American Made

For our two-part season finale, we are unpacking movies about two men who smuggled cocaine for the Medellin Cartel into the states, largely by air. In our second episode, we dive into the thrilling world of Doug Liman’s American Made (2017) and the real-life story of Barry Seal, the infamous pilot turned drug smuggler turned DEA informant. We break down how the movie, starring Tom Cruise, dramatizes Seal’s high-flying exploits, comparing Hollywood’s version to the actual events. Did Seal really work for the CIA, DEA, and Medellin cartel simultaneously? How accurate is the portrayal of his dangerous double life? Tune in now to find out.

Primary Sources:
Hahn, Del. Smuggler’s End: The Life and Death of Barry Seal. Pelican Publishing Company (2016).
Special Report: Murder of a Witness – The Barry Seal Story

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Music: He_s Changing The Game by Darren-Curtis _ https___soundcloud.com_desperate-measurez_Music promoted by https___www.free-stock-music.com_Creative Commons _ Attribution 3.0 Unported License (CC BY 3.0)_https___creativecommons.org_licenses_by_3.0_deed.e

Chapters

• 0:13 True Crime Stories in American Made
• 10:55 Behind the Scenes of American Made
• 19:06 Covert CIA Missions and Medellin Cartel
• 29:01 The CIA and Cocaine Chronicles
• 35:39 The Rise and Fall of Barry
• 48:42 Barry Seal
• 58:30 Barry Seal
• 1:12:07 Undercover Surveillance on Barry Seal
• 1:17:52 Barry Seal and the Cartel Bust
• 1:32:34 Barry Seal's Legal Battles and Testimonies
• 1:44:22 The True Story of Barry Seal
• 1:54:08 Film Adaptation Critiques and Future Plans
• 2:02:17 Chicago Musical Review and Recommendations

Transcript

Ashley: 0:14

Welcome to Criminal Adaptations, the show where we take a look at some of your favorite movies and the true crime stories that inspired them. I'm Ashley. I'm a clinical psychologist and forensic evaluator in the state of Oregon.

Remi: 0:27

And I'm Remy. I spent over a decade working in the film and television industry in Los Angeles, california, and welcome back everybody for our season three finale. Thank you all so much for joining us and hanging in there for the past three seasons, which is crazy to me. How are you doing today, ashley?

Ashley: 0:48

I'm doing good. We are recording the morning of Thanksgiving, so so much to be thankful for this year that a bit later, and tomorrow is actually my birthday.

Remi: 1:12

So season finale, Thanksgiving and birthday all in the next 48 hours, so really exciting times we're living in huh, but I digress. What are we talking about today, Ashley?

Ashley: 1:23

Today we are talking about American Made, the story inspired by pilot Barry Seale, starring Tom Cruise.

Remi: 1:33

Had you ever heard of this film before?

Ashley: 1:36

I saw this film once. As usual, I find myself saying this a lot. It was a long time ago and I don't remember anything about it, but I do remember enjoying it when I watched it and I think I was aware at the time that it was based on a true story. I think it says that at the beginning, but I knew nothing about the real Barry Seale.

Remi: 1:58

I did see this as well a long time ago. I think I got a screener or something. I didn't see it in theaters. I do remember that. But my memory must not be too great, because every time I think back on this I think of a scene with Tom Cruise in an airplane and he's flying around the back of it. But that's from the movie the Mummy, which actually came out the same year as this one. So I think I have my wires crossed on which movie I'm actually remembering. But I have seen this one. It just didn't leave much of a impression on me, I guess.

Remi: 2:26

But what about Tom Cruise. Are you a Tom Cruise fan? This is probably the first time and I think we have one other Tom Cruise movie in the future we will be covering. But what are your thoughts on Mr Cruise and his illustrious career?

Ashley: 2:41

Yeah, the movie we're going to be talking about next season A Few Good Men, I think is more of my style of Tom Cruise. I really like his older stuff, when he was still trying a lot of new things and doing really dramatic roles. Now I feel like he just is an action star and he's perfectly content with just being an action star. I don't like any of the Mission Impossibles. I did not like the remake of the Mummy, or I guess not the remake. The second Top Gun was fine, but his stuff like Jerry Maguire and Rain man and Interview with a Vampire those are all so good and I just miss him going for movies like that.

Remi: 3:29

I definitely agree. I think Tom Cruise is a good actor when he applies himself, but he's kind of relegated himself to glorified stuntman at this point in his career. But when I was doing my research for this film it had me wondering a lot about Tom Cruise's preparation for A Few.

Remi: 3:48

Good Men Because primarily for this one. It seems like all of his prep was learning to fly different planes. I don't think he did a lot of research into the real-life Barry Seal, but I think younger Tom Cruise would have. So I'm curious if A Few Good Men Tom Cruise did more research and actually tried to make the character closer to the real life counterpart rather than just being Tom Cruise. But time will tell on that one.

Ashley: 4:16

We all know Tom Cruise loves a good airplane, so it's unsurprising he wanted to do all the flying for this movie.

Remi: 4:24

There is going to be a lot of airplane talk in this episode. Neither one of us know a ton about planes or piloting or any of that sort of thing, but this was definitely a crash course in all of that sort of subject matter. But enough dilly-dallying. Should we jump on in to American Made Ashley?

Ashley: 4:44

Let's do it.

Remi: 5:00

American Made is a 2017 action comedy written by Gary Spinelli, directed by Doug Lyman and starring Tom Cruise, domhnall Gleeson, sarah Wright, alejandro Eta and Jesse Plemons. Jesse Plemons is almost not even worth mentioning in this film. I think he has maybe three or four lines and possibly two minutes of screen time. It is really a waste of Plemons.

Ashley: 5:17

This is before. I think he really came into his own.

Remi: 5:21

This is another movie that reminded me of Killers of the Flower Moon, where I began thinking to myself should Jesse Plemons have played Barry?

Remi: 5:28

He seems like he would have done a really good job in that role and he physically resembles Barry more than Cruise does in my opinion Screenwriter Gary Spinelli first began working on American Made during the summer of 2013, and shared the following statement in the film's bonus features regarding his original inception of the project. I was looking for little hidden pieces of history, small stories that affected larger global events, and I came across the Mina story and I always wanted to do a gangster film. Goodfellas is one of my favorite movies and I was always on the hunt to try and find my version of that, and once I started researching CIA's involvement in Mina, the same name kept popping up. Was this Barry Seal? As soon as I found Barry, I knew I had a movie, and I will point out right now Mina Arkansas is what he is referring to when he says Mina, originally titled, mina Spinelli's script ended up being featured on the 2014 Blacklist as one of the best unproduced screenplays in all of Hollywood, until eventually finding its way into the hands of director Doug Liman, who had already made a name for himself with his previous films Swingers, the Bourne Identity and Edge of Tomorrow.

Remi: 6:44

I was actually a pretty big Doug Liman fan back in the day. My fandom has faded a bit in his later years, but he is probably one of the directors that did get me interested in film.

Remi: 6:54

To begin with, with his earlier works like Swingers and Go.

Ashley: 6:58

So fun fact, remy, this film was actually supposed to be titled Mina, or Mena, however you say it, but it got stalled in mid-October 2015 after Barry Seale's daughter from his first of three marriages actually sued Universal Pictures. In the suit, she claimed that Seale's third wife sold his story rights without court approval or consent from Seale's estate, and I think more so. What she was upset about was she claimed that the story contained factual inaccuracies that damaged Seal's overall persona. I think her biggest claims, she said, was that they falsely portrayed him as like a drunk and a reckless pilot. So for a couple years, the film was stalled and the lawsuit ended up being dismissed by the 2017 release date, and they changed the name from Mina to American Made.

Remi: 7:56

That is surprising to me because, based on this film, it seems like the filmmakers went out of their way to portray Barry in a positive light and not a negative light. I'll get into more examples when we're going through the film, but that is surprising to me. He does not use drugs in the movie, he does not drink in the movie and a big part of his motivation is taking care of his family. So it is strange to me that she would object to how he was portrayed, because in my opinion he's probably portrayed better than he actually was, but time will tell on that one. I do know they changed a lot, though. When Doug Lyman first read Spinelli's screenplay, he realized once he had gotten to the end, that he had been reading a story that he already knew. In fact, lyman had a personal connection to the events due to his father running the investigation into the Iran-Contra affair. Lyman had been well-versed in the events since his college days, but the thought of making the story into a film had never even once occurred to him and a personal note here I had heard of the Iran-Contra affair before, but never really could grasp what it was, until I did this podcast and really had to do a deep dive into it. Now I feel very well-versed in the Iran-Contra affair. Lyman has also admitted that he has a penchant for stories centered around anti-heroes and spies, and Spinelli's screenplay served as the perfect opportunity to combine both interests into a single project.

Remi: 9:28

Lyman had previously loved working with actor-turned-stuntman Tom Cruise on their 2014 film Edge of Tomorrow and thought it would be fun to cast Cruise as the lead role of Barry, since Barry Seal was literally the polar opposite of Cruise's character Maverick in the Top Gun films.

Remi: 9:45

So sort of as a reverse casting choice, I guess. Tickled by the idea, lyman sent Cruise the script and on January 14, 2015, it was officially announced that Tom Cruise and Doug Lyman would be re-teaming for their next project together. At the time of his casting, tom Cruise was 55 years old, while the real Barry Seal had been assassinated when he was only 46. Diego Luna, john Leguizamo, michael Pina and Pedro Pascal were all at one point considered for the role of Jorge Ochoa, before the part ultimately went to Alejandro Eta, who was primarily known for his work in video games. It does seem funny that they were considering all these really big named actors and then it went to kind of an unknown actor in the end, but I would have liked to see Michael Pena or John Leguizamo or Pedro Pascal in this role honestly.

Ashley: 10:38

I wonder if Pedro Pascal would have gotten it, if that would have impacted his casting for Narcos.

Remi: 10:45

Oh, that is a good point, possibly actually because he was playing the good guy on Narcos, right? He was not one of the cartel members on that show. Someday we will get to that, I'm sure. In the original screenplay for American Made, the character of Barry's wife, lucy, was written as little more than an accessory to the story, but director Doug Lyman pushed to give Lucy a more substantial role and insisted that her character be more fully fleshed out.

Remi: 11:11

Sarah Wright, who plays Lucy in American Made, is actually someone I remember working with back in 2008 on the film House Bunny, and she was very nice. She is also 21 years younger than her on-screen husband, tom Cruise. Doug Liman has a long history of creating strong, dynamic female characters, sometimes even surpassing their male counterparts by ensuring that every character is unique and compelling. This reputation was one of the many things that excited Sarah Wright about working on American Made. Wright also said that she felt a personal connection to Lucy, as they are both originally from the South, which allowed her to draw inspiration for her character from the strong Southern women she had grown up around.

Ashley: 11:54

Good for you, Doug Limeman. I like that.

Remi: 11:57

He does do that in a lot of his films, especially stuff with Tom Cruise. I'm noticing he likes to make Tom Cruise look foolish, like in Edge of Tomorrow. Emily Blunt is like the coolest, most badass character ever and Cruise is kind of a bumbling idiot the whole time. And I like the way that Lyman portrays females in his films.

Ashley: 12:16

But I bet Emily Blunt does not run in front of him, since Tom Cruise does not allow that.

Remi: 12:22

I don't think he ran in the movie at all. I don't think Tom Cruise lets other people run in his movies. That is Tom Cruise's thing. You will not take that away from him.

Ashley: 12:31

And for all of you who don't know what we're talking about, there's a little rumor out there that Tom Cruise has written in his contract or it's just kind of like an unspeakable thing that in any movie where he's running, if someone's running along with him, they are not allowed to run in front of him because he always has to be seen as the fastest.

Remi: 12:55

Little stuff like that that actors put into their contracts just strikes me as so insecure that it's hilarious Like dude who cares. But whatever makes you happy. Tom Doug Liman and Tom Cruise's shared passion for flying brought a unique authenticity to American Made. Nearly all of the aerial sequences in the film were shot practically with real planes and crews flying in the pilot's seat. Lyman admitted that he and crews were committed to making the flight scenes as real as possible, though they didn't initially grasp just how challenging that would be. In fact, lyman later described the shoot as one of the most difficult undertakings of his entire career, comparing the experience to essentially filming car chases, but with airplanes. I can only imagine how difficult that would be.

Remi: 13:38

Tom Cruise, a certified pilot himself, took his commitment to realism to another level by performing all of his own flight scenes. During filming. To prepare for a pivotal plane crash in the film, cruise trained extensively with four different aircrafts, deliberately crash landing each one to better understand the experience firsthand. In the end, the crash featured in the film was expertly piloted by Cruise himself.

Ashley: 14:04

This really is just a practice for Top Gun 2.

Remi: 14:08

I think he made this movie to play around with airplanes. In all honesty, I don't think he really cared about the story very much. I think he made this movie to play around with airplanes. In all honesty, I don't think he really cared about the story very much. I think this was his excuse to mess around with airplanes and learn how to fly some new stuff with his buddy Doug. But I will say, knowing that the flight sequences are all real does make it more impressive when you're watching a few of the scenes. Just knowing that oh, they actually did that, that does seem really challenging and difficult. It adds an appreciation to it, I guess. But it could have all been done with CGI very, very easily. For his role as Barry Seal, tom Cruise reportedly gained weight to better fit the character. Though Cruise and Seal are similar in stature, cruise is physically quite different from the real Barry Seal, who was an obese man weighing nearly 300 pounds.

Ashley: 14:57

Did he gain weight? I've seen clips of him recently in this and the cover. He does not look like he's gained weight.

Remi: 15:04

He looks exactly the same as he does in every movie. I don't think he gained any weight at all for this. I think that's bullshit. Doug Liman and Tom Cruise's passion for flying extended beyond shooting the film's scenes, as they often flew themselves to and from set using their own planes. Liman has also stated that the airplane featured in the film only made it to South America because Cruise had personally piloted it there. Cruise additionally flew the entire crew out to the rainforest in order to shoot several other scenes on location. During filming, tom Cruise, doug Liman and screenwriter Gary Spinelli all lived together in the house used for the movie's set. Though they all shared the house's chores, cruise kept a separate section of the refrigerator all to himself to avoid contamination from Lyman's junk food. A little weird, tom. The trio would spend their evenings reflecting on the day's work, brainstorming new ideas and pushing each other creatively. Cruise and Lyman also set up a flight simulator in the garage for a bit of after-hours fun before bedtime.

Ashley: 16:08

He's obsessed.

Remi: 16:09

The dude loves planes. If someone likes planes, they are really into planes. I've never met someone who was like kinda into planes. You are either all in or you're not in. Lyman has described American Made as a fun lie based on a true story, stating we're not making a biopic. Tom Cruise doesn't look like Barry Seale, but his character is inspired by the stories we learned about Barry. Contrary to last week's film Blow, none of the characters in American Made are ever seen consuming cocaine on screen, which is rare for a movie about drug trafficking.

Remi: 16:44

In August 2015, tom Cruise and the American Made team arrived in Colombia to scout filming locations, visiting Medellin on August 20th and Santa Marta on August 31st. Filming in Colombia began on August 26th and wrapped just a few weeks later on September 11th. Tragically, on the final day of filming, a twin-engine Piper Aerostar plane fatally crashed due to weather conditions while carrying three American pilots who were part of the film crew. Two of the pilots, carlos Burrell and Alan Perwin, lost their lives, while the third, jimmy Lee Garland, survived but was left paralyzed. Notably, just ten minutes before the crash, tom Cruise had flown a similar route in a helicopter under the same weather conditions. Despite their contributions to the film's aerial sequences. There was no dedication or memorial for Burl or Perwin included in the film.

Ashley: 17:39

That's kind of fucked.

Remi: 17:40

I agree, if someone lost their life during a production, the least you can do is put in memory of somewhere in the credits. I mean, that costs nothing and it's just the right thing to do. The incident led to a series of lawsuits, beginning with Alan Perwin's widow and children filing a wrongful death suit in April 2016, claiming that the production companies had allowed Carlos Burrell, who wasn't properly trained on Aerostar, to fly the plane. Carlos Burrell's family also filed their own lawsuit later that same year, alleging that Burl was pressured into piloting the aircraft despite warning the production of his inexperience. These legal battles extended even further when the producers of the film filed a counterclaim against Perwin's company, helleblak, alleging that Perwin had provided a faulty plane and overstated his credentials.

Ashley: 18:30

Well, here's why there was no dedication.

Remi: 18:33

Carlos Burrell's family settled their case in 2017, while Alan Perwin's case was later settled in 2019. Now, on that somber note, shall we get into the true story of Doug Liman's American Maid.

Ashley: 18:47

Yes, as I am depressed for these poor families.

Remi: 18:51

It is a pretty tragic way to start our story, but this did happen in pre-production so it needed to be told. It's important information. But now into the film American Made.

Domhnall Gleeson: 19:05

We're expanding operations. Barry the devil, you know the devil, you know the devil, you don't the devil.

Remi: 19:15

You know the devil, you don't. Our story begins in 1978 with pilot Barry Seal, played by Tom Cruise, behind the wheel of a TWA commercial airline flight, idling on the runway, currently 10th in line for takeoff. Isn't that the worst when you're just sitting on that runway, currently 10th in line for takeoff? Isn't that the worst when you're just sitting on that plane waiting to leave? I hate that so much 10th in line.

Ashley: 19:37

They got a while to go.

Remi: 19:38

I would be going insane just sitting there. Once airborne, the uneventful flight continues on as usual, with Barry's co-pilot catching a few Z's in the seat next to him. Barry, on the other hand, seems bored with the routine, so takes the plane off of autopilot so he can take control of the aircraft personally, jostling a few passengers awake in their seats during the process.

Ashley: 20:01

Okay, I want to point out here that TWA is the Trans World Airlines, so this is the same flight or the same airline that George Jung's girlfriend was taking all that pot in her luggage for, so this airline really seems super shady.

Remi: 20:19

TWA really kicked off the cocaine boom by all of this research we've done.

Remi: 20:24

They really helped a lot of that get into America and helped a lot of those pilots find alternate work.

Remi: 20:30

Back home, barry returns from his flight to his wife, lucy, played by Sarah Wright, who is there waiting for her man with lovin' on her mind.

Remi: 20:38

But Barry passes out cold before Lucy can even make a move. Wah wah, flying is tiring man. We then watch as a brief montage showcases the monotony of Barry's career as a TWA airline pilot, flying from city to city across America, living out of suitcases, spending night after night in a variety of mundane hotels. One evening after work at a hotel bar in one of the many nameless cities Barry frequents, barry is unexpectedly approached by a man named Monty Schaefer, played by Domhnall Gleeson, who casually mentions that he is aware of Barry's side hustle of smuggling Cuban cigars into America during his weekly trips. Beyond that, monty also seems to know a great deal about Barry's history, including that Barry graduated first in his class at the Civil Air Patrol and that Barry was the youngest pilot in TWA history. It gradually begins to dawn on Barry that the man sitting in front of him is in fact a CIA agent after Monty opines that America needs a man like Barry Seale working for them.

Ashley: 21:47

That's what caused him to put those pieces together. That's quite a leap.

Remi: 21:52

I agree. I kind of thought it was weird that he suddenly leaped to. This man must be from the CIA because he knew information about me and said America needs me. I don't know if I would immediately make that jump. I would think this guy was like trying to kill me or a hitman or something like that. Not CIA. Barry is then brought to an airplane hangar where Monty shows Barry the spanking new CIA Aerostar plane that he will be using while under their employ. Monty explains that Barry would technically be running a front company called Independent Aviation Consultants while flying covert operations for the CIA during his off hours. Independent Aviation Consultants is also CIA only. Iac. Barry would be dispatched to specific locations, primarily in Central America, in order for the plane to capture aerial photographs of hostile territories. All of this is, of course, extremely top secret, which Monty makes abundantly clear to Barry before proceeding any further.

Domhnall Gleeson: 23:06

South of the border, north of the equator, let's just say enemies of democracy. Look, the real work is covert. You understand, covert, so anyone finds out about it, family, friends, even Lucy. It's Lucy, right? Yeah, that's right, that'd be a problem.

Ashley: 23:39

Now would be a good time to point out, because I still remember when we realized this my mind was blown. Dom hall gleason is brendan gleason's son and brendan gleason is mad eye moody from harry potter yeah, this still blows my mind that we never put this together.

Remi: 23:52

They have the same last name, they are both from Ireland and, yeah, they just don't look anything alike and it never crossed my mind once that they were related. But yeah, dom Hill Gleeson and Brendan Gleeson and I just need to say Dom Hill Gleeson has kind of a nothing role in this, but he does a pretty good job with what he's given, I would say. After taking the CIA's plane for a single test drive, barry agrees to Monty's proposal. When Barry returns home to his wife, he tells Lucy the cover story he was given about starting his own business called the IAC that will supply logistical support for airports the IAC that will supply logistical support for airports. Lucy is naturally pessimistic about Barry's career change, fearing that they would lose any benefits that they currently receive from TWA, but Barry reassures his wife that she has absolutely nothing to worry about. Soon after, in October of 1978, barry officially quits his job at TWA to begin work for the CIA.

Remi: 24:53

Now, in those days the Cold War was in full swing and the Soviets were backing communist insurgents all over Central America. The CIA's plan was to have Barry's plane capture recon photos of these insurgents in countries like Guatemala, honduras and El Salvador, while often facing heavy gunfire from the insurgents below in the process. Needless to say, barry was finding his new career far more exciting than anything he had ever experienced back at TWA, and so far the CIA couldn't be happier with Barry's exceptional performance. Barry and Lucy also welcome their second child into the world during this time, so Barry humbly asks Monty for a raise so that he can better support his growing family. Monty uncharitably dismisses the request and assures Barry that his family will survive without the additional income.

Remi: 25:47

Soon Barry is promoted to bag man for the CIA, which entails dropping off and picking up payments for a colonel down in Panama named Noriega who was selling the agency's intel on the communists down in Central America. An unexpected downside to this promotion, however, was that Barry quickly began slipping back into a similarly tiresome routine that he had so desperately tried to flee from back at TWA. This all changes during a fateful trip to Colombia in 1980. While stopping to refuel, barry is confronted by a pair of armed men who we later learn are none other than Pablo Escobar and Carlos Lider, who we have learned about previously from the film Blow.

Ashley: 26:32

I was surprised to see Carlos Lider's name come up in this, but it was I'll talk a little bit later about kind of the hierarchy of the Medellin cartel and Carlos was like fifth in command. He was really high up there.

Remi: 26:48

I don't think it ever occurred to me that Carlos was one of the guys that was there on the ground level when the Medellin cartel was first getting started. He was one of the original guys and even when watching the movie it didn't even click because his name and blow was Diego. I don't think it registered to me that that was the same person at first until you pointed it out and I was like, oh my god, I just I couldn't believe it. I thought that Carlos was much lower on the totem pole than he actually was in real life. The two men escort Barry back to a private villa where he is introduced to the men's business partner, jorge Ochoa, being played by Alejandro Eta, who is awaiting their arrival. These three men would later go down in history as the founding members of the Medellin cartel. Like Monty, jorge seems to know an awful lot about Barry and proposes another potentially lucrative business opportunity to the notorious pilot. Have a seat.

Tom Cruise: 27:48

Coffee. Mr Seale, you know my name, Charlie Gringo, who flies to Central America every week Taking pictures very low with your fancy plane. Yeah, I mean those photos. See, I have an aviation company here in South America. Yes, it's the AIC. I see, yes, sir. Or is it CIA? What? No, no, no, I'm just a businessman here. I'm a businessman Imports, exports cattle horses.

Narrator: 28:30

But now, now, God above has blessed this great country with new riches, Mr Seal and you could help us.

Ashley: 28:34

I would be pissing my pants.

Remi: 28:39

I would be positive that these men were going to murder me. If I was picked up randomly at a Colombian airport by two armed men, then brought into this room with this man which you can't tell by the audio clip but there are men with guns all over the place I would be positive that they were going to kill me, especially when he mentioned that he knew that I was taking photos for the CIA. But that is not what happens. These new riches Jorge speaks of is, of course, cocaine, which the Colombians have been having a great deal of difficulty smuggling into America, forcing them to consider alternative means to export their product into the states. The Colombians offer Barry a generous compensation of 2K per kilo, which would be 2.2 pounds for him to fly their cocaine from Medellin, colombia, to Miami, florida. Barry is interested in the offer but has safety concerns regarding the Colombian's short, unpaved dirt runway, surrounded by trees at a high altitude, that he would be commuting back and forth from on a regular basis. Unfortunately for Barry, he is forced to make do with the Colombian's lackluster airstrip or be killed for refusing their offer. Barry theorizes that the reason so many of the Colombian's lackluster airstrip or be killed for refusing their offer. Barry theorizes that the reason so many of the Colombian's other pilots had been caught is because they were making their deliveries by landing directly in Miami. So Barry suggests dropping the product off at several new locations around Louisiana where the police wouldn't be looking Before long. 300 pounds in bricks of cocaine are being duct-taped to life jackets and loaded onto Barry's plane.

Remi: 30:16

After a bumpy takeoff and skimming the tips of a few trees on his way out, barry successfully gets his plane up in the air and on its way to Louisiana. Once Barry has navigated through the airspace to the various drop zones, he ejects the cocaine out of a small hatch located on the bottom of his plane, releasing the drugs down to the muddy swamp waters below where the Columbians have stationed several men awaiting its delivery. Barry then lands his plane at a local airport, checks in with US Customs and casually walks away completely scot-free. Casually walks away completely scot-free. During Barry's next meeting with the Columbians, they all share a celebratory shot of tequila to commemorate Barry's success, but the joyous occasion is cut short when the villa is raided by the Columbian police. This proves to be only a minor setback, though, as the Columbians are all soon released. A short time later, barry, on the other hand, has learned from Monty that his situation is a bit more serious than that of his associates After it is disclosed that the Louisiana Police Department have been notified of Barry's arrest and plan on raiding Barry's home at 6 am the following morning.

Remi: 31:23

Now remember the insurgents that Barry was tasked with snapping those photos of before? Well, as it turns out, those insurgents were actually a bunch of communists called the Sandinistas, who managed to take control of a little country called Nicaragua, marking the first successful revolution in Central America. President Ronald Reagan strongly opposed these Sandinistas and wanted a group of Nicaraguan freedom fighters called the Contras to remove the Sandinistas from Nicaragua. But Congress felt that the US's involvement could potentially lead to another Vietnam and outright refused Reagan's request to send aid to the Contras. This is where Barry Seale comes back in.

Remi: 32:06

After arranging for Barry's release from jail, monty suggests that Barry relocate his family to Mena, arkansas, before their home is raided at 6 am. Not wasting any time, barry hightails it back home from Columbia, wakes his wife and children from their pleasant slumber and frantically instructs his family to begin packing up their belongings so they can move to Mena, arkansas before sunrise. Up their belongings, so they can move to Mena, arkansas, before sunrise. Though Lucy is perplexed by her husband's sudden and urgent mandate to relocate their entire family in the dead of night, she nevertheless still trusts Barry and reluctantly agrees to go along with his request.

Ashley: 32:44

I think at this point I'd be like I don't think you're a plane company contractor for airports.

Remi: 32:53

This would be a we're not going anywhere until you tell me what the fuck is going on type situation. You're wanting to move to Arkansas in the middle of the night. You need to tell me what is happening, dude. I'm not just going to blindly go along with this at this point. Are we in danger? What's happening? Blindly go along with this at this point? Are we in danger? What's happening?

Remi: 33:13

Once in Mina, which could best be described as a sleepy little town with an exceptionally minute population, we catch a brief glimpse of local lawman Sheriff Downing, played by Jesse Plemons, as Barry and his family pass by the local Polk County Sheriff's Department on their way into town. I only mention this because I thought Jesse Plemons' character would be more of a factor going forward, but he really isn't. It's nice to see him, though. Moments after the Seal family have arrived at their remote new home, Barry is picked up by Monty and driven to a 2,000 acre airfield which Monty says now belongs to Barry. Monty then unveils Barry's latest CIA assignment, which will be flying crates full of AK-47s into Nicaragua in order to arm the Contra Freedom Fighters to aid in their war against the Sandinistas.

Ashley: 34:02

So Monty has zero questions about why Barry was arrested in Colombia with a bunch of cocaine smugglers.

Remi: 34:21

That's something that. I don't understand in this film is how aware the CIA were about what Barry was doing with the Medellin cartel. Because, yeah, he was arrested. Shouldn't the CIA know that he was doing some shady stuff? Just from this alone? But yeah, I guess they kept him on the payroll and kept him flying errands for him. Though Barry is understandably apprehensive about this latest task, he still agrees after being presented with a duffel bag filled to the brim with stacks of cash.

Ashley: 34:46

I guess this counts as the reese he was looking for.

Remi: 34:49

When Barry returns to his new home, he is confronted by Lucy, who I just noticed, is pregnant with their third child and is understandably perturbed by her family's unexpectedly rapid change in accommodations. Lucy's frustrations quickly diminish, however, once Barry reveals his bag full of cash and finally confesses that he has been working for the CIA. So she did start asking questions about what was going on, but not until after her entire family had gotten up and moved to a new state.

Ashley: 35:20

She probably didn't have a lot of time to do it. I imagine he came in and was like we gotta go, go, go, go go.

Remi: 35:26

They didn't say anything to each other during the car ride. I assume this car ride is a couple hours Like there was no mention in that car. Like honey, what is going on? Explain?

Ashley: 35:34

this, that's true. That's true. That would have been an ample time to have that conversation.

Remi: 35:40

Not long after Barry touches down in Nicaragua with a plane full of firearms to deliver to the Contras but is instantly swarmed by the mob of freedom fighters who come across as an unstructured group of ill-equipped, ragtag misfits who are all in way over their heads.

Ashley: 35:58

But at least they're not communists.

Remi: 36:01

Undeterred. The US government continues sending Barry on regular deliveries to the Contras, often including boxes of pornography and liquor along with the additional firearms. So that's nice, A little bonus, I guess.

Ashley: 36:13

Gotta keep your troops happy.

Remi: 36:15

During one of Barry's typical trips to Nicaragua, he is surprised to find that his old pal, jorge, is also there in attendance. Jorge then brings Barry to a meeting with the leader of the Contras, adolfo Salero.

Domhnall Gleeson: 36:29

This is Don Adolfo Calero. He works for your government on the revolution to bring down the Sandinistas. Jorge tells me you are the crazy gringo who always delivers.

Ronald Reagan: 36:41

We have a new business proposition to you, bar. You bring your American guns to Colombia. Deliver our cocaine here to the Contras. The Contras take it by fishing boats to Miami. And everybody's happy. It's for the war effort, Mr Seale.

Remi: 36:59

Turns out that the Contras really weren't all that interested in going to war and would much rather make money, just like everybody else. Since the Medellin cartel wanted the guns that the Contras weren't using, the two groups worked out a little trade agreement which would be far more mutually beneficial to both parties. For this latest arrangement, Barry would load up the guns in Mina, bypass any law enforcement using CIA intel, fly to the cartel's airstrip in Medellin, drop off the guns, reload the plane with cocaine, then fly to the Contra training camp in Nicaragua. Next, the Contras would hide the cocaine in fishing boats to sail up to Miami while Barry's plane is loaded up with even more cocaine yet again. Finally, after a quick stopover in Panama to refuel under the protection of General Noriega, Barry continues on to Louisiana to drop the final load and head on home.

Ashley: 37:55

He is just digging himself a deeper and deeper hole. Now, isn't he, wouldn't your?

Remi: 38:00

anxiety levels just be through the roof like 24 hours a day. If you were doing shit like this, I would not be able to handle it. I think my hands would never stop shaking. I would just constantly be afraid I was going to jail forever or going to be murdered by the Medellin cartel. Like in no reality does this end well for me. I would be thinking Soon. The operation has become so big that Barry enlists the help of four more pilots that he playfully refers to as his snowbirds to help aid in his deliveries. Things continue like this for some time until Barry learns that the CIA will be expanding its operations by utilizing a portion of his land for training purposes. Barry is also tasked with bringing the Contra's soldiers back to America so that they can be professionally trained to fight by the US military.

Ashley: 38:50

America so that they can be professionally trained to fight by the US military. For the Iran-Contra scandal, the government was training the Contra soldiers, but I think they were doing it in Nicaragua. I don't think they were bringing people back here.

Remi: 39:02

They weren't importing them to MENA, arkansas. That does seem more difficult than just sending military people to the Contras. Barry does as instructed and flies several members of the Nicaraguan Freedom Fighters back to the small town of Mena, arkansas, for further training. An unintended consequence of this was that many of the Contras would flee from their training as soon as they had arrived in America. Despite all of this, even more Contras are steadily flown into Mina as the local sheriff, jesse Plemons, is paid to look the other way by 1982,.

Remi: 39:37

Business is booming and Barry has been regularly earning a hefty chunk of change for all of his efforts. Because of his success, barry is even able to renovate his modestENA home into a lavish piglet pink colored mini mansion surrounded by luscious green grass, decadent water fountains and a king-size swimming pool adorning the backyard. Barry also opens up a few more front corporations to launder his income, but continues to make money faster than he could possibly launder. What an issue. At the time, barry had $10 million stashed at MENA National Bank, $12 million in MENA State, $15 million in MENA Trust, another $40 million stashed in Miami, $20 million in Panama, plus $7 million in lawn bags, $8 million in suitcases, $4 million buried in the woods behind his house and 90 pounds of gold hidden in his closet.

Ashley: 40:34

Where did he get the gold?

Remi: 40:35

They didn't really go into that I assume they were just giving him gold as tips once in a while. But I also want to just take this opportunity to say how much I love scenes in movies where it is someone who has too much money from an illegal enterprise that they don't know what to do with it, like they did it in Goodfellas, they did it last week in Blow, they did it in Breaking Bad. Just the whole idea of we have so much money and nowhere to put it is just such a crazy concept and I always love those scenes in movies.

Ashley: 41:04

Yeah, the Breaking Bad one is good when he like rents out that warehouse. I think first he tries to put it like underneath his house and that gets filled, and then he like gets this warehouse and it's just filled to the brim and he's like, oh my god, what do we do?

Remi: 41:19

It's just such a crazy problem to have. We have so much money but no way to legally be able to spend this practically. It's just such an interesting conundrum. Sometime later, the happy family are paid an unexpected visit by Barry's dim-witted, hillbilly brother-in-law, bubba, played by Caleb Landry Jones, who will be staying with them until he can get back on his feet. To help out, barry gives Bubba a thankless job sweeping up debris in his airstrip hangers. But even that proves to be too challenging for our boy Bubba. Things only get worse from there when Bubba shows up at the family's house one afternoon with a 15-year-old girl and a brand new car he clearly couldn't afford. When Barry confronts Bubba about where he had gotten the money from, bubba is honest and admits that he stole it from Barry's airstrip hangar. Barry reprimands Bubba but inevitably lets him off with just a warning.

Remi: 42:15

One evening, during a night run back to Miami with his Snowbird crew in 1983, barry and his team are intercepted by a DEA jet for violating the air defense identification code and are ordered to land immediately. In response, barry and his team slow their planes to a near crawl, which is one thing that the highly equipped state-of-the-art DEA jet is unable to do. This delay eventually results in the DEA's jet needing to refuel, giving Barry and his crew just the window of opportunity needed to make their escape. Another problem arises when the unusual amount of money being held at various banks in the small town of Mena, arkansas, is brought to the attention of the FBI, which is something that wouldn't have even occurred to me. But yeah, they are just like. Why is this small town have millions and millions and millions of dollars suddenly appearing in their bank? Yeah, that would be a huge red flag that I would not have even thought about.

Remi: 43:15

During another one of Barry's many runs, barry is intercepted by the United States Border Patrol flying into Louisiana. So Barry lands his plane on a sparsely populated neighborhood road to avoid being captured. Neighborhood road to avoid being captured. After touching down relatively safely, barry's plane collides with a large tree, deploying its airbags and scattering cocaine over everything like a glitter bomb. Barry is miraculously unharmed during the crash and carefully exits the plane covered head to toe in cocaine powder, clinging to a duffel bag full of money. As a pair of bewildered neighborhood children watch on Stumbling to his feet, barry hands the confused children a few wads of cash, then commandeers the young boy's bike to make his escape as police sirens approach in the distance. This is a great scene, although I'm super pessimistic that it actually happened.

Remi: 44:07

It did not, I knew it. It is probably one of the best scenes in the movie, I would say. Barry isn't the only one facing heat from the DEA, though, as the Medellin cartel are soon forced out of Colombia and into Nicaragua, where the DEA are unable to interfere. Barry is also informed that for his next run he is expected to transport 1,500 kilos of cocaine, which is the most he had ever done in a single trip.

Remi: 44:35

Back in Mina, Bubba is arrested with a suitcase full of cash he had clearly stolen from his brother-in-law. Barry instructs Bubba to keep his mouth shut while he is in jail and let Bubba's lawyer do all of the talking for him. This incident proves to be a distraction from Barry's latest epic drug run, so the Median cartel promise to handle Bubba so that Barry can focus all of his efforts on the task at hand. Now, concerned for his brother-in-law's safety, Barry bails Bubba out of jail, drives him out to a parked car on a deserted road, then hands Bubba a bag which contains a passport, cash and a first-class one-way ticket to Bora Bora. Devastated, Bubba exits the vehicle and shambles over to the parked car positioned up the road. After cussing out Barry for his troubles, Bubba enters the car, drives off, then moments later explodes, killing Bubba in the process.

Ashley: 45:26

Oh no.

Remi: 45:28

The cartel knew Bubba was too much of a risk. They knew he was going to talk. They were not going to let him ever face trial or get back in police custody. So it is very understandable that that is what went down.

Ashley: 45:42

Poor Bubba.

Remi: 45:44

Back at the CIA. Monty has been dealing with his own issues after it is uncovered that the CIA operations that he had been spearheading have primarily produced exceedingly less than ideal results.

Ashley: 45:58

That's the understatement of the century. Monty's gonna get fired after this.

Remi: 46:02

Well, within the past year alone, Monty's CIA operations have transported 10,500 AK-47 to the Contras, 5,000 of which have miraculously found their way into the hands of the Medellin cartel. To top it all off, out of the 916 Contras brought into the United States for training purposes, only about half returned to Nicaragua to continue the fight. This utter lack of progress inevitably leads to the CIA calling off Monty's operation, leaving Barry in quite the precarious predicament. After getting the bad news, Barry and his crew hastily attempt to remove any leftover munitions still on the property, but are thwarted when Barry's hangar is raided by the DEA, ATF, FBI and state police all simultaneously. Barry is then taken in to speak with the state's attorney general, Dana Sabota, who vows to prosecute Barry to the fullest extent of the law, until she is interrupted by an unexpected phone call from Governor Bill Clinton. As Barry waits out in the hallway, surrounded by every form of law enforcement imaginable, he seems unworried and playfully makes light of the entire situation.

Tom Cruise: 47:17

Do you do that for all of us? Yes, sir, I would. I'd get all y'all caddies. Have them here this afternoon. What are you trying to do, Seal? Add another 20 for bribery. Oh, no, no, no, no, I'm just offering y'all caddies for your troubles. What troubles, Seal? Well, bring me down here for one. See, I'm going to walk out of here. I'm going to walk out of here. I ran a damn thing.

Ashley: 47:52

Any one of you can do about it. I do not think I would be quite so cavalier, especially because that CIA mission is off. I would be terrified that I would just be thrown under the bus as a scapegoat.

Remi: 48:09

Yeah, his confidence doesn't really make sense in this scene. If I were him, I would be shitting bricks because the, like you said, the CIA operation was called off. He doesn't have the CIA covering his ass anymore. So if I were him, I would be really, really scared that I would be going to jail forever.

Ashley: 48:24

And the whole mission was one that was done without congressional approval, so that's an extra reason why the CIA would not want it to see the light of day.

Remi: 48:35

Yeah, it was all off the books, so they would not want this information getting out that they had been helping Barry at all. But seconds later the attorney general exits her office with a look of disbelief etched across her face as she instructs the agents to set Barry free. Barry is then met outside by a group of suited men who escort Barry onto a private airplane. Much to his surprise, Barry's final destination turns out to be the White House for an impromptu meeting with the DEA and an American colonel named Oliver North.

Ashley: 49:10

That is the guy who was in charge of Iran-Contra.

Remi: 49:14

Yes, he is the guy who took the fall for it, at least During the meeting. North and the DEA instruct Barry to continue running drugs for the Median cartel, only this time with the White House itself backing him up to gain further intel. In 1984, barry is given a new extra-large military plane by the US government, equipped with over 50 cameras, to carry out his latest run into Nicaragua. Though Barry's mission is successful, the photos taken at the scene are later prominently featured during a presidential address from Ronald Reagan, with Barry's face fully visible, spelling out bad news for Barry and his bros. To make matters worse, the feds conduct another raid on Barry's property, uncovering and confiscating every last bit of Barry's hidden millions.

Remi: 50:03

Lucy and the kids move to Baton Rouge, louisiana, while Barry stays in Arkansas and is sentenced to a staggering 1,000 hours of community service for his menagerie of federal crimes. Free yet again, barry begins a routine of staying in a different motel every night, but must still return every evening to check in at the same Salvation Army halfway house for 120 days in a row under judge's orders. Unable to flee from the cartel, barry is eventually murdered in his vehicle by a Colombian hitman armed with a machine gun. We learn before the closing credits that Lucy and the kids settled back in Louisiana and Monty Schaefer got a promotion. All but one of Barry's Snowbirds pilots were never seen or heard from again. The CIA continued to use Barry's planes to arm the Contras until one was shot down in Nicaragua. The ensuing scandal was known as the Iran-Contra affair, and here's a quick rundown of the entire scandal, brought to you through song by Stan Smith from American Dad.

Stan Smith: 51:13

You see, North secretly sold missiles to a harmless country called Iran. That would always be a grateful ally. Then he gave the profits to the Contras Genius. But the sales were uncovered by the press. Reagan and North began to stress Because what they did was technically high treason. But it was totally justified.

Remi: 51:41

And that was Doug Liman's American Made. What do you think, Ashley?

Ashley: 52:01

Well, spoiler alert there are a lot of changes and discrepancies. I think that his assertion at the beginning that it is a story based on the rumors that were told about Barry Seale, rather than the accuracy of Barry Seale's life, is a very true statement about this film.

Remi: 52:12

So this is more of a tall tale version of Barry Seals' Escapades, in your opinion.

Ashley: 52:18

Yes, as a little teaser, he never worked for the CIA.

Remi: 52:22

Really, that's a very big change, then, right off the bat. Okay, well, I'm anxious to learn how much of this was not true and if any of it was actually true.

Ashley: 52:32

Before we get into the post-production stuff which I know you said there isn't a ton about. So what did you think about the movie?

Remi: 52:40

I enjoyed the movie for, like a fun action comedy that it was, it never once struck me that what I was watching was based on a true story and that all of this stuff was factually accurate. The whole time I was watching this movie, I thought of it as a Tom Cruise movie. I did not think of it as a true crime story. I did not think of it as a biopic. I thought of it as a movie Tom Cruise wanted to do so he could learn how to fly some new planes and spend some time up in the air and getting paid for it. But I did like the movie. I just know that I am going to be left wanting a version that was more faithful after I hear the facts.

Ashley: 53:20

And I will say, even though Tom Cruise doesn't look like Barry Seale I mean you already said the weight difference is a huge one I think how he portrayed his personality actually fit pretty well. Like everyone said, barry was like very charismatic and likable and just was super friendly to everyone he met, and in the clips that's how he is portrayed.

Remi: 53:43

He definitely comes across as an extremely likable guy in the film.

Ashley: 53:48

And it's funny. There's another movie about Barry Seale which we didn't watch. I had not heard about it until this. It's called Double Crossed with Dennis Hopper from 1991. It's actually an HBO movie, but from the little snippet I read it's also not a very accurate portrayal of his life. He's really painted as a character who's like maligned by the government and targeted for little to no reason, which also is not the case.

Remi: 54:16

I did almost watch that one when I stumbled across it just to compare the two, but all the reviews were very, very bad and, again, like you said, it's not very accurate either. So I chose to not watch that one because I probably would have had to purchase it off of eBay, like I did. The Positively adventures of the alleged Texas cheerleader murdering mom.

Ashley: 54:39

Maybe one day we'll do a little bonus episode where we'll both kind of watch it and compare.

Remi: 54:45

I would be curious. I do like Dennis Hopper a lot and I think that Dennis Hopper probably makes more sense as Barry Seal than Tom Cruise does. But let's get into the little bit of information I have about the release of this film. This is probably one of the shortest sections of the release that I've ever done. American Made currently has an approval rating of 85% on Rotten Tomatoes, with a critical consensus that reads. American Made's fast and loose attitude, with its real-life story, mirrors the cavalier and delightfully watchable energy Tom Cruise gives off in the leading role.

Ashley: 55:24

That is such a high rating.

Remi: 55:26

Agreed. I look at this and like this movie got a higher rating than Blow. Come on. American Maid was the second of two Universal Pictures films starring Tom Cruise released that year, with the first being the Mummy, which we have already mentioned was not very good, but also has a scene where he's in a plane and flying around. American Made ended up grossing $51.3 million in the United States and Canada and another $83.6 million in other territories, for a worldwide total of $134.9 million against a production budget of $50 million.

Remi: 56:04

So, a decently successful film that kind of came and went and no one talks about anymore and there's no other information about after it came out. Like it seems like this movie came out and everyone involved just moved on right away and never really talked about it again. I was surprised at how little there was after this film came out.

Ashley: 56:21

I thought for sure it was going to cost more to make than it made, just because of what you said about all the planes and how Tom Cruise was like purposefully crashing some, and just his salary alone. I mean, he's one of the top earning actors ever, at least in the past couple decades.

Remi: 56:40

That production budget is surprisingly low, I would say. Anytime I hear a Tom Cruise movie is coming out, I automatically assume it costs $100 million, because it just doesn't seem like he makes modestly budgeted movies. But $50 million for this is actually not bad at all, and if they had spent $100 million on it they would not have turned a profit in the end. So good on Lyman for keeping the production budget down on this one. But that was Doug Lyman's American Made a most likely fabricated story about a real-life person starring one of America's most famous celebrities. But I'm much more interested now to find out the truth about this man and his life and find out that story as opposed to the Tom Crucified version. So will you lay that on me, miss Ashley?

Ashley: 57:31

Yeah, get ready to have your mind blown. Alder Berryman Seal was born in Baton Rouge on July 16th 1939. His early love of flying prompted him to pursue lessons shortly after he started high school. Although his mother begged the instructor not to teach him to fly because of the potential dangers involved, the teacher was so impressed by the teen's natural talent that he allowed Seal to fly solo after only eight hours of instruction.

Remi: 58:17

talent that he allowed Seal to fly solo after only eight hours of instruction. That seems like a very, very, very short amount of time to allow someone to fly an airplane alone for the first time.

Ashley: 58:25

Especially a 15-year-old kid.

Remi: 58:27

Yeah, I'm questioning this dude's judgment, this teacher.

Ashley: 58:30

In his free time, seal hung around the Baton Rouge airport talking to pilots in hopes of bumming a ride. In the Baton Rouge airport talking to pilots in hopes of bumming a ride. His dedication paid off, as he became a fully licensed pilot by the time he was 16 years old.

Remi: 58:43

Is that even allowed today? I can't imagine a 16 year old piloting my plane. I would kind of freak the fuck out if they introduced my pilot and I saw a 16 year old standing there.

Ashley: 58:54

To fly airplanes where you actually have like passengers, you have to get a commercial pilot license, so it's a little different. These were just kind of like little pedal pusher planes.

Remi: 59:04

Okay, okay, my plane. Ignorance is shining through.

Ashley: 59:07

He graduated from Baton Rouge High School in 1957 and enrolled at Louisiana State University for a year. His withdrawal may or may not have been related to him crashing a plane he rented from a chemistry professor. Although no passengers were injured, seale spent a week in the hospital, had his jaw wired shut for a month and was fitted with a metal plate and five false teeth. A year later his father filed a civil suit against the professor and rental company, seeking medical damages. The lawsuit alleged the crash was the result of engine failure caused by the wrong type of fuel being used. The suit was dismissed in April 1960 after a witness said Seal instructed him to lie about the fuel issue. Seal enlisted in the Louisiana National Guard in August 1961. He was trained in radio operating and parachute jumping and honorably discharged in July 1967.

Ashley: 1:00:01

There have been some myths about Seale's military career. For example, he didn't receive special forces qualifications, nor was he a Green Beret stationed in Vietnam. I'm surprised none of these were incorporated into American Made. After his military discharge, seale joined Transworld Airlines as a flight engineer and rapidly worked his way up to a command pilot. He was one of the youngest pilots for the company, assigned to a Boeing 707 and began flying a regular European route. By all accounts, he was likable, talkative, charismatic and an incredibly skilled pilot one of the best most had ever seen. He was also a bit of an entrepreneur. Over the years he acquired a Texaco gas station, opened two flying companies and started two rental sign businesses, but most of these ventures ultimately failed. Some might also say he was a ladies' man. He married his first wife, barbara Bottoms, in March 1963. Ladies man, he married his first wife, barbara Bottoms, in March 1963.

Remi: 1:01:01

They had two children together before they divorced in 1971, allegedly because of domestic violence, and I am throwing this out there because I learned this in production. Lucy, his wife in the film obviously is not based on a specific wife because he had three, but I'm assuming it's an amalgamation of all of them put into one character.

Ashley: 1:01:18

That makes sense for something I'll point out later. Less than a month after the divorce was finalized, he married Linda Ross. This marriage ended about a year later after she claimed abandonment. His third marriage was to Deborah Dubois in November 1974. They had three children and were together at the time of his death in 1986. This is who it sounds like she was primarily based on.

Remi: 1:01:43

So Barry had five kids total.

Ashley: 1:01:45

He actually had six. He had another with a child from a relationship between marriages.

Remi: 1:01:50

Wow, okay.

Ashley: 1:01:51

Seal landed himself on the government's radar after he and seven others were arrested by US Customs for their involvement in a plot to smuggle over seven tons of weapons and explosives to Mexico, or possibly Cuba, on July 1, 1972. He was still working as a TWA pilot but falsely took medical leave to participate in the scheme. Although the case was dismissed a few years later, the arrest did result in him losing his job. Seal began smuggling marijuana into the States in early 1976. He flew his plane into a small airport near Baton Rouge where it was serviced by an airport employee. During a trip to Honduras in December 1976, he met and befriended air traffic controller Joe Cooper. With Cooper's help, he incorporated cocaine and other drugs into a smuggling operation in 1978.

Remi: 1:02:43

This is a similar path as George Jung so far, starting with weed and then moving up to cocaine.

Ashley: 1:02:50

Marijuana, that gateway drug.

Remi: 1:02:52

Especially if you are a drug smuggler apparently.

Ashley: 1:02:55

The drugs were picked up in Colombia, flown to Honduras for refueling, transported to Seal's private landing strip in Baton Rouge and handed off for transportation to Florida. In December 1979, he was arrested at the Honduras airport. After the authorities were tipped off to the operation, A rifle was the only item of consequence found on board, but it was enough to trigger an arrest. Like George Jung, Seal had a knack for recruiting people in jail or while traveling to join his enterprise. While in prison in Honduras, he met Emil Camp, a pilot from Louisiana who was arrested in December 1977 for cocaine smuggling.

Ashley: 1:03:34

Once Seal was released from prison in June 1980, after allegedly bribing the judge, Camp became the co-pilot for most of Seal's future smuggling. Once Seal was released from prison in June 1980, after allegedly bribing the judge, Camp became the co-pilot for most of Seal's future smuggling trips. Back home in Baton Rouge, Seal began expanding his fleet, paying cash for his newly acquired planes and hangars. His planes were always in tip-top shape and equipped with state-of-the-art electrical and navigation devices. With Camp as co-pilot, Seal recruited and trained his former brother-in-law, William Bottoms, to be his main pilot. So this is obviously supposed to be Bubba.

Remi: 1:04:06

I kind of wish they had kept the name Bill Bottoms.

Ashley: 1:04:09

Bottoms was a former US Navy mission and plane commander and flew all the smuggling operations about 25, for Seal, starting in the summer of 1980.

Remi: 1:04:18

So Bill, as I'm going to call him, actually could fly a plane. He could do more than just sweep up a hangar.

Ashley: 1:04:25

Yeah, he flew for the US Navy. He was also a very skilled pilot. He was not a bozo With Will and Emil up in the air. This left time for Seal to set up the meticulously planned flights, oversee the recovery of the drugs and arrange transport to Florida. He kept in constant contact with his pilots via a private shortwave radio station near Baton Rouge. He, or an assistant, monitored the flights, used numeric code to communicate and alerted them if they were being tailed or surveilled. To further avoid detection, his pilots fled lower-than-government aircraft while also plotting out the routes most commonly taken by DEA and US Customs to avoid them in the air. This is also a lot like what George Chung did. The loads were then tossed out of the plane into predetermined locations in Louisiana, most often swampy areas between Baton Rouge and Lafayette. See would then have another pilot fly a helicopter to recover the load and take it to secure locations where it was transferred to cars for trips to Florida.

Ashley: 1:05:25

Seal's operation took off after he became an employee of the Medellin cartel in 1981. By 1982, the cartel was led by Fabio Ochoa and his son Jorge. The hierarchy was this the Ochoas managed transportation, pablo Escobar was in charge of production and Carlos Sleater controlled distribution into the states. There are two main origin theories for the cartel. Some argue it was developed in November 1981, after Ochoa's daughter was kidnapped for ransom by a revolutionary group called M19. Ochoa reportedly organized the murder of dozens of M19 members before his daughter was released in February 1982. A second prevailing theory is Jorge Ochoa formed an organization of 225 businessmen whose purpose was to unite and make clear to guerrilla groups that the kidnapping of wealthy Colombians would not be tolerated. Regardless of how the Medellin cartel came to be, it was highly specialized and organized by 1982. Shortly after joining forces with them, 42-year-old Seale was transporting on average 300 kilos and taking home as much as a half a million dollars per flight.

Ashley: 1:06:38

In the middle of 1982, seale moved his flight operations to Mena, arkansas. As the frequency of flights and number of planes started to attract the attention of the Louisiana State Police and federal investigators, he learned he was being watched. After an agent asked him to work undercover on sting operations, seal declined and was told he would have detectives on him around the clock until he slipped up enough to get arrested. Once in MENA, seal got to work building an airplane hangar on property owned by Fred Hampton, owner of a company called Rich Mountain Aviation. In later years, agents were convinced Hampton was responsible for installing illegal fuel tanks, modifying the cargo hatches of Seal's planes and changing registration numbers. However, since Fred was loyal to Seal and vice versa, they were never able to obtain enough information to formally charge him with any wrongdoing.

Ashley: 1:07:32

The Mina hangar was where Seal stored the planes after drug drops, typically under large tarps to conceal the elaborate avionics in the cockpit. He also avoided keeping anything in the planes or hangar that could potentially incriminate him, although he denied ever using MENA for anything other than a storage space for his planes. Results of an extensive joint investigation by the FBI, arkansas State Police and IRS revealed in 2020 that the MENA airport was used for smuggling activity as early as late 1980 up until March 1984. Given all the attention Seal received to date, it wasn't long before the FBI noticed he set up shop in MENA and started surveilling the activity around his hangar. Noticed he set up shop in Mina and started surveilling the activity around his hangar.

Ashley: 1:08:24

The increased scrutiny was directly tied to the war Ronald Reagan declared on drugs in early 1982, which resulted in the creation of organized crime drug task forces across key regions of the United States, including Baton Rouge. During the first task meeting with DEA agents assigned to Louisiana, seal was unanimously nominated as a target, as the DEA had informant reports confirming he was a drug smuggler. While Seal knew he was being investigated by authorities in Louisiana and MENA, he was unaware he was also part of an undercover DEA sting operation called Operation Screamer, named after the screamer nightbird of South America and the loud noises from planes taking off from Florida at all hours of the day. He had been a target since an informant introduced him to a Miami DEA agent in April 1981. Over the next several months they negotiated a deal for Seal to move 1,200 pounds of counterfeit chalk Quaalude tablets. In March 1983, he and over 80 other pilots were indicted on conspiracy and distribution charges in Florida.

Ashley: 1:09:30

Seal actually had two separate cases and pay close attention here because this is going to get pretty confusing, but it's really important to fully understand everything that transpires here on out. In case number one, which I'm going to refer to these as case number one and two from here on out In case number one, seale was actually the only defendant and he was charged with two counts of possession and conspiracy to distribute quaaludes. In case number two, there were multiple co-defendants, all charged with additional possession with intent to distribute charges, in addition to one count of using a phone in the commission of a felony. So the biggest difference is in the first case he was charged alone and in the second it was a bunch of people, including Seal. And so because they're two separate cases, they're going to be two separate trials, two separate sentencing hearings, two separate sentences, but they're all from this same Operation Screamer in Florida.

Ashley: 1:10:28

Seal went into hiding for several weeks after he was indicted on those two Florida cases, but he surrendered to federal authorities in Fort Lauderdale on April 26, 1983 and was released on a $1.25 million bond. Shortly after his court appearance, he and his attorney met with a federal prosecutor and shared a little bit about his involvement with the Ochoa family, even offering to work undercover in exchange for a favorable plea deal. After this offer was rejected, seale returned to Baton Rouge and picked up right where he left off, despite these pending legal cases and knowing several other agencies were itching at the bit to catch him in the act. So why was Seale so invested in continuing his illegal activities? Well, for the excitement, of course.

Barry Seal: 1:11:17

The cost of living an exciting life is high. You can't sit in Baton Rouge and go to work from nine to five on Monday through Friday and go to the LSU football games on Saturday night and church on Sunday morning and have an exciting life on Saturday night and church on Sunday morning and have an exciting life. That may be exciting to 99% of the population, but to me it's not, and the exciting thing in life to me is to get into a life-threatening situation. Now that's excitement.

Remi: 1:11:50

Maybe he should try skydiving or something.

Ashley: 1:12:01

Barry Seale and George Young have a lot in common. They are men that like taking risks and strive and search for excitement at all costs.

Remi: 1:12:05

They thrive off of it, it seems.

Ashley: 1:12:08

As the Baton Rouge task force concentrated their efforts on Seal, they decided to try to nab his ground crew and pilots during a delivery. The problem was they didn't know when or where one of these would take place. What they did know is that Seal planned the deliveries and flights over public payphones. Through prior surveillance, they observed Seal using payphones all across Baton Rouge, sometimes as many as five different ones within an hour. He always carried a briefcase full of quarter rolls and as soon as he got a page on his beeper, he headed over to whatever payphone was closest to him.

Remi: 1:12:46

It does seem like in movies, especially ones that take place in the 70s and 80s, all illegal business is done over payphones. I'm surprised. It seems like payphones would be really easy to tap into.

Ashley: 1:12:59

So it's actually harder to get permission to get a wiretap on a payphone, because you have to figure out one what payphone to use, and you can only use wiretaps for specific conversations with certain targets and only about whatever you're trying to get information about.

Remi: 1:13:21

So the fact that it was a public phone and could potentially be recording random people's conversations, that would be a no-no.

Ashley: 1:13:26

That's something they had to deal with later, once they did get these wiretaps.

Remi: 1:13:30

That makes a lot of sense.

Ashley: 1:13:32

The tale of Seal was kicked into high gear in May 1983, as agents needed to figure out which phones he used most often to secure permission for wiretaps. They couldn't just put wiretaps on every single payphone in Baton Rouge and remember, this is like the time before cell phones, so payphones were everywhere.

Remi: 1:13:52

And pretty popular.

Ashley: 1:13:54

From then on, operation Coin Roll was in full force. Three to four agents were assigned to watch Seal around the clock, something he caught onto very quickly. For example, on the very first day of this, he led his tail to a church driveway that ended in a cul-de-sac, blocked the exit with his Cadillac, got out of his car to stare down the agents and gave them a disapproving finger wave and head shake before speeding off. Blocked the exit with his Cadillac, got out of his car to stare down the agents and gave them a disapproving finger wave and head shake before speeding off.

Remi: 1:14:23

I am shocked that this was not included in the film. That's pretty badass.

Ashley: 1:14:27

I must say All of the stuff he does to his tail is just hilarious.

Remi: 1:14:31

Just waving the finger like uh-uh-uh, naughty, naughty.

Ashley: 1:14:39

As the months pass he became increasingly paranoid of anyone he didn't recognize. He drove erratically, often stopping suddenly to get out of his car and stare down anyone he thought had been following him for too long. At home he often drove his golf car up and down his dead end street to find out who was monitoring him. A lot of times too, when he was leaving restaurants for dinner or whatever he would like, spot who was following him and he would just walk up to the car, knock on the window and wave goodbye to them.

Ashley: 1:15:07

In June 1983, agents started to suspect Seal was monitoring their secure radio channel. To test this theory, a false broadcast message ordered all agents to a nearby Holiday Inn for an emergency meeting. Their suspicions were confirmed when Seal immediately jumped in his car and sped to the hotel, no doubt trying to get a glimpse of everyone who was following him. With their theory confirmed, another broadcast instructed a pilot to discontinue overhead observation of his home. Seal responded by standing in his driveway, waving up the plane with what looked like a large white bath towel. Although their cover was blown from the get-go, a pattern of telephone use did emerge by October 1983. Over time they learned Seal had a fondness for specific payphones located within a short distance from his residence. All of them were marked with out-of-service signs that he put on them to make sure that they were free whenever he needed them.

Remi: 1:16:04

What a shocker. He's using the phones closest to his residence.

Ashley: 1:16:08

From October 1983 to January 1984, 11 payphones were tapped but no useful information materialized. Seale's first trial for Operation Screamer so this is case number one where he was the sole defendant started on February 14, 1984. He was convicted on March 17, with sentencing being set for the end of May. Knowing he was facing up to 10 years in prison, he quickly contacted the DEA to strike a deal to avoid prison time. Unlike the prosecutor he tried to work with previously, the DEA recognized Seal's value. A few weeks later he signed a cooperation letter agreeing to be an informant. Shortly after Seal pled guilty to Florida case number two, the one with several co-defendants, the judge was informed of the cooperation agreement, so it was decided his sentencing would be put on hold and depend on his performance as a confidential informant. Despite him now being a key cooperating witness for the DEA agents in Miami, he remained under active investigation in Louisiana and Arkansas, which highlights the lack of coordination between these different federal agencies.

Ashley: 1:17:21

No one in Louisiana was informed about the scope of Seale's DEA involvement or the importance of his potential testimony. Rather, they viewed him as a recently convicted felon who was still actively involved in cocaine smuggling. And when I say actively involved in cocaine smuggling. I think I say actively involved in cocaine smuggling. I think he stopped doing it for the cartel because he was now working with the DEA. But what the agents in Arkansas and Louisiana saw was that he was still flying planes out of the country, so they assumed he was bringing coke back. In the months to follow, seale worked closely with DEA agents in Florida. He mapped out meeting points, went over favored flight plans and disclosed secret codes used by smugglers. He also helped organize several covert missions, with the first occurring on April 8, 1984. Until now Seale had an associate handle all the direct communication with the cartel. When he did interact with the Columbians, he used an alias of Ellis McKenzie, someone he worked with previously. Otherwise the Columbians really only knew him as El Gordo Spanish for the fat one.

Remi: 1:18:31

Not the gringo who delivers.

Ashley: 1:18:34

Not the crazy gringo or whatever it was. I'm assuming they changed that, because it would have been really weird to call Tom Cruise the fat one.

Remi: 1:18:42

But he gained all that weight for the role.

Ashley: 1:18:45

For this first meeting, Seal flew to Colombia to meet with Escobar and three Ochoa brothers to discuss plans to transport 1,500 pounds of cocaine. This is when the first hint of the cartel's connection to the Nicaraguan government was uncovered. During this initial meeting, Jorge Ochoa told Seal about a landing strip he acquired, claiming the Sandinista government agreed to build a larger hangar and allow the strip to be used for international drug shipments For the next month. Seale frequently spoke to his Colombian contacts and an aide to the Nicaraguan minister to iron out the details. However, plans for the flight were disrupted on May 23rd by his sentencing hearing for Florida case number one, so Florida case number two.

Ashley: 1:19:32

That sentencing was postponed, but since the first trial happened first, they had set the sentencing for this April 23rd and never changed it. Because no one from the DEA or the attorney's office bothered to tell the judge about Seal's cooperation, he ended up being sentenced to 10 years in prison and was immediately taken into custody. His attorney filed an emergency motion, which the judge granted and heard in a closed hearing. After being told about Seal's DEA involvement and cooperation agreement, the judge agreed to let Seal be released on bond until his duties were completed. So he can keep on keeping on, but there is still this 10-year prison sentence hanging above his head.

Remi: 1:20:15

It's like a delay in his sentence.

Ashley: 1:20:19

A delay of the start date. Yeah, a lot of federal courts will do this if there's some sort of usually if it's like white-collar crimes, things like that, where the person isn't seen as like a danger. There's like a couple cases that come to mind, like the Theranos chick. Elizabeth Holmes is that her name?

Remi: 1:20:37

Yes, that's her.

Ashley: 1:20:39

She got a delay because I think she was pregnant or something, so she didn't have to start A lot of times too. If a couple are sentenced together and they have kids in federal court, if it's white-collar, nonviolent crimes, they will let one parent serve time first and then the next parent serve time second, so the kids don't get put into like foster care or something like that.

Remi: 1:21:00

Oh, actually that's pretty nice.

Ashley: 1:21:03

Five days later, co landed at a remote strip in the Colombian jungle to pick up the 1,500 pounds of cocaine. He was met by our good old friend Carlos Leder, who let him know he would actually be transporting over twice that amount, causing the plane to be grossly overweight.

Remi: 1:21:20

I am so surprised that this guy never ran into George Jung at any point. It seems like they would have crossed paths at some point, but no.

Ashley: 1:21:30

They probably had. I'm assuming the Median Corps had even more pilots than this, so they were probably just meeting with new people every single day. Although Seald didn't think he would be able to take off, Carlos insisted he must. In the end Leader stood corrected. Seald's plane crashed and was completely demolished, but thankfully there were no serious injuries.

Ashley: 1:21:52

The next transportation attempt occurred on June 4th. Seale's plane was loaded with 660 kilos of cocaine and stopped to refuel in Nicaragua. Shortly after takeoff, the Nicaraguan military fired at the plane, forcing an emergency landing their takeoff. The Nicaraguan military fired at the plane, forcing an emergency landing. Seale spent a few nights in jail until the Nicaraguan government could arrange his release. He then flew back to the States in a plane owned by Escobar. With instructions to find a suitable mode of transportation, Seale settled on a C-123 military transport plane he found for sale in Trade-A-Plane magazine. It's like a big-ass military cargo plane. A few days before takeoff, the CIA installed two hidden cameras in the cargo. This was the only confirmed interaction between Steele and the CIA, but more on that a bit later. These cameras captured photographs of several men, including Escobar and the Nicaraguan minister's aide, loading 1,500 pounds of cocaine into the plane on June 25, 1984.

Ashley: 1:22:56

Seal landed at an Air Force base where the drugs were transferred into a Winnebago camper and turned over to his Colombian contact. Since the DEA couldn't allow the drugs to be distributed or risk blowing Sealals' cover by arresting the driver, they forced an accident and allowed the man to escape. However, he was apprehended by local police who were, unsurprisingly, completely unaware of the DEA's plan. The circumstances of this man's arrest and seizure of the drugs caused several high-ranking cartel members to raise their eyebrows. To make matters worse, within days of his return, Seale's cover was officially blown when Ronald Reagan gave a televised speech informing the people of the US that the government had evidence that the Nicaraguan government was involved in drug smuggling. Although Seale was not publicly named, it would not have been difficult for the cartel to connect the dots. On national television, the president showed photographs of Escobar and the minister's aide loading the cocaine onto that plane and mentioned that they were obtained by an undercover DEA operation, while also appealing for financial aid to expand investigative efforts.

Ronald Reagan: 1:24:08

The Sandinistas have even involved themselves in the international drug trade. I know every American parent concerned about the drug problem will be outraged to learn that top Nicaraguan government officials are deeply involved in drug trafficking. This picture secretly taken at a military airfield outside Managua. Picture secretly taken at a military airfield outside Managua shows Federico Vaughn, a top aide to one of the nine commandantes who rule Nicaragua, loading an aircraft with illegal narcotics bound for the United States. No, there seems to be no crime to which the Sandinistas will not stoop. This is an outlaw regime.

Ashley: 1:24:47

So really quick clarification. I think I might have misspoke. I think this speech that Reagan gave was shortly after Seale's death, but I think kind of the same message was given by, like, a military person. So, regardless of whether it was Reagan or someone from the military, these photos were shown to the public and it was announced that they had information about connection between the Nicaraguan government and the cartel that they got from an undercover DEA operation. So they fucked Seal.

Remi: 1:25:16

Even though his face was not in those photographs, in the video you just showed me. Yeah, this would be like signing his death certificate, because who else would it be? You would know who was there that day.

Ashley: 1:25:28

If you were the colombians, you'd be like that was tuesday, that was, barry was there well, at this point they would have known him as ellis mckenzie or el gordo, but they do find out his name later, which isn't the government's fault this time yeah, they would be saying the fat one, that was the fat one so he's kind of protected because they don't know his true name.

Ashley: 1:25:50

but they know what he looks like and they know where he lives. Like they know he's based in Baton Rouge, so he wouldn't have been that hard to track down, despite his cover being somewhat blown. Seale was again sent to Nicaragua on July 7th 1984 to deliver $1.5 million to Pablo Escobar. He was sent back after this, seale said he was willing to go, so the DEA let him.

Remi: 1:26:13

He is an adrenaline junkie, I'll give him that.

Ashley: 1:26:16

The original plan was to arrange for another shipment, but either the DEA or Escobar called it off and I've seen it reported both ways. But I tend to think Escobar is the one who put a hold on the deal due to the cartel's suspicion that Seal was compromised.

Remi: 1:26:33

In the film. It does show that Pablo is becoming increasingly more suspicious of Barry as the film progresses.

Ashley: 1:26:41

A more detailed account of that TV broadcast was published in the Washington Times on July 17th 1984. So this is what like 10 or so days after he met with Escobar, and this publication would officially mark Seals' end as a cartel cocaine smuggler and undercover DEA informant. Since the DEA had a heads up about the article, they were able to arrest several cartel employees in Miami and issued indictments against several high-up leaders, including Jorge Ochoa and Pablo Escobar. In the indictment, the government alleged that Escobar's and Ochoa's controlled 75% of cocaine being trafficked into the US.

Remi: 1:27:22

I honestly thought it would be more.

Ashley: 1:27:23

Despite Seale's cover being blown, he still wanted to work with the DEA. Since he obviously couldn't physically participate, he was placed in witness protection and told agents about his brother-in-law, Bill Bottoms. In exchange for his participation in the operation, Bottoms was given full immunity against prosecution. The final sting involved coordination of a cocaine shipment from Bolivia to Vegas in January 1985. And Bottoms continued to work as an undercover informant for the DEA and FBI until he resigned in 1990.

Remi: 1:27:56

Bottoms was done dirty on the film man. They do not portray him well at all.

Ashley: 1:28:02

He is very, very loyal to Seal. He comes up again later and, yeah, he was a very smart man and he did not get exploded.

Remi: 1:28:11

In the film. He has basically no redeeming qualities, is a complete idiot and possible pedophile as well, and definitely does not know how to fly a plane.

Ashley: 1:28:29

DEA had increased over time, so too did his resentment against the agents investigating him in Louisiana, who were close to securing an indictment on charges of possession with intent to distribute cocaine.

Ashley: 1:28:35

Still unaware of the scope of his role with the DEA, including how he was now a key witness in the upcoming prosecution of dozens of high-level cocaine smugglers in Florida and Vegas, lawyers and agents in Baton Rouge made plans to use the Comprehensive Drug Abuse Prevention and Control Act, signed into law by Richard Nixon in 1970, to prosecute Seale.

Ashley: 1:28:58

This act made it possible for the government to seek a prison sentence of 20 years to life for anyone who was charged in three drug cases, by arguing that they participated in continuing a criminal enterprise. Since Seale had those recent guilty convictions in those two Florida cases, a similar outcome for a Baton Rouge indictment would be the third they needed. Terrified of prison and desperate to prevent new charges being filed against him, Seale and his lawyers launched a counterattack. First, his lawyers filed motions to try to prevent witnesses from appearing in front of a grand jury by claiming investigative officers were aware the evidence they had was erroneous, misleading and coerced. They also alleged that officials in Baton Rouge were willing to do anything to convict Seale, including instructing witnesses to lie, threatening them if they didn't cooperate and attempting to plant drugs on him. Next, Seale participated in two televised interviews. The first aired in September 1984 and focused on Seale's claims that he was not a drug smuggler.

Barry Seal: 1:30:03

I'm an aviation consultant. This is another one of their overzealous sting operations. You know this is not a conviction of drug smuggling. Nobody's ever seen me with drugs, caught me with drugs.

Ashley: 1:30:18

I'm not a drug smuggler. The second and most significant TV program was titled Uncle Sam Wants you and ran over five consecutive nights in mid-November 1984. Not only did Seale continue to deny the smuggling accusations, but he argued the government targeted people they thought were drug smugglers without any concrete basis and would stop at nothing to secure convictions. The same day the first segment aired, seals signed a plea agreement in Baton Rouge, and this is like really, really weird. He signed this plea agreement before he was even formally charged with anything. He knew it was coming, and so he and his attorney sat down with the authorities in Baton Rouge and basically said this indictment's coming, I'm going to plead this way. Here's the deal they get.

Remi: 1:31:08

A preemptive plea agreement.

Ashley: 1:31:10

Yeah, the agreement required him to fully cooperate in further investigations so these are any investigations being done by the authorities in Baton Rouge, not in Florida Submit to debriefings and testify whenever needed and turn over the primary plane used for many of his drug runs. In return, seale would plead guilty to the charges. But in exchange for his cooperation it was agreed that when it came time for sentencing the amount of time he would receive would not exceed whatever the maximum sentence was that he got in either of those Florida cases. So it would merit and be done concurrently, since he had already been sentenced to up to 10 years for that those Florida cases. So it would mirror it and be done concurrently. Since he had already been sentenced to up to 10 years for that first Florida case, baton Rouge authorities were convinced he wouldn't get a sentence reduction and could possibly even get more time for case number two. This agreement was suitable for all parties. The DEA was happy as the guilty plea and set over sentencing hearing would mean that Seol would look better on the stand during his testimony against drug traffickers and key international government officials. Authorities in Baton Rouge were content as they were positive. Seol would serve at least some time in prison at least seven years, they thought and lastly it benefited Seol, since it meant he would remain free on bond until he was no longer needed by the DEA, giving him more time to prove himself worthy of remaining in society.

Ashley: 1:32:35

Seale's first debriefing with the Baton Rouge Task Force took place in January 1985. It quickly became clear that he was not going to tell agents anything they didn't already know, likely because he wanted to protect those who had worked for him and hadn't yet come under the government's radar. So they weren't really asking him questions about anyone outside of the states. They were trying to get his crew, and that's information no one really had, and he was keeping all that really close to the hip. Like George Young, he wanted to protect those who worked for him and his efforts were successful, as no one who was involved in his organization was ever prosecuted.

Remi: 1:33:18

So he didn't rat anybody out in the end.

Ashley: 1:33:22

To make matters worse for the task force, seal was largely unavailable for debriefings for most of the year, since he was the DEA's key witness in multiple trials and he surrendered to the US Marshals and becamea federally protected witness in June 1985. The only people who knew where he was were a few Miami DEA agents and the prosecuting attorneys in Florida and Vegas who were prepping him for testimony agents and the prosecuting attorneys in Florida and Vegas who were prepping him for testimony.

Remi: 1:33:51

I could not imagine getting in this deep with all this DEA, FBI. Oh my god, this is insanity.

Ashley: 1:34:02

When witness protection was necessary in this case. As the government learned, a hit had been taken out on Seal shortly after that Uncle Sam Wants you segment aired. Although Seal's goal for the interview was to lash out against federal and state authorities in Baton Rouge, it had the unintended consequence of not only confirming the cartel's suspicion that he was compromised, but it was also the first time they learned his true identity.

Remi: 1:34:22

That did not work out very well for Barry.

Ashley: 1:34:24

So how did the government learn about the hit? Well, the same month Seal went into witness protection. Max Mermelstein, a high-level cocaine distributor, was arrested in Miami and charged with 11 counts related to cocaine smuggling and agreed to be a cooperating defendant. In hopes of a favorable sentence, he told officers the Ochoas contracted him to kill Seal in January 1985, offering him $500,000 if Seal was killed and $1 million if he was brought back to Columbia alive. Despite four trips to Baton Rouge, Max couldn't find his target.

Remi: 1:35:00

That is a really, really hefty price tag on Barry's head. I don't think I've ever heard of a hit that high before.

Ashley: 1:35:09

I think they knew that he was the key witness in multiple trials, including any future ones that would come out of the indictments that were already issued against Escobar and Ochoa. So they wanted him out of the picture and would stop at nothing to get it done. Wanted him out of the picture and would stop at nothing to get it done. With Seals set to testify in several key trials in Miami and Vegas, his attorneys filed a motion in August 1985 to dispose of Seals' guilty verdict from Florida case number two. So this is the one he had not been sentenced for. But the sentence would be based on how he did as a DEA informant. And during this hearing many DEA agents testified in Seale's favor, highlighting how he was the best witness they ever had against cartel members responsible for drug smuggling.

Remi: 1:35:58

Like you said, he was a likable dude.

Ashley: 1:36:00

And he did do a really good job for the DEA. It was the Baton Rouge ones that he was given the runaround. They also noted the risks he took by cooperating, adding that he would have received the highest honors possible if he was actually employed by the DEA. At the end of the day, the judge didn't completely throw out the guilty verdict, but Seale's efforts were rewarded as he was sentenced to five years of unsupervised probation.

Remi: 1:36:26

What does that mean?

Ashley: 1:36:28

So supervised probation is when you actively have to check in with a probation officer. Unsupervised probation is you don't have to check in with anyone. Basically, someone just runs your name through the system and the only way you get in trouble is if you've been arrested that same month. His testimony in Vegas resulted in close to 10 defendants being convicted of cocaine smuggling. He also provided testimony in Miami, which resulted in convictions of more drug smugglers and three top officials in Turks and Caicos charged with accepting bribes by drug smugglers. His testimony also made it possible for the government to file a motion seeking to have Jorge Ochoa extradited to the US after he was arrested in Madrid in November 1985.

Ashley: 1:37:13

I'll talk a little bit about what happens to Jorge Ochoa, but for all intents and purposes, just remember in your mind right now that he's in prison in Spain, and both the US and Colombia filed extradition, so Spain had to decide where to send him. In total, seale spent 97 days in witness protection, during which he was kept in underground rooms with little access to the outdoors and no contact with his family. Once his duty to testify was completed, he declined further offers for government protection, wrongfully believing he was safe as long as Jorge Ochoa was still in custody in Spain. He also reinstated the armed bodyguard he hired a year prior to be with him at all times To celebrate his release from protection. Seale spoke to the president and House members during a commission on organized crime to talk all about drug smuggling. This occurred on October 7th 1985.

Ashley: 1:38:10

So he actually spoke with the president. They held this commission where the president and several Senate or House members whoever goes were supposed to be talking and learning about organized crime, and Seale was, I think, the only one they picked to talk about drug crimes, and everyone found it very insightful. Two weeks after this, he appeared before a Florida judge on a hearing to reduce his 10-year prison sentence for Florida case number one. The courtroom was filled with federal employees, including several from that commission, who talked about everything they learned from Seale during that meeting and the federal employees testified about Seale's value to the during that meeting and the federal employees testified about Seale's value to the US government, including how he cooperated fully, provided testimony that led to the convictions of several cartel members, put his life in danger while undercover, recognized the impact his crimes had on society and would be more useful out of prison to continue potential cooperation if and when needed. Against all odds, the judge agreed and reduced Seal's sentence to time served plus three years of probation.

Remi: 1:39:17

Both him and George just get out of these legal situations not easily, but it's just mind-boggling how they kind of navigate the legal system and get through it without a scratch on them.

Ashley: 1:39:31

George Jung just somehow got lucky. He had really good attorneys that were like pointing out all these little loopholes that could potentially be highlighted at a trial. Barry Seale was just like I'll do whatever you want me to do. Hopefully this will pay off.

Ashley: 1:39:46

This sentence reduction outraged authorities in Baton Rouge, since it meant the sentence he could receive there could not be more than five years of probation, since it was the most severe across both Florida cases. He appeared for his last sentencing hearing on January 24th 1986. The judge disagreed that Seale was a changed man, pointing out that he smuggled about 17 tons of cocaine into the States, netting himself an estimated $25 million over his career. Although he felt Seal deserved to spend time in prison, he felt forced to honor the plea deal all parties had agreed upon. He ordered Seal to pay $35,000 in fines and spend five years on probation. The conditions were this he could not travel outside of Baton Rouge unless the judge specifically signed off on it. He needed to carry a pager at all times and report to his probation officer within one hour of it going off, and he had to produce a complete financial account of any business and personal expenses on a quarterly basis.

Remi: 1:40:49

In other words, he was stuck in Louisiana.

Ashley: 1:40:52

And to basically show how he was making his money. These conditions were all fine and good, but there were two more that angered his lawyers. First, the judge told Seal that not only could he not have weapons, but no one around him could either, even if they had permits to carry. His lawyers stressed that there was a credible hit on his life, so he needed some sort of protection. But the judge made it clear that if his bodyguards carried guns and were caught, seal would be viewed as a proxy carrier and risk having his probation revoked entirely, with the rest of the time being converted to a prison sentence.

Remi: 1:41:28

No protection at all.

Ashley: 1:41:30

And this is the one that would ultimately be histamized.

Remi: 1:41:35

What's he going to use? Like a knife pen, I mean? Yeah.

Ashley: 1:41:38

Well. Lastly, the judge ordered Seal to reside at the Salvation Army Community Treatment Center in Baton Rouge for six months, and he had to be inside the facility between the hours of 6 pm and 6 am. The defense again tried to highlight the danger Seale would be in if he not only had to live in a halfway house but abide by such a predictable schedule. Although several agents from Florida and Vegas testified that they supported this fear, the judge wouldn't have it. He did offer an alternative for Seale to go into witness protection again, but Seale rejected it after learning his probation conditions would remain the same. He also noted witness protection was incredibly restrictive and would result in his family being forced to relocate to wherever the US Marshals wanted them to go, which would interrupt their comfort and his children's schooling. I think another reason Seale rejected this offer is he just simply didn't recognize the danger he was in. This is based on a statement that he gave in a prior interview when asked about the cartel's hit.

Barry Seal: 1:42:38

John. There's a risk in all covert operation work. There's a risk in everything that you do in this line of work. That's why the pay is so good. The old saying if you can't stand the heat, don't work in the kitchen. I can take the pressure. I'm not worried about the contract.

Ashley: 1:43:02

So what do you think, Remy? Why do you think he didn't want to go back into witness protection?

Remi: 1:43:09

you think he didn't want to go back into witness protection. From the interview it seems like he is almost resigned to his fate, like he seems like he is not worried but still aware that that threat does exist and is kind of looming over him. I think he was almost ready to accept it. Like this train has gone far enough and has been a crazy ride and with this judge's mandate basically serving him up on a silver platter, I think he didn't want to disturb his family anymore and thought this was probably going to be it for him and didn't feel like moving would make much of a difference.

Ashley: 1:43:41

I think he knew they'd get him either way. In this documentary that's linked in the show notes there is a couple interviews with his wife or widow and she says kind of the same thing. She's like he really didn't want to disturb me and the kids. His kids were pretty young and he thought, okay, I just have to do this for six months. After six months I can kind of be more vigilant and shift up my schedule, but I can do this for six months.

Remi: 1:44:09

So he was at least optimistic. Six months only. I can get through this, but he has to be in the same location, same hours, every single night, and they know where he is. It's only a matter of time. He's not going to last six months.

Ashley: 1:44:23

Seal began reporting to the Salvation Army in late January 1986. Seale began reporting to the Salvation Army in late January 1986. Around that same time, the IRS issued a $29 million tax lien against his property and seized all his furniture, boats, cars and planes. This was related to a money laundering investigation that began in April 1983. While on probation, seale's brother-in-law, bill Bottoms, finally convinced him of the danger he was in. Each morning, bottoms, or an associate, met him outside the halfway house and escorted him back at 6 pm, as those were the times he was most vulnerable, given the predictability of his schedule.

Remi: 1:44:59

Bottoms was such a good friend. It is so fucked up how they portrayed him. I still can't get over that. I'm sorry.

Ashley: 1:45:09

As Seals' fear grew, he and Bottoms made plans to get him out of the country to a hideout in Costa Rica. The plan was for Seal to fly to the Cayman Islands the morning of February 20th, giving him a 12-hour head start before anyone would notice he was missing Due to heavy traffic the night prior. Bottoms called Seal to let him know that he would be late to escort him inside to the Salvation Army. Seal told him to not worry about it, since they would be seeing each other tomorrow to execute their escape plan. Seal pulled into the Salvation Army right on time at 6pm on February 19th 1986. Before he could even get out of his Cadillac, two men walked up to his window and fired seven shots from their Uzi machine guns, killing him instantly. And this is something that brother-in-law, bill Bottoms like, essentially blames himself for Seale's death Because it was the one night he wasn't there.

Remi: 1:45:58

It was not your fault, Bill.

Ashley: 1:46:00

Miguel Velez was arrested at 11 pm after the taxi that was driving him to the airport struck a deer. Bernardo Vasquez was arrested as soon as his flight landed in Miami. Within 48 hours of Seal's murder, six Colombians involved in the conspiracy to kill him were in custody. Jorge Ochoa and Pablo Escobar were also charged with conspiracy to commit murder. So Seal lasted about three weeks in probation.

Remi: 1:46:26

Honestly, that's longer than I would have expected.

Ashley: 1:46:30

Seale's murder trial began in April 1987. Three of the six were convicted and sentenced to life in prison, One was convicted on lesser charges and the last two were acquitted and deported. Jorge Ochoa was ultimately extradited from Spain to Colombia in July 1986. From Spain to Colombia in July 1986. He vanished after receiving a suspended sentence for charges related to falsifying documents for importing fighting bulls from Spain, successfully avoiding US capture. It is crazy that Spain chose to extradite him to Colombia when he was just charged with illegally importing bulls versus all of the cocaine shit that he was charged with over here.

Ashley: 1:47:12

The patriarch of the Ochoa family also evaded the US government and died from kidney failure in 2002. The US did prosecute one Ochoa brother in 2003 by securinga 30-year sentence for cocaine trafficking, after convincing Colombia to agree to the extradition request. As for Pablo Escobar, he turned himself in to the Colombian government in June 1991 in exchange for a promise that he would not be extradited to the United States and could serve his time in comfortable prison quarters. A year later he escaped after getting word he was being moved to a harsher prison. He escaped after getting word he was being moved to a harsher prison. He was in hiding until December 1993, when about 500 members of the Colombian Special Forces, with aid by the US government, surrounded his safe house in Medellin and shot him dead as he tried to flee over the roof.

Remi: 1:48:02

I've seen footage of this online. He was living in a very meager living space towards the end of his life.

Ashley: 1:48:10

Always remember that scene in Narcos, when the whole what two seasons is like built up on, or is it one? I can't remember if he dies at the end of the first or second, but it's all like him living in these lavish, gorgeous spaces and then at the end it's just him in this little hole-in-the-wall house and sitting at a table by himself with his head down.

Remi: 1:48:30

I think there's a meme of sad Pablo Escobar sitting on a rundown swing set, looking really sad.

Ashley: 1:48:38

In early 1986, senator John Kerry launched an investigation into illegal gun running and narcotics trafficking alleged to be associated with Contra forces in the war against the Nicaraguan government. This was known as the Iran-Contra scandal. The Kerry committee identified several companies contracted by the US government to supply humanitarian assistance to Contra forces. Four of them had known connections to drug smuggling and this was information the federal government had before they contracted these companies. A handful of contracted CIA pilots were also known to be associated with drug smuggling. The results of this inquest caused many to believe that the mission was at best funded by profits from drug trafficking and at worst, involved the CIA looking the other way if cocaine was being transported into the US on return flights. Since Seal was a pilot with known government ties, this seems to be why many believed he was connected to the CIA. In reality, the only time he ever had contact with anyone from the CIA was when they installed those two cameras on the military cargo plane. Also, after he died, this military cargo plane did continue to be used by the CIA for their stuff they were doing in Nicaragua and it was shot down. So because that plane was used to capture these photos, it was purchased by SEAL and since it was shot down in Nicaragua, people assumed that SEAL was involved with the CIA, when he wasn't, despite what conspiracy theorists would lead you to believe, and I guess everyone involved with the making of American Made. Seale repeatedly denied having any connection with the CIA whenever he testified in court, which was a lot. There also isn't any evidence that he ever told people he was a CIA operative, although some say he did let people think he was when they asked, since it kept them from asking a lot of questions about his smuggling activities.

Ashley: 1:50:35

Seal was buried in Green Oaks Memorial Park in Baton Rouge. He was laid to rest in a sky blue casket with a wreath on top containing a tiny TWA model plane. His gravestone features a plane and the following inscription A rebel adventurer the likes of whom, in previous days, made America great. And that is the true story of Doug Liman's American Made. What do you think, remy? Pretty different.

Remi: 1:51:01

Lies, all lies. It's not even close to the true story whatsoever. It's not even close to the true story whatsoever. It seems like the filmmakers took the idea of Barry Seale and just did their own thing with it to make it into a fun Tom Cruise action comedy.

Ashley: 1:51:20

They took the conspiracy that was developed about him after his death, that he was working for the CIA and also involved in drug smuggling at the same time, and that's what they turned into a movie.

Remi: 1:51:30

And the fact that the CIA was not working with Barry apparently during all of this and it is such a big factor in the film with Domhnall Gleeson's character. Yeah, the whole movie is utter bullshit. It's kind of sad because, again, this is a crazy story and I think a story like this would have made a good dramatic film instead of a action comedy. Tom Cruise flying planes film, Because the true story is insane.

Ashley: 1:52:11

But they kind of disregarded all of it to just make a Tom Cruise movie. It also reminds me a lot of Sound of Freedom, in that some could argue that it's actually kind of irresponsible for you to make a movie like this and say it's based on a true story, when it's all based on conspiracy theories and misinformation.

Remi: 1:52:22

That's a very good point. You could have made this not based on a true story and just a fictional story that was inspired by Barry Seale, and, yeah, it would be a lot less offensive, as you so eloquently put it.

Ashley: 1:52:37

Or even like have. At the beginning like you know, barry Seale was there was no real CIA ties. This is what we imagine it would have been like if those rumors were true, or something like that.

Remi: 1:52:50

But they provided updates on characters who did not exist. I know Monty again, dom Hill Gleeson's character. He did not exist, but I was expecting him to be a composite of other people in Barry's life. But yeah, he was just completely fabricated.

Ashley: 1:53:06

Yeah, it's a very interesting direction they chose to go about it. I didn't even think about that, how they provided updates on a fake character.

Remi: 1:53:14

They said he got a promotion.

Ashley: 1:53:16

Which I know there's some movies that will like, do that. They're kind of like saying, like giving the feel that they're true, but then they don't also say at the beginning, based on a true story, when it's not.

Remi: 1:53:27

But then they don't also say at the beginning based on a true story, when it's not, and did not provide any updates on what happened to Jorge Ochoa or anyone else. It literally just provided some random made up stuff about characters that didn't exist. Lucy didn't exist. I mean, yeah, it's all just made up, so why not just make it a fictional story? I don't know why you would try and pretend at all that this was based on a true story. It may be inspired by, but it is not based on a true story at all well, shall we get to our objection of the week? Your honor.

Remi: 1:54:01

I object and why is that, mr reed? Because it's devastating to my case. Overrule gooded, good call. In case this is your first time hearing this part of the show, our objection of the week is the most frivolous, unnecessary change made from adaption from real life to silver screen. Usually something that doesn't affect the plot whatsoever, but was still changed for unknown reasons. Ashley, you want to kick it off on this round.

Ashley: 1:54:30

I think it's really hard to not go with just how Bubba was portrayed.

Remi: 1:54:35

That's too big. That's too big of a thing. I would say Bubba was on my list, but that is such a drastic change that I almost think it's too much. It has to be more meaningless than that.

Ashley: 1:54:46

Okay, then I'm going to choose how. At the end of the film, the judge instructed him that he just had to check into the Salvation Army and not stay there.

Remi: 1:54:58

That's not a bad one. I had something partially connected to that. I had a lot of things, but the one I was thinking of that's connected to yours was that he was sentenced to five years of probation and in the film he was sentenced to 1,000 hours of community service.

Ashley: 1:55:14

But you also said he still had to go to Salvation Army to check in.

Remi: 1:55:18

He did, but it didn't seem like he had to stay there. It seemed like he just had to go and hand out food and stuff like that and then go back to the hotel at night.

Ashley: 1:55:28

Oh, like that's where he had to do his community service.

Remi: 1:55:30

Yes.

Ashley: 1:55:31

Oh.

Remi: 1:55:32

But the other one I had, which I think I'm going to go with this one, was that there were only two cameras on his CIA plane, not 50 cameras. I understand why they did it for the film. It was more for dramatic purposes and to make Barry Seale's character feel more uncomfortable doing the next run because there were all these cords hanging down and lots of things that would draw the cartel's attention. But yeah two cameras, not 50.

Ashley: 1:56:00

I had that one written down as well two.

Remi: 1:56:09

I'll give it to you this time, Ashley. I'll think that's a good one, and the one that I had that was piggybacking on yours was related. So I think his sentencing and what he was mandated to do and just the little details of that were changed unnecessarily and really would not have impacted anything if it was kept accurate. But that brings us to the main event of our podcast and season finale main event, no less.

Ashley: 1:56:30

Our verdict.

Narrator: 1:56:31

At the conclusion of each episode, our hosts will deliver a verdict based on the film's accuracy. If the film is an honest portrayal of the events, then it will earn a not guilty verdict. If the adaptation is mostly factual but creative liberties were taken for the sake of entertainment, the film will be declared a mistrial. But if the film ultimately strays too far from the truth, then it will be condemned as guilty and sentenced to a life behind bars.

Ashley: 1:56:59

All right, Remy, I kicked us off with the objection. Why don't you kick us off with the verdict?

Remi: 1:57:05

This is probably not a surprise at all and a disappointment that we're ending the season this way but I am giving American Made a big fat guilty verdict.

Remi: 1:57:17

It is mind-blowing how much they changed. This should not have even been advertised as based on a true story. It is a Tom Cruise movie. It is not based on a true story. It is a fun Tom Cruise movie where he's a good guy and he's flying planes, doing some cool stunts. Here and there there's a zero gravity sex scene. That's kind of neat. That has nothing to do with anything and it's just kind of a Hollywood fun movie.

Remi: 1:57:44

And the real life story reminded me more of something along the lines of Uncut Gems, where this guy had so much crazy shit going on in his life that he was navigating but still kind of keeping his cool and there were times where it'd get worse and then it would go back to kind of evening out again and then get worse again and his life was a roller coaster man and it was not as fun and lighthearted of a roller coaster as the film made it out to be. That plus the CIA not really being involved with him at all. I could make a list and talk for like 20 minutes about all the stuff that they got wrong or changed or just ignored about the truth. But I will just end it with guilty, guilty, guilty.

Ashley: 1:58:28

Yeah, with this it would take less time to make a list of all the things that were accurate versus all the things they changed. No doubt it's guilty. I remember when you had just sat down to watch this, you were talking about Dom Gleeson's character and mentioned that he was with the CAA and right off the bat I was like this is gonna be guilty. I knew immediately it was gonna go with this angle that he was with the CIA, based on all these long rumors about him, and it's unfortunate. I think that they could make a really interesting movie about the real Barry Seale.

Remi: 1:59:05

Who would you recast Barry Seale. If they were to do the film today, or even, I guess, when this film was made, who would be a good Barry Seale in your mind?

Ashley: 1:59:14

Okay, I have two that I could see Mark Ruffalo.

Remi: 1:59:18

I could see that. I could definitely see Ruffalo pulling this off. He's a great actor. He could probably put on the weight. He seems like a dedicated one. So yeah, I could see that pretty easily.

Ashley: 1:59:28

Or Jake Gyllenhaal.

Remi: 1:59:34

Jake Gyllenhaal. I could see him doing it as well. Again, I think he would gain the weight for the role. He's a little too smooth, I would say, but he is such a brilliant actor I think he could pull it off. For my choices, there are three people that came to mind.

Ashley: 1:59:45

I could also see Matt Damon doing a really good job.

Remi: 1:59:48

I do think Matt Damon would make an exceptional job. He wasn't who I picked, but he would probably be my runner up for who would play this really really well. But if this movie was made back in the 80s as a comedy, I would pick John Candy. That would be my pick for him. I think he would do a really fun job if they made it just like you know, a Dan Aykroyd type 80s comedy. I think John Candy would be great If it was made maybe five years before. I think Philip Seymour Hoffman would have done a brilliant job in this role, as he does everything. One actor was sticking out to me who had not really had his comeback at this time but I do think could have done a good job in this role is Brendan Fraser.

Ashley: 2:00:28

Oh yeah, I like Brendan Fraser.

Remi: 2:00:31

I think he could have done a really good job. He's very likable. I think he would be able to do the accent. He looks similar to him physically. I think that Brendan Fraser could have knocked this out of the park if he was given the opportunity, and it was, of course, more realistic of an interpretation.

Ashley: 2:00:50

Well, you get the recasting award, because I think all three of yours are better than mine.

Remi: 2:00:55

Well, matt Damon runner up, though I think Damon would have also killed it in this role. But that is it. First season three. We did it, we made it to the finish line and we're not done folks. We have season four around the corner. We are going to take a bit of a break. The holidays are coming up. We're gonna try and stock up on episodes, so we are not trying to edit and record all of these episodes and get them uploaded within a matter of days. We will be back on the last monday of january, january 27th, with a brand new episode. Should we tell them what we're going to be starting next season off with?

Ashley: 2:01:32

Ashley Sure, and maybe we'll start doing. What we plan on doing in all future episodes is the trailer of the movie, to give you guys a little sneak peek of what we're going to be talking about. We will be kicking off season four with a movie that's probably, of all the ones we talked about so far, maybe other than Scream one I've seen the most and I love, and our first musical Chicago. Slick your hair and wear your buckle shoes. And all that jazz. I hear Thelma has it. I want a brand new start.

Ashley: 2:02:10

To do that. Roxy wants it.

Tom Cruise: 2:02:18

You got connections, I would have said anything to get a piece of that Get off.

Narrator: 2:02:22

Yes, billy can fix it. My client feels that it was the combination of liquor and jazz which led to her downfall, but in a city where everyone loves a legend, there's only room for one.

Remi: 2:02:42

That's Chicago. You love this movie, ashley. I know you have spoken about it numerous times. You've sang the songs randomly throughout the house on multiple occasions. I am not a musical fan personally and I think the first time I ever saw this movie from start to finish was with you, because I just was never into musicals and I think I was pretty surprised to find out it is based on a true story, but I'm going in open-minded. I've listened to a few of the songs to get jazzed for the episode, so to speak, and I'm looking forward to it.

Ashley: 2:03:17

I think this will be an interesting one again, our first musical so uncharted territory and before we leave you, please, if you like what you're hearing, don't forget to rate, review, subscribe, tell a friend and also visit us at Criminal Adaptations on Instagram, TikTok or shoot us an email at criminaladaptations at gmailcom.

Remi: 2:03:40

And until January 27th court is adjourned.