are similar to jackson polych where they aren't really of images per se they're more just splatterings of color and that's why he is uninterested in any of Walter's peresian street corners or margarits big eyes

ASHLEY: pop art started to emerge in the mid to late 1950s as a form of rebellion against the typical art forms that were being taught and marketed as they were thought to not represent the real world this led to artists such as andi warhol to begin experimenting with styles that were more funky and took inspiration from commercial culture the second reason why big eye craze took off is americans were in this post world war two economic boom so more families than ever had disposable income third art was becoming more available to consumers as hundreds of galleries were popping up all over the country fourth many were drawn to the image of big eye tearful children because it did spark an emotional reaction unlike the more modernist abstract art forms that were popular at the time

REMI: there is something eerily appealing about the paintings i can't put my finger on it but they're creepy yet captivating paintings

ASHLEY: lastly Walters magnetic personality and marking talents absolutely played a role in the keenes immense success now although the general public pop artists and several celebrities fell in love with the big-eyed paintings that made the Keane's a household name art critics enthusiasts and academics deemed the work formulaic unrefined and mediocre at best one of the things that

REMI: Tim Burton said that drew him to this story specifically was he related very heavily to the idea of an artist whose work was embraced by the general public but panned by critics because a lot of his movies are like that

ASHLEY: yeah that's exactly how the big eye craze was everyone loved it the audience loved it but critics hated it and deemed as kitch from 1961 to 1964 the keens appeared to be the ideal family they lived in a small scenic town about 30 miles from sam fran with their four poodles margaret was depicted as the perfect housewife raising jane and susan when she was visiting running the household supporting her husband and you know just paint an inner spare time waltor was one of the most popular artists in the country and could often be seen partying with celebs what was actually happening behind closed doors was far from a fairy tale while Walter was partying it up in the big city margaret was slaving away painting big-eyed tearful children in the sometimes locked basement studio Walter used physical violence and death threats against margaret and jane to ensure she didn't reveal the ruse or refuse to paint altogether which is so low that he threatened to kill her and also a stepdaughter although he claimed the big-eyed children were symbols of what was wrong with the world and painted to share his desire for peace and to remind people that future lies with the children a very PR quote by waltor margaret later said her painting started to depict tearful children as they reflected her level of unhappiness so that's why i think maybe that people were so big because it's sadder to have big eyes that are all black than ones that are like a captivating like hazel blue green like sad puppy dog eyes yeah so it's kind of sad that she like perfected this style and it started out of love for her daughter and it just grew to be the symbol of her despair

REMI: as an artist myself i've been painting and drawing ever since i was a little kid and i was very introverted as a child painting an art and that sort of thing as i'm sure it is with musicians as well is a very comforting way to express yourself even when you are unable to so i can relate to her in that regard

ASHLEY: in addition to being grandiose volatile and controlling waltor was an angry drunk it wasn't unusual for him to be cut off or asked to leave a bar as his level of intoxication increase and the night progressed after a few bar brawls he even briefly hired a bodyguard to follow him around on his drinking sprees which is just such a drastic set to take by 1964 the keens were making millions of dollars a year as big-eyed children could be found on lithographs and department store sales bins to art museums around the world the big-eyed designs were also available in figurines needle points and paint by numbers that has brought a toy company even gotten touched with Walter with plans to release a big-eyed doll but since Walter didn't want to sell his name hasbro released suzy no name without giving credit to the keens in 1965

REMI: i need to look up a picture of suzy no name really quick just so i can see what this doll looked like

ASHLEY: yes look it up

REMI: ...it is terrifying! oh my god! this is the creepiest fucking doll i have ever seen in my entire life! why would they make this!! this is haunting! this is something that would keep a child up for days! this is horrific!! oh my god!!!

ASHLEY: i think the general public agreed with you because the toy failed to sell

REMI: why is little misnowname only wearing a sack she just wears a potato sack as her outfit and she's crying with gigantic big eyes why just why why would anyone want this !!!

ASHLEY: here is the description that was placed in the ad of JC penny little nimes no name a pathetic little girl looking for a name a home a little mother to love and care for her her many unusual features her straggly rooted hair the perpetual tear in her eye her pleading look her patched and ragged cotton burlap dress all are made to inspire hours of creative motherly play she's 15 inches tall and just right to cuddle made of contoured vinyl and polyethylene plastic

REMI: i am also looking at an ad for little miss no name and at the top it just says please take me home size little miss no name by hasbro she has no fancy clothes but with a tear she'll let you know she needs your love for her to grow...

ASHLEY: yeah it's super dark so it's no wonder that kids were not interested in playing with these depressing dolls those are supposed to make you happy not sad

REMI: it is a sad little homeless orphan girl that is what this doll is like a horrifically sad street orphan. this is insane... i can't believe anyone thought this would be a good idea

ASHLEY: imitators also capitalize on the big eye craze creating paintings of animals celebrities and go-go dancers with larger than life eyes the keens also set up an organization that provided funding to art schools in america europe and japan probably the one admiral thing that water keene did and i'm just going to speculate that margarit had something to do with that organization a painting featuring hundreds of big-eyed children titled tomorrow forever was even chosen as the theme for the pavilion of the hall of education at the 1964 world's fair in new york but the submission was withdrawn three days later due to the negative reception from the media so it wasn't like keens temper outbursts that caused them to take the painting away the media thought it was ridiculous that this painting would be the theme of the world's fair

REMI: well Walter tried to get his wife to paint a commercial product that wasn't her idea something that water felt that mass people would love and as a result it came out looking and feeling very hollow and that happens when you're forced to do something like that

ASHLEY: thirty seven-year-old margarit quietly separated from water in 1964 the separation was announced to the public in a six-page life magazine spread in august 1965 the split was described as amicable with margarit admiring water genius but saying he was difficult to live with conversely Walter called margarit the greatest female painter alive a few months after the article was published the keen case was heard in a california court margarit testified she was taken a divorce because water was jealous critical and unpleasant water didn't contest the divorce hearing and skipped it all together prior to the hearing water decided on a business agreement he would continue to promote the paintings and send margarit a percentage of monthly profits so he didn't make her sign over the art that she had already made but he was like we're just gonna keep what we got going going all mail you a check

REMI: i'm assuming this was changed to further emphasize what a piece of shit water is and not give him even a slightly redeeming quality of splitting the profits

ASHLEY: once the divorce was granted margarit waived additional financial support outside of this pre-arranged agreement the public was just sure that the formal couple would remain friends and business partners margarit and jane moved to hawaii as soon as the divorce was finalized to get away from water margarit initially tried to maintain their business deal but she was depressed and found it hard to paint nonetheless she continued to mail water paintings because she was worried about what he would do if she didn't go through with their plan her reduced output didn't matter the big guys continue to sell but we're losing their hold on the public as the market was now oversaturated walters alcoholism also impacted his ability to run the business he could no longer keep up with the management of the galleries negotiation of licensing deals press appearances and publicity circuits it's hard to function when you are drunk all the time especially if you're getting to the point of drunkenness that you need a bodyguard to make sure you're not fighting people i think that's signs of a serious problem yes margarit's mental state improved after she met and married dan maguire in early 1966 dan was a sports journalist who previously worked as the public director for the san francisco 49ers and as a foreign correspondent during world war two unlike water he was extremely supportive and kind they remained married by the time of his death in 1983 which is sad they didn't have that much long together he died early in december 1966 margarit filed a federal lawsuit asking the court to examine walters business records as he had not sent her a single penny since their divorce was finalized in may 1967 walter told the press he was robbed by two men who threatened to kill him unless he gave them all the money in his home he alleged the robbers made out with three thousand dollars in cash and ten thousand dollars with a vart and accused margarit of being behind the heist as only she and the safe installer knew he had lard sums of money in the home this is what it took for margarit to decide it was time to tell the world the truth about the big eye paintings i am tired of your bullshit and i've had enough about time margarit margarit visited san francisco to finalize sales on a lithograph series in october 1970 while there she revealed to her reporter from the san francisco examiner that walter was a fraud as she was the big eye artist so this is even better in the movie because she didn't do this in hawaii she went back to his own turf to make this big statement

REMI: it seems like a lot of the changes were made just to streamline the story but i do like the fact that she went back to do it more closer to home for him

ASHLEY: to prove her claims she even challenged walter to a paint off at union square and she went and was waiting for him but he's surprisingly didn't show the initial interview and challenge were covered by life magazine and several newspapers all of which officially declared margarit the undisputed creator of big eye art walter tried to dispute the claims by saying margarit's challenge was ridiculous when that didn't work he left the country with his new wife jone probably in hopes that things would just blow over when walter was a broad margarit spent the next several years painting and experimenting with different religious and spiritual teachings including occult palm reading and astrology i believe in numerology also she just kind of dabbled in everything a little bit of this little bit of that she didn't find what she was searching for until two jehovah witnesses knocked on her door her daughter jane was drawn to the religion immediately even opting to become a missionary and both were baptized into the church in 1972 her daughter jane as well because in the movie her daughter jane seems a little skeptical of the whole thing no how it's described in the book i read about this is jane was actually the one that was really gung ho on it and margarit was a little more hesitant she was still like into the religion but she was kind of trekking more slowly probably because she'd cycled through all these spiritual teachings before but jane was like love this work and burden and so she did

REMI: interesting okay

ASHLEY: margarit later credited her new found faith for helping her quit smoking and be more outgoing her art which was displayed in her own gallery was also impacted as the big eye portrait started to smile. meanwhile Walter's alcoholism grew he tried to open an international gallery but never got it off the ground his second daughter shong tall was born in 1973 followed by his son sasha in 1974 he came back to the state settling in la hoia in their early 1980s his alcoholism financial troubles and loneliness worsened after jone left him and moved the children to canada a typical day started with him eating a small breakfast writing letters to his children and spending the afternoon at the bar he would head at home to have a quick nap shower and lunch before going back to the bar until closing he finally decided it was time to get sober after he walked into a brick wall on his way home from the bar in late 1981

REMI: that was the tipping point for this guy! not hiring a bodyguard to keep a mount of fights because of his rage drinking him walking into a wall that's what did it for this guy!?!

ASHLEY: what I'm thinking is that him walking into this wall like he was really hurt so it took him being injured to decide to clean up it didn't take him hurting other people he doesn't really care about punching a random person when he's blackout drunk but he cares about being in his own physical pain 

REMI: so it's all just selfishness

ASHLEY: Walter's newfound sobriety led him to feeling misunderstood and unfairly marginalized by the art world as a result he decided to get to work on his memoir and enrolled in writing classes at UC San Diego he came across his angry paranoid and unhinged whenever he spoke about Margaret even accusing her of being involved with art fraudsters to take credit for and steal his work

REMI: sort of like me when i talk about Ryan Reynolds

ASHLEY: yeah that's how i imagine his frustration comes across an eight year legal battle began on April 16th 1982 when Walter filed a 1.5 million copyright infringement suit in Santa Clara County over a July 11th 1981 article in the peninsial at times tribune in which Margaret claimed ownership of the big eyes Walter did a couple interviews for TV and newspapers and although some of the profiles were positive they weren't altogether flattering despite his efforts to gain public support the judge dismissed this suit with prejudice meaning it could not be refiled or reopened later in February 1984 in July 1984 he told a reporter from USA today that Margaret tried to take credit for the big eye paintings because she thought he was dead. i don't know how she could think he was dead because he literally just sued her a couple months prior but anyway in response she filed a federal lawsuit for libel against the publisher of USA today and another against Walter for defamation and malicious prosecution the later of what she argued was because he had no merit to file the lawsuit against her in 1982 so this is the upcoming trial that i think i have been waiting for okay i thought we had passed it and we didn't get that seen okay continue Walter then counter sued for copyright infringement yet again the trial started on May 6th 1986 and marked the first time the couple saw each other in over 20 years Walter tried to postpone the trial as his lawyer withdrew from the case a month prior but his request was granted

REMI: in the movie Walter is under the assumption that the attorney that is representing the newspaper is also representing him so the second that the newspaper is dismissed the attorney and everyone just get up and leave and he's just stuck there alone sort of a visual gag i guess

ASHLEY: yeah and that's kind of funnier margaret's defense team laid out their case first they gave a well organized presentation showing at least a dozen big eye drawings done by margaret before she met Walter during her testimony she explained that she always painted oversized eyes and developed her style while painting her young daughter she spoke about how the deep and happiness she felt while married to Walter was the motivation for the tearful children that became so popular 20 years prior she also admitted to playing along with the public deception about who the actual artist was because he repeatedly threatened to kill her and Jane if she broke her silence. Jane's testimony backed up these claims as she spoke about the abuse and threats she was subjected to as a young girl to make matters worse for Walter the keen's former secretary testified that margaret once told her Walter threatened to burn their house down and kill her if she tried to leave him the presentation ended with exhibit 224 a big eye painting margaret spent 53 minutes reproducing on court when Walter was ordered to do the same he claimed a sore shoulder prevented him from doing so while also remarking that margaret could reproduce anything even work that wasn't her own 13 days into the trial the attorneys representing USA today submitted a motion for a directed verdict a judicial order arguing that a jury would be unable to render a verdict against them since margaret was a public figure the standard for proving libel was high as the judge agreed she did not prove USA today had malice when they published the interview with Walter the lawsuit against them was dismissed leaving Walter alone at the defense table without legal representation so it did happen okay i'm really glad that actually did check out this didn't deter Walter as he opted to represent himself for the rest of the trial always a poor decision the judge repeatedly lectured him on proper courtroom conduct and called him vitraulic which means full of violent hate and anger

REMI: in the movie when Walter is questioning himself he is running back and forth between pretending to be a lawyer and then he'll run back up to the place where he's supposed to be sitting by the judge and then I'll answer the question then run back out ask another question as the lawyer then run back did he do this fingers crossed i'm doubting it but fingers crossed?

ASHLEY: no when people are representing themselves they still have like an appointed lawyer who's supposed to be sitting next to you for like advice if you need it so i think in this situation when someone is going pro-seg which means they're representing themselves they have that lawyer who's just kind of supposed to be there helping out if you need it be the one to ask you the questions like you have written

REMI: darn it i was really hoping that would check out

ASHLEY: Walter made numerous outlandish accusations against Margaret involving sexual indiscretions which wasn't interesting tactic as he was a known womanizer he called a long-term friend to the stand who testified that he believed Walter painted big eyes long before he met Margaret but on cross examination he admitted he actually never witnessed his friend paint them in the end the judge threw out Walter's counter suit as he submitted no credible evidence that Margaret reproduced any of his paintings she also won her suit against him and was awarded four million dollars in damages probably and surprisingly Walter filed for bankruptcy on May 29 1987 listing his total assets at five thousand seven hundred dollars in January 1989 an appellate court held the defamation verdict but determined the four million dollar award was excessive although Margaret was given the opportunity to initiate another trial to re-determine what she was owed she declined to do so she made this decision as she didn't care about the money she just wanted to legally and publicly establish that she did the paintings she also had few financial worries as her art sales were generating a comfortable income Walter was charged with contempt of court and bankruptcy court for attempting to conceal his assets on November 3rd 1988 although he was found guilty of the charge on June 4 1990 he was not sentenced to prison of no to psychiatrist testify that he had a paranoid delusional disorder possibly brought on or worsened by long term alcohol abuse I don't think this guy has a delusional disorder I think this guy is a straight up narcissist

REMI: he has an ego disorder

ASHLEY: his attorney urged him to sign an agreement preventing both parties from pursuing further litigation against each other a form he signed under protest all legal claims against and made by Walter were vacated in September 1991 putting an end to the keen courtroom saga Walter spent the next few years in La Jolla promoting his self-published memoir it was essentially a bizarre grandiose and at times improbable retelling of his life he also described Margaret as talentless unstable and sex grazed 

REMI: I'm pretty sure he is referring to himself in those terms

ASHLEY: yeah it sounds like whenever he is talking about Margaret he is really projecting onto her his worst traits he lived a low profile life still claiming to be the big-eye artist until he died from lung and kidney disease at age 85 on December 27 2000 Margaret and Jane moved to Napa County in 1991 the keen eyes gallery was opened in San Francisco in 1992 and was in immediate success she continued to focus on ensuring art was accessible to everyone in addition to low cost posters and cards original paintings were priced between two to fifteen thousand dollars two media events sparked increased interest in Margaret's big eyes the first was around the time cartoon network air-to-television show featuring three young bright eyed child crime fighters...

REMI: whaaaaaat?! the Powerpuff girls are based around Margaret Keane's art?! that makes a ton of sense. I can't believe I didn't put that together

ASHLEY: that's right the powerpuff girls animator Craig McCracken publicly said the look of the characters was inspired by Margaret Keane the kindergarten teacher on the show was even called Mrs Keane after her

REMI: I cannot believe I didn't think of this wow that makes so much sense I'm never gonna be able to unsee that now

ASHLEY: and as we had already mentioned the second event that piqued public interest in her art was the release of Tim Burns big eyes of course I think that happens when anyone has a movie based around your life your work always sells a bit more Margaret was awarded a lifetime achievement award at the LA Art Show in 2018 she continued to paint up and sell her death from Hartfailer at age 94 on June 26 2002 so rather recently she lived a full life though

REMI: I'm happy to hear that she lived a full long life and seems like she died a happy woman in the end

ASHLEY: and the Keane's gallery is still open to this day that is awesome and that is the true story behind Tim Burton's big eyes

REMI:  I liked it I think it is rare that we get a story that ends up with a pretty happy ending I mean I'm glad that it all worked out for Margaret in the end and you really root for her she is an underdog going through all this bullshit with all these crappy husbands in the beginning and she is able to find her voice and I think it is a very interesting inspiring artistic story what do you think Ashley?

ASHLEY: yeah and it's one where the villain actually got his come-up ends which I feel like doesn't happen as much as it should in real life compared to the film and television industry and this is not the type of villain that some people root for like an al capone type this guy is just a pathetic despicable scumbag of a person and I am frankly glad he died miserable and alone with nothing and just the fact that Margaret was able to like take control again of her art like one of my favorites is when she found this religion and is happy in Hawaii how she said the big eyes start to smile again so it kind of went from her artistic modality depicting happiness and love to utter despair to hope

REMI: well that brings us to our rating portion of our program if this is your first episode with us I'll give you a quick rundown of how it works every week we take a movie and we will pass judgment on it it gets a guilty verdict if the movie has no bearing to the real story and is not similar at all and is basically just inspired by the events but isn't really the true events mistrial which means they got some stuff right but not everything and the coveted not guilty verdict which means everything is almost exactly as it happened in reality and Ashley I will let you go first on this one...

ASHLEY:  I was debating in my mind up until the end on this but what is your grueling on this big eyes oh I think no doubt Tim Burton gets a not guilty verdict I think the whole saga of how this big eye craze and I don't even know what to call it because it's not even plagiarism I guess copyright infringement went down seems to be exactly how it went down I also really liked the little touches he put in there like how he talked about Margaret like talking about numerology or getting that book from the store that was like spiritual based so there was a lot of little nods like that there and some of the their big details I guess but they're like smaller to the overall story like them going to Hawaii to get married this tomorrow land picture that was supposed to be at the world's fair the art critics really bashing on the keens pretty consistently was all true to real life events the small things that were changed were inconsequential to the story and done to really highlight the manipulative gaslighting behavior of this horrible man that put this woman through hell for decades

REMI: I agree with you Ashley and it is nice to start off our new season with two not guilty verdicts I know we disagreed on the season finale last time which is a rarity but I agree I think that Tim Burton did a great job of condensing and streamlining the story while still keeping the true essence and all the facts for you to see I think it was done very well I was on the fence up until the end with the trial involving the painting if there was never a trial where they had a paint off then this would have gotten a guilty verdict in my mind or not a guilty but probably more of a mistrial because it still did get a lot but that was the clencher for me the fact that that truly happened and I think Christoff Waltz and Amy Adams and Tim Burton all did a magnificent job of bringing this woman's story to the big screen

ASHLEY: and the writers who wrote this screenplay they clearly did their homework

REMI:  yes I want to check out some of their other films as well I need to scroll through their IMDB and look at their full screenwriting filmography maybe they've directed something that we haven't seen we're trying to check out movies we haven't heard of lately 

ASHLEY: well that concludes our season three premiere episode Remy what do we have in store next week spoiler alert to you all it's a doozy

REMI: you took the words right out of my mouth it's a big one we are doing or tackling or overcoming the cinematic experience of killers of the flower moon the three and a half hour martin scorsese Leonardo da caprio robbertoneuro

ASHLEY: and lily gladstone!

 REMI: how could I forget lily oscar nominee who would have gotten it any other year I think I really feel she had a strong performance I've seen this movie once I am buckling up for a long one because it takes quite a while for me to get through a two hour movie let alone a three and a half hour movie when I am taking notes and trying to look into everything so it's gonna be exciting fun and a lot of work for us

ASHLEY: for all of you who don't know killers of the flower moon is about the mass murder of people from the Osage tribe I believe is the name if that is incorrect I will correct us next week for sure but yes it's a three and a half hour movie, for me and it is a book that I don't think is like overly long but it's written by the same gentleman that did devil in the white city about h-homes which if any of you have read you know his writing style is dense and just chocked full with information so it's going to be a big one for both of us

REMI:  and we are very happy we are releasing these episodes every two weeks instead of one the additional time is so helpful and we thank you all so much for sticking with us we promise the episodes will have more details more facts more information more true crime more film facts all that good stuff moving forward

ASHLEY: we still have an instagram a tiktok all that fun stuff at criminal adaptations so please check us out if you want to see some photos of the real life people compared to their actor counterparts in the film we have a lot of those and we have a bunch of true crime and film facts on tiktok for you guys if you're interested if you're also interested please leave us a five star review and we will read it on the show and in the meantime we will see you next week

REMI: court is adjourned