Chapter 27

On December 9, 1980, Mark David Chapman assassinated one of the most famous musicians to ever live, John Lennon. Nearly 30 years later, director Jarrett Schaefer cast Jared Leto to portray Chapman’s life during the three days leading up to the murder in Chapter 27 (2007). This week, we unpack the controversy behind the movie, Leto’s preparation for the role, and learn just how accurately it captured Chapman’s movements, thoughts, and mental state. Complete with a rundown on Chapman’s entire life, there is bound to be something that will intrigue every listener.

Primary Sources:
Jones, Jack. Let Me Take You Down: Inside the Mind of Mark David Chapman, the Man who Killed John Lennon. Villard Books (1992).
Washington Post (1983)
NY Times (2017)

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Chapters

• 0:13 Unpacking Chapter 27
• 13:46 The Making of Chapter 27
• 21:55 Lennon's Murderer's New York Journey
• 33:37 Chapman's Obsession Leads to Tragedy
• 48:18 Chapter 27 Reception and Controversy
• 56:45 Mark David Chapman's Troubled Childhood
• 1:00:54 Mark Chapman's Search for Identity
• 1:08:25 Mark Chapman's Transformation and Obsessions
• 1:20:47 Mark Chapman's Plan to Kill Lennon
• 1:26:41 John Lennon Assassination Attempt
• 1:35:24 Mark Chapman's Court and Prison Journey
• 1:49:38 Mark Chapman's Parole Possibility Debate
• 1:53:47 John Lennon's Legacy and Chapman's Sentencing
• 2:08:03 Shmoney Making in Florida Nightlife

Transcript

Remi: 0:14

Welcome to Criminal Adaptations, the show where we take a look at some of your favorite movies and the true crime stories that inspired them. I'm Remy. I spent over a decade working in the film and television industry in Los Angeles, California.

Ashley: 0:27

And I'm Ashley. I'm a clinical psychologist and forensic evaluator in the state of Oregon.

Remi: 0:33

And welcome back everyone to the podcast, where we cover such riveting topics as a man waiting in front of a building for three days straight in order to murder one of the greatest musicians of all time. I'm Remy. This is Ashley. You know the podcast. You heard the intro. How are you doing today, ashley?

Ashley: 0:51

I'm doing great. Thank you for asking. I actually want to give a little special shout out to my mother. It is her birthday today and if there's any podcast episode someone in my family will listen to, it will be this, because my dad is a gigantic Beatles fan. But how are you doing, remy?

Remi: 1:08

I'm doing pretty well, all things considered, still readjusting to getting back into work. We're recording this early, so I believe this is coming out in February, but we are just getting back into the swing of things here in January and readjusting to life outside of the holiday season, which is difficult but necessary. Ashley, do you want to tell the audience what we will be discussing today?

Ashley: 1:33

Yes, today we are discussing a movie about the murder of John Lennon by Mark David Chapman, and the movie is called Chapter 27. Remy, I have never seen this movie, but I know you have obviously seen it for this and I had seen it before. What is your experience with it and the Beatles?

Remi: 1:53

Me and my friend saw this way back in the day when we were both in film school and I believe we had illegally streamed it but please don't come after me. And I remember really liking mainly Jared Leto's performance. The film was good for what it was. It is literally like I mentioned at the beginning, a guy waiting in front of a building for three days, so not a lot happens as far as storyline goes, but Jared Leto's performance is phenomenal in this film and it was pretty much looked right over because of all the controversy surrounding this subject matter. Even many, many years after this tragedy occurred, it is still a sensitive subject for a lot of people and a lot of people did not want this film to be released and, as a result, I don't believe it got a wide release. So if you did see it, it was probably just somewhere random or online or something like that, because I think this might have only opened in maybe a handful of theaters or less, but I did like it at the time.

Ashley: 3:01

And what about the Beatles?

Remi: 3:02

The Beatles I have a long history with, as I'm sure everyone does. They have been a part of my musical life for many, many, many years. The biggest event in my life that was connected to the Beatles in some way was the first Coachella concert I had ever gone to. Paul McCartney was the headlining act for.

Remi: 3:25

Friday. So me and my four other friends went out and we saw Paul McCartney and he sang a bunch of Beatles songs and it was like a dream come true. I literally never thought I would hear any of those songs performed live by any of the original members, and he did tons of them. And there was one song, specifically, which I think is relevant here today, that I had never heard before, and it is about Paul McCartney and his friendship with John. It was a very moving song and it was one that I did not know existed, but I want to play just a little snippet of right here, because it really is a beautiful song and it is called here Today.

Zola Trailer: 4:07

And if I said I really knew you well, what would your answer be If you were here today?

Ashley: 4:18

ooh, here today. Really slowing it down there for Coachella now, didn't he?

Remi: 4:31

He did. I remember that there were quite a few people that were attending that year the younger generation, I guess and they were very much not into Paul McCartney at all. But me and my friends were all about it and had a wonderful time. But what about you, ashley? What is your history with the Beatles or John Lennon or any of it?

Ashley: 4:56

As I mentioned at the top of this episode, my dad is a huge Beatles fan, so I really grew up listening to Beatles from my dad and Elvis from my mom. They love both of those bands slash singers.

Remi: 5:05

There is actually an age old question that they propose in a cutout scene from the film Pulp Fiction. That supposedly says a lot about the type of person you are, and that question is are you a Beatles person or an Elvis person? Because those are very, very different.

Ashley: 5:21

That's really funny, because I had an argument with my dad when I was way younger. It wasn't about the Beatles and Elvis, but it was about Beatles and Britney Spears, and my young, young, naive self was convinced that Britney Spears was going to have a longer lasting impression on society than the Beatles would. And I must say I have been proven wrong, even though Britney has held her own over the years. That is for sure.

Remi: 5:48

Their songs are definitely about very different subject matter. Was this when her first album came out, when her Slave For you album? Do you remember like the time frame or were you just in on Britney Baby One More Time? Better than the Beatles.

Ashley: 6:01

It was either Baby One More Time or Oops, I Did it Again.

Remi: 6:05

They are definitely two very different genres of music and very different lyrically, but both classics in their own way. I would say the Beatles and Britney. But what about Gerard Leto? Are you a fan of his? Had you watched my So-Called Life? Do you like what he's doing now? What's your thoughts on this strange cult leader of an actor?

Ashley: 6:29

He is a polarizing figure, that is for sure, mostly because of his infamous method acting on the set of Suicide Squad, but I have always liked his movies. I think he's a very, very, very, very good actor. I remember you had me watch what was that really? Really depressing movie he's in.

Remi: 6:46

Requiem for a Dream.

Ashley: 6:48

Yes, and he is fabulous in that he's so good in Dallas Buyers Club and the movie we're going to be covering soon, Gucci even though we'll table that for later. But I do like him and I am a big, big fan of Bury Me by 30 Seconds to Mars, his band. What a banger.

Remi: 7:26

Personally, I did really used to like Jared Leto. He was great in Lord of War. He was great in Requiem for a Dream, as you just mentioned, and even in little bit parts like in Fight Club he was a small character in that and, of course, dallas Buyers Club. He was phenomenal in the role that won him the Oscar. But it does seem like after he played the Joker there was a switch there and I don't know. He seems to be not as respected and his method acting is not really normal. I guess you would say it negatively affects the people around him and as a result, I think his career is kind of taking a dip because of the Joker. And I do still think he is a good actor. But I do kind of think since winning the Academy Award he's gotten a bit more full of himself and confident in making some of these strange, ridiculous acting choices and no one is reeling him back in anymore and we will go a lot more into that when we talk House of Gucci.

Ashley: 8:29

I can't really remember a really good movie I've seen him in since Dallas Buyers Club, like Suicide Squad. Meh. House of Gucci was okay, morbius is terrible. And then that movie he came out with I think it was with Denzel Washington at the beginning of 2021 when HBO started putting movies on streaming directly.

Remi: 8:51

That serial killer movie with Rami Malek. I can't remember the name of it, but we were both excited for that.

Ashley: 8:57

We were so excited for it and it just sucked.

Remi: 9:02

Yes, it was terrible. We can't remember the name, but if we could, we would advise you all against watching it. So if you ever come across a movie with Jared Leto, Denzel Washington and Rami Malek, just turn that shit right off. But I think we have discussed enough about Jared and his quirky behavior and acting choices, so let's dive into chapter 27, shall we?

Ashley: 9:27

Let's do it.

Zola Trailer: 9:29

I believe in Holton Caulfield and in the book and what it was saying.

Remi: 9:37

Chapter 27 is a 2007 film written and directed by Jarrett Schaefer, based on the 1992 book Let Me Take you Down by Jack Jones.

Ashley: 9:47

And, side note, that is the primary source material that I read for this episode.

Remi: 9:53

The film stars Jared Leto, lindsay Lohan and Judah Friedlander from 30 Rock and this movie are the only two things I've ever seen him in oh and a Dave Matthews Band music video where he's hugging everybody. Mark David Chapman, the man who murdered John Lennon, is currently serving out his sentence at a correctional facility in New York. Throughout his imprisonment, chapman has largely remained silent towards the broadcast media, having only granted two interviews with Larry King and Barbara Walters back in 1992. Likewise, journalist Jack Jones was allowed to delve deeper into Chapman's psyche through a series of interviews that revealed the chilling details of Chapman's psyche, through a series of interviews that revealed the chilling details of Chapman's mental state during those three fateful days in New York City leading up to the assassination. These conversations were later published in Jones's 1992 book Let Me Take you Down Inside the Mind of Mark David Chapman, which provides an unsettling glimpse into Chapman's inner thoughts and motivations and also served as the inspiration for the 2007 film, chapter 27.

Ashley: 10:55

And I will say if this is a topic or story or case or person that you're interested in, then I would highly recommend this book. There are repeated spots where it's like three, four, five pages of just Mark David Chapman's direct wordings.

Remi: 11:14

I also want to point out I have never seen an interview with Mark David Chapman and I don't really have anything to go on as far as Leto's performance to base it on, but from a physical resemblance it is uncanny what Leto did to fill that role. Chapman had a notable obsession with the JD Salinger novel the Catcher in the Rye, idolizing the book's protagonist, holden Caulfield, and was even carrying a copy of the book in his coat pocket at the time of Lennon's murder. The film's title Chapter 27, serves as a reference to the novel, which itself ends at Chapter 26. Have you ever read the Catcher in the Rye, ashley? I haven't. I think I was supposed to back in high school but I have not.

Ashley: 11:57

I also don't think I've ever read it. We read a lot of those classics, literary classics, in high school, but I don't remember this one at all. As for the chapter 27, I did look this up a bit and it sounds like the book ends somewhat abruptly. So people were all hopeful that another one would be written, but it obviously never was.

Remi: 12:20

There are several parts in the film where Chapman is comparing himself to Holden Caulfield and specifically their life stories kind of being similar in some way. Do you know anything about the book or its plot? Did it mirror Chapman's life at all?

Ashley: 12:36

I did look up the plot. So Catcher in the Rye is like a coming of age novel. It's actually many think it was written for older adolescents, but a lot of adults are the ones that really gravitated towards it. But it follows Holden Caulfield, a teenager who was expelled from a prep school and is really just wandering around New York trying to figure out what he's going to do in the real world. And he I think he's like 16, 17 at the time and he starts fantasizing about being a quote-unquote catcher in the rye and saving kids from adulthood, which he perceives to be phony and corrupt.

Remi: 13:19

Does he end up in a mental institution at the end? Spoilers for anyone who hasn't read this very old novel.

Ashley: 13:26

No, I don't think Holden Caulfield does. I have a theory about why Mark's time in New York mirrored Holden Caulfield's in New York in the book, but we'll get into that later, once we have a better understanding of everything that went down during this three-day trip and also another one he took a few months prior.

Remi: 13:47

According to Mojo magazine, the title was additionally influenced by Robert Rosen's book Nowhere man the Final Days of John Lennon, which explores the numerological significance of the number 27, which John Lennon himself reportedly found meaningful due to his fascination with numerology and Cairo's book of numbers.

Remi: 14:08

Rosen speculated that Chapman viewed the murder as a way to write Chapter 27 in Lenin's blood, a theory which Rosen described as self-evident to anyone who has read his book. Like Chapman, screenwriter Jarrett Schaeffer had a similar passion for both the Beatles and the Catcher in the Rye, and would later explain that the script had been born from his desire to understand how someone could commit such a violent act inspired by works of art that he personally found so deeply uplifting throughout his own life. Schaefer spent four years crafting the screenplay, but once it was complete, producers Alexandra Michelin and Robert Salerno quickly helped bring the story to life, beginning with the casting of Jared Leto as Mark David Chapman. For the role, leto underwent a dramatic physical transformation, gaining a whopping 67 pounds by consuming a nightly concoction of microwaved ice cream combined with soy sauce and olive oil. Yum.

Ashley: 15:08

In the ice cream.

Remi: 15:09

Yes, it was all mixed together like a smoothie and he said in interviews he would just drink it straight from the tub. He would put the ice cream in the microwave until it was liquid and then add this soy sauce and olive oil, which I don't understand why. What's that adding to it?

Ashley: 15:22

Fats.

Remi: 15:23

Okay, this seems incredibly unhealthy and, as we will learn in a minute, it really was incredibly unhealthy. Unhealthy and, as we will learn in a minute, it really was incredibly unhealthy. Leto had previously lost 25 pounds in order to portray a heroin addict in the film Requiem for a Dream back in the year 2000, but has since described his weight gain for Chapter 27 as a far more grueling ordeal overall.

Ashley: 15:45

Because you're eating ice cream drizzled with olive oil and soy sauce. That's so disgusting.

Remi: 15:51

Well, Leto's rapid increase in weight additionally took a toll on his body as well, causing him to develop gout and temporarily require the use of a wheelchair to help manage the strain he was experiencing on set Doesn't sound worth it, Jared. Just do a fat suit next time. Leto later explained in an ABC interview promoting the film that altering his physicality so significantly dramatically influenced his approach to the role psychologically as well.

ABC Interview: 16:20

Dude, you got really fat for this movie. Yes, I did, dude. You gained 60 pounds? Yeah, I did. I gained about 67 pounds. 60 pounds, yeah, I did. I gained about 67 pounds and it was one of those, it's strange to say opportunities, but it was an important part of the transformative nature of this character. It taught me a lot about who this guy was. It changed everything about how I walked, how I talked. It even changed the way that I laughed in it. It was just a real informative part of the proper preparation.

Remi: 16:53

And I just want to applaud the interviewer on his tactful way of asking that question to Leto.

Ashley: 17:00

Yeah, they'd probably be a little more sensitive about it nowadays.

Remi: 17:04

Once filming had wrapped, leto adopted an extreme liquid diet comprised of a mixture of lemon juice, cayenne pepper and water, claiming in interviews. I didn't eat any food for 10 days straight and lost 20 pounds in the first 10 days. Despite this initial progress, shedding those extra pounds proved much more challenging than Leto had anticipated, with Leto later admitting it took about a year to feel semi-normal again. I don't think I'll ever fully get back to where I was physically. I'd never do it again. It definitely caused me some problems and a little side note here he lost his weight while he was on tour with 30 Seconds to Mars. Actor Mark Lindsay Chapman, who plays John Lennon in the film, was almost cast as the iconic Beatle 22 years earlier in the 1985 biopic John and Yoko A Love Story. Despite being impressed by his audition, yoko Ono ultimately decided against his casting after learning the actor's full name and referring to it as bad karma.

Ashley: 18:08

That makes sense.

Remi: 18:10

Years later, while casting for Chapter 27, Jarrett Schaefer reviewed countless Lennon impersonators but found many of their portrayals of the legendary rock star to be overly idealized. Mark Lindsay Chapman, on the other hand, managed to capture Lennon's tough-town persona and sharp wit effortlessly, Schaefer explained.

Ashley: 18:48

Lennon's murderer.

Remi: 18:49

Agreed. What are the odds of that? I think when I first was reading the cast list for this, I did a double take Like wait, there's someone with that name in the cast playing John Lennon of all people. Filming began in Manhattan in 2006, with many scenes being shot outside the Dakota apartment building where John Lennon had been murdered. Schaefer acknowledged the challenge of working at such a sensitive location, stating I had to bring trucks, a crew and a tight schedule into a place that holds so much emotional weight. It wasn't easy.

Ashley: 19:21

Have you seen the Dakota?

Remi: 19:22

I have yes, way back in the day when I was living in New York, I walked by all the famous hotels in New York many times, and this one is by Central Park, so it's conveniently located if you want to stroll past the front and then continue on into the park afterwards. It is a cool looking building.

Ashley: 19:39

That's where I saw it too obviously, when I was at Central Park. One time my dad pointed it out and said that that's where John Lennon was murdered and where Yoko Ono still lives to this day.

Remi: 19:50

I was unaware that she still lived there. You'd think that she would leave just because of the trauma that place would bring up for her. I mean, her husband died literally right in front of the building. It's very surprising to me that she stayed.

Ashley: 20:03

It's her home.

Remi: 20:05

Out of respect for the residents of the Dakota, no scenes depicting Lennon were filmed at the location. Instead, those sequences were filmed at the location. Instead, those sequences were shot at Steiner Studios in Brooklyn where the team could maintain a controlled environment. Producer Robert Salerno explained that it was important to Jarrett that we didn't glorify this moment, and shooting those scenes elsewhere allowed us to be respectful while still telling the story us to be respectful while still telling the story.

Ashley: 20:31

Side note, I just googled it she actually moved to a huge farm in 2023. So she still lived there until about a year ago. I think it looks like about February.

Remi: 20:41

Is she still in New York?

Ashley: 20:43

Yeah, it says it's a 600 acre farm in New York.

Remi: 20:47

Wow, all right, nice, peaceful place for her to spend her later years. That's nice.

Ashley: 20:52

She and Lennon purchased the farm in 1978 as a retreat and to raise dairy cows, but she still owns her apartment in the Dakota.

Remi: 21:01

And before we dive into the film, I just want to point out that I did attempt to find some information on how Lindsay Lohan got this role and what the casting process was for her. But there is no information I could find at all, and it seems like this was filmed around the time of Lohan's party girl phase, where she was constantly late to things and just out partying and smoking cigarettes and doing that thing. So I could not find any interviews with her promoting the film. I could not find anything about her involvement with this, but that may be due to some personal connections she has with the Lennon family, which I will get to at the end. But now shall we dive into Chapter 27?.

Ashley: 21:47

Yes, let's do it.

Remi: 21:56

Our story begins with a narration from Mark David Chapman, played by Jared Leto, comparing himself to Holden Caulfield, the brooding anti-hero from JD Salinger's the Catcher in the Rye. In contrast with Chapman's voiceover, we watch as slow-motion waves crash against the beautiful shores of Hawaii, until the serene imagery is abruptly replaced with real-life news footage announcing Chapman's arrest for the murder of John Lennon. The opening credits then roll over shots of a hauntingly red rye field ominously swaying gently in the wind. Through somber voiceover, chapman addresses the audience directly, stating that his personal history is irrelevant and all that matters now are those three days he spent in New York City, which culminated in the murder of one of the most beloved musicians of all time. The scene then shifts to Chapman's plane landing in New York. After hailing a cab, chapman awkwardly attempts to conversate with the driver by asking where the ducks in Central Park go every year during the winter. Unamused, the driver brushes off Chapman's foolish question and resumes ignoring his odd passenger.

Remi: 23:01

On first impression, chapman is presented as a disheveled yet calculated individual with an unsettling air of detachment and a quiet but intense demeanor hinting at an inner turmoil that is seething just beneath the surface. After arriving at his motel, Chapman checks into a bleak, dimly lit room with barred windows, amidst an atmosphere of stagnant isolation and utter unease. After a brief moment of reflection by the window, chapman hastily dresses and ventures out into the cold streets of New York City as his mind races with conflicting thoughts of determination and doubt regarding his dark intentions. Outside, christmas is in the air, with festive decorations illuminating the otherwise gray urban landscape. As Chapman wanders the city, he eventually finds himself standing in front of the iconic Dakota apartment building on Manhattan's Upper West Side, which also happens to be the same location where John Lennon, yoko Ono and their son Sean all reside.

Ashley: 24:01

Mia Farrow also lived there at the time fun fact.

Remi: 24:04

And Rosemary's Baby was filmed there, but we'll get into that a little bit later. Surprisingly, in front of the Dakota, a small group of adoring fans are gathered in the hopes of catching a brief glimpse of the legendary Beatle on his way in and out of the building. Among them is Jude, a vibrant young woman in a red coat being played by Lindsay Lohan. Chapman joins the crowd, strikes up a casual conversation with Jude and at first their shared admiration for Lennon and the Beatles seems to have bridged the gap between them. However, the interaction takes an awkward turn when Jude offhandedly mentions Lennon's recently released album Double Fantasy, only to realize that Chapman has absolutely no idea it even existed. Somewhat embarrassed, chapman explains that he traveled all the way from Hawaii to get Lennon's autograph. So Jude suggests that he buy the new album for Lennon to sign. Following her advice, chapman heads down to a record shop on Broadway where he purchases Double Fantasy, though he is a bit grumbly about the price. Chapman eagerly returns to the Dakota to proudly show off his new acquisition to Jude and her friend. While looking over the album, jude points out an intriguing detail that the photograph on the back features an image of the front of the Dakota building where they are both currently standing. Delighted by this coincidence, chapman surreally mimics Lennon's pose from the album cover, standing completely still and silent by the curb for several moments. As the day drags on, jude lightens the mood by inviting Chapman to join her and her friend for a movie later, but Chapman declines, then launches into a rant about how movies are too goddamn phony. As an alternative, chapman proposes that he take them out to a Japanese restaurant instead, while simultaneously boasting about his worldly travels. Jude and her friend are both clearly uncomfortable with the suggestion, but reluctantly agree and assure Chapman that they'll return to the Dakota later on to reconvene for dinner. Now alone, chapman waits for hours in front of the Dakota, clutching his double fantasy album, as the other fans around him gradually disperse.

Remi: 26:16

As the night falls, the cold grows unbearable, with still no sign of Lennon in sight. In time, chapman inevitably surrenders to the freezing New York weather and is forced to retreat back to his dingy motel room. And I just want to say from experience if you are coming from Hawaii, new York winter is definitely going gonna be a shock for you. It is blisteringly cold, especially in December.

Remi: 26:36

Later that night, chapman is jolted awake by muffled voices and the unmistakable sounds of intimacy echoing through the paper-thin walls of his seedy motel room. Exhausted and irritable, he contemplates using the pistol he brought with him to silence the noises coming from the adjoining room. But he ultimately resists the urge and instead attempts to calm himself by reading the Bible. Unable to sleep, chapman gets dressed and ventures out into the eerie, deserted streets of New York City in the wee small hours of the morning.

Remi: 27:07

As Chapman strolls the empty cityscape, he encounters a homeless man shouting incoherently and behaving erratically. Feeling unsettled, chapman hails a taxi cab and asks the driver to take him to a nice hotel that isn't too expensive. During the ride, chapman's loneliness and desperation bubble to the surface yet again, as he awkwardly invites the cab driver to stop for a drink with him, but the driver politely declines. Still seeking some sort of validation from the cabbie, chapman continues by contriving an elaborate lie, claiming that he had just come from a recording session with none other than John Lennon and Paul McCartney. Chapman even brags that the iconic musicians complimented his work that night. And though the driver remains professional, he is clearly unimpressed by Chapman's fabricated tale.

Ashley: 27:55

I'm pretty sure John Lennon had little to no contact with any of the Beatles at this time. It was just him and Yoko taking on the world. So if this guy knew anything about the Beatles, he'd be like highly unlikely dude.

Remi: 28:09

This seems like it's Chapman just speaking aloud his fantasy of what he wishes he was doing that night. He wishes he was the engineer at a recording session where john and paul have reunited after breaking up all those years ago and them even complimenting him. It's just a fantasy. He has nothing in his life that he seems to take pride in or enjoy. He seems very lonely and isolated, even though he does have a family back in Hawaii.

Ashley: 28:39

He has a wife. Yeah, I think he wants to be seen as someone who is important and a somebody because he feels that he is just no one in this world.

Remi: 28:50

Agreed, feels that he is just no one in this world Agreed. The cab eventually pulls up to an upscale hotel called the Sheraton Center, with a history of hosting prominent figures, including former President Jimmy Carter.

Ashley: 29:01

RIP.

Remi: 29:02

Chapman checks in and is visibly more at ease with the improved accommodations as he settles into his room, basking the notion that the space where he is sleeping that evening may have once housed an actual president.

Ashley: 29:15

I also can't remember if I read this in the book or if it was in something else I read, but I read somewhere that he actually checked in to the 27th floor. I don't know if the hotel goes up that high, but I just thought that was really interesting if it was true, and it would kind of make sense with his obsession of the catcher in the rye.

Remi: 29:35

This was not in the movie, but I remember hearing somewhere it might have been from my dad or urban legends, but did he check into the hotel under the name Holden Caulfield or check out under the name John Lennon, something like that, or check?

Ashley: 29:49

out under the name John Lennon, something like that. He did not to this hotel, but there are other times where he wrote down his name as both those names.

Remi: 29:59

The following day, on December 7th 1980, chapman resumes his vigil, patiently waiting for John Lennon to appear outside of the Dakota building. Desperate for some kind of update on Lennon's exact whereabouts, chapman tries to strike up a conversation with Steve, the Dakota building's doorman. Chapman reminds Steve that they had actually met a month ago during his previous trip to New York, when Chapman had first attempted unsuccessfully to meet John Lennon. Steve, however, remains cold and uninterested, by ignoring Chapman's attempts at familiarity. Chapman just keeps trying to talk to people and besides Jude, it seems like no one wants anything to do with this guy.

Ashley: 30:40

These doormen put up with fans standing outside this building all day, every day. I'm sure they just are so annoyed all the time.

Remi: 30:49

There is one doorman who is nice to him and it is stated that he is new, so he has not been going through this for as long as the others have. But yeah, I think that would definitely wear you down after dealing with all these fans every day. Is he in? Is he in today? Is he coming out? He was like dude. Let me just stand here and open the door and do my job.

Ashley: 31:10

Well, and it wasn't just John Lennon and Yoko, although they were clearly the biggest draw, but there was a lot of celebrities living in there at the time, so all the doormen were always supposed to say this repeated line about how they didn't even know if insert name here was in town and they had no further information about their whereabouts, which makes sense for safety reasons about their whereabouts, which makes sense for safety reasons.

Remi: 31:32

I think that's standard protocol for any celebrities.

Remi: 31:34

If they're in a building, if they're at a restaurant, if they're anywhere, the people working there are not allowed to give out the information that they saw them or they know they're there or they know they're coming at a certain time.

Remi: 31:44

And if they do and they're found out, obviously they would lose their job. Growing restless, chapman decides to take a break and walk over to a nearby bookstore just off Broadway. There he purchases a postcard featuring characters from the Wizard of Oz, along with an issue of Savoy Fantasy magazine which includes an interview with John Lennon and, lastly, a pen for the autograph he so eagerly hoped to secure. And lastly, a pen for the autograph he so eagerly hoped to secure. Later, while eating lunch, chapman eagerly reads the Lennon interview in the magazine he had acquired. But his admiration and enthusiasm quickly curdles into abject rage as he begins to fixate on what he perceives. That Lennon preaches all of this stuff about being together and not having possessions and, you know, living that hippie lifestyle. But Chapman perceives him as a rich person saying these things, so he feels like it is phony.

Ashley: 32:46

That is spot on.

Remi: 32:47

That is spot on. Returning to his hotel, chapman hires an escort under the caveat that she will be tipped generously as long as she doesn't speak during their encounter. Though clearly unsettled, the woman complies with his instructions and they proceed with their cringeworthy transaction. After she leaves, chapman is left alone yet again with his spiraling thoughts and momentarily contemplates suicide. Desperate for words of encouragement, chapman makes a collect phone call to his wife, gloria, back in Hawaii. Under the alias Holden Caulfield, he confesses his struggles adjusting to the city's oppressive environment. So Gloria advises him to seek solace through the words of Christ by reading the Bible. After the phone call has ended, chapman ominously whispers into the receiver I'm going to kill John Lennon. Just as the line goes dead. The following morning, chapman awakens with a renewed sense of purpose as he meticulously lays out a collection of his personal items on the nightstand to be discovered after his arrest. These include a letter of commendation for his work with Vietnamese children, a Bible, the Wizard of Oz postcard, his passport and photographs from his travels around the world. It seems like he was laying these things out as a representation of who he was Like, if someone walked into the room and wanted to know what kind of person he was just by looking at the desk. That is the type of person he wanted represented to the world and that's why he left this stuff out. Dressing carefully, chapman conceals his handgun in his right coat pocket, tucked behind a slim notebook, before grabbing his double fantasy album and leaving the hotel. On his way back to the Dakota, chapman stops at the bookstore once more to purchase a copy of the Catcher in the Rye. On the inside cover he writes To Holden Caulfield. From Holden Caulfield this is my statement. Back at the Dakota, chapman learns from a different doorman that Lennon had actually just left earlier that morning but is expected to return later in the day. This is the doorman I told you was new. To return later in the day. This is the doorman I told you was new. Killing some time.

Remi: 34:53

Chapman takes a walk through Central Park where he begins re-reading his copy of the Catcher in the Rye as the lines between his identity and Holden Caulfield become increasingly blurred. Returning to the Dakota, chapman briefly dozes off and misses his initial opportunity to meet John Lennon. Frustrated but undeterred, chapman continues to wait for several more hours while maintaining his steadfast position there on the sidewalk. Later on, chapman happens upon Jude, the red-coated fan he had met the day before, and the two decide to head across the street to grab some lunch together.

Remi: 35:25

Jude apologizes for missing their rendezvous the previous evening, but explains that she and her friend had unexpectedly run into John Lennon exiting a taxi cab while they were on their way. Jude continues her doting by mentioning that Lennon had actually stopped to chat with them for a moment and her friend had even managed to bump a cigarette off of him during the encounter, which only further fuels Chapman's jealousy. Over lunch, the two discuss the stark contrasts between New York and Hawaii, leading to Chapman growing increasingly animated, while passionately urging Jude to visit the islands as soon as possible. When they return to the Dakota, they run into a photographer named Paul Gorsch, played by Judah Friedlander, who has also joined the crowd. While making small talk, gorsh reveals that the satanic classic Rosemary's Baby had been filmed right there at the Dakota, sending Chapman into a delusional rant regarding his perceived connections between Charles Manson, helter Skelter, john Lennon and the Sharon Tate murders. I didn't like that movie why?

Zola Trailer: 36:31

Because it says everyone who lives in the Dakota worships Satan.

Mark David Chapman: 36:34

Well, yes, also because it's a very slow movie. Nothing happens until the end.

ABC Interview: 36:39

Yeah, but Jude, that's Polanski. Well then, I don't like hey wait, wait, wait.

Zola Trailer: 36:45

That's the guy. Charles Manson killed his wife Right, is she on tape? Yeah, she was pregnant, though. Pretty beautiful Hell to scale to John Lennon. John Lennon lives in a building where a film about satan coming to earth, that the director, his wife and child were killed because of a song. That john, oh my god, this is not a coincidence. Today's the day. Today is the day. Today is the day.

Ashley: 37:32

I would be like bye Mark.

Remi: 37:34

He is a very socially awkward man, that is for sure. The discussion soon escalates into a minor physical altercation between Chapman and Gorsh after Gorsh questions the legitimacy of Chapman's Hawaiian origins. Alarmed by Chapman's erratic behavior, Jude excuses herself and hurries across the street into Central Park, clearly seeking some distance from Chapman's increasingly intense demeanor. Despite her attempt to escape the situation, Chapman follows Jude into the park, trailing her briskly from behind. While walking, Jude stops for a moment to exchange pleasantries with a nanny playfully strolling through the park with a small boy. After inserting himself into the conversation, Chapman soon realizes that the child before him is none other than John Lennon's youngest son, Sean. Chapman chillingly introduces himself to Sean and continues by disturbingly emphasizing just how far he's come to meet the boy's father. Sensing the growing unease, the group soon parts ways and Jude wishes Chapman luck in his quest to obtain John's autograph. However, still desperate for companionship, Chapman chases after Jude, pleading with her to stay and wait with him just a little while longer. With her discomfort mounting, she repeatedly refuses until she is finally able to escape, leaving Chapman alone once again.

Remi: 39:03

As the sun begins to set, slowly darkening the city's skyline, Chapman returns to his post outside of the Dakota, where the usual crowd of fans have all mostly dispersed for the remainder of the evening. Besides Chapman, the only other holdout is Paul Gorsch, the photographer, who is still salty about Chapman's earlier outburst. Chapman timidly apologizes for his actions and Gorsch begrudgingly accepts, but remains uneasy in Chapman's presence. A short while later, activity stirs at the Dakota's entrance as a group exits the building. Then, moments later, John Lennon himself finally appears. For several long seconds Chapman stands there frozen, staring in awe at the man he has equally idolized and resented so severely. After regaining his composure, Chapman steps forward clutching the double fantasy album along with the pen he had carefully selected for this very moment. Summoning all of his courage, Chapman hands the album to Lennon and the musician graciously signs it as Gorsh feverishly snaps several photographs of the encounter from the sidelines.

Zola Trailer: 40:18

Thanks, is that all you want? Yeah, thanks, you sure that's all. Yeah, that's all. Thanks, john, you're welcome.

Ashley: 40:42

It is crazy, with how famous John Lennon was at this time, how accessible he was to fans. From what I read, the reason why people flocked out of the Dakota is because they knew if they caught him when he was going in and out of the building he would stop to shake people's hands and sign autographs for them every single time.

Remi: 41:01

And even in the clip we just heard he is very nice to Chapman. He asks him if there's anything else he needs. He says you're welcome, he is being very kind. And it just makes everything 10 times more tragic knowing he was so accessible because he liked connecting with his fans and it ended up being his downfall. Chapman's brief interaction with John Lennon leaves him utterly starstruck and giddy with excitement as he clutches his double fantasy album closely to his chest, seemingly elated to have finally achieved the goal he had pursued so relentlessly. Turning his attention to Gorsh, chapman eagerly offers him $50 for one of the photographs he had captured during their interaction. Visibly uneasy but remaining polite, gorsh promises to return the following morning with the photograph, after he gets the film developed, but Chapman pleads for him not to leave just yet. Gorsh still declines and leaves Chapman alone in the cold, dark silence outside of the Dakota building, with only his spiraling thoughts left to keep him company.

Zola Trailer: 42:14

Nobody, nothing. He wasn't phony. He's getting a taxi, you coward, you, phony, you got your autograph. Go home, frame it, put it on the wall. Put it on the wall. Don't listen to them, don't make a door. There's no place like home.

Ashley: 42:33

Come on, come on this internal struggle is described in the book. He kept fluctuating between trying to convince himself to leave and get himself to stay, and that's why he said he tried so hard to get jude and the photographer to stay. He claims if either of them would have been with him he wouldn't have done what he did, which is kind of shitty. So blame it on these two innocent people that had no idea what his intentions were and, you know, maybe if they would have stayed he wouldn't have done it that night, but he had endless nights that he could have and would have done this.

Remi: 43:11

As the hours pass, chapman's internal struggle persists, but ultimately he chooses to stay and wait for Lennon's return. Eventually, a white limousine pulls up to the front of the Dakota building as Chapman looks on nervously waiting in anticipation. Yoko Ono exits the limo first and makes her way towards the building's entrance, followed closely by her husband, john Lennon, walking just a few steps behind her. Emerging from the shadows, chapman calls out Mr Lennon as he draws his handgun and fires off five shots into the back of John Lennon. After a moment of shocked silence, yoko Ono's anguished cries are all that can be heard, shattering through the stillness as Chapman stands there, paralyzed by the realization of having finally carried out his twisted fantasy. Chapman makes no attempt to flee the scene and is quickly arrested by the police and transported to Bellevue Hospital, where he is placed under close suicide watch.

Remi: 44:08

The film's final moments feature real-life news footage mourning the tragic loss of John Lennon. As the closing title card reads For several years, john Lennon's killer alternated between the belief that he was the embodiment of Holden Caulfield and a renewed faith in the Bible. Today he is a born-again Christian. In 2001, he became eligible for parole as of 2006,. He has had four hearings and been denied each time, and that was Jarrett Schaefer's Chapter 27. What do you think, ashley?

Ashley: 44:39

I'm curious so how you open this episode? And obviously the whole movie is just about these three days that he spent in New York, where 90% of what he did was just stand around the building. Did that make the movie boring? Do you wish they would have expanded the timeline of it a bit to feature more of his life and descent to madness?

Remi: 45:02

I do. Actually, I remember when I first saw this film none of that really bothered me and I was a lot more into movies where not much of a plot or story happens. But upon this rewatch, the biggest draw to this film is Leto's performance and the film itself is kind of like Jude's review of Rosemary's Baby. Nothing really happens until the very end of the film. It is three days of a man waiting in front of a building and it was interesting to have certain parts revealed within the story. Like I didn't know he had a wife and the scene where he calls his wife was kind of a surprise to me. I had no idea this guy actually had attachments, yet still felt so alone and isolated. So it was a neat reveal.

Remi: 45:48

But I think it would be stronger to see his life in Hawaii. I think it would have been stronger to even see that first visit to New York where nothing happened and he was unsuccessful, and that month where he was probably going through a lot of internal struggle of going back. Was this the right move? Was that a sign? I just think that there was more to his story than just those three days, despite what the character says at the beginning of the film when he says that the only thing that matters are those three days. I think that to know this character fully, it would have helped a lot more to get more of his backstory.

Ashley: 46:23

I also think it would have helped understand a little bit more about why he was so obsessed with the Catcher in the Rye and why he hated John Lennon so deeply, even though as a child he idolized this man.

Remi: 46:34

I think it would be interesting to see that turn. I think it would have been fascinating to see someone going from love and devotion to despising someone. It would have been an interesting character arc, I guess you could say for Chapman.

Ashley: 46:52

What I will say. From those clips you've shown me and I've also obviously seen the poster for this movie Jared Leto looks almost completely unrecognizable. The transformation is wild and the voice he's doing is nothing like how he actually sounds. And he was right in that interview he gave. He does walk and carry himself differently. I think it's not only the weight that is doing that, but I think when he walks it looks like his shoulders are kind of hunched in and his head and neck are sunken down. So he's trying to embody how he imagines that Mark David Chapman felt.

Remi: 47:28

As dangerous as it was gaining 60 plus pounds for this role. I do think that it helped his performance. Like you said, it affected his body language. Even something like his confidence was probably affected by the weight gain, and that was coming out as well in his performance. Just little things like that really went a long way with Leto's performance in this and I really think he does a phenomenal job. It did go under the radar, like I said, but this was a performance I felt should have been nominated for an Academy Award. He is unrecognizable, aside from you can still see his face in there, but other than that, his voice, his posture, everything else is completely different and he is the reason to see this movie, if you're going to watch this movie. So let's get into post-production now. Chapter 27 had its world premiere at the Sundance Film Festival in January of 2007 and had a limited release in the United States on March 28, 2008 in just one theater.

Ashley: 48:32

Do you know where that one theater was?

Remi: 48:34

I'm assuming it was Los Angeles, but I don't know for sure. If there was going to be one theater that shows it, it would probably be LA. In that one theater, the film managed to earn just shy of $14,000 in its debut weekend. Surprisingly, its revenue grew by 11 percent during its second weekend, pulling in another 15 thousand dollars from five more theaters. By the end of its run, chapter 27 had grossed over 56 thousand dollars domestically and an additional 131 thousand dollars internationally, bringing its total worldwide earnings to roughly one hundred and eighty seven thousand dollars, and for a film that is very, very, very, very bad.

Ashley: 49:16

But it didn't even really have a chance. It's in five, six theaters.

Remi: 49:21

It seems like this movie was gaining some momentum. They released it in one theater. It did surprisingly well. They expanded it, it did better, but then from there. I don't know if the distribution company began getting cold feet because of some of the negative press that was coming out, but they never expanded it beyond that and as a result it made nothing at the box office and I'm assuming not a lot of people went out and bought this on DVD afterwards. So financially speaking, this film was a complete failure and the director has not had another film since.

Ashley: 49:55

That kind of sucks for the director, because it sounds like it wasn't his fault that it didn't do well. It sounds like it was the production companies being unwilling to take a chance and stand behind this movie. From the scenes you show me, it looks like it's shot well and directed well.

Remi: 50:11

Well, on Rotten Tomatoes, the film currently holds an 18% approval rating, with a critical consensus. That reads despite Jared Leto's committed performance, chapter 27 fails to penetrate the mind of Mark David Chapman, john Lennon's killer, and I just have to say 18% is bullshit. That is crazy. I've seen much worse films that have higher ratings than this 18%. Like come on guys 18% is insanely low.

Ashley: 50:42

I just looked up one of the other movies that we watched that I know you hated Lucy in the Sky. That has 21. So I think this movie is the lowest rated Rotten Tomatoes movie that we have reviewed.

Remi: 50:55

Lucy in the Sky has zero redeeming qualities. The movie is bad, the performances are bad, the plot is bad. Everything about it is bad. This one has a redeeming quality. Leto's performance is the redeeming quality and I think that in and of itself should get the film a slightly better rating than 18%. And I think the film was done realistically as well. I don't think it was badly directed or badly written or any of that. So it's kind of a shame that this film just died.

Ashley: 51:23

If you would have to rate it, what would you rate it? I think 60 is when it gets that little tomato.

Remi: 51:28

I think I would probably rate it around a 60%. Personally, I don't think it's the best thing out there, but I do think that Leto's performance is something to see and I think that the story.

Remi: 51:40

you will correct me if I'm wrong in just a bit, but it seems very accurate, it seems very realistic and for a movie where someone's waiting in front of a building for three days, there was never a point where someone's waiting in front of a building for three days. There was never a point where I felt bored, like I didn't feel like I was waiting doing nothing. They fill the time with little things that give you glimpses of who Chapman is. But overall, yeah, I'm just surprised that this film did so poorly and was so poorly reviewed, because it's not a bad film, believe it or not.

Remi: 52:11

Leto himself has admittedly never seen the film and gave the following statement on MovieMakercom I generally don't watch myself. It's a strange point of view to look at your acting that way. As an actor, my work is pretty much done when I finish shooting the film. It's really a director's movie. I'm not involved with any of the elements once the film is finished, except to support the movie.

Ashley: 52:35

I feel like there's a lot of actors that don't watch their movies for that similar reason.

Remi: 52:40

It's weird to watch yourself I've acted in things back in the day and, yeah, it's strange. It's a weird thing to do Act and watch yourself do it Because in your head it is very different than what you're seeing on screen and I feel like if you are a professional actor, it may even, like, negatively affect your other performances or make you insecure, like you start noticing all the things that you don't like about yourself or something you did wrong. Like when we were listening to the autofocus DVD commentary with the actors and all the little things that they were pointing out in the scenes that regular people never notice. But the actors who are so obsessive about their performance and their appearance, they nitpick all of these little things about themselves. And I think Leto though he seems like a pretty confident dude I think he has maybe some insecurities and I think watching himself doing it might bring those out and negatively affect future performances. So I can understand why some actors don't do this.

Remi: 53:38

John Lennon's son, sean Lennon, has gone on record calling the project tacky and specifically singled out Lindsay Lohan's involvement. Lennon stated that Lohan understood his feelings and, despite his criticisms, they were still friends and he had no intention of hurting her feelings. So it seems like they were friends and she said she was going to do this movie and from what I read, he didn't really tell her not to do it. But it was kind of like what the fuck, dude, seriously, you're going to tell me you're starring in a movie about the guy who murdered my father. It is pretty disrespectful and untasteful on her part, father. It is pretty disrespectful and untasteful on her part. In April of 2006, a group called BoycottChapter27.org launched an online petition urging theaters not to screen the film, arguing that it glorified a murderer. The group's message echoed a request from Yoko Ono, paul McCartney and other Lennon family members to never repeat the name of Lennon's killer. Doing so would only this might be a primary reason why the producers did not want to push to put it in more theaters.

Remi: 54:50

This was a man who felt like he was a nobody and thought he could become a somebody by murdering someone who was a somebody, and I do think a film about him is something that he would really like. John Lennon's widow, yoko Ono, expressed her own personal discomfort with the project in the following statement this is another thing which will hurt me, I'm sure. I would rather not make a story out of Mr Chapman at all, although I sympathize with the actors. It's not just films, though. Everyone's always still talking about it, and that was Jarrett Schaefer's Chapter 27.

Remi: 55:25

Ending on a very sad note from Yoko Ono saying, basically, she will never not hear about her husband's death for the rest of her life, because it is part of history and it's very sad. I am not a Yoko Ono fan of her art and performance work, but you cannot help but sympathize with what this woman went through. She saw her husband murdered in front of her and making a movie about it. She seems almost to like throw her hands up, like they're going to do it, whether or not I want them to, and it's kind of sad. What are your thoughts, ashley, on Chapter 27?

Ashley: 55:57

Well, she won't ever escape it. Every two years, when Mark Chapman's up for parole, she will get a notification from the parole board because she is a victim of his crime.

Remi: 56:09

Well, it is definitely a haunting and chilling story about the murder of one of the greatest musicians of all time, and now let's find out how accurate this story was and hopefully find out some more background on Mark David Chapman, because the movie didn't fill us in on any of that. So, ashley, do you want to take it away from here?

Ashley: 56:45

Mark David Chapman was born in Fort Worth, texas, on May 10, 1955. Shortly after his father, david was discharged from the Air Force and moved the family of three to Indiana. He enrolled in an engineering program at Purdue University and worked at the American Oil Company. Mark's mom, diane, also worked part-time as a nurse to help put her husband through college. Mark was a well-behaved kid. His fondest memories were of his mother, who was incredibly supportive and nurturing, a stark contrast to his workaholic, emotionally distant father. Although he didn't drink and always came home after work, he often became enraged and took his anger out on Diane.

Ashley: 57:24

It wasn't unusual for Mark to insert himself between his parents when their arguments became vicious, or wake up to his bruised mom in his bed the morning after a particularly violent altercation. David moved the family to Decatur, georgia, for a new work opportunity with the same company after he graduated. Two years later, they moved to Roanoke, virginia, where Susan was born. When Susan was three and Mark was ten, the family relocated once more and settled in Atlanta, georgia. It was here where Mark started to be teased and feel alienated by his peers. This caused him to retreat into himself and create an elaborate kingdom inside his head of citizens who respected him, the Little People.

Remi: 58:06

The Little People.

Ashley: 58:08

Mark declared himself king of the Little People and he ruled with an iron fist. When someone hurt him at school or he was mad at his dad, he punched an imaginary red button on the couch and blew up the homes of his only friends, only to apologize later when he calmed down.

Remi: 58:24

Did it specify how little these people were supposed to be Like? Are they action figure sized, or are they like dwarf sized?

Ashley: 58:31

I think they're like tiny little action figure sized people that he imagined in his head as millions of people that he ruled over.

Remi: 58:40

That he would just kill indiscriminately whenever he felt like he was having a bad day. It made him feel better.

Ashley: 58:46

Yeah, and then he apologized later.

Remi: 58:48

He apologized to the little people.

Ashley: 58:50

Yes, when he calmed down.

Remi: 58:51

Okay.

Ashley: 58:52

Mark was a huge fan of John Lennon and the Beatles throughout his childhood. He became curious about drugs after listening to the Magic Mystery Tour, got some acid from a neighbor and tripped alone in his room for the first time at age 14.

Remi: 59:06

And I just want to point out here that it is usually a pretty bad choice for people with mental disorders to take hallucinogenics like LSD. It can make it worse or even start it.

Ashley: 59:19

It seems like at this point the little people were a part of childhood imagination, although blowing them up when he got mad at his dad obviously is a sign of some unresolved anger issues. That's for sure, mark was completely hooked after his first acid trip. He abandoned his little people and vowed to transform himself from loner nerd to complete hippie.

Remi: 59:42

You'd think he'd want to take the little people along with him.

Ashley: 59:45

When he returned to school in the ninth grade, the aloof clean-cut Mark was gone. He found a group of like-minded friends, smoked marijuana and sniffed glue or lighter fluid on the way to school, shared doses of blotter acid in the hallways and meditated through exams, often turning in nothing but a blank sheet of paper with his name on top.

Remi: 1:00:04

So he was just tripping balls in school and shutting his eyes and not doing anything.

Ashley: 1:00:10

Pretty much, yeah. That spring he decided to run away to join the circus. He spent two weeks setting aside his lunch money to save up for a plane ticket and costumes. Pretty much, yeah. That spring he decided to run away to join the circus. He spent two weeks setting aside his lunch money to save up for a plane ticket and costumes bought a one-way ticket to Miami and snuck out before anyone was awake.

Remi: 1:00:26

Why was this such a common runaway thing back in the day Run away and join the circus Did circuses just accept runaway kids Like it was a thing?

Ashley: 1:00:34

I have no idea, and I always thought the whole runaway to join the circus was kind of like something that was done in the early 1900s when they had all those traveling circuses like Barnum and Bailey's and all of that. But Mark did this and what. This would have been the 60s.

Remi: 1:00:49

That's ridiculous. That is not a good plan.

Ashley: 1:00:55

He spent the first half of his trip following around two older teens who taught him how to steal and panhandle. Their goal was to earn enough money to attend the Miami Pop Festival near the Everglades. After about a week they ditched Mark, but he decided to walk the 20 miles to the festival anyway. As he approached, he found what he originally came for a low-budget carnival on the fringe of the festival. He was actually tasked with guarding the food and drinks in exchange for lodging for a few days. He ditched his post after he met Carlos, a young Cuban immigrant working for his dad's restaurant equipment repair business.

Remi: 1:01:28

I want to hop in really quick and just say all of this should have been in the movie really quick and just say all of this should have been in the movie.

Ashley: 1:01:36

After staying with the family for about a week, Carlos's dad bought him a Greyhound bus ticket to Atlanta and told him it was time for him to go home. Mark continued to embrace his hippie persona until the 11th grade, when he once again started the year as a completely different person. There were two events that led to this transformation. First, he was secretly pickpocketed by some random teens he met while visiting his grandmother, which left him feeling deeply betrayed. Second, he reunited with childhood friend and neighbor, Jessica Blankenship, who invited him on several church retreats and introduced him to her religious friends. Like drug culture, Mark threw himself into religion, vowing to be the best Christian to ever live. He handed out pamphlets wherever he went, immersed himself in the Bible and spent most of his free time at religious meetings. He also swore a vendetta against John Lennon and the Beatles. Why would he scorn his former idols? Well, he despised a comment Lennon gave in which he said the Beatles were more popular than Jesus. He also viewed the song Imagine as blasphemous because of the infamous opening line.

Zola Trailer: 1:02:47

It's easy if you try. No hell below us, above us, only sky. Imagine all the.

Remi: 1:03:15

Personally, I believe that those lines are referring to the fact that there has been a lot of war fought in the name of religion, and he is imagining a world where those wars are not happening anymore. It's not atheism or anything like that, it's the things that we fight about is what he's referring to, I believe.

Ashley: 1:03:37

I agree, and I think Mark really wasn't one to do a lot of introspection on things like that. I think he just said imagine there's no heaven. You're saying there's no God, you are violating one of the Ten Commandments and speaking badly about the creator one of the Ten Commandments and speaking badly about the creator. He was taking it very literally and not looking into the deeper meaning behind the lyrics. Mark so despised this song that he created his own line to sing at prayer meetings and religious rallies. Imagine John Lennon is dead.

Remi: 1:04:11

He just sang that at prayer meetings. Like didn't anyone like look over at him and say dude.

Ashley: 1:04:17

Mark's newfound spirituality didn't last too long. After about a year he got mad that a meeting went long and ended before he had a chance to play a song on the guitar. He returned to rock and roll, but this time it wasn't the Beatles who caught his eye, it was singer-songwriter Todd Rundgren. Do you know who this is?

Remi: 1:04:36

Never heard of him before in my life.

Ashley: 1:04:38

I hadn't heard of this guy either, but Mark probably chose this artist because of a short press feud he and Lennon had in the early 70s, where they basically just bad-mouthed each other to the press for a bit.

Remi: 1:04:50

So he liked him because he hated John Lennon too.

Ashley: 1:04:53

He doesn't say that's the reason why, but that's my theory. Regardless of the reason, he immersed himself in this guy's music with the same intensity he approached Christianity. So what we're seeing at this point is Mark Chapman has no idea who he is. He doesn't even know what he likes, he doesn't have a core group of people that he feels connected to, and his sense of identity is non-existent. He's willing to throw himself in these interests or hobbies so fully but then abandon them just as quickly as he picked them up. Mark graduated high school six months early and moved to Chicago for a few months while he and a friend tried to make a name for themselves as a musical comedy sketch group. After returning home, he got a job at the YMCA, where he also worked as a summer camp counselor during his teenage years. Mark threw himself into his job and was quickly promoted to assistant program director. He was a hit with the kids and staff and genuinely loved his work. He worked for the Y for five or six years and was assigned to multiple intense projects. For example, he was sent to Lebanon for a summer work program, but the gig was cut short since the country was in civil war Before he and his team were evacuated, they spent several weeks huddled under furniture while bombs, rockets and gunfire erupted around them. When he returned to the States, he was sent to a resettlement camp in Arkansas, set up for processing the tens and thousands of refugees displaced by the Vietnam War. While here, he was promoted to area coordinator and re-established his friendship with Jessica. The couple were engaged by the spring of 1976, when Mark moved to Tennessee to be with her. He enrolled in the same college but dropped out after a semester as he was unable to keep up with the coursework. This also marked the end of his engagement.

Ashley: 1:06:47

Feeling like a complete failure, mark moved back to Georgia and got a job as night security at the airport, a hospital and condos. This line of work was drastically different from his positions at the Y. Instead of being around and interacting with people, which he genuinely loved to do and was good at, he patrolled empty corridors alone at night. Over time, he became increasingly despondent and convinced himself he was a powerless nobody. As his depression grew, he decided he wanted to end his life in Hawaii, a place he thought he would enjoy his final days.

Ashley: 1:07:20

After months of planning and saving, he booked a one-way ticket to Honolulu, although he stayed at a fancy hotel for a few days, he was forced to relocate to a much smaller and cheaper room at a YMCA hostel. Discouraged, he called Jessica one night and told her why he was there. Although she had no intention of resuming their engagement. She begged Mark to come home, hoping his depression would improve once he was around friends and family. The hope of a reconciliation was enough for him to book a flight back. He spent the next few weeks staying at his parents', with friends or in cheap hotels. The one thing that kept his hopes up were memories of those first few days in Hawaii. He dreamed of getting a job at a luxury hotel and living on the island for the rest of his life. In May 1997, he spent the rest of his savings and booked his third one-way ticket between Georgia and Honolulu.

Remi: 1:08:13

Third one-way ticket.

Ashley: 1:08:14

He does this too when he goes back and forth from New York. He only buys these one-way tickets, so he is just not a savvy traveler.

Ashley: 1:08:25

He's spending a lot of extra money on these flights. Island living was a bit harder than expected. Mark took a series of temporary low-paying jobs and used any money he earned for lodging at the Y. Between paychecks he slept on the streets and spent hours talking to a woman on the suicide hotline. These calls were so frequent that she got to know him by name. On June 20, 1977, he rented a small car, bought a vacuum cleaner hose and drove to a deserted beach. He hooked the hose to the exhaust, turned on the engine, drifted to sleep and awoke to an elderly man tapping on his window who disappeared as quickly as he arrived. Lucky for Mark, the vacuum hose had melted, which he took as a sign from God that he was supposed to live.

Ashley: 1:09:08

The next day he checked himself into the mental health unit at Castle Memorial Hospital, where he was diagnosed with acute depressive disorder, so basically a form of depression that was caused by social stressors that came on really quickly. Within two weeks he was cheerful and optimistic about life again. With the help of his psychiatrist, he found a place to live near the hospital and got a job as a gas station attendant. Within days of his July 5th discharge he returned to the hospital to work as a volunteer and was actually hired in the janitorial department about a month later. While this arrangement is certainly unconventional, the staff viewed Mark as one of their own and not a former admit. He showed true compassion for the patients, even learning Japanese so he could speak to the elderly patients there. He also had a great sense of humor and worked really hard. They liked him so much that they invited him on nearly all staff outings after work. This changed, however, when an employee introduced him to a minister. After he moved in with the man and his wife, mark started distancing himself from his new friends and returned to his religious obsessions.

Ashley: 1:10:16

Reminiscing on his YMCA days, mark got the travel itch in early 1978. Partially inspired by the book and film Around the World in 80 Days, and thanks to the hospital's generous credit program, he started working with a travel agent to plan a six-week cross-continental venture. A few weeks before his scheduled departure he started visiting and calling his travel agent, japanese-american Gloria Abe, several times a week. He won her heart by routinely showing up with coffee and pastries and sending her flattering thank you notes and gifts like a teddy bear or a dozen roses. Glorious showed up at his residence just as he was loading his luggage on July 6, 1978. After a long-awaited smooch, he vowed to send her a postcard every day, and that's exactly what he did, staying primarily at YMCA hostels thanks to the free or severely discounted accommodations.

Ashley: 1:11:09

Based on his superior work record, mark traveled to Japan, Korea, china, thailand, singapore, india, nepal, iran, israel, switzerland, england, ireland and France. The trip exposed him to the beauties of the world, but also to extreme poverty and pain. Gloria was waiting for Mark at the gate when he returned to Hawaii on August 20th 1978. They became virtually inseparable and married on June 2nd 1979. Almost immediately after they tied the knot, mark's parents began divorce proceedings. Diane moved to Honolulu to start a new life, leaving Mark's 17-year-old sister behind. He became enraged when he learned his dad left his mom with virtually no financial resources. He felt responsible for her and assumed a parent-like role. He hired her lawyer, helped her get a job at Sears and allowed her to accompany him and his new wife on dinner dates, cruises and other romantic excursions. Despite Gloria's protests, other than his mom's midlife crisis, the newlyweds were happy, at least during the first six months, before the credit card bills started piling up.

Ashley: 1:12:19

You see, mark always liked to spend money on things he couldn't afford. It made him feel important, like he was a somebody. Things got real bad when he started spending thousands upon thousands of dollars on art. Towards the end of 1979, he accepted a promotion as the printer and public relations representative for the hospital. Although it came with a substantial pay increase, Mark said it was one of the worst decisions he ever made. Not only was it a more demanding job, but he spent most of his time alone sitting in the printing studio rather than interacting with the patients and staff he loved. While waiting for large printing jobs to finish, he often found himself in the printing studio rather than interacting with the patients and staff he loved. While waiting for large printing jobs to finish, he often found himself in the kitchen stuffing his face with sweets.

Ashley: 1:13:05

It wasn't long before his depression returned, this time with a dash of paranoia and anger. His increasing hostility resulted in him being fired from his job after a confrontation with a female nurse, although he was quickly hired back so he could resign instead. Desperate for cash, mark returned to another job. He hated security work. In March 1980, he abandoned his obsession with art and decided it was time to get his finances in order. He got up early and spent all day at the kitchen table churning the numbers. He got up early and spent all day at the kitchen table churning the numbers, realizing he needed help. He summoned his little people for the first time in nearly 10 years, but this time they had evolved into a more mature, democratic form of government with Mark being named the president. He explained the little people to Gloria after she found him sitting at the kitchen table staring into space and talking to someone With the help of the citizens in his head. He actually got all of his debt paid off several months ahead of the deadline.

Remi: 1:14:02

By September 1980, three months before the murder of John Lennon.

Ashley: 1:14:12

Mark was spending most of his free time at the public library talking to his little people and wandering the streets of Honolulu with a drink in hand. One day at the library he stumbled upon Anthony Fawcett's book John Lennon One Day at a Time. It followed the life of Lennon and Yoko through the 70s and detailed their lavish lifestyle in New York as residents of the Dakota. Mark believed he discovered the real John Lennon in this book. He wasn't someone who cared about peace and love. He was just another corrupt phony obsessed with wealth and power. Mark loves the word phony.

Remi: 1:14:48

It's kind of a silly word, so it's funny to hear someone be so adamantly against.

Ashley: 1:14:58

He also started to believe the Beatles generation was all a sham orchestrated by Lennon to gain worldwide notoriety. He flashed back to the prior blasphemous statements his former idol made about heaven, now made worse by another quote in which Lennon said he didn't believe in God, just in him and Yoko. In summarizing his thoughts about Lennon at the time, mark had this to say I remember thinking that there was a successful man who had the world on a chain and there I was not even a link on that chain. He used his music to mislead a generation of people who desperately needed to believe in love and a world at war that desperately needed to believe in peace. He told us to imagine no possessions, and there he was with millions of dollars and yachts. He had all these things and I was in such turmoil.

Ashley: 1:15:48

Shortly before he found the John Lennon book, mark also rediscovered the Catcher in the Rye, a novel one of his former church friends introduced him to when he was 18. Mark became more enmeshed with the novel as the weeks passed. Once his hatred of John Lennon re-emerged, he convinced himself he would actually become Holden Caulfield if he killed the musician. Only then would he find his meaning and purpose and become whole, I think the biggest thing that drew him to Holden Caulfield, which, it sounds like, is why other people have connected with this character as well. It was because of this Holden Caulfield like being in this transitional stage in life being a teenager but having the responsibilities of an adult, not knowing how to handle it and viewing the adult world as corrupt and something that should be avoided.

Remi: 1:16:38

And then quote unquote phony and how old was Chapman here?

Ashley: 1:16:42

25.

Remi: 1:16:44

And still experiencing teenage angst from the sounds of it.

Ashley: 1:16:49

He never figured out who he was or where he fit in.

Remi: 1:16:53

I think at that age a lot of people are still trying to figure out where they fit in in life, what they're going to do, who they're going to become, and his story is not that unusual. There's a lot of people that haven't figured things out, but I don't know. It's very strange to sympathize with this teenage rebel character when you're a decade older.

Ashley: 1:17:14

I agree. I think that the lack of identity and uncertainty about his future is certainly not anything that is unheard of or an isolated incident. I also think Mark has some clear characteristics of personality disorders here that impact a lot of his choices and just ways of viewing and interacting with the world.

Remi: 1:17:39

But his story is not an uncommon one. He traveled the world trying to find himself. He became like a hippie for a bit. He got into religion for a bit. He's worked a lot of jobs that kind of end up going nowhere and not really supporting himself. And it's not an uncommon story that his life is telling right now, besides the little people, of course.

Ashley: 1:18:02

Per Mark. Once he decided to kill John Lennon, there was no turning back. On October 23rd 1980, he quit his janitorial job at a luxury apartment complex and signed out for the last time, but not under the name Mark David Chapman. This time he signed out as John Lennon. He then spent the next week making elaborate assassination plans. He tried to enlist the help of his little people to help iron out the details, but they refused. One by one they rose from their congressional seats and left him for the last time.

Remi: 1:18:35

So even the little people were against him doing this. They were like too far, dude, You're on your own.

Ashley: 1:18:40

That's exactly what he described their reaction being what the fuck?

Remi: 1:18:45

man Like your people are even telling you this is an awful idea and he's still going with it. Those are the voices in his head telling him bad idea.

Ashley: 1:18:54

Yeah, exactly. Instead of being discouraged, he just carried on alone. By night, he stayed up listening to Beatles records, speeding them up or slowing them down, while injecting his own lyrics.

Remi: 1:19:06

Didn't they used to have some sort of theory about like playing the Beatles records backwards and secret messages or something like that? Now that you mention and secret messages or something like that?

Ashley: 1:19:16

Now that you mention it, I do remember hearing that, so maybe that's why he was doing this.

Remi: 1:19:20

Searching for hidden messages within, playing it backwards or slowing it down.

Ashley: 1:19:25

He also said there were times he stripped naked and summoned the devil asking for an opportunity to kill John Lennon on his upcoming trip to New York. This claim was supported by Gloria's recollection of at least once waking up in the middle of the night and hearing her husband from the next room muttering to himself in a zombie-like tone. Quote I want, you must die. That phony bastard must die, says the catcher in the rye. The catcher in the rye is coming for you. Don't believe in John Lennon, that goddamn phony fool. He doesn't even realize that soon he's going to be dead.

Remi: 1:20:00

Gloria was shrugging off a lot of very bizarre behavior from her husband.

Ashley: 1:20:07

She really was, and it gets worse and, remarkably, she never even considered leaving him.

Remi: 1:20:13

Didn't you say they are still together to this day.

Ashley: 1:20:16

Yeah.

Remi: 1:20:17

Wow, that is a very, very loyal woman.

Ashley: 1:20:20

On October 27th 1980, gloria witnessed a drastic improvement in her husband's mood. With all his travel plans finalized, he went out to buy a gun, claiming he was a security guard and needed it for protection. He went out to buy a gun claiming he was a security guard and needed it for protection. On the gun permit application he ticked the no box on the question about a history of psychiatric hospitalization. He also bought a new outfit for the trip a Russian-style brimless hat, suit and long pea coat. I'm kind of disappointed he's not wearing the hat. In the movie he is wearing the pea coat, but I didn't see the hat.

Remi: 1:20:54

He never is wearing a hat in the movie. He is wearing the picot, but I didn't see the hat. He never is wearing a hat in the film and I am disappointed as well.

Ashley: 1:21:01

Do you have a photo of the hat by chance? Yes, here's what Google tells me. One of these hats look like. We've seen these.

Remi: 1:21:05

Yeah, it's a warm hat.

Ashley: 1:21:07

I'm assuming they didn't want to put it on to just have anything take away from Jared Leto's face.

Remi: 1:21:13

It was still cold in New York at the time. I'm sure he would have liked a hat.

Ashley: 1:21:16

The last preparations involved buying two more copies of the Catcher in the Rye, one that he gave to Gloria and signed holding Caulfield.

Remi: 1:21:24

So he brought a copy with him.

Ashley: 1:21:26

On this first trip. He boarded his flight at 3.30 on October 29th 1980. Although he had a permit to carry, it was illegal to bring a handgun into New York. To avoid unnecessary risks, he decided to wait to purchase ammo once there. From October 30th to November 4th, mark spent all afternoon standing outside the Dakota praying to catch a sight of John Lennon. He introduced himself to the doorman and fellow fans as a tourist from Hawaii who loved the Beatles and Lennon since childhood. Per all accounts he was persistent but also friendly and personable. At night he went to the theater with random women he met sightseeing, also treating them to expensive dinners and carriage rides through Central Park. Despite being given the doorman's rehearsed answers about not knowing if Lennon was in town.

Ashley: 1:22:16

Mark tried to buy bullets on November 4th but was told he couldn't get them in the state unless he was licensed and bonded. Moments later he booked a flight to Atlanta and called his old friend Dana Reeves, a sheriff's deputy in the county, and asked to be picked up at the airport the next day. Mark stayed with Reeves for four days. The day before his return flight to New York he asked Reeves to take him target shooting in the woods for practice. Afterwards he told his friend he brought a gun with him to New York, since he would be carrying around a lot of cash and was worried about being robbed. He asked for a few extra bullets, but turned down the standard rounds, instead requesting something with some quote real stopping power. Just in case, he eagerly accepted five hollow point bullets designed to explode upon impact. They're like the most lethal type of bullets Basically when they hit their target instead of sticking, they like shatter.

Remi: 1:23:14

I've seen YouTube video demonstrations of this. It's like an exploding bullet in your body.

Ashley: 1:23:21

Mark touched down in New York on November 8th and resumed his post outside the Dakota. But he started to have doubts as the days continued to pass without any sighting of his target. Plus, he was running out of money thanks to his late night spending. On November 11th he called Gloria to say he was coming home. He told her all about how he bought a gun in Hawaii, went to Georgia to get bullets and planned to kill John Lennon. But their paths didn't cross and his love for her saved him and he wasn't gonna go through with it anymore. Gloria didn't tell anyone about this call, nor did she report him when he showed her the gun and bullets after he got home that night.

Remi: 1:24:00

What the fuck, Gloria? I mean, she's doing nothing at all and doesn't tell anyone.

Ashley: 1:24:06

She didn't tell anyone. I don't know if she didn't think he was serious, but I don't know how you couldn't think he was serious. He planned this trip and told her she was not allowed to come.

Remi: 1:24:17

And she's walked in on him or heard him just talking to nobody on repeated occasions, you'd have to realize that something is seriously wrong with your husband and maybe it's time to get some professional intervention here.

Ashley: 1:24:33

I agree, Even if she was worried about him getting in potential legal trouble which, by the way, Mark had no prior legal interactions. He had like one arrest as a teen for like vagrancy, but that was when he was like 14.

Remi: 1:24:47

This wouldn't be considered attempted murder or anything. Right, he just waited there. Is that the same category?

Ashley: 1:24:55

Well, that's what I was going to say, even if she is afraid of him getting in trouble for, I don't know, bringing a gun into New York which was illegal or whatever. At the very least it is clear that this guy needs to be psychiatrically hospitalized for homicidal plans and intent to carry out this plan and had taken steps to do it.

Remi: 1:25:16

And having visual hallucinations and a lot of reasons.

Ashley: 1:25:20

For the rest of the month, mark made numerous threatening phone calls. He called in a fake hotel bomb threat and started to harass people he thought were rude to him in the past. For example, he repeatedly called a TV repairman and a former apartment manager, threatening to kill them. Not even innocent people were spared from his rage. He even called a doctor he worked with at the hospital warning him he was going to die for no other reason than he just didn't like how the guy looked. He also repeatedly called a grocery store payphone that he could see from his window and when a pedestrian picked up he told them he was watching them and going to follow them home to kill them. These calls continued until his return trip to New York on December 6th 1980. He took a taxi straight to the Dakota where he met two female superfans, jude Stein and Jerry Maul.

Remi: 1:26:13

I do want to say you told me this before the episode. I had no idea Jude was a real person. I thought Jude was completely made up for the film. I mean, what are the odds? Her name is Jude.

Ashley: 1:26:24

I am assuming her parents must have been Beatles superfans and that's how she got so involved.

Remi: 1:26:30

Jude might have been a more common name back in the day. It is short for Judy, which I found out pretty recently actually, so she may have been named Judy and just going by, jude.

Ashley: 1:26:41

During the day's small talk, one of them suggested he find a record store and get a copy of Lennon's recently released album Double Fantasy, since it would be the perfect thing for the musician to sign if Mark got lucky.

Ashley: 1:26:56

Now I do want to say because my part covered Mark Chapman's whole life I skipped over a lot of the little things that were described in the movie throughout the day. Most of it like 90%, was very accurate. So they did invite him out to a movie. He said no, come out to dinner. And actually it sounds like they did go back, but he had already left. He was staying at this dingy hotel on that first night, heard a interaction between two gay people, considered shooting them and instead went to that fancy hotel that night. So all of that happened.

Ashley: 1:27:33

Mark was back outside the Dakota by 9am the next day. So this is December 7th. He was recognized by the doorman from a month earlier, but he kept getting the same routine line about not knowing if Lennon was in town. He stood outside all day holding that album before he decided to find a bookstore to buy a new copy of the Catcher in the Rye, since he's tossed his last one after his first failed mission. He couldn't find the book at the store.

Ashley: 1:28:00

But he did find another childhood favorite, the Wizard of Oz, and it's described as either, like you said, a postcard In the book. It was like a mini poster, so I assume it probably was a postcard. So he bought that mini poster. So I assume it probably was a postcard, so he bought that. While on the checkout line he laid eyes on the January 1981 issue of Playboy featuring Lennon and Yoko's first in-depth interview in five years. While studying the magazine over dinner, he thought about an encounter Holden Caulfield had with a sex worker in a New York City hotel. He returned to his room and called an escort service from the Yellow Pages, requesting someone from a different country who wouldn't talk.

Remi: 1:28:40

He also requested that she be from another country in the film.

Ashley: 1:28:44

For the next three hours. He basically just laid in bed with the woman and offered to massage her back. He called his wife for the first time since he left Hawaii once she left around three in the morning. After a brief call, he opened his Bible to the gospel according to John. Next to the word John he wrote Lennon. So it read the gospel according to John Lennon.

Remi: 1:29:07

He does this in the film too.

Ashley: 1:29:09

Mark woke up early on December 8th and arranged his most precious possessions in a semicircle on top of the hotel's dresser. Included were his passport, a Todd Rundgren tape, the Bible open to the gospel according to John Lennon, a letter from his former YMCA supervisor and two photos of him laughing with Vietnamese children. The Wizard of Oz postcard was placed in the center. He put the loaded gun in his pocket, covered by. It's described as a piece of cardboard. I've also seen it described as a notebook and I've also seen it described that he put the catcher in the rye book over it, but that doesn't make sense because he didn't have it yet.

Remi: 1:29:48

In the film. It's like the back of a notepad. You know how there's a piece of cardboard in the back of one. It was a small notepad and he ripped the cardboard off the back of it and used that to cover the weapon. So you can see the bulge in his pocket.

Ashley: 1:30:03

Yeah, okay, that makes sense because it was cardboard and I was thinking where do you get cardboard? But if he ripped it off from a notepad, that back is, I guess, technically cardboard. That back is, I guess, technically cardboard. He also grabbed the Double Fantasy album and went to a bookstore again in search of the Catcher in the Rye and this time he found one. On the inside cover he wrote this is my statement and signed it. Holden Caulfield Mark arrived at the Dakota around 930 in the morning. After awaiting a while, he started reading the Catcher in the Rye for what I'm sure was the millionth time. He was so engrossed in the book that the doorman had to tell him that John Lennon just walked by after a taxi dropped him off. Jude showed up at the Dakota shortly after. The two spent the day chit-chatting and had lunch together. By mid-afternoon Jude started talking to a woman who was with a small boy, sean Lennon.

Remi: 1:30:52

This is so eerie that this part is true.

Ashley: 1:30:57

Well, this is really weird too. He shook Mark's hand and told him that he was a beautiful boy. Quoting Lennon's recently released song, he wrote about his only son with Yoko. Mark turned down Jude's dinner offer to wait around for Lennon just a little bit longer, turned down Jude's dinner offer to wait around for Lennon just a little bit longer, and in the book it is described that he begged her to not go to dinner and stay waiting. But she's like I'm hungry. She lives in New York. She actually had met John Lennon many times before. She claimed that he actually like knew her by first name because of how often she hung around trying to get a glimpse of him.

Ashley: 1:31:35

Sometime between 6 and 6 30, a group of people exited the Dakota and got into an awaiting limo. Chapman turned to see Yoko and John descending the steps. John stopped to sign a few autographs, including Mark's album. After giving the album back, he asked if that was all he wanted. A dumbfounded Mark could only utter thanks, john. While all this was happening, a photographer who Mark verbally accosted earlier in the day, captured everything. This is that photographer that he freaked out about. In the book it was described as it wasn't, because the photographer was questioning whether Mark was from Hawaii or not. The guy just asked Mark where he was staying and Mark flipped out like why do you want to know that? Why, why, why, why and wouldn't let it go. And the guy's like I'm just making small talk, dude.

Remi: 1:32:26

In the film. He asks him what part of Hawaii are you from? And Chapman asks him well, why do you want to know that? And the guy responds you just don't sound or look Hawaiian. I was wondering and it leads to an altercation.

Ashley: 1:32:40

Well before this photo and interaction with John Lennon happened. Mark had actually apologized for being short with the man several times. He felt bad about it, it seemed, and offered to buy one of the pictures for 50 bucks. The photographer promised he would develop them overnight and meet him back at the Dakota the next morning. Mark then asked if the photographer knew when Lennon would return. He was told it could be two hours if the couple just went to dinner or late into the evening if they went to the recording studio Around eight. The photographer concluded the mega couple were probably at the studio and bid Mark farewell. He seemed frantic when the photographer turned to leave, almost like he was trying to get him to stay, and even asked suppose you don't see him again. Suppose something happens to him and that him is John Lennon.

Remi: 1:33:30

He says the same thing in the film.

Ashley: 1:33:32

Meanwhile, Yoko and John were at Record Planet putting the finishing touches on their joint album. They returned home around 10.45. In a 1992-2020 interview, Mark explains what happened next.

Mark David Chapman: 1:33:47

I had the gun in my pocket and I had a copy of the Catcher in the Rye over the gun. So I'm sitting there, it's dark and this limo pulls up. The driver didn't get out, but Yoko opened the back door. She didn't wait for John, she walked past me and John got out and he came up the pathway and he looked at me also. I heard this voice Not an audible voice, but an inaudible voice saying over and over do it, do it, do it, do it. I guess that was me inside and I pulled the .38 revolver out of my pocket, I went into what's called a combat stance, I pulled the gun up, I used my left hand to buttress the gun underneath and I fired at his back five steady shots and at that point for me the movie stopped.

Ashley: 1:35:20

All right, remy, you said that was the first time you had heard Mark Chapman speak. What do you think about? Well, first, what do you think about that video and how he described this?

Remi: 1:35:31

Chilling. It is very chilling the way he describes it in the video. He seems to kind of stare off for a little bit, like he's remembering it in his head. It's a haunting video.

Ashley: 1:35:44

It's very cold and, matter of fact, almost like you're just reading a instruction manual for how to work your microwave.

Remi: 1:35:52

He is not getting emotional at all in the video. But as far as Leto's voice, I gotta say I don't think he nailed it. I think his voice is a little higher pitched in the film than it was in reality. Maybe Leto just couldn't get his voice down at that register for whatever reason, but the cadence is very similar. I think he had the cadence of the voice very much down.

Ashley: 1:36:17

Seems like they also both had that, almost like I don't want to say a blank stare, but like there's just. You can't tell how this guy is feeling when he's talking about anything.

Remi: 1:36:29

Leto did do a very good representation in that regard and physically I do think they look very similar, the film version and in this interview.

Ashley: 1:36:37

Although mortally wounded, lennon sprinted inside before he collapsed. His final words to Yoko were I'm shot.

Remi: 1:36:45

He made it inside the building.

Ashley: 1:36:47

Yeah, people are shocked that he was able to, but he ran up the stairs and collapsed as soon as he was inside.

Remi: 1:36:54

They don't show his body in the film. It shows him stumble and then cut back to Chapman during the shots, and it never shows Yoko or John Lennon. From that point forward you just hear what happens. So that could have been what happened, and I just had assumed he laid there and didn't get up.

Ashley: 1:37:13

I'm assuming it was the last bit of adrenaline this man had left. Immediately after the shooting, a doorman shook the gun out of Mark's hand and kicked it away. Mark then took off his coat and hat and paced while reading the Catcher in the Rye. Police arrived within minutes. Mark threw his hands in the air and begged them not to shoot him. On the way to the station, his only words were reportedly quote I'm the catcher in the rye. Because his wounds were so severe, john Lennon was rushed to the hospital in the back of another squad car. He was pronounced dead as soon as he arrived, at 1115. The next day, yoko issued a statement saying there wouldn't be a funeral. Instead, she held a silent vigil and requested 10 minutes of silence. Around the world, hundreds of mourners gathered in front of the Dakota to light candles, sing songs and mourn the loss of the rock and roll icon.

Remi: 1:38:10

This is shown at the end of the film footage of this.

Ashley: 1:38:13

A retired FBI agent was tasked with overseeing the cremation and transporting the remains back to the Dakota where they sat at the foot of Yoko's bed for years to come. Around 1 am, less than two hours after John Lennon was pronounced dead, Mark signed this written confession, and I do want to note that, before I get started here, this has been cut down. The full confession was like a full page and that was just a lot, so I narrowed it down to the essence of what his confession was. I have two parts of me. The big part is very kind. I did not want to kill anybody and I really don't know why I did it. I fought against the small part for a long time, but for a few seconds the small part won. I went back to Hawaii and tried to get rid of my small part, but I couldn't. I then returned to New York. I'm sure the large part of me is holding Coalfield. The small part of me must be the devil.

Ashley: 1:39:11

The decision was made to take Mark directly to Bellevue Hospital for a psychiatric evaluation. Everyone hung around at the station for a few hours, hoping the media circus would die down. While waiting, an officer asked Mark why he did it, to which he replied, he was given a bulletproof vest and a coat to cover his face, taken to the basement and driven to the hospital in an unmarked patrol car. In preparation for their high-profile patient, Bellevue had already started blacking out the windows of the unit he would be on as a precaution against potential snipers. Mark's evaluating and treating psychiatrist at Bellevue saw no signs of psychosis during his first stint there. When asked about the murder, he said he thought Lennon was a phony and wanted to kill someone to stop his mind and life. His being Mark Chapman. It sounds like he was only diagnosed with a form of narcissistic personality disorder and deemed competent to stand trial.

Ashley: 1:40:10

In the weeks and months that followed, Mark was shuttled between Rikers Island and Bellevue for additional psychological testing. He was evaluated by more than a dozen psychologists and psychiatrists, including three for the prosecution and six for the defense. The other three were ordered by the court, so they were supposed to be like not hired by either side. Almost all the defense experts diagnosed him with schizophrenia, but the prosecution's experts and the several court appointed ones disagreed, instead conceptualizing his delusions of grandeur as a symptom of a personality disorder. It should be noted that Mark did seem to be more cooperative with the prosecution's experts compared to the ones hired by his attorneys, possibly because he, Mark's attorney, announced they were entering a plea of not guilty by reason of insanity in January 1981.

Remi: 1:41:02

Despite Chapman not wanting to be viewed as crazy.

Ashley: 1:41:06

It sounds like the lawyer is the one that was really really pushing him to do this, and so he did initially agree. No, I say initially. Mark was despondent during the weeks after his arrest. In the book Let Me Take you Down by Jack Jones, the primary source for this episode and chapter 27, he claimed he was depressed because he didn't transform or disappear into the catcher in the rye after the shooting. One night, while watching a movie about Hitler, Mark had an epiphany. The epiphany resulted in Mark now believing the whole murder was a way for him to promote the reading of the Ketra and the Rai.

Remi: 1:41:43

So to be a publicist for the book? That's what he thinks this all was amounting to. Yeah, it's assigned reading in classrooms.

Ashley: 1:41:53

He threw himself into his new mission and talked about the novel to anyone who would listen. He called a bookstore, urging them to buy as many copies as they could get their hands on, since it was about to fly off the shelves. He asked guards and doctors to bring in copies for him to sign and sent a letter to the New York Times urging people to read it, since it was a quote extraordinary book with many answers. He even brought a copy with him to every single court appearance and proudly displayed it for all to see.

Remi: 1:42:25

Salinger was dead at this point I'm assuming right.

Ashley: 1:42:28

No, he was a recluse, though Apparently he was a recluse for Apparently he was a recluse for a lot of his adulthood years, but he was not dead.

Remi: 1:42:36

I would have been very curious to know his thoughts on this unapproved publicity that Chapman is providing for him.

Ashley: 1:42:43

It's really interesting too if you Google Mark Chapman and can find those like court drawings. Almost all of them have him holding a copy of the Catcher in the Rye In his cell. He poured over it and made a list of 50 similarities between him and Holden Caulfield, which he took as signs that the book was a blueprint of his life. However, I'm going to offer an alternative theory here. Mark actually set up all of these coincidences, whether he did so consciously or not. He chose to go to New York and retrace the sites Holden Caulfield described. He spent his money on random women and called the escort, just like Holden Caulfield did. At one point he even approached a police officer in Central Park to ask where ducks went in the winter, just like the catcher in the rye did. Although his plan was to use his trial to promote the novel, everything changed on June 22, 1981. In court, without telling his attorneys his plans prior, mark told the judge he wanted to change his plea from not guilty by reason of insanity to guilty. His attorney objected and requested a competency evaluation to determine if Mark was competent to plead guilty due to concerns that he didn't fully comprehend the grave consequences of doing so. And I would have to agree to the attorney. Going into court without having any sort of plea deal talks with the prosecution and just telling the judge you're pleading guilty is very concerning and no one should do that. That is a bad, bad legal plan. When the judge asked Mark why he wanted to change his plea, he said God instructed him to do it. This was apparently as good a reason as any. The judge denied the request for further evaluation, saying Mark was making his decision of his own free will, and convicted him right there of second-degree murder, the most serious charge in New York at the time for killing someone who wasn't law enforcement. So you could only be charged with first degree if you killed a cop. That law has since been changed. On August 24th 1981, mark was sentenced to 20 years to life in prison. When asked if he would like to make a final statement, mark, holding his beloved book, said I've chosen this passage as my final spoken words.

Ashley: 1:44:58

I keep picturing all these little kids playing the same game in this big field of Ryanol. Thousands of little kids and nobody's around Nobody big, I mean, except me, and I'm standing on the edge of some crazy cliff. What I have to do? I have to catch everybody. If they start to go over the cliff, I mean if they're running and they don't look where they're going, I have to come out from somewhere and catch them. That's all I do all day. I just be the catcher in the rye and all.

Remi: 1:45:29

Everything is so fucking literal with this guy.

Ashley: 1:45:32

If I was this guy's defense attorney and my client read this weird passage from this book as their last words to say during sentencing, I would be like can we please have that evaluation judge? This is not normal behavior.

Remi: 1:45:48

I'd probably just toss my note cards in the air and put my head on my desk at this point.

Ashley: 1:45:53

After sentencing, mark was first taken to Downstate Correctional Facility, where he learned he would be serving his time at Attica. He completely panicked. Not only was Attica the site of the bloodiest prison riot in US history, but Lennon's first public appearance after immigrating to the States in 1971 was a benefit concert for the survivors and families of the prisoners killed during the riot. He even wrote a song about it, called Attica State. What a waste of human power.

Zola Trailer: 1:46:34

What a waste of human life. Shoot the prisoners in the tower 43, for we don't mind. Attica State, attica State.

Remi: 1:46:59

Oh my god, they are going to murder him. I would be scared shitless. It's a good song too.

Ashley: 1:47:08

Gloria quit her job and moved near the prison in upstate New York. She found a job at a department store, rented a place with members of her church and was prepared to wait for Mark as long as she needed to. She visited him nearly every single day. That is until Mark started to refuse her visit sometime in 1982.

Ashley: 1:47:28

In Jones' book, mark describes a prolonged period of alleged demon possession. He said he swapped out his light bulbs for red ones, yelled to the devil all day and night, wrote hymns to his demons, refused to come out of his cell except for the occasional shower, destroyed any prison property he could get his hands on and sometimes even stripped naked and hung from the bars of his cell. In February 1982, he was admitted to a psychiatric unit at a hospital following a 26-day fast. The New York Supreme Court actually granted an order allowing him to be force-fed with tubes Per Mark. He continued to be plagued by demons until he performed a series of solo prison exorcisms in 1985 with the help of an outside minister who prayed at prearranged times. All that sounds like a lot of bullshit to me.

Remi: 1:48:19

I think Emily Rose would have a problem with that statement. It's not that easy to get exorcised.

Ashley: 1:48:25

Finally, around 1990, Mark started to improve. During a 1992 interview with Larry King, he claimed God cured him of his schizophrenia.

Mark David Chapman: 1:48:37

What Mark got you better? What cured what you believe was schizophrenia? Well, not medication and not doctors, but the Lord. I've walked in the power of the Lord now for a number of years.

Ashley: 1:48:54

In case anyone is curious, that's not how schizophrenia gets cured. Mark was held in a solitary confinement unit for violent and at-risk prisoners, mostly in part due to concerns that he would be harmed by John Lennon fans and general population.

Remi: 1:49:11

Seems likely.

Ashley: 1:49:13

From 1989 to 1994, he only had three minor incidences for delaying count or refusing to follow an order. Essentially, if you don't get out of your bed and stand in front of your cell door stand where you can be clearly seen during count you can get in trouble, and they can do this very, very early in the morning. So it sounds like that's probably what all of the three charges were for.

Remi: 1:49:37

Like Shawshank Redemption.

Ashley: 1:49:38

He also worked as a legal clerk and kitchen helper. He refused press interviews for the first six years of his sentence. The first interview was to a reporter from People magazine, which was published in 1987. In 1992, he supplied taped interviews to Jack Jones, who he met through a volunteer service group. These tapes were used to write the biography. That December, mark gave his only televised interviews he's ever given to Barbara Walters for 2020 and Larry King for Larry King Live, in to Barbara Walters for 2020 and Larry King for Larry King Live. On the heels of his first parole hearing in 2000, he sent a series of audio tapes to a court TV program called Mugshots, at Jones's urging.

Ashley: 1:50:21

By law, mark is required to have a parole hearing every two years since he completed his minimum sentence of 20 years in 2000. He has been denied 13 times. Yoko Ono wrote letters for several of these hearings. In them, she asked the parole board to keep him in prison for the rest of his life, as she and her kids would never feel safe if he was released. During one of his earlier hearings, it came out that he contemplated killing other public figures. It came out that he contemplated killing other public figures including David Bowie, johnny Carson, elizabeth Taylor, paul McCartney, jackie Kennedy and Ronald Reagan In 2010,. He said the only criteria for being on his kill list was being famous, and he chose John Lennon out of convenience.

Ashley: 1:51:06

While all these reasons are certainly understandable for denying someone parole, not all the justifications the parole board has identified for doing so are quite as sound. In my opinion. Most of the denials, especially those within the past 10 years, cite the impact the crime had on society and they believe releasing him would quote deprecate the seriousness of the crime and serve to undermine respect for the law. End quote. I get that this explanation might sound good on its face, but the facts of the crime are never going to change. If you deny someone for parole because of the nature of a crime that happened 40 years ago and if that's really your primary and only justification for doing so, what is even the point of having a hearing in the first place? More egregiously, the board has more than once said that releasing him would not be in his own best interest, since there are many people who want to have him killed. The board has also cited his lack of access to anger management treatment, which isn't totally fair, since he is on a unit for at-risk prisoners. For safety reasons, he is prohibited from participating in programs open to the general population. This includes anger management and re-entry groups. So he's kind of at a catch-22 here. He is being rated negatively because he's not doing these programs, but he also can't because of his status as needing protection.

Ashley: 1:52:30

69-year-old Mark Chapman is currently incarcerated at Greenhaven Correctional Facility. He joined the family reunion program in 2014 and is allowed regular conjugal visits with his wife, gloria. This allows them to spend 44 hours alone together in an on-grounds trailer equipped with a kitchen, bathroom and bedroom. He also gets occasional visits from his sister clergy and a few friends. His next parole hearing is scheduled for August 2025. What do you think, remy? Do you think Mark Chapman will ever be released?

Remi: 1:53:03

I was going to say no, but then I remembered that the guy who tried to kill Ronald Reagan was eventually paroled, I think kind of recently, the past couple years or something like that and if someone who can attempt to assassinate the president can get out of jail eventually, I think Chapman may see the outside of a prison someday Whether or not it's this year, I don't know, though, so I'm't know though, so I'm going to disagree.

Ashley: 1:53:32

I don't think they're ever going to let Mark Chapman out of prison.

Ashley: 1:53:39

I don't think the board wants to deal with the ramifications that not only people who live in whatever community Mark would settle in would have, but the entire world would have.

Ashley: 1:53:48

The main difference between him and Hinckley our Hinckley was found not guilty by reason of insanity, so he wasn't sentenced to prison. He was sentenced to a psychiatric hospital, which in most cases people that do pursue that plea end up serving more time than they could for the max sentence. But even in Hinckley's case, it was a couple years ago that I think he was released and it involved a long gradual step down process so he would be allowed to go on day passes and then gradually overnight passes with his parents. And even when he was released I actually don't know if he was released right to home or if it was to like a lower level facility. That's how it's done in Oregonregon you would go to, not the big state hospital but, like a resident, a locked residential facility and then to a group home and then to your own home. And I'm fairly certain hinkley is going to be followed by the like mental health parole board for the rest of his life.

Remi: 1:54:46

So if he fucks up at all, he can go straight back to the hospital I don't think he's like free as a bird out in the world doing whatever he wants. I think he has a place where he is still kind of under watch, but he's able to come and go more freely. But I didn't realize the whole insanity plea. That does make a difference in both cases. So I think you're right on this. Actually, I don't think Chapman's ever going to get out. So I think you're right on this. Actually I don't think Chapman's ever going to get out.

Ashley: 1:55:11

Mark Chapman isn't the only convict who inserted himself into Yoko Ono's life. In June 1983, it was announced that several of John Lennon's diaries, including the one he kept up until his death, were stolen from her home six months after he was killed. Also missing were an unpublished novel, poetry, clothing, love letters between the two and a slew of electronic equipment.

Remi: 1:55:35

This poor woman six months later. Fuck, that's terrible Losing your husband and then getting robbed of some of your precious possessions that are from him.

Ashley: 1:55:45

And it gets worse when you learn who took it. The stolen possessions were kept secret until former employee Fred Seaman, so I wonder if that's the Freddy that they mentioned in the movie.

Remi: 1:55:59

That seems very likely.

Ashley: 1:56:02

He pled guilty to second degree larceny in June 1983. He was sentenced to five years of probation and ordered to return all the stolen property, but the last diary John Lennon wrote was still missing. He was also required to return and surrender the rights to the 374 pictures he took of the Lennon family, refund the profits he made from selling the stolen letters, which I think is the most egregious, to take these private writings from these two and pay undisclosed damages. That last diary remained missing for over 30 years. In 2017, lawyers sorting through the stock of a bankrupt Berlin auction house stumbled upon 100 items believed to belong to John Lennon and Yoko Ono. In addition to the missing diary, yoko personally identified more items that were again stolen from her in 2006, including a 1965 recording of a Beatles concert, more diaries, several pairs of John Lennon's glasses and a cigarette case. Police learned a 59-year-old man from Germany, only identified as Erhan G, commissioned the auction house to sell the items in 2014 and got an upfront payment of about $885,000. More items were found in his car when he was arrested. His accomplice was believed to be a former employee of Yoko's, but he was living in Turkey at the time and couldn't be extradited. Thank God, it sounds like that is the last time someone has stolen something from poor Yoko Ono.

Ashley: 1:57:36

The murder of John Lennon inspired songs from superstar musicians, including all three of his former bandmates, queen, elton John and the Rolling Stones. His death also served as the inspiration for many books, including at least two from Stephen King the Dark Half and Misery, in which Annie Wilkes claims to be the protagonist's number one fan. In the summer of 1992, king was actually stalked by a John Lennon fan who, noting the lookalike parents to Mark Chapman, accused the author of being the true killer. He even went to King's hometown in Maine and hung posters saying photos prove Stephen King, not Mark Chapman, getting John Lennon's autograph. No joke, folks. In April 1984, construction began on Strawberry Fields, a 2.5 acre section in Central Park dedicated to John Lennon. Some of his remains were even scattered. Where the memorial was cremated, the focal point is a circular mosaic with Imagine written in the middle.

Remi: 1:58:37

Which I have been to and seen several times. It's very beautiful.

Ashley: 1:58:41

Yoko contributed over a million dollars for the landscaping and upkeep. Strawberry Fields was dedicated to John Lennon on October 9th 1985, what would have been his 45th birthday. The memorial is often covered with flowers, candles and other trinkets left by fans To this day. Tributes are held for John Lennon all over the world, including at Strawberry Fields. They take place on October 9th, the date of his birth, and December 8th, the date of his death, and that is the true story of Jarrett Schaefer's Chapter 27.

Remi: 1:59:15

A very accurate portrayal of those three days, but I do really wish we had gotten the full story. Chapman's life is an interesting life and I think that there would have been very creative ways you could portray some of his mental illness symptoms on film, and I think it is a shame that this film limits everything to just those three days.

Ashley: 1:59:40

I think you could have even started with him at the library finding that book dialogue between I don't know him and Gloria, or just even voiceover, if they wanted to be lazy in his head, kind of build up about how you know he never really found a niche and even though he's married and loves his wife, he hates his job and is just miserable. But then you would have had all of his like real dissent down into such rage against someone who was nice to him.

Remi: 2:00:13

The movie leaves a lot of his motivations unclear and I think hearing his life story you understand a little bit more of this guy's mind frame and where he was at in life and his discontent with everything that I think would have been very important and helpful to include in the film. Again, we don't have to see his entire childhood or anything like that, but to see the descent a little bit more and to understand it would have been helpful. I think.

Ashley: 2:00:43

Well, with that shall we get to our objection of the week.

Remi: 2:00:48

Your Honor, I object. And why is that, Mr reed? Because it's devastating to my case.

Ashley: 2:00:53

Overrule, good call all right, remy, why don't you kick us off?

Remi: 2:00:59

and just a quick reminder to everyone. Our objection of the week is not the biggest change, it is the most unnecessary, superfluous change made in the film. So mine, mine, for this week, for chapter 27,. I have three, actually, and two of them I believe I know why the change was made, but I will save those two anyway. But they're not my official pick. My official pick will be the last one. The interview in the magazine in the film is, I believe, savoy.

Remi: 2:01:27

Fantasy Magazine and real life. It was Playboy. I think this was a rights thing. I don't think Playboy wanted their magazine to be associated with this film, which is understandable.

Ashley: 2:01:38

I had that too and I wrote in parentheses copyright question mark. So yeah, that's seems. I would be really surprised if that was not the reason the name was changed.

Remi: 2:01:48

And the other one I had was the Todd Rundgren tape that was left on the desk before he left to assassinate John Lennon. It was not in the film. Again, I assume they couldn't get permission from Todd's estate. I don't know if he's alive or dead, but I assume, again, they didn't want to be associated with this. But my official selection for the objection of the week is no hat. There was no hat. He should have had a hat. It was cold. He didn't have to be wearing it during the photo or key moments, but it is very clearly stated.

Remi: 2:02:27

He had a hat during certain points and in the film he did not have a hat. That is my objection.

Ashley: 2:02:36

That's a good one. I was actually kind of worried you're going to take mine, but you didn't. I didn't write down the hat thing.

Remi: 2:02:42

I wrote it down and then crossed it off because I thought he only had the hat on the first trip to New York. But you did confirm a hat was in his possession when he was arrested so they excluded the hat.

Ashley: 2:02:53

There was somewhere in the book, too, where he like commented on his hat. I think it was either maybe when he almost met John Lennon or when he did. But he's like John Lennon's going to think I'm stupid because I'm wearing this stupid hat. So the hat was definitely there. Mine is that he asked a cab driver about the ducks instead of a cop in Central Park.

Remi: 2:03:16

I almost picked that one as well. I didn't write that one down, but I noticed that one and I actually thought you were going to pick that one, so I purposely did not choose it. But mine is the hat, but that might just be because I think it's a great hat and shouldn't have been excluded from the film.

Ashley: 2:03:32

I assume they did it, because it would be really distracting if Jared Leto was just walking around with this hat and he just looks so different already. I assume it was for looks, do you not think that's played a role?

Remi: 2:03:46

I think that probably did play a role. I think they wanted you to be able to see his full face and everything, so I'll give it to you. I'm going to give it to you under protest, because I think that hat deserved some representation on film. But yes, the duck question is the winner for this week and with that let's get into our verdict.

Announcer: 2:04:09

At the conclusion of each episode, our hosts will deliver a verdict based on the film's accuracy. If the film is an honest portrayal of the events, then it will earn a not guilty verdict. If the adaptation is mostly factual but creative liberties were taken for the sake of entertainment, the film will be declared a mistrial. But if the film ultimately strays too far from the truth, then it will be condemned as guilty and sentenced to a life behind bars.

Remi: 2:04:37

Ashley, I started last time, so how about you start things this time? What is your verdict?

Ashley: 2:04:44

I think this is really, really easy and it might be one of the ones that there was really not a question in my mind when you were five minutes into describing what was happening in this movie. It is obviously not guilty. It sounds like these three days that were covered in this film are almost word for word exactly what happened, what he did, who he talked to, even specific things he said. Really, the only thing that I really stuck out was that helter skelter, charles Manson rant. I didn't see anything about him going off like that in the book. It doesn't mean it wasn't running through his head or something like that, but other than that it is a very accurate representation of this guy's last three days.

Remi: 2:05:32

The court is in agreement this week. Not guilty on this side as well. As far as covering those three days. It's incredibly detailed and incredibly accurate, and I do think Leto's performance is amazing, even though I don't think he quite had the voice down. He is physically transformed into Chapman and I think several things in the film from when I originally saw them and I had assumed were made up including Jude turned out to also be factual. So I think this is a no-brainer. This gets a not guilty from me as well. We are in agreement, ashley Bravo to us. Not guilty from me as well.

Ashley: 2:06:11

We are in agreement, Ashley. Bravo to us and bravo for chapter 27,. Despite your 18% Rotten.

Remi: 2:06:25

Tomatoes warning. You are our first not guilty verdict of season four. First not guilty of season four. It's been a rough season so far, I guess, so a little bit of repercussions for not making any money and only having 18% on Rotten Tomatoes. You get Not Guilty from our podcast, but beyond chapter 27,. Let's look at chapter 28. What's happening two weeks from now, ashley?

Ashley: 2:06:51

We are going to be covering a movie that probably a lot of people have not seen or heard of, which is a travesty. Remy and I stumbled upon it not that long ago and it is so, so, so good, and by our favorite production company again, a24. It is called Zola. What's Zola about? Remy again.

Remi: 2:07:10

A24. It is called Zola. What's Zola about? Remy Zola is based on a series of tweets from a woman on Twitter and we saw this film, not realizing that it was based on a true story. I think we kind of figured it out as we went along and mainly because it was an A24 film and it is a crazy wild ride. It is the story of this one woman who is a exotic dancer and her weekend with this other woman who is a little trashy, and the insanity that occurs and a lot of illegal things happen, and it is going to be a very interesting episode that I'm looking forward to talking about. So, yeah, two weeks from now, zola.

Ashley: 2:07:56

And stick around at the very end for a little snippet of what you're in for with Zola.

Remi: 2:08:02

And until then, thank you for joining us. Please tell a friend if you enjoyed what you heard, and court is adjourned what you heard, and court is adjourned.

Zola Trailer: 2:08:18

Hey, last month I went dancing at this cute spot in Florida where my roommate's girl made like five G's a night. We just met yesterday and you're already trying to take ho trips together. Be ready by two. You want to hear a story about how me and this bitch fell out. It's kind of long but it's full of suspense you want to go somewhere with me. Dear Heavenly Father, we come to you thanking you today for all the bounties that you bestowed upon us. Jesus, this brings you to Tampa. We making some shmoney Making that shmoney. Facts.

Ashley: 2:09:00

Hey, damn cute. From here on out, watch every move this bitch make.