Monster

Charlize Theron transformed herself and won an Oscar for her portrayal of Aileen Wuornos in Monster (2003). She managed to bring a side of humanity to a woman who was a societal outcast and brutally murdered seven men from November 30, 1989 to November 18, 1990. But who was the real Aileen Wuornos? Was she a mentally unstable damaged soul, as depicted in the film? Or was she a ruthless sociopath who would stop at nothing to get what she thought she deserved? Tune in this week to learn all about Patty Jenkins’s directorial debut and the true story of America’s most notorious female serial killer.

Primary Source:

Russell, Sue. Lethal Intent. Kensington Publishing Corporation (2002)

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Chapters

• 0:19 Introduction to Criminal Adaptations
• 1:19 Meet Charlize Theron's Transformation
• 5:45 Monster's Creation and Development
• 14:31 Eileen Wuornos: Early Life Traumas
• 28:47 Meeting Selby and First Murder
• 58:10 Desperate for Money, More Killings Begin
• 1:28:10 The Truth About Tyra Moore
• 1:45:50 Arrest, Trial and Execution
• 2:09:34 Final Verdict and Upcoming Episodes

Transcript

Ashley: 0:14

Welcome to Criminal Adaptations, the show where we take a look at some of your favorite movies and the true crime stories that inspired them. I'm Ashley. I'm a clinical psychologist and forensic evaluator in the state of Oregon.

Remi: 0:27

And I'm Remy. I spent over a decade working in the film and television industry in Los Angeles, California.

Ashley: 0:34

And welcome back everyone. We thoroughly hope you enjoyed our episode from two weeks ago about a diabolical cult leader. We have another evil person to talk about today, but this time it's a woman. Remy, how are you doing today?

Remi: 0:52

I am doing pretty A-OK, I must say, and I also wanted to give a quick shout out before we get started, to my father's wife, debra. She is a longtime listener of the show and a big fan and we really appreciate it and me and Ashley truly hope to meet you in person someday. But let's get into the episode for today. Today we are discussing Monster, which is the story of Eileen Wuornos. Ashley, are you familiar with Miss Wuornos?

Ashley: 1:22

I have seen this movie. I would think a lot of people have, given how critically acclaimed it was when it came out and before I saw the movie I had heard of Eileen Wuornos and knew just the general facts of her story, that she was a sex worker who killed men who elicited her services. But I didn't know anything about her life or how she came to be the woman she was.

Remi: 1:48

I had not heard of her at all, I don't think, until this film. This movie came out during a time when I had a morbid fascination with serial killers and I had never heard of Eileen Wuornos. But I was there opening weekend to see this film, largely because I am a huge Charlize Theron fan. I have been a fan of her since I was a teenager. I loved her in. Two Days in the Valley was probably the first film I ever saw her in. She was amazing in the Devil's Advocate and she has gone on to so many brilliant performances in movies like Young Adult Tully, of course, fury Road, atomic Blonde. I love Charlize. She is, of course, fury Road, atomic Blonde. I love Charlize. She is phenomenal and this is really the performance that made her the big name that she is today.

Ashley: 2:36

Yeah, how can anyone forget the complete transformation she took to become Eileen Wuornos? She is one of the most gorgeous women on this planet and she was not afraid to ugly herself up to win that Oscar.

Remi: 2:54

And we will get into all the details of how she went about doing that in just a bit. But this film also stars Christina Ricci, who in my opinion sorry Jenna Ortega will always be the definitive Wednesday Addams. She is also amazing as the retirement home nurse Misty in the TV series Yellow Jackets, where she is probably my favorite character. In the first season she is deranged, she is sick, she is twisted and she is a joy to watch on that show. But in this movie she's playing a very quiet, shy, meek character that you kind of overlook because of just how much Charlize Theron is doing with her performance. But she is good in this film as well and I'm a big Christina Ricci fan.

Ashley: 3:42

Me too. I love her in Casper, of course, and I think my favorite performance of hers is Black Snake Moan. I love that movie.

Remi: 3:49

I forgot about Black Snake Moan. She is phenomenal in that film as well with Samuel L Jackson and Justin Timberlake. Jt is not that good in that film. He's probably the odd man out, but anytime it's Christina and Sam in the same scene. It is fire. It is amazing. High recommend for that movie. If you have not seen it. It is amazing.

Ashley: 4:10

High recommend for that movie if you have not seen it. Well, now that we did a little intro for our two leading ladies, what about the director? I know this is directed by a woman.

Remi: 4:18

It is directed by Patty Jenkins. She directed the Gal Gadot Wonder Woman film and the sequel to that, Wonder Woman 1984, I believe it was called. Honestly, I have never really been a huge Patty Jenkins fan. The directing in this film is nothing spectacular. It doesn't really stand out, and I do firmly believe that this film is entirely held up by Charlize Theron's performance. Not to poo-poo on anything Patty Jenkins has done, she just isn't my kind of director. I haven't really gotten into any of her films. That Wonder Woman movie was fine by me, but it didn't blow my socks off or anything. And I am frankly very surprised that she has remained in the industry as a name that they continue to bring up as a director when she did not direct another film since Monster. So it was a pretty pretty long gap before she did Wonder Woman. But we'll get into all of that in just a second. Should we dive in?

Ashley: 5:17

Yes, I want to know how on earth a movie about Eileen Wuornos that went on to be as well-received as it was came to be.

Remi: 5:27

I always wanted to be in the movies.

Remi: 5:40

Monster is a 2003 film written and directed by Patty Jenkins. I always wanted to be in the movies, and Ted Bundy were being regularly released to rent as blockbuster video exclusives. After making her first two short films, director Patty Jenkins was still searching for a way to break into the film industry and believed that directing such a film based on the story of Eileen Wuornos could provide her with just the stepping stone needed to bring her career to the next level in the film industry. Jenkins later stated I knew that people were making these really low-budget genre, serial killer type films, and I've said Roger Corman in the context that a lot of people have gotten their start that way and I'm just going to approach this as an opportunity to make a character film. And for those of you unfamiliar with that reference to Roger Corman, roger Corman was an American filmmaker and producer known for making low-budget B-movies like really bad movies, but he did help launch the careers of several major directors, including Martin Scorsese, francis Ford Coppola and James Cameron, just to name a few.

Ashley: 6:46

Who? Who are those three men? Never heard of them.

Remi: 6:49

I know they've kind of all faded into obscurity throughout the years, but these guys were bigwigs at one point and I believe that Jenkins thought of this film as a B-movie that could help her get her foot in the door and then go on to do bigger things afterwards. So it doesn't sound like it was a project she was necessarily passionate about, but more of an ends to a means. At the time of the film's initial conception, eileen Wuornos was still alive and serving out her sentence while sitting on death row. During the following seven to eight months, jenkins and Wuornos became pen pals and had planned on meeting each other in the not-too-distant future in order to discuss Wuornos' potential involvement with the project. These plans were eventually put on hold indefinitely once Wuornos' execution date was unexpectedly scheduled, leading to Jenkins feeling that it had become inappropriate to pursue working on the film with Wuornos any further.

Ashley: 7:48

That's respectable.

Remi: 7:49

In the end. Jenkins wrote the screenplay for Monster in about seven weeks, with the main character only ever being referred to as Lee, while the name Eileen Wuornos is never mentioned.

Ashley: 8:00

Lee was the nickname she went by, so in my part I mostly refer to her as Lee as well.

Remi: 8:06

The character of Selby is loosely based on Eileen Wuornos' real-life girlfriend, tyra Moore, who was a notoriously reclusive person and had asked that her name and likeness not be used in the film. Patty Jenkins agreed to the request, so reimagined Moore as the fictional character of Selby while writing the screenplay, and this is by far the character that I'm most interested to learn about, because everything I've read is that this character is completely made up for the film, and I'm actually really anxious to know what the real life Selby was like.

Ashley: 8:41

With you saying that Tyra also asked to have her likeness not be used. That explains a lot about not only the physical differences in appearance between these women, christina Ricci and Tyra Moore, but also how Christina Ricci plays this character.

Remi: 9:00

Supposedly. Patty Jenkins screen-tested Kate Winslet, heather Graham, brittany Murphy and Kate Beckinsale for the lead role of Lee, but became fixated on Charlize Theron after watching her daring performance in 1997's the Devil's Advocate. The specific scene from the film which convinced Jenkins that Theron would be perfect for the role involved a close-up shot of the actress's runny nose which led Jenkins to believe that Theron would be open to the challenge of taking on a part as raw and unglamorous as Eileen Wuornos At first. Theron admitted that she was confused when Jenkins approached her for the role, asking why me? Jenkins confidently responded by stating honestly, I just looked at you and I looked at everybody else and I said to myself I could kick the other actors, asses you. I'm not so sure. I also feel that it's worth mentioning that Charlize Theron is 5 foot 10, while the real Eileen was only 5 foot 4. So maybe the height played a little bit into that factor as well. Just saying Additionally, theron had also experienced a similarly traumatic event as many of Eileen's victims had when she was only a teenager.

Remi: 10:14

When Theron was just 15 years old, her father, charles Theron, stormed into the family's home near Johannesburg, south Africa, and proceeded to fire several rounds through a bedroom door where Charlize and her mother, gerda, were hiding, fearing for their lives. Gerda then grabbed her own handgun and opened fire in retaliation, shooting her husband dead right in front of their terrified daughter. Her father's death was ruled as the result of self-defense, and Charlize's mother was never charged with any crime.

Ashley: 10:44

What a traumatic experience.

Remi: 10:47

Seriously. I was in shock when I found out this story and I know it's not directly related, but I did feel that it was relevant. A week after Theron accepted the lead role in Monster, the real-life Eileen Wuornos was put to death by lethal injection in the state of Florida. After Wuornos' execution, a close friend of hers named Dawn Botkins offered 12 years' worth of correspondence letters they had written to each other to Jenkins and Theron to utilize as research for the film. Jenkins later confessed that Wuornos would probably have never trusted her enough to disclose any of the information revealed in those letters.

Patty Jenkins: 11:27

She ended up being executed right before we shot the film and left all of her personal letters as a big surprise to me, and so, actually, I walked onto the set of Monster. It never occurred to me that I wasn't the right person for the job for other reasons. I was like at this point I am. Nobody is ever coming near this movie. I have been left with such a duty of being the only person who understands and has taken on this responsibility.

Remi: 11:53

For further research. Theron spoke at lengths to Nick Broomfield, who had personally interviewed Wuornos on several occasions for his documentary Eileen Life and Death of a Serial Killer. Theron additionally shaved her eyebrows and gained between 20 and 30 pounds to play Wuornos. Though no prosthetics were used for Theron's makeup effects, she did wear brown contact lenses along with a pair of sculpted teeth. They also used liquid latex on Theron's face which, when dried using a hair dryer, makes the skin appear much more leathery.

Ashley: 12:26

Which makes sense for a woman who led a very hard life drinking a lot of beer in the hot, hot, hot Florida sun.

Remi: 12:34

Wuornos' real-life girlfriend, tyra Moore, was actually a much larger and aggressive woman than her on-screen counterpart, selby. One of the reasons producers chose Christina Ricci for the role was to add a dramatic visual contrast between her character and Theran's. Ritchie bears little to no physical resemblance to the real life more, and the production made no effort to make Ritchie look similar. Instead, ritchie focused on making Selby a catalyst for all of Eileen's reactions, resulting in Selby being portrayed as a far meeker character than Theran's. Like her co-star, ritchie gained 20 pounds for her role, and both actresses were purposefully dressed in unglamorous clothing throughout the duration of the shoot. During filming, theron admitted to regularly watching mindless television shows like Elimidate and the Bachelor as a form of therapy in order to help clear her head and get out of character after long, emotionally taxing days of portraying Wuornos on set.

Ashley: 13:34

I've never related to Charlie's Theron more than this moment.

Remi: 13:38

Regarding the families of Wuornos' victims, patty Jenkins claimed that she hoped that they wouldn't see the film, but admitted that without doing so, the families couldn't understand how the film doesn't sympathize with Wuornos' actions. Nor does it insinuate that any of her victims were horrible men who got what was coming to them. I would say that is true for all of her victims except the first one in the film. And that is all I have for pre-production. So should we get on to the main event now?

Remi: 14:06

Yes, let's dive in Our story begins with home movie footage of little Eileen Wuornos dressing up like a princess and dancing in front of a mirror. As a voiceover from older Eileen reminisces about how she had always dreamed of growing up to be rich and beautiful, only to realize later in life that such fantasies were insurmountably improbable for someone like herself. Eileen, who goes by the nickname of Lee, refers to herself as a hopeless romantic, always looking for love in all the wrong places. Through flashbacks, we watch clips of Leigh as a teenager flashing her breasts to a group of high school jocks for a couple of dollars. Leigh is also shown walking the streets at night and getting picked up by an older man whom she fellates before being abandoned in the woods as soon as the act has been completed.

Remi: 15:07

We then cut to Leigh later in life, looking worse for wear and being played by an unrecognizable Charlize Theron. Lee sits with her head down in tears under a dark freeway overpass, taking shelter from a harsh rainstorm, with a loaded gun in one hand and a crumpled up $5 bill in the other. Meanwhile, at a nearby gay bar, we see a shy, diminutive girl named Selby, played by Christina Ricci, sitting alone with her forearm in a cast, practically begging for somebody to come over and talk to her. Moments later, lee enters the bar soaking wet, having just postponed her own suicide, in order to spend her last five dollars on beer. After ordering a glass of the cheapest beer they have on tap, lee chugs her drink, then immediately orders another. As quiet little Selby saunters up next to her and flirtatiously attempts to start a conversation.

Monster Clip: 16:00

Can I buy you that drink? I got my own money. I'll pitch her Whatever she's having. Look it, I'm not gay, all right, no, well, that makes sense. So what are you doing here? Then my truck broke down. I'm uh, I got a pressure cleaning business. What's pressure cleaning? You know steam cleaning, upholstery carpets. You know shit like that. So I'm just getting out of the rain. My name's Selby Lee.

Remi: 16:42

Lee then abruptly tries to leave, and when Selby tries reaching out to stop her, lee reacts by hurling a barrage of homophobic slurs in Selby's direction, while adamantly asserting that she isn't gay. Selby meekly apologizes for her actions, causing Lee to realize that poor little Selby may just be as sad and lonely as she is, feeling sympathetic. Lee offers to stay for a bit and the two women end up spending the rest of their evening together, chatting it up and getting drunk, until the bar closes Outside. Lee apologizes for her earlier insensitivity and is invited to come back to Selby's place, which Lee reluctantly agrees to. Through voiceover, we learn that the only reason that Lee didn't kill herself that day was because she didn't want to waste the $5 she had received earlier for servicing a man. Lee then took meeting Selby that night as a sign from God to stick around for a little while and maybe even try opening up her heart to a woman for a change, instead of a man. We soon learn that Selby is currently living with her aunt's family since being exiled from her parents' home after her father found out that Selby is gay. Once inside Selby's room, leigh showers and the two women blissfully fall asleep wrapped in each other's arms nestled closely in Selby's bed.

Remi: 17:57

The following morning Leigh and Selby are both jolted awake by Selby's Aunt Donna bursting into the room to remind Selby that it's time to get ready for church. Outside the house, selby walks Leigh to the curb and the two women make plans to meet up later, while nosy Aunt Donna looks on disapprovingly from the patio window. Back inside, aunt Donna interrogates Selby about the homeless woman she discovered sleeping in her niece's bed that morning, who could have robbed them blind while Selby was fast asleep. Though Selby tries to defend Lee, aunt Donna refuses to hear another word and sternly forbids Selby from ever canoodling with Lee again Elsewhere. Lee stops by her storage unit to grab some of her belongings and while doing so runs into the manager of the facility named Earl, being played by Bruce Dern. Despite Lee admittedly being late on rent, earl is sympathetic towards her situation and reassures Lee that she only needs to pay him back whenever she has the money to do so. Earl even stops to share his sandwich and a beer with Lee while checking in to see how she's been holding up.

Remi: 18:59

Later on, in a dingy gas station restroom, lee readies herself for her second date with Selby by bathing herself in a dirty sink, then utilizing the hand dryer to give herself a makeshift blowout. Their encounter is delayed slightly when Lee has difficulty entering the roller disco without the $5 cover charge, but is luckily saved by Selby, who comes to the rescue by paying Lee's entrance fee. A short time later, while chowing down on some french fries, selby bluntly asks if Lee is a prostitute. Lee answers honestly, admitting that she is a sex worker, which doesn't seem to bother Selby in the slightest. In fact, selby seems legitimately curious to learn more about Lee and her profession. After getting further acquainted, the two women strap on a pair of roller skates and hit the rink together to have a little carefree fun, culminating in a romantic kiss as the song Don't Stop Believing plays over the sound system by the end of the night, the two are engulfed in the throes of passion with one another.

Remi: 20:12

But their romantic evening is cut short once they both realize that neither of them have a home that they can bring the other back to. As a compromise, lee and Selby make plans to meet up at a motel the next night, which should give Lee just enough time to scrounge together enough cash to pay for their room After returning home. Selby is dismayed to learn that her Aunt, donna, has already arranged for Selby to move back in with her parents. Across town, lee has already hit the streets prostituting herself by the side of the road for $10 a pop in an effort to earn the money needed for her and Selby to stay in a motel later that evening. As the sun begins to set, lee decides to take one last customer before calling it a night. She is picked up by a man played by Lee Turgason, then driven to a secluded area down a long, dirt road surrounded by wilderness. Once parked, the two share a few swigs from the man's flask and we learn that the man is married. As they are about to begin, the situation quickly turns hostile over a financial dispute. Then, without warning, the man lashes out, punching Lee in the side of the head and knocking her unconscious.

Remi: 21:19

Lee awakens sometime later, tied to the inside of the man's car with her face covered in blood, clearly having just been raped while she was unconscious. When the man suddenly returns, he violates Lee with a tire iron, then mercilessly beats her while continuously threatening her life. He then empties a bottle of rubbing alcohol onto Lee's injured body, which causes her to scream out in agony. As Lee is writhing in pain, the man leaves her momentarily to retrieve something from his trunk, giving Lee the opportunity to free herself and quickly grab her handgun from inside of her purse.

Remi: 21:53

After frantically escaping the vehicle, lee opens fire on the man until she runs out of bullets, ensuring that the man is dead, then continues by beating his lifeless corpse in a fit of rage. Upon further inspection of the man's belongings, it also becomes painfully clear that the man had fully intended on murdering Lee that night. There's like a shovel and lime and several things that would indicate his plans that she discovers After burying the man's body in a shallow grave. Lee hastily changes into some spare clothing she discovers in the trunk, then drives the man's car to a nearby gas station to clean off her bloody wounds in the public restroom. Despite the severe trauma she's just been through, lee seems even more upset about missing her date earlier, so proceeds to drive the murdered man's vehicle over to Selby's in order to apologize.

Ashley: 22:43

That fact just shows you that this woman is used to being victimized if that's what she's most upset about and that's her way of coping with it.

Remi: 22:53

After waking Selby from her slumber, the two have a private rendezvous outside, where Selby breaks the news that she will be returning to live with her parents the following morning. Distraught by this revelation, lee begs Selby to stay in town for another week so that they can spend just a bit more time together. Selby is understandably apprehensive about Lee's request but does reluctantly agree to Lee's desperate pleas to delay her departure. Once Lee can contain her giddy excitement, the two women quietly sneak off and hastily drive away in the murdered man's vehicle, which Lee claims she had borrowed from a friend. After checking into a modestly sized room at the Little Diamond Motel, the two crack open a couple of beers to celebrate their impending week together.

Remi: 23:39

The next day the two women go shopping for groceries before heading out to a dive bar later in the night, all while Lee proudly shows off her new girlfriend Selby to anyone and everyone along the way. Side note here these dive bar scenes were filmed at an actual bar called the Last Resort, where the real Eileen Wuornos regularly drank and was subsequently arrested. The owner of the establishment, al Bulling, even hung up a sign to capitalize on Wuornos' infamy, advertising cool beer and killer women. And he also has a small cameo in the film as the bartender who threatens to cut off Wuornos for being over her tab limit.

Ashley: 24:17

I do like the little inclusion of having this bar actually in it, but I think his way of advertising and trying to get customers is in poor taste.

Remi: 24:28

The next morning Lee thoroughly cleans the murdered man's vehicle, then burns any other remaining evidence, while Selby returns to her aunt's home to discreetly pack some belongings to bring back to the motel. While making her getaway, Selby is discovered by her Aunt, Donna, who is furious about Selby running away and insists that she speak with her father over the telephone immediately to explain her actions. Unfortunately, their conversation does not go smoothly and ends with Selby hanging up on her father, then storming away in tears. Back at the motel, Lee is thrilled to learn that Selby has decided to stay with her well beyond the allotted time frame and vows to give up hooking once and for all. However, Lee's new lease on life has Selby concerned that they will both run out of money soon, since neither of them have a source of income now. But Lee promises that she can find another career and will start applying to new jobs first thing in the morning. Throughout the next several days Lee tries her best and does attend several job interviews, only to be universally rejected by every potential employer.

Monster Clip: 25:46

I'm sorry, but when I read the ad it said that you were looking for a secretary.

Monster Clip: 25:49

Okay, well, you need to learn how to type. You'll need computer skills. Most of our secretaries have college degrees. In fact, most of them have specialized in law. I don't mean to sound harsh, but frankly it's a little insulting. I see You're from Daytona Beach and all of that looks great. It must be wonderful, but can I tell you something? When the beach party is over, you don't get to say you know what I think now I'd like to have what everybody else has worked their entire life for.

Monster Clip: 26:19

It doesn't work that way. Fuck you man. Yeah, fuck you. You don't fucking know me.

Monster Clip: 26:23

Okay, great, that's great. See, now, I'm so sorry I didn't hire you before. Leslie, could you please escort Miss? I don't even know her name because of course she doesn't have a resume.

Monster Clip: 26:32

I don't need a fucking escort. You piece of shit what you think. I'm a fucking retard. Take your fucking job and fucking shove it. Fuck you, leslie.

Remi: 26:43

And I just need to add that the part at the end where she says Fuck you, leslie, was improvised. And while we were watching that clip, I realized that the guy interviewing her is the same actor who plays Glenn Guglia in the Wedding Singer, which is just sort of weird. But yeah, I never noticed it until literally this second that we watched the clip together.

Ashley: 27:04

I would say that shame on this guy for even agreeing to interview this woman in the first place, if he knew he was just going to shit on her like that.

Remi: 27:13

I get the impression that most of these were open interviews that she went to, so I don't think she was called in for this. I think she just showed up.

Ashley: 27:21

I forgot those were much more common back in the day.

Remi: 27:24

And her original plan was to try and become a vet, but Selby has to explain that that's a medical job and you would need a degree to do something like that. So she's setting her sights really high, but her talents are not meeting her aspirations here. But she is trying. After a long day of rejections, lee and Selby hit up the dive bar to kick back and relax while having a few drinks. And, on a personal note, it was during this scene where they are at the bar together that I realized I hadn't thought of Charlize Theron at any point while watching this character, and I just want to reiterate how remarkably impressive it is that she was able to completely disappear into this role the way that she did. I mean seriously, wow, bravo, charlize.

Remi: 28:14

Anyway, lee and Selby's financial situation has become increasingly dire. Then, while begging for change one day, lee is picked up by a police officer who ruthlessly rapes her in an empty parking garage. Afterwards, lee happens to notice a newspaper in the trash with a headline reporting that the body of the man she had murdered was recently discovered and is now being investigated by the police. When Lee returns to her motel room later that night, she finds Selby in tears, attempting to remove her own cast, since they do not have enough money for her to go to the hospital do not have enough money for her to go to the hospital.

Remi: 28:52

Ugh, that just made me cringe. I have never had a cast knock on wood, but watching this scene was pretty rough. She just wanted it off so badly it was past its time, like it needed to be removed. Her arm was done healing, but they just didn't have the money to go in and have it taken off properly. Additionally, selby now suspects that the only reason that Lee gave up hooking to begin with was because she had intended on using Selby to support her financially Out of sheer desperation. Lee confesses that the real reason she quit being a prostitute was because she had murdered a man who raped her during her last night on the job, but still agrees to return to hooking so that she can support Selby.

Remi: 29:33

We then cut back to Lee working the streets, where she is inevitably picked up by a man who drives her to a secluded location to complete their transaction. After a bit of awkward banter, lee suddenly pulls out her handgun and shoots the unsuspecting man several times, causing him to stagger from his car and collapse before Lee finishes the job. Just as before, lee then steals the man's vehicle, then returns to the Diamond Motel to shower Selby with cash stolen from the man Lee had just murdered, though Selby does wonder where Lee had gotten yet another new vehicle. Lee shrugs off Selby's inquiries by again claiming that she had borrowed the car from another friend of hers. Lee's latest score brings in enough money for the happy couple to rent an apartment together where they revel in each other's company over the next several days, but does make me wonder exactly how much cash Lee's last victim had actually been carrying on him. Apparently it was enough to rent a apartment. I don't know, it seems a little weird.

Ashley: 30:35

Most of the places they were staying at were really low cost places like $50 a month or something like that $50 a week. So they usually were able to scrounge up enough money to stay at these places for a little bit and, like we saw in the scene earlier with the storage unit person, a lot of the people they rented from were understanding to their situation. So if they were late on rent that was usually fine. The landlords would let them be able to have some time to catch up, which, to their credit, they always did them be able to have some time to catch up, which, to their credit, they always did.

Remi: 31:12

More time passes and soon Lee must strike again in order to continue funding their lifestyle. On one occasion, lee is picked up by a man she plans on murdering to rob, but instead takes pity on him after seeing how nervous he is and learning that he has never been with a prostitute before. Undeterred Lee is later picked up by another man, where it is implied that she was able to follow through with her plan this time. In the days ahead, we see that Lee has started collecting newspaper clippings reporting on her various crimes and has a third new car now sitting in her driveway. One afternoon, while Lee is passed out on the couch, selby gets bored and decides to take Lee's car without her permission. After several hours, selby returns home to find Lee waiting for her, leading to the following interaction Get the fuck in here.

Monster Clip: 32:02

Where the fuck were you? I was out In that fucking car. So what are you doing? Oh, I'm just cleaning this fucking pigsty. We're living in, salby, that's all what the fuck were you doing. I was out, we needed stuff, we needed stuff. We don't need this fucking shit. Salby, who the fuck told you you could take the fucking car lee? What difference does it make? What difference? If I want to fucking borrow a car from a friend, that's my fucking business okay, that's what.

Monster Clip: 32:32

I'm going to go any place I want to okay, anytime I want, not in my fucking friend's car, you're not Fine fine, then I'll walk.

Tyria Moore: 32:42

okay, I do not want to sit here alone all the time. I want to go out. I want to meet people.

Ashley: 32:56

I want to hang out with people without you fucking scaring them off. I like how Selby says she left because they needed stuff and the first thing Lee pulls out of the plastic bag is a teddy bear.

Remi: 33:00

I hadn't noticed that before, but that is a very good point. I would be kind of mad too if someone took my car for an entire day saying that we needed stuff and I see that they brought back a teddy bear.

Ashley: 33:11

It was obviously a creative choice made to further highlight Selby's innocence.

Remi: 33:21

Lee storms out of their apartment after this altercation to commit her fourth murder and robbery off screen. Lee predictably has another new car following the events of that night, along with enough extra cash to take Selby to a local amusement park called Fun World. While there, selby meets up with a group of her friends and they all go on a few rides together, while Lee awkwardly hangs back and watches Selby from the distance. Once Selby and her friends have parted ways, selby and Lee ride a ferris wheel together, called the Monster, which had always terrified Lee as a child.

Remi: 33:56

Sometime later, the two women are enjoying a lovely, carefree afternoon drive when Selby unexpectedly takes a sharp right turn, causing their car to veer off of the road and into a ditch on someone's property. The homeowners naturally come out to investigate the crash, just in time to see Lee and Selby trying to flee the scene. But Lee still manages to play it off by claiming that she doesn't have insurance so would rather cover the damages to her car personally, without any police involvement. Even though the car is clearly barely running at this point, lee does get it started and proceeds to make their getaway as fast as possible. We then cut to Lee, spraying down the interior of the car with bleach, then removing the license plate somewhere out in the woods as Selby looks on, confused, demanding answers.

Ashley: 34:38

Does she rip it off with her bare hands? Because that's what she did in real life?

Remi: 34:42

You know, I don't remember. I think she may have. Actually, I don't think she had a screwdriver with her, I think she was just overcome with let's get the fuck out of here and ripped it off with her bare hands, but I didn't notice, so maybe that's not how it went down. Stressing the urgency of their situation, lee bluntly blurts out that the car belongs to a dead man, so they need to promptly ditch any evidence and get the hell out of there as soon as possible.

Remi: 35:10

Back at their apartment, lee finally comes clean about the numerous murders she had committed and even reveals her collection of newspaper clippings covering her crimes, in an effort to reassure Selby that the police still have no leads. Selby is, of course, aghast after hearing this news, and though Lee continues to try and explain herself, it is obvious that Selby is utterly terrified and no longer trusts her. From the way this scene plays out, it appears that Selby knew about one victim, but she did not know that Lee kept doing this. She knew that Lee had murdered the man who raped her and abused her, but after that she thought that lee had stopped doing that and it was a one-time situation. Now, in desperate need of a new escape vehicle, lee lures another unsuspecting victim out into the woods the following day, planning to rob and kill him just as she had the others no man, this is good, right here. The car was good.

Monster Clip: 36:13

Not when there's a fucking gun in it. So Lots of people have guns. Well, are you going to undress, or what? No, you first. I think I fucking trust you now. So, uh, you're married, right? See, I don't get that fucking shit. Want to come out here with strange girls, do dirty things with them Instead of just fucking your wife. Why, man, she can rape them. Oh good Lord, Fucking men. I fucking hate them. Then why are you a hooker?

Monster Clip: 36:56

I'm not a hooker, see. I don't fuck men Used to, mostly against my will. Though yeah, this old guy used to rape me when I was eight Real good friend of my dad's, you know. So I go to my dad tell him what's going on. My dad don't fucking believe me, so his friend keeps raping me for years, and the fucking kicker to the story is that my dad fucking beats me up for it. You see, man, where the fuck do you think you're going? Huh?

Patty Jenkins: 37:30

Rick, I'm not going. Look, I feel sorry for you, but if you want a ride, you better come on.

Monster Clip: 37:36

See, I don't need a ride, man. Yeah, I don't need a ride.

Remi: 37:44

And what she does in that scene where she's kind of talking shit to the guy, is the same thing she had done with the other men that she had murdered as well. She gets into this headspace of talking about what a horrible person they are and what a piece of shit they are, and then she continues by murdering them.

Ashley: 38:03

After she was arrested. Everyone who interacted with her while she was in Florida with Ty during these years did say that it was clear and very obvious that Eileen Wuornos hated men.

Remi: 38:17

I think she had some pretty justifiable reasons to hate men, but I don't think she had justifiable reasons to continue doing what she did.

Ashley: 38:26

No, it's clearly a way for her to justify, in her mind, her actions.

Remi: 38:31

Exactly. If she convinces herself that these men that she is murdering are rapists or cheaters or abusers of women or something like that, it makes it more okay for her to end their life. After shooting the man in cold blood, lee rifles through the man's wallet and discovers a police badge, leading Lee to the jarring realization that her latest victim had been an officer of the law. In a state of panic, lee hurries home to quickly inform Selby what had just occurred, before returning to the streets of Daytona Beach in a second attempt to procure another vehicle. Somehow, in her absence, selby happens upon a news program reporting on the unsolved murders, featuring an artist's rendition of both Lee and Selby, which had been provided to investigators by the homeowners who had witnessed the couple's earlier car accident. Elsewhere, lee is now heavily intoxicated and picked up by an older man named Horton, being played by Scott Wilson, whom our audience may remember for his roles as Herschel from the Walking Dead and Dick Hickok in the 1967 film In Cold Blood.

Ashley: 39:42

Who would have thought we'd be talking about this guy twice on this podcast?

Remi: 39:46

He pops up from time to time. He's a good actor. He never really got his due, but he's very talented While driving. Lee is taken aback after concluding that her latest target has no intention of propositioning her sexually and instead seems genuinely concerned for her well-being and helping her in any way that he can. He even offers Lee a shower, along with some clean clothes and a place to stay with him and his wife until she can get back on her feet again.

Remi: 40:15

Though clearly conflicted, lee nevertheless proceeds with her plan by pulling a gun on Horton and forcing him to drive out to a secluded clearing in the forest. She then orders Horton out of the car as he begs for mercy, pleading for his life, before Lee emits a guttural scream and violently pulls the trigger. And on a personal note here, I actually cried during this scene. When she brings Horton out of the car, he is talking about never seeing his granddaughter again. He is offering to give her everything he has, as long as she'll just let him go. He is such a tragic, minor character in this film I don't know what it was. It really, really got to me and I ended up shedding a tear for poor Horton.

Remi: 40:59

By the time Lee returns home with her new getaway vehicle. The following morning, the media frenzy surrounding the ensuing manhunt for Lee and Selby had only intensified and was now being covered by nearly every news channel. With her capture imminent, lee drives Selby to a bus station and buys her a one-way ticket to return to her parents in an attempt to spare Selby from any impending legal ramifications. In an attempt to spare Selby from any impending legal ramifications, while waiting for Selby's departure, lee is overcome with emotion and breaks down into tears in a scene that.

Monster Clip: 41:50

I love you, you know, and you were the first and only person who knew me real close.

Patty Jenkins: 42:03

And didn't think I was bad, or you know, maybe I fucked up a little bit. You know, I know I did, I didn't fuck up.

Ashley: 42:27

It's sad she's conflicted. She knows she's not good for Selby, but it's also the one maybe second person in her life, other than the friend you mentioned in the intro, her friend Don that has really shown her love on.

Remi: 42:50

That has really shown her love, I agree. I feel like the scene is Lee realizing that this life that she had with Selby is over and she had tried to keep it together. Granted, it was the wrong way to attempt to do so, but I think she found just this little sliver of happiness and she was trying to cling onto it with everything that she had and, as a result, it imploded. After a tearful goodbye, lee looks on heartbroken as Selby's bus slowly disappears into the distance. By sundown, lee is back at her regular dive bar drowning her sor sorrows getting totally wasted when she is suddenly arrested by two undercover police officers who had been disguised as bar patrons. And a quick side note here one of the two undercover cops that arrests Lee in this scene is portrayed by stuntman Kane Hodder, who is primarily known amongst horror fans for playing Jason Voorhees in many of the Friday the 13th films.

Remi: 43:44

While incarcerated, lee calls Selby, but after learning that Selby has already spoken to the police, lee quickly deduces that Selby had been coerced into trying to garner a confession from her to get off with a lighter sentence. In the end, lee admits to everything to spare Selby any further trauma the final time Lee and Selby see each other is during Lee's trial. When Selby testifies on behalf of the prosecution After being sentenced to death, lee snaps at the judge and yells rotten hell before being involuntarily escorted from the courtroom. A title card then reveals that Eileen and Selby never spoke again, and Eileen Wuornos was executed on October 9, 2002, after 12 years on Florida's death row. And that was Patty Jenkins' Monster. What do you think, ashley?

Ashley: 44:36

From the clips I saw, I think both women did a very incredible job acting. These are hard roles. Obviously, playing Eileen Wuornos is more difficult because you have to dig deeper to find a more sympathetic side, Whereas how Selby is portrayed she's just made to look like this completely innocent, naive person. But Lee has a lot of demons inside of her and the scene with Scott Wilson really shows that she's conflicted about doing this, but she views it as her only option to keep the woman she loves and maintain this semblance of a life that is just crashing around her.

Remi: 45:19

And I did find it interesting about the Selby character that again, it was completely made up for this film because the real life person didn't want any involvement or her likeness or anything to be used. So the character is portrayed as almost like a teenager. I would say. She's living with her aunt, she was living with her parents and she's portrayed as this very innocent young girl and it creates a very interesting dynamic between the two of them, with Lee being this older woman who has been through so much trauma and this young girl who's really just kind of starting her life and getting out into the world. And it was a very well done juxtaposition between the two of them. But I do really, really, really want to know about the real person that Selby is based on. I know that it's going to be completely different, so that is the big thing that I'm curious to know in your section.

Ashley: 46:19

I think we will have a lot more to say about Selby and how she was depicted when we get to our verdict portion.

Remi: 46:28

Well, with that, let's move on to the release portion of this film. Monster had its world premiere at the AFI Fest on November 16, 2003, and was theatrically released in the United States on December 24, 2003 by New Market Films. The film currently has a rating of 82% on Rotten Tomatoes, with a critical consensus that reads Charlize Theron gives a searing, deglamorized performance as real-life serial killer Eileen Wuornos in Monster, an intense, disquieting portrait of a profoundly damaged soul. Film critic Roger Ebert even praised Theron's acting in the film as one of the greatest performances in the history of cinema, which is high praise from Mr Ebert. The film went on to receive multiple awards and nominations, particularly for Theron's performance, including the Golden Globe Award for Best Actress in a Drama, the SAG Award for Outstanding Lead Actress, the Critics' Choice Movie Award for Best Actress, the Independent Spirit Award for Best Female Lead and, of course, the Academy Award for Best Actress, which was ironically won on February 29, 2004, which also happens to be the real Eileen Wuornos' birthday.

Ashley: 47:47

Leap year baby.

Remi: 47:49

Though that was the film's only Oscar nomination, patty Jenkins did walk away with an Independent Spirit Award for Best First Feature. Theron's win, along with Halle Berry's win in 2002 for Monster's Ball and Nicole Kidman's 2003 win for the Hours, resulted in many actresses who had initially gained notoriety for being attractive, later downplaying their appearance in order to be taken more seriously as actors. This has since become known throughout the industry as going ugly.

Ashley: 48:21

You know, I wish they would have thought of a better phrase than that.

Remi: 48:25

I agree the term going ugly is pretty derogatory and offensive, but it was the terminology that I found used in the research.

Remi: 48:35

Unfortunately, Years later, Theron voiced her frustrations at the time with the media obsessing over how brave she had been to gain weight and be seen as unattractive on screen for her Academy Award winning performance, instead of primarily focusing on her acting abilities. During an interview with Howard Stern, Theron confessed that not everyone was impressed with her dramatic weight gain, recalling that one specific financer of the film had no fucking idea what kind of movie they were making and had assumed that the film was going to be some kind of hot Charlize Theron, Christina Ricci, lesbian love sex movie. Theron said she later received a call from the financer freaking out late one evening after he had screened some of the dailies, complaining that she looked terrible and didn't smile on camera. This feedback left Theron questioning if the film was going to be any good or not, so she called up director Patty Jenkins, who reassured her that was not the case, and then forbid Theron from ever speaking to that fine answer again.

Ashley: 49:42

He clearly had no idea what kind of movie was being made when he threw money behind it.

Remi: 49:48

Surprisingly, that is not unusual, with a lot of financers on some of these independent, lower-budget films. They don't know what they're making. They just know it's a movie and a ballpark idea of what it's going to be about a movie and a ballpark idea of what it's going to be about. 14 years after Monster's release, Patty Jenkins finally directed her second film, Wonder Woman, in 2017.

Ashley: 50:13

That is such a crazy gap.

Remi: 50:16

It's crazy 14 years and not making another movie. I remember when her name was first announced for Wonder Woman and they were like the director of Monster is being brought in. And of course I went on IMDb and was like I liked. Monster. I wonder what else she has done Nothing, so it makes me wonder how she was even in the conversation if she literally hadn't done anything in 14 years.

Ashley: 50:40

Especially for a big budget superhero movie that is so different from an indie film about a serial killer.

Remi: 50:48

Well, Jenkins did state that she made several attempts at pitching other projects throughout the years, including one for 2013's Thor, the Dark World, but claimed that studios were never interested in any of her ideas For 14 years. I probably would have found a new profession at that point. 14 years is pretty discouraging, I would say. Jenkins did go on to direct the eye-rollingly cheesy sequel Wonder Woman 1984, in 2020, and, as of this podcast's release, she has not directed any other films and currently has no other projects in development. And that was Patty Jenkins' Monster, A very interesting portrayal of a damaged woman brought to life brilliantly by Charlize Theron. But that does beg the question how much of this was the truth, Ashley? Do you want to step in and maybe let us know?

Ashley: 51:46

All right, but before we kick things off, let's just hear a little snippet of Aileen Wuornos' favorite song and the dealers.

Remi: 52:08

They crowded around me.

Ashley: 52:16

Eileen Lee Wuornos was born in Troy, michigan, on February 29, 1956. Her parents, diane and Leo Pittman, briefly married as teenagers, but Leo abandoned his family shortly after their first child, keith, was born 11 months before Eileen. This was of little consequence, since he was unfaithful, a drunk and abusive. Diane tried to make it as a single mother of two for a year or so, but one night, when she was 18, she left her kids with a friend and fled to Texas without any explanation. Diane tried to make it as a single mother of two for a year or so, but one night, when she was 18, she left her kids with a friend and fled to Texas without any explanation.

Ashley: 52:53

As for Leo, he was sentenced to life in prison in 1966 for the rape of a minor. He hung himself in his cell three years later, after Diane abandoned her kids, her parents, lori and Britta Wuornos, anne, abandoned her kids. Her parents, lori and Britta Wuornos, adopted and raised them as their own. Keith and Lee grew up thinking Lori and Britta were their biological parents and Barry and sister Lori, who were 12 and two and a half years older than Lee, were their siblings. They also believed their mom was their eldest sister and never understood why everyone refused to talk about her.

Remi: 53:23

A similar thing happened to Jack Nicholson as well, I believe, as he grew up thinking that his mother was his sister and then found out years later that the woman he thought was his mom was actually his grandmother.

Ashley: 53:37

While Eileen Wuornos is far from a reliable historian, her account of her childhood was pretty consistent across time. Lori Sr and Britta were emotionally distant, with Lori taken on the role as the primary disciplinarian and rule enforcer. The kids were kept on a strict daily routine and beaten when they misbehaved. Keith and Lee were definitely the most rebellious of the bunch. They both recalled recurrent beatings with a leather belt that Lori Sr cleaned meticulously and hung on full display. Lee also intermittently accused Lori Sr of sexually abusing her.

Ashley: 54:14

Although sister Lori and Barry disputed Keith and Lee's accounts of their father's abuse, there are several potential explanations for this. First, barry was so much older than Lee and Keith and he moved out of the home to join the Air Force in 1967. Additionally, both Barry and sister Lori were better behaved and probably favored, given their paternity. Lori Sr's treatment of Lee worsened when she started shoplifting and playing around with fire when she was 8 or 9. Her behavior and choices worsened when she was 11. The same year she learned the true identity of her mother, who at this point had remarried and started a new family, something Lori Sr did not neglect to tell Keith and Lee.

Remi: 55:01

This would be had a short fuse.

Ashley: 55:02

Her temper outbursts became more explosive and frequent, which further alienated her from her classmates. She just didn't seem to understand that her aggression contributed to her becoming a social pariah. To make matters worse, she began sneaking out and spending all her free time at a popular hangout spot near a heavily wooded, ravine-like area. In exchange for drugs, cigarettes or money, she started performing sex acts on any boys willing to pay. While her male peers were more than willing to associate with her during sexual exchanges, they wanted nothing to do with her. After, In public, they called her a slew of derogatory names, avoided her like the plague and kicked her out of parties, even ones she hosted with the money she earned from her endeavors.

Remi: 55:55

So she was the promiscuous high school girl that was just shunned by everyone. As a result, I think every high school had a girl like this.

Ashley: 56:05

It was really rough reading about how they treated her in the book. They would be more than willing to have sex with her and then in public they would like spit on her, call her like fat ugly pig and things like that. Some even hit her with a car one time.

Remi: 56:23

And what does that do to someone emotionally, where someone is being loving and kind to you one minute and the next minute they're calling you names and spitting at you? I mean, that has to mess with your sense of self so much.

Ashley: 56:39

It teaches her that she is good for nothing except for sex. Her schoolmates weren't the only ones who took advantage of her sexually. People were well aware of the occasional incestuous behavior between her and Keith, along with the intermittent sexual relationship with an older man who opened his home to whatever kid wanted to party and listen to his tall tales.

Remi: 57:00

So that must have been the older man she was in the car with at the beginning of the film, when they were showing a montage of her teenage years.

Ashley: 57:08

That's what I thought too. Eileen discovered she was pregnant when she was 14, but hid it from her parents for seven months, which is when she was sent to an institution for unwed mothers in Detroit. She gave birth to her son a month after she turned 15 and gave him up for adoption. Although Lori Sr allowed her to return home, he never discussed the pregnancy of her baby and kicked her out for good a few months later.

Remi: 57:33

Was there ever any word on what happened to this baby that she gave up to adoption?

Ashley: 57:39

They never met and I don't think his identity has ever been revealed, which is for the best. With nowhere to go, she mostly slept in the woods or in abandoned cars, hitchhiked around town and increased her drinking and drug use. Britta died from cirrhosis in July 1971. For some reason, lori Sr seemed to blame Keith and Lee and even called Diane, threatening to kill them if she didn't come retrieve them. To her credit, she immediately drove home but was told by Texas authorities before she left that the teens would likely become wards of the state if she brought them back with her. This didn't really upset her kids, since they were ambivalent about moving in with her anyway. Lee was in the 10th grade when she made her first real friend. Dawn wasn't as wild as Lee, but she was intrigued by the rebellious girl's reputation.

Remi: 58:28

This is the girl that grows up to be the woman that gives Patty Jenkins the letters.

Ashley: 58:33

Yes, they reconnect after Lee gets arrested and maintain a relationship through letters until Lee dies.

Remi: 58:40

Wow, I didn't realize they had met so young.

Ashley: 58:42

The two were inseparable and spent most of their time hitchhiking around town and doing drugs until Dawn met her soon-to-be husband on one of these hitching trips and married him in 1973.

Remi: 58:53

What a how-did-you-meet-your-wife-or-husband story. How did you two meet? Hitchhiking that's gotta be rare.

Ashley: 59:01

From then on, lee was a rootless wanderer. She visited her sister and husband in Colorado a few times, but these trips never lasted more than a few weeks before some major blow-up caused Lori to ask her to leave. Phone calls were exchanged primarily in times of crisis, such as after suicide attempts or during brief psychiatric hospitalizations. Lee did try for a bit to hold down a few jobs, but her anger always got the best of her. And these were not jobs at like a lawyer's office. It was like at a gas station, as a maid at a hotel, things like that.

Ashley: 59:35

1976 was a big year for Eileen Wuornos. Lori Sr died by suicide via carbon monoxide poisoning, but this loss was nowhere near as devastating as the death of Keith, who battled cancer for the last two years. Keith really was the one stable person in her life, even though it did sound like there was some sexual behavior between them. She really saw him as her best friend and safe haven, so this death was devastating for her. She also married 69-year-old Louis Fell, a man she met while hitchhiking. Louis could have been her ticket to stability. He was wealthy, had a beachside condo and seemed to genuinely care about her. Unfortunately, her alcohol addiction, late nights at the bar. Poor spending habits and explosive temper caused him to file for divorce after a few months. 1976 also kicked off what would turn into a long list of arrests, until she was arrested for murder. Most of her charges involved possession of guns and stolen cars, duis or driving without a license.

Ashley: 1:00:42

After her marriage fell apart, lee made her way to Florida where she continued partying and hitchhiking while seeking out men willing to pay for sex. To decrease the chances of being hurt. She singled out older looking dudes driving alone and often passed herself off as a woman experiencing car trouble or in need of money for rent, medical care or resources for her non-existent children. Lee met 52-year-old mechanic Jay Watts at a bar in Daytona Beach, florida, in the spring of 1981.

Ashley: 1:01:12

After partying together a few times, she asked to crash at his place and a casual sexual relationship ensued. It was the most stability she had had in years. He even helped her get a lawyer before she was sentenced to three years in prison for robbery with a deadly weapon after she drunkenly held up a truck stop convenience store wearing nothing but a bathing suit. Their friendship started to fizzle after a year, but by the time she was released on good behavior after 18 months she already had a new life lined up for herself. You see, in prison Lee put out an ad in the personal section of a biker magazine. 47-year-old divorcee Ed wrote to her a few times, thinking she was only in prison for theft.

Remi: 1:01:53

She put a personal ad out while in prison. She was able to do that.

Ashley: 1:01:58

Some of the rules in prison used to be really lax back in the day, I know, in Oregon until I think the mid-90s. Like the inmates could have subscriptions to like Playboy and stuff. After Lee was released in August 1983, she hitchhiked to Washington DC and called Ed out of the blue. She was drunk when he picked her up and told him he better not touch her since she was gay. Their three-month situation ship came to an end when he had her admitted to a psychiatric facility due to the amount of time she came home drunk as a skunk. After she was released she spent a few weeks at Jim and Tammy Fay's religious community in North Carolina before returning to Florida.

Remi: 1:02:41

A couple who we will be doing a future episode on, no doubt.

Ashley: 1:02:45

In Florida. She resumed her life of hitching from place to place until she met 24-year-old Tyra Jolene Moore at a bar in June 1986. Ty was born on August 3, 1962. Her mom died when she was two, but her dad, jack Moore, married Mary Ann a few years later. She had three brothers, michael James and Jackie, and a younger sister named Tracy. Ty was fun, easygoing, happy and very close to everyone in her family, especially her father, who was a well-regarded carpenter and bricklayer in Cadiz, ohio. She graduated from Harrison Hills Vocational School and, per one source, took a few classes at a local community college. Although she knew she was gay from a young age, she hid that from her parents until at least middle adulthood and when they found out they didn't kick her out or shun her or anything like that. Using settlement money from a car accident, she moved to Florida in 1983 and met and moved in with a woman and her two kids. After they broke up she was arrested for breaking into the woman's house to get back her own belongings. Other than that, the only other time she was arrested was for two minor traffic infractions in 1986 and 1987.

Ashley: 1:04:02

In early 1984, ty moved into a Daytona Beach neighborhood and became fast friends with her neighbor Cammie Green. Cammie and her husband even opened up their home to Ty when she was evicted. For the next two years she intermittently lived with the family or in vacant rooms at a motel where she was a custodian. Lee and Ty were inseparable from the moment they met in June 1986. For Lee it was love at first sight. In the two years that Greens knew Ty, she never brought home a woman until she asked if Lee could move into the home with them. A week after they met, lee claimed to own a pressure cleaning business, but it wasn't long before Cammie started questioning the mysterious houseguest's odd business hours. Lee typically left town on a Monday or Tuesday and wouldn't return until the weekend, but always with hundreds of dollars that her and Ty would promptly spend at the local bars. One day, when Lee was out, and shortly after she came home with a black eye, cammie opened her suitcase and discovered a slew of condoms, men's business cards and male jewelry like watches and rings. When she asked Lee about it, she was told the more expensive items were from customers who didn't have cash to pay the cleaning bill. Cammie wasn't buying it. She told Ty that she suspected Lee was a prostitute, and although Ty was well aware of how Lee made her money at this point, she feigned ignorance by claiming she shared the same suspicions. Cammie had other concerns about Lee's influence on Ty. She always bossed Ty around, seemed threatened by her friendships with other people and didn't really want her to work, instead preferring her woman to wait patiently around for her to come home. The Greens tiptoed around Lee until her and Ty abruptly moved out in August 1986. After that Cammie rarely saw her friend. They briefly moved back in in the spring of 1987, but this time Lee clashed with Cammie's husband and the two were kicked out for good. A few months later with Cammie's husband and the two were kicked out for good. A few months later, unbeknownst to Cammie, leigh swiped her driver's license. It would be many years before Cammie learned what really happened to it.

Ashley: 1:06:12

Leigh and Ty lived together for the next four and a half years. Ty sought employment in janitorial at motels, most often the Casa Del Mar. They drifted from motel to motel, often being evicted when they didn't pay rent on time or after Lee's temper caused her to clash with management. There were a few occasions when the evictions were from more serious transgressions, such as suspicion for stealing or vandalizing rooms. In between hotel stays they camped in the woods for a few weeks or stayed at RV parks. Their day-to-day life consisted of eating poorly, drinking cheap beer from sunup to sundown and fighting loudly and often. It wasn't unusual for their arguments to end in physical violence. But by all accounts the women were pretty evenly matched, while their relationship was clearly toxic.

Ashley: 1:07:03

Ty's work life was a high point for her. She worked hard and was well-liked by employees and guests wherever she went. She quickly made friends, which further fueled Lee's jealousy and fear of abandonment. Ty later claimed she tried to convince Lee to get a 9-to-5 job, but Lee outright refused. Instead she earned her beer and rent money the same way she had since she was 11 years old, by selling her body.

Ashley: 1:07:29

She found her customers while hitchhiking along the highway three to seven days a week. She typically got in the car with eight to 15 men a day and had sex with three to eight of them. She wasn't bothered when potential customers turned her down. Instead she asked to be dropped off at the nearest exit and tried again. She has said that there were times when she was sexually assaulted during these hitchhiking trips and I think also more frequently when she would spend late nights out at the bar. Before she met Ty, she was really into biker bars and that was just a really, really rough crowd. Between November 30th 1989 and November 18th 1990, so a little less than one year, lee murdered seven men between the ages of 40 and 65, most of whom were known to have large amounts of cash or valuables on them at the time of their disappearances.

Remi: 1:08:25

So they had been together for a little over three years when Lee began doing these crimes.

Ashley: 1:08:32

Yeah, a few of the men were divorcees, but most were married with kids and had well-respected jobs. Her MO was always the same. Once in the car she directed them to reclusive and highly wooded areas, shot them several times, often in the back, as they tried to escape, covered their bodies with brush or trash found at the scene, stripped them of their wallets and any other items she deemed valuable, and drove their cars for a few days before removing the license plates and dumping them. Removing the license plates and dumping them, she then used Cammie Green's ID to pawn most of the items she stole. This is eventually what would lead to her downfall, since Florida law required everyone selling items at pawn shops to identify themselves by signing a registrar and leaving a fingerprint. Lee's first victim was Richard Mallory, a VCR TV repair shop owner. He was last seen closing his shop at 6pm on November 30th 1989. His body was discovered by men scavenging for scrap metal on December 13th. That same day. His car was found by a sheriff who used the VIN number to identify the owner. Her second victim was David Spears. He was last seen leaving his job as a construction supervisor around 2 pm on May 18, 1990, so he could spend the weekend with his ex-wife, whom he still loved dearly. A young hiker found his body on June 1. He was shot six times. The third victim was Charles Karskadon. He left his Missouri home around 4 pm on May 31, 1990 to pick up his fiancée in Tampa. His car was found a week later but his body, which was identified based on dental records, wasn't discovered until December 11. He was shot nine times. The fourth victim was retired merchant seaman and part-time missionary Peter Seams. He left his home in Jupiter, florida, around 9 pm on June 7, 1990. He planned to drive to New Jersey to see his mom before spending a week in Arkansas with his son, since his wife was in Europe on a missionary trip. It was a few weeks before he was reported missing. His car was located on October 22, 1990. It was one of the few vehicles with fingerprints that would later be matched to Eileen Wuornos. His body was never found.

Ashley: 1:10:54

The fifth victim was Troy Burris, a delivery truck driver and part-time pool cleaner. His wife reported him missing around 2 am on July 31, pool cleaner. His wife reported him missing around 2 am on July 31, 1990. His broken-down delivery truck was located soon after and hikers found his body on August 4. Lee's next victim was Charles Humphreys, a retired Air Force major and former chief of police. He was last seen leaving work on September 1, 1990, the day after his 35th wedding anniversary. Two teenagers discovered his body on September 12, followed by his car a week later. He was shot seven times, three times in the back and once in the head. Eileen Wuornos' last victim was security guard and reserve police officer Walter Antonio. Victim was security guard and reserve police officer Walter Antonio. His body was discovered by the captain of the Tampa Bay Police Department on November 19, 1990, a day after he was killed. He was shot four times.

Remi: 1:11:54

Did you find out any details of whether or not Eileen was picked up for trying to prostitute herself or whether it was just like a hitchhiking thing? Because, as you've described, it seems like hitchhiking was kind of still happening pretty regularly during this time. I mean, two people in the story met their significant others that way, so is there a chance that she had just been hitchhiking and these guys picked her up?

Ashley: 1:12:19

So she found her customers by hitchhiking. As I said earlier, she would get on the highway, start hitchhiking. If a man picked her up, she would drive with him for a while. Proposition for sex If he said no, then she would ask to be dropped off and start again. So she had estimated that she got in the car with anywhere from eight to 15, 16 men a day and would have sex with three to eight of them 16 men a day and would have sex with three to eight of them.

Remi: 1:12:45

So many times these men would pick her up initially with not even having sex in mind or anything like that.

Ashley: 1:12:50

That's what it sounded like. She would present herself as my car broke down, I need a ride, I also need some money, I'm behind on rent. And then, if she felt safe with the men, she would say oh, I also have sex for money, and if she felt safe with the men, she would say oh, I also have sex for money.

Ashley: 1:13:10

Okay, that is very different than someone picking her up with the intention of paying for sex, and as far as if any of these men were going to have sex with her at the time of their deaths, it's really unknown. All we had is what Lee said happened and, as we'll find out later, her story was not believed.

Remi: 1:13:27

It sounds like the first man that she killed, richard Mallory, was pretty much undisputed that he was killed following a sexual encounter, but I'll tell you what people think happened at the trial after we talk about what her testimony was think happened at the trial, after we talk about what her testimony was, but it isn't believed that he tied her up and raped her and was planning on murdering her and was like torturing her by rubbing alcohol on her wounds and things like that.

Ashley: 1:13:53

No, that's very similar to what she testified to at trial. However, what she mentioned in her original confession is that they were in the car and he wouldn't take his pants off. He was apparently very body conscious and so he just unzipped his pants and she felt really threatened by that because she was in a vulnerable state of undress and just freaked out and shot him. And she did say she did it because she believed that he was keeping his clothes on so he could hurt her after he was done, so he could hurt her after he was done.

Ashley: 1:14:25

Ty was confronted with Lee's crimes the day after her first victim, richard Mallory, was killed in November 1989. This is because the day after each man was murdered, lee came home with a wad of cash and a car. Each time, she claimed, a friend loaned her the vehicle for a few days, which Ty didn't question, even though she knew Lee did not have any friends. When she brought home various goods like cameras, fishing rods and tools, she passed them off as bonuses her customers gave her in lieu of cash, which then she would later go and pawn.

Ashley: 1:14:56

Ty also saw at least three news reports on the missing men, which included descriptions of their vehicles. Lastly, there was at least one instance in which Lee confessed to killing a man. Ty later said she didn't believe her at first but as the circumstantial evidence mounted she attributed fear to the reason she didn't leave or make a report. And how Ty came to get this confession from Lee is they were watching TV and there was a news report about one of the missing men I believe the first one, richard Mallory, and a description of the car and they just kind of looked at each other and Lee was like guy killed a man.

Remi: 1:15:32

Wow, that is a blunt way to break that news.

Ashley: 1:15:36

And I'll play a little bit of this testimony that Ty gave about this situation. But it really did seem that it was just a casual thing and because it was brought up so casually, ty was like she's got to be messing with me and didn't really believe her. But as more men are going missing and the cars and money and random shit that Lee is bringing home and doesn't have much of an explanation for, as that grew she started being suspicious but didn't know for certain what was being done.

Remi: 1:16:09

I think she had an idea because of the car situation. It seems like that's why they even looked at each other while watching the news program was they both realized that's the car that's sitting out in front of our house? And then she says that I am more inclined to believe that she knew what was going on, but was turning the other way and just ignoring it and pretending like it wasn't. Minus the car aspect, though, if you and I were sitting on the couch watching a news story and I just turned to you casually and said that I killed a man, you probably would think I was joking too.

Ashley: 1:16:43

I probably would. Yeah, I'd chuckle. Lee and Ty's relationship started to unravel by mid-1990. There are a few major events that happen around this time. The first involved Lee crashing Peter Seam's car on July 4th. Several good Samaritans tried to help the women, but Lee knew that couldn't happen. Ty stood by silently as Lee lied about living nearby and drove the car away from the crash scene, ditching it after it broke down again.

Remi: 1:17:10

Is there any information on where the crash took place, like was it in a ditch on someone's property, or was it at an intersection, or was it on a side street, like where did this occur? Or was?

Ashley: 1:17:22

it on a side street, Like where did this occur? It sounded like it was kind of in a rural stretch of area in Florida and it was crashed into a ditch and there were several homes that were nearby and the crash was very loud. So they went out to investigate and there were several different homeowners I think two, maybe even three of them that saw them at different points.

Remi: 1:17:42

I'm sure for efficiency's sake they made it just the one homeowner in the film, so it sounds like it was a similar type of crash and road that they were on.

Ashley: 1:17:52

Let me rephrase. So it was crashed in front of these homeowners and then the homeowners called another neighbor who they thought could help. He came to help and then, when the car was ditched further down the road, those homeowners like looked out the window and saw the women like running away.

Remi: 1:18:07

Okay, so it was a lot of people saw this whole commotion going on.

Ashley: 1:18:12

After the car was matched to Peter Seams, who was missing at the time. Law enforcement spoke to four witnesses who gave descriptions used to create composite sketches of the female occupants. From then on, police operated under the assumption that two women were involved in the mounting murders. This theory was further strengthened by the fact that most relatives said their deceased or missing loved ones would only offer assistance to female hitchhikers. The second major turning point for Ty was when her 18-year-old sister, tracy, stayed with them in the summer of 1990. As always, lee didn't like having to compete for Ty's attention and worried the houseguest would convince Ty to leave Lee or move back to Ohio. Ty got Tracy a job at the Casa Del Mar Hotel the day she arrived. During weekends she focused on showing her sister a good time by taking her to the beach, movies or theme parks. After a trip to SeaWorld towards the end of the summer, tracy had enough of Lee's drinking and unpredictability and decided it was time to go. Ty also thought about leaving after Lee got her fired in September, but she hung around until she finally called her stepmother for bus fare home on November 29, 1990. This also just so happened to be the time law enforcement released the composite sketches generated from the July 4 crash to the public. Although Lee assured Ty they had nothing to worry about, ty was obviously rattled by the noticeable resemblance.

Ashley: 1:19:46

After Ty moved back to Ohio on December 2, 1990, lee briefly stayed at motels or with a few men she randomly met at bars. She actually seemed okay with the split at first, probably because she was sure they would reconcile once the heat died down. Sure they would reconcile once the heat died down. Reality seemed to set in towards the end of December as the man Lee was staying with remembered her constantly crying and trying to reach Ty on the phone. Tip calls started flooding in as soon as the composite sketches were released at the end of November 1990. America's Most Wanted even aired an episode featuring the unsolved murders and sketches. Ultimately, over 900 people called in with tips, which was far too many for the police to immediately check out. For example, it took them a while to get to the tip from Billy Copeland, a former neighbor, who remembered Lee's fondness for guns and slew of random items she always brought home. Or the one from Kathy Beesman, ty's former employer. Or the one from a guy who met Lee when she was trying to find a ghostwriter for an autobiography and he heard her share details about several unsolved murders.

Ashley: 1:20:55

By December 20th police had three names that were given by multiple tipsters Tyra Moore, cammie Green and Susan Blohovich, the latter two being aliases Lee used thanks to stolen IDs. Search of computerized pawn shop records turned up hits for Cammie Green. One of the thumbprints from these records led police to Colorado in search of Lori Grody, lee's sister. After hearing the name Eileen Wuornos for the first time, police compared mugshots and realized they finally had a viable suspect. So before Lee took Cammie Green's ID, she was using her sister's. So they were able to pull up Lori Grody's arrest records as well as an arrest record of Eileen Wuornos and saw it was the same person. And then they had the thumbprint from Cammie Green that had linked her to selling merchandise that was known to belong to the murdered men. So they knew Eileen was their woman. Their case was strengthened even further when ballistics from a gun kept as evidence from an arrest in June 1986 proved to be similar in caliber to the weapon used in several of the murders.

Ashley: 1:22:10

On July 5, 1991, police started trolling bars in Volusia County looking for signs of Lee or anyone who recognized her. Thanks to an earlier tip, detectives learned the address of Tyra Moore's parents and put a tap on their home phone. They also monitored the family's mail and subpoenaed phone records, all with the goal of finding out where Ty was. She wasn't living with her parents in Ohio at the time, so they were trying to figure out where she was living. Lee was placed under surveillance on January 8, 1991, after two detectives saw her shooting pool alone at a biker bar. The undercover officers struck up a conversation with her but declined to give her a ride since it was viewed as too risky. All three reconvened at the bar the next afternoon. After a bartender invited her to a pig roast.

Ashley: 1:23:02

That evening, the undercover detectives knew they had to act fast. She was arrested at 5 pm that day on the pretext of an outstanding 1987 warrant for grand theft and carrying a concealed weapon under the name of Lori Grody. A search of her purse revealed receipts from a storage unit she used to hold items stolen from her victims. Receipts from a storage unit she used to hold items stolen from her victims. Following an interview with her father, ty was placed in protective custody while working in Pittston, pennsylvania, on January 11, 1991. She was taken to a hotel by the airport and agreed to talk to Florida authorities. Although her family tried to send a lawyer to the hotel, ty refused counsel, thinking it would further complicate things, and I would not recommend this Anytime you're being questioned by the police for a crime, just take the lawyer.

Remi: 1:23:50

Yes, always get a lawyer.

Ashley: 1:23:54

During this first meeting Ty told police everything she knew about Lee, gave them descriptions of items she suspected belonged to the murdered men that were in her possession and agreed to fly to Florida. Although she appeared to be cooperating fully, she was still considered a suspect and was never once offered immunity. She was adamant she wasn't an accessory. After the fact, since she didn't knowingly cover up any crime or know for sure that Lee killed anyone or brought home stolen items, ty agreed to write Lee a letter saying she was back in Florida and wanted to talk to her. Little did Lee know Ty and law enforcement tapped the hotel phone and anxiously awaited her response.

Ashley: 1:24:38

The first call came in on January 14, 1991, followed by at least nine more the next two days. During the first eight calls Ty listened quietly as Lee rambled about the charges being a case of mistaken identity. But Ty took a more confrontational approach on January 16. During that call she said the police were coming after her since they interviewed her family. When she accused Lee of not loving her and setting her up, lee assured her she would confess to everything as long as it meant Ty would stay safe.

Remi: 1:25:14

In the film, it seems that all of these calls were condensed into just one phone call.

Ashley: 1:25:21

That same day, Lee told a corrections officer that she wanted to speak to the police. Although she asked for a lawyer, she blabbered on while waiting for the public defender to arrive. To the officer's credit, they did not ask her any questions and reminded her several times that she requested counsel. It's almost like she couldn't help herself.

Remi: 1:25:44

Eileen is a very loud brash woman.

Ashley: 1:25:48

Why she asked for a lawyer is beyond me, since she ignored his advice to end the interview. Instead, she gave a three-hour videotaped confession about the seven homicides, citing her desire to go to heaven and protect the innocent Tyra Moore as the reason she came clean. She gave them pretty much the same story as to why she murdered the seven men. For each case, she claimed she acted in self-defense and had no regrets because each tried to rape or kill her. Lee was housed in a maximum security unit while awaiting trial. She became a born-again Christian and seemed content with her surroundings, except for when she threatened to sue the facility for mental cruelty. It also wasn't unusual for her to be sent to segregation for threatening behavior. Guards were not allowed to initiate conversations with her when she was in segregation, but they were encouraged to write down everything she said. It wasn't unusual for her to gloat about her crimes by saying she provided a service to society since she stopped men who cheated on their wives or were bound to harm someone else.

Ashley: 1:27:09

This is very her arrest. She struck up a pen pal relationship with 44-year-old horse breeder Arlene Peril. Arlene married her husband, robert, in 1974. They didn't have children but considered adopting early in their marriage until Robert changed his mind. Arlene had recently moved to Florida when Lee was arrested and felt compelled by God to write to her. The letter soon led to weekly visits during which Lee spoke about her childhood and desire to be part of the family. The women also became increasingly annoyed that their visits were restricted to non-contact rooms since they weren't family. Although 35-year-old Lee and Robert only talked on the phone a few times, he went along with his 44-year-old wife when she adopted Lee in the fall of 1991.

Remi: 1:28:04

What? How does that work? I'm over 40. Can I be adopted? Still? That seems crazy.

Ashley: 1:28:11

It's a very, very, very weird situation. After the adoption, Arlene acted as Lee's public liaison. She spoke to the media on her behalf, always claiming Lee acted in self-defense.

Remi: 1:28:26

So she became like a PR person for Lee.

Ashley: 1:28:28

Basically, yeah, she also orchestrated several paid television interviews and helped broker a deal involving Lee's life rights being sold to filmmaker Jacqueline Gerhou.

Remi: 1:28:41

I am not familiar with Jacqueline.

Ashley: 1:28:44

I think very few people are going to be familiar with this filmmaker, Even though she secured Lee's life rates. That didn't stop CBS and Republic Pictures from moving forward with their own TV movie about Eileen Wuornos. In less than a month after Lee's arrest, there were rumors about three Marion County law enforcement officers being involved with the script and making a deal with production companies. This could pose a headache for prosecution, though, since they were nowhere close to a trial or even a conviction.

Remi: 1:29:17

This has come up previously, I think in Alpha Dog, where the film was being done around the same time as the trial and, as a result, certain things could potentially interfere with the trial if they are discussed on set.

Ashley: 1:29:31

Alpha Dog was a little different because it was when Johnny Hollywood was on the run and it sounded like the reason why prosecution decided to give Nick Cassavetes access to those tapes was because he was hoping it would help lead to his capture. In this case, Lee was arrested a month ago and three of the investigating officers who, if someone's arrested for seven murders after a month, that investigation is not over. These people were rumored to be in talks with production for a movie. Rumored to be in talks with production for a movie, but although this supposed deal would be brought up during later appeals, an official investigation into the officers' actions revealed that there was no wrongdoing or evidence to support that their investigated work was impacted by improper motivations.

Remi: 1:30:17

As far as I know, no police officers were consulted for the film Monster.

Ashley: 1:30:22

While there did seem to be some early meetings with producers, the investigators denied ever signing any sort of deal or taking any form of financial compensation. They said they didn't even get their fights paid for for these meetings. They didn't even get a comp dinner, nothing. It was just a few casual talks and then it was abandoned.

Remi: 1:30:41

Which does happen.

Ashley: 1:30:43

Jackie Garhou tried to initiate civil proceedings to stop the completed TV movie from being released in 1992. Unfortunately for her, her attorney filed the lawsuit too late. Overkill. The Eileen Wuornos story starring Hacks Jean Smart in the title role, premiered on November 17, 1992.

Remi: 1:31:06

I did not watch this film, but you showed me the movie poster of this film just so I could get an idea of how accurate this was. And I must say on the poster Eileen appears much more glamorous than any actual photo of her. I have ever seen, far more glamorous than Charlize Theron in Monster.

Ashley: 1:31:26

Yeah, she looks like a Bond girl.

Remi: 1:31:28

She looks very attractive and done up and very gorgeous. Honestly, it's not how you would picture this character at all.

Ashley: 1:31:37

Garhou finally raised enough money to start shooting her film Damsel of Death in September 2000. Who is picking?

Remi: 1:31:44

these titles? These are atrocious. Start shooting her film Damsel of Death in September 2000. Who is picking these titles?

Ashley: 1:31:47

These are atrocious. She was the director and took over the lead role following clashes with the leading lady. Unsurprisingly, there is virtually no information about this movie, but IMDb suggests it may or may not have been completed in May 2002.

Remi: 1:32:04

Could have been made and then couldn't get distributed and shelved. Happens all the time too.

Ashley: 1:32:10

Lee was indicted on criminal charges in five different counties in Florida by the fall of 1990, four county prosecutors were ready to make a deal involving Lee pleading guilty in exchange for life in prison. But the last DA demanded a death sentence. So at this point you really have nothing to lose but to go to trial. If the DA is saying they're going to seek the death penalty and they're not going to offer you a deal, there's no deal to take. So you just have to go to trial and just pray. At least maybe if you're convicted you won't be sentenced to death.

Remi: 1:32:47

If the DA has it out for you, that is extremely problematic for your case, as we also learned in Bernie.

Ashley: 1:32:57

At her trial, eileen was represented by Tricia Jenkins, the attorney who went on to represent Danny Rowling, aka Ghostface from Scream. A few years later, jenkins decided she was going to try to argue self-defense. She also planned to attack how the investigation was handled by the three officers accused of negotiating a movie deal by arguing that it got in the way of their police work.

Remi: 1:33:22

Which it would. If you're involved in an investigation, maybe don't start trying to sell the film rights when you're still involved with that investigation.

Ashley: 1:33:32

The trial for the murder of Richard Mallory, who was the first man she killed, kicked things off on January 13, 1992. The prosecution focused on the several different reasons Lee gave for the shootings during her confessions and subsequent interactions with jail staff. Testimony from investigators resulted in the defense requesting a mistrial, since they had a hard time omitting statements that Lee had gave during confessions about the other murders for which she hadn't yet been tried. The defense argued that allowing any information about those crimes would prejudice the jury and harm her chances of a fair trial in subsequent proceedings.

Remi: 1:34:14

Isn't it sort of relevant that she went on to murder several other people in this, though? I feel like that's something that is pertinent to the trial and not something that you should just be allowed to say ignore the other murders, we're only focusing on this one. Like she did, murder seven people.

Ashley: 1:34:32

And that's what the prosecution argued. They said that this information should be admitted as similar fact evidence, since it could be used to establish a pattern and speak to her self-defense claims.

Remi: 1:34:45

Sustained. I agree with that.

Ashley: 1:34:47

It probably would have been different if the crimes were different or the actions, motivations behind the murders were different. But since it was so similar, it is used to show that she has a pattern of this and can directly challenge that she was acting in self-defense. In the end the judge ruled that any statements Lee gave about the other murders so this would have been in videotape confessions and such she couldn't be asked about these other murders at this trial. But any recordings they already had could be used. But the jury could only use it to consider motive and intent. So they weren't supposed to say well, she committed these murders or confessed to these murders. That means she had to have done this first one. It could only be used to consider what her motivation was for doing it and whether she intended to kill the men in self-defense or not.

Remi: 1:35:42

Was there any evidence in the trial that supported her accusations that she had been attacked by some of these men?

Ashley: 1:35:50

It's really just her testimony.

Remi: 1:35:52

And she is a compulsive liar, so not the most reliable source to get this information from.

Ashley: 1:35:59

Tyra Moore was one of the last witnesses called by the prosecution. Tyra Moore was one of the last witnesses called by the prosecution. During her testimony, she spoke about the confession Lee gave shortly after Mallory's murder, including how Lee never mentioned that she was raped by him and didn't have any obvious signs of physical injury.

Remi: 1:36:15

Did you ask her anything about what she had just told her that she had just shot him? I don't believe I asked her any questions about it.

Tyria Moore: 1:36:20

I might have replied something like I don't believe I asked her any questions about it. I might have replied something like I don't believe you or something along that line. Did she say anything else at that point? Yeah, later she was telling me that she had put the body in the woods under a piece of rug and that she had dropped the car off up in Ormond Beach around John Anderson Drive. Did she tell you had dropped the car off up in ormond beach around john anderson drive?

Remi: 1:36:46

did she tell you anything about the car in relationship to? The man she had shot I believe she did at one point was it your understanding, based upon what she was telling you, that it's been the man that had gotten shot, whose car you guys have been in that day yes, it was tell you anything about why she shot the man. No, that is a very damning testimony.

Ashley: 1:37:12

Despite counsel strongly advising otherwise. Lee took the stand as the only witness called by the defense. The goal was to portray her as a vulnerable woman who purchased a gun to protect herself after she was repeatedly robbed, beaten and raped but couldn't go to the police because no one would take her claim seriously. Because she was a sex worker. And I do want to say I do fully believe that Lee was raped and beaten and robbed in her line of work. I don't believe that any of these men were the ones that did it to her. During her testimony, lee spoke about her history of abuse and inability to find work outside of the sex industry. She also accused Ty of threatening to end their relationship if Lee didn't bring home enough money. While talking about her interaction with Richard Mallory, she claimed he didn't have enough money to pay her after sex was initiated. When she tried to stop, he wrapped a cord around her neck, threatened to kill her, tied her to the steering wheel and anally raped her.

Remi: 1:38:16

This is what's portrayed in the film. Is her version of the story.

Ashley: 1:38:21

Once finished, she said he used alcohol to clean in and outside of her body, moved the rope to her neck, confessed to killing other women and began choking her.

Remi: 1:38:32

She would have definitely had visible wounds all over her body from this sort of attack, and does in the film.

Ashley: 1:38:42

She then said she killed him in self-defense after she was able to break free. During her initial confession she detailed what I had mentioned earlier that she was in the car with him, she was wearing only her undergarments and he didn't take off his shirt or pants, he just unzipped and she thought that that meant he was going to hurt her and didn't remove his clothes so he could get away. And then she reached down into her bag and got her gun and shot him, including as he ran away after he got out of the car, and got her gun and shot him, including as he ran away after he got out of the car.

Remi: 1:39:17

In the film that part is sort of shown where he's not getting undressed, and they begin to argue about that. They also have an argument about putting the money on the dash, and from there he knocks her out and then she wakes up to the part of her story that she claims happened Unsurprisingly.

Ashley: 1:39:38

cross-examination revealed holes in her story. For example, it was highlighted that she never talked about this brutal encounter with Ty or during her three-hour interrogation.

Monster Clip: 1:39:50

Did you in fact? Did you see anywhere that you were taken, or did you tell Detective Corseffa at any? Time that you were strangled with cord by Mr Mountain.

Aileen Wuornos: 1:40:01

Well, every time I tried to start telling him about what was happening, he'd interrupt me and ask me how many times was this person shot? What kind of items did you take? Did he say anything after he was? When you shot him? Where did you leave his car? I never got a chance to ever express myself. I was always interrupted. So you say the reason you didn't say this is because you were interrupted.

Ashley: 1:40:32

Pardon, you just were cut off. You didn't have a chance to tell Exactly. I tried to find that three-hour confession because before her trial the judge did say it could be released to the public. So it was out there circulating at some point, but it doesn't exist anymore. After just 90 minutes of deliberation, Lee was convicted of first-degree murder and robbery with a firearm on January 27, 1992.

Remi: 1:41:01

90 minutes is a pretty short deliberation. This jury was pretty decided, it sounds.

Ashley: 1:41:07

After the verdict was read, she yelled.

Remi: 1:41:16

She doesn't yell all of that in the film, but she does yell some of that.

Ashley: 1:41:21

Four psychological experts testified at her sentencing hearing the next day. They all diagnosed her with borderline personality disorder. Her older brother, Barry, avoided eye contact as he insisted their father never be any of his children. Eye contact, as he insisted their father never be any of his children. I imagine having your own brother testify against you at your sentencing hearing would be a kick in the gut. But remember, just because he said his dad wasn't abusive doesn't mean that he wasn't, at least to Lee. He was the golden child and left home when Lee was 10. And it sounds like the abuse started getting really worse around that time. After 108 minutes of deliberation, Lee was sentenced to death on January 30th 1992. She reiterated that she was a victim and claimed there was a conspiracy against her when giving her final statement.

Aileen Wuornos: 1:42:13

Now I'd like to point out one other thing is that the law enforcement has framed me a serial killer, purposely for books and movies, and I have been since. I've been incarcerated a year in jail, have gone through a lot of physical and mental abuse, which I feel is being a conspiracy through the law enforcement, and I also believe the law enforcement and the state attorneys have a conspiracy here and I've been. And I have to say another thing, for as far as manipulation was talked about yesterday in the courtroom, I believe state of Tanner, state attorney Tanner, was the one manipulating the jury which he had made a whole lot of things up. They were just things were just made up at the top of his head, were not true, and I felt that he lied right through his teeth. I was up in that stand there and I did not lie.

Aileen Wuornos: 1:43:13

I was coerced in making my confessions. I was threatened that Tyra Moore would be arrested if I did not talk about confessions. I was also course and threatened and told that if I did not answer their questions the way they wanted me to I mean their questions and I did it any other way that she would be arrested and the questions that they asked me were strictly to implicate me as a serial killer, when every time I talked about a rape they cut me off and they had my mind all messed up, where I was hysterical, I was in trauma and I was alcohol withdrawing. I have been totally under duress and delirium and I didn't. I couldn't tell you what happened anyway, I couldn't remember anything Denial is a hell of a drug.

Remi: 1:44:08

I'm not hearing a lot of remorse in those parting words.

Ashley: 1:44:13

Lee pled no contest, which is basically the same as a guilty verdict but you don't have to say I'm guilty on the record to the murders of David Spears, troy Burris and Charles Humphreys on March 31st 1992. This time she was represented by Steve Glazer, the attorney who helped with her adoption adoption. Although he had no experience with murder cases, lee and Arlene convinced him to represent her after she fired Trisha Jenkins because she was unhappy about some of her calls being declined and the perceived lack of in-person visits.

Remi: 1:44:48

So I'm assuming the logic there was just you're a lawyer.

Ashley: 1:44:53

A lawyer that got her an outcome she wanted, even if it wasn't related to a criminal matter.

Remi: 1:45:01

I think he might be in a bit over his head with this sort of thing.

Ashley: 1:45:07

After four hours of deliberation, Lee was sentenced to death three more times on May 15, 1992, a decision she did not take too kindly.

Aileen Wuornos: 1:45:19

Thank you and probably see I'll be up in heaven while y'all are rotting in hell.

Patty Jenkins: 1:45:27

You'll handle that. I hope you get raped in the ass one of these days.

Judge: 1:45:32

Okay, there will be an automatic appeal. You have the right to an appeal, Mr Glazer. Is that going to be handled by you or the public defender?

Aileen Wuornos: 1:45:37

May your wife and kids get raped.

Judge: 1:45:38

I would ask that you would appoint the public defender's office. Okay, I'll appoint the public defender's office to handle the appeal. There's one other thing that I want to say that I think needs to be said.

Aileen Wuornos: 1:45:49

I know I was raped. You weren't nothing but a bunch of scum. Therefore, these proceedings are not putting somebody who was raped to death.

Ashley: 1:46:01

Fuck her. And for those of you who are listening and not watching that video, as she stands up and is walking out, she flips the bird to the judge.

Remi: 1:46:10

She is a lot less sympathetic in real life than she is on screen, I must say.

Ashley: 1:46:19

Lee pled guilty to the murder of Charles Karsgadon in June 1992 and received her fifth death sentence in November. Finally, she pled guilty to the murder of Walter Antonio and was sentenced to death again in February 1993.

Remi: 1:46:35

So she is sentenced to death seven times.

Ashley: 1:46:39

No six times because no charges were brought against her for the murder of Peter Seams since his body was never found. So she gets charged and convicted of six counts of first-degree murder and gets a death sentence for each count, Since each count you're convicted of, you get a sentence for so even if one were to be overturned somehow, she would still have five more death sentences.

Ashley: 1:47:05

During her last sentencing hearing, she actually had waived her right to present mitigating evidence, which is any sort of testimony or facts or anything that could help reduce the sentence by talking about things that could reduce someone's culpability.

Remi: 1:47:23

Because the DA had it out for her and she opted not to do it.

Ashley: 1:47:27

The DA couldn't say you can't present it. She had to make that decision. I'm assuming she did, because she had already been sentenced to death five times before. So what's the point? But she did launch into her typical diatribe of complaints involving self-defense and not getting a fair trial, which resulted in the judge threatening to gag her.

Ashley: 1:47:48

Lee was incarcerated on death row at the Broward Correctional Institute in Fort Lauderdale. She was in her cell 23 hours a day but was permitted to have a radio and a small black and white TV. Contact, visits and phone calls were strictly prohibited. In late 1993, arlene Peril spent six months in Tennessee helping a sick friend, and her absence infuriated Lee. Arlene continued to write her, but contact dwindled by the time she moved to the Bahamas with her husband after he retired in 2000.

Ashley: 1:48:22

Lee also didn't make things easy for prison officials. She accused the officers of messing with her food, encouraging her to kill herself, threatening to rape her and subjecting her to other forms of harassment. Predictably she filed numerous unsuccessful appeals during the initial years of her prison sentence, but after that she seemed to accept her death sentences. But an attorney from the Capital Collateral Regional Council was assigned to her case in 1999. So anytime someone is sentenced to death, they automatically get appeals, like they're automatically filed, because you want to exhaust all of your appeals before you put someone to death to prevent the chance that an innocent person would be sentenced to death. Clearly she's not innocent, but she still gets that same rights as anyone else.

Remi: 1:49:11

What if someone doesn't want to appeal? Are they allowed to refuse appeal?

Ashley: 1:49:15

We get to that shortly. Actually, the judge granted an evidentiary hearing in February 2001, during which defense argued procedural errors resulted in Lee being sentenced to death rather than life in prison.

Remi: 1:49:30

What sort of procedural errors?

Ashley: 1:49:32

They made a few, so one they tried to argue ineffective assistance of counsel from both of her prior defense attorneys. Steve Glazer got the brunt of the chastising since he was the one who represented her when she pled guilty in no contest. But in defense of his representation, he said by the time he came along, lee told him she wanted the cases over with quickly because she made peace with the initial death sentence, which made sense to him given her legal circumstances. They also pointed out the fact that in her trial the jury only took a little over an hour to say she was going to be given the death sentence and it was unanimous. In the ones where she pled no contest and guilty it took the jury several hours longer to decide the death sentence and not all of them agreed. I think in most of those cases it was like one was 10 and 2, and one was 7 and 5.

Remi: 1:50:31

You said the second one was like four hours, I believe.

Ashley: 1:50:34

So if you're looking at the amount of time it's taking for the jury to decide death and how many of the jurors actually voted against death in that situation, steve Glazer was a better attorney for Lee in those cases, even though she pled guilty.

Remi: 1:50:49

I was going to comment on that actually, because the first one was only an hour and a half and that is so quick. Four hours is still pretty quick, but it does show that there was a bit more deliberation.

Ashley: 1:51:01

The other thing they brought up as the procedural error was the cops' investigation, but that was determined to not have an impact on the outcome. During this hearing, Ty was actually called to testify. She came to court with her new partner wearing matching outfits and avoided Lee's gaze. This was the last time the two women ever saw each other. In the end, Lee's motion for post-conviction relief was denied.

Remi: 1:51:27

That is the ultimate way of saying I have moved on and I just want you out of my life forever. This is the last time I will ever be in the room with you, hopefully.

Ashley: 1:51:39

That same month. So we're still in February 2001,. Lee's wish to die led to a hearing to determine if she was competent to make the decision to end her appeals and proceed with execution. So after that motion for post-conviction relief was denied, she actually did start writing to the courts and DAs saying I don't want to do any more appeals, let's just cut to the chase. And the attorneys who were representing her at the time raised the competency issue. There is a standard to decide if someone is competent to be executed, because it is ruled as cruel and unusual punishment to put someone to death who doesn't understand what's going to happen to them. Most of the time this would come up is if someone with a intellectual disability wasn't understanding that when they are going to get a lethal injection, for example, that they're not just going to wake up tomorrow. Or if someone is so psychotic that they think they're going to die and, I don't know, go into space or something.

Remi: 1:52:44

And because Eileen didn't want to do more appeals. That's why this was brought up, because she was like I don't have a chance regardless. This is probably just going to string along the inevitable, like she's going to be sentenced to death, but this would prolong it for years potentially. But the fact that she doesn't want to do that brings up her competency.

Ashley: 1:53:07

That's what her lawyers were arguing. So to determine her competency, she was evaluated by three forensic psychologists, one for the defense and two for the state. The psychologist for the defense thought that Lee wasn't competent to be executed or waive her right to appeals, citing beliefs about the prison poisoning her food and monitoring her through an old PA system in her cell. The two other psychologists, one of whom which contracted with the FBI, disagreed. They testified that Lee understood everything she needed to in order to proceed. They disagreed that she was psychotic. Given the nature of distrust in prison, they didn't think that her desire to proceed with execution was suicidal. During questions about this, she recognized the weight of the evidence against her and said she wasn't afraid of dying, made peace with God and was looking forward to the afterlife.

Remi: 1:54:01

That does not seem crazy to me, in all honesty.

Ashley: 1:54:06

No, the other psychologist thought she was psychotic because she was accusing the prison of poisoning her food and making other seemingly paranoid statements. Food and making other seemingly paranoid statements. But if you think about it, most inmates in prison, especially those charged with violent crimes that have personality pathology, do have a general distrust of authority. So thinking or accusing the prison of monitoring you or messing with you or tampering with your food, it doesn't make someone psychotic.

Remi: 1:54:37

And she was claiming a lot of conspiracies prior to being incarcerated as well.

Ashley: 1:54:43

In the end, she was ultimately found competent to be executed. Shortly after this ruling, she gave her first interview in which she confessed to lying about shooting her victims in self-defense.

Aileen Wuornos: 1:54:56

I've got to come clean that I killed those seven men in first-degree murder and robbery, as they said. They had it right. Serial killer, not so much like thrill kill. I was into the robbing biz. I mean, you know serial killers are in this thrill killing jazz. I was into the robbing and eliminate a witness, but still then again I got a number. So it's serial killer. But I'm coming clean before I go in that execution chamber and be executed. I killed them and so when you met them from the beginning?

Monster Clip: 1:55:29

did you know that you were going to kill them when they picked you up in their cars?

Aileen Wuornos: 1:55:37

I pretty much had them selected that they were going to die.

Remi: 1:55:42

That interview just confirmed my verdict.

Ashley: 1:55:46

In the following months, Lee wrote two letters to the Florida Supreme Court and state attorney's office asking to proceed with execution. She expressed no remorse in her letters, instead saying she would kill again if she was ever given the opportunity.

Remi: 1:56:01

She didn't show any remorse in court either.

Ashley: 1:56:04

I don't think she did feel bad about what she did.

Remi: 1:56:07

Agreed. I don't think she was remorseful for her actions at all. I think she was a psychopath Is that the correct term for this person?

Ashley: 1:56:16

Yes, I would say she would probably score very high on the psychopathy checklist.

Remi: 1:56:23

Zero emotion, zero sympathy, a lot of conspiracies, everything is about them and yeah, it's pretty despicable. It's chilling to watch her, too, the expression on her face while she's saying. This is cold, it's not remorseful, it's not shameful, it's not anything. It's very much. Here are the facts.

Ashley: 1:56:43

Her defense team again raised the competency issue, but the judge disagreed. After he questioned her at length to be absolutely sure that she understood the right, she would be given up by abandoning further appeals. She was again found competent to make the decision.

Remi: 1:56:58

She knew what she was doing.

Ashley: 1:57:01

In the weeks before her execution, she gave a series of interviews to documentarian Nick Broomfield. In the last interview, the day before she was put to death, she talked about being tortured in prison, being served poisoned food and her head being crushed by Sonic pressure.

Aileen Wuornos: 1:57:18

And every time I was trying to write something and I think they had some kind of eye in the cell, I'm not sure, but every time I started writing something it went up higher. So I'm thinking that probably had the TV rigged. The TV or the mirror or something was rigged. They got a huge satellite on the compound. After they put the huge satellite on the compound it could have been either rigged to the TV set or the mirror or something, because the electrician, when he put the mirror on the wall, he said doesn't that look like a computer?

Ashley: 1:58:09

The back of it and they stuck it to the wall. So this is kind of tough because the stuff she does say about sonic pressure does sound pretty wild and out there. Someone can say these things and not truly in her core believe them or say these things but it not really have a decision or impact on why she wants to die. So if she goes in there and has been saying for years that she's fully convinced that she's being tortured for this sonic pressure and she wants to die because she wants the torture to stop, that would raise red flags about competency to make this decision. But it seems like for her the real motivation behind it is just she understands she's gonna die at some point, she's made peace with God and wants to go on to a better life. Lee chose to end her life via lethal injection over the electric chair. She declined her last meal and instead opted for a cup of coffee on October 9th 2002. She was pronounced dead at 9.57am. Her last words were yes. I would just like to say I'm sailing with the rock and I'll be back like Independence Day with Jesus June 6th, like the movie big mothership and rock, and I'll be back like Independence Day with Jesus, june 6th. Like the movie big mothership and all, I'll be back. I'll be back.

Ashley: 1:59:24

She was the second woman put to death in Florida and the 10th in the entire country since the Supreme Court restored capital punishment in 1976. Her ashes were scattered beneath a tree in Michigan by her childhood friend. Don Lee continued to declare her love for Ty until the very end. Speaking of Tyra Moore, she kept a pretty low profile. After Lee's execution, she married her partner in Ohio on May 22, 2016. Records suggest she lives in Pennsylvania and worked as a forklift driver. 2016,. Records suggest she lives in Pennsylvania and worked as a forklift driver, and that is the true story of Patty Jenkins' monster Remy. Do you have any initial thoughts? I'm sure you have a lot, but any that don't directly speak to what we'll be talking about when we give our verdict.

Remi: 2:00:10

I think I'm going to have to save most of my thoughts for the verdict portion. I have a lot of thoughts on this film and the fact that they had to change Lee's girlfriend into Selby for the screen version really did change a lot of things. But again, I want to save most of it for our next portion of the show.

Ashley: 2:00:31

Well, before we do get to the verdict and our objection of the week, let's talk about Selby for a bit. So you mentioned they obviously had to change a lot about her because tyra moore did not want her likeness to be used and patty jenkins respected that. Are there things that you think they could have maintained from the original story of ty to make it more accurate to the true story? I can think of several.

Remi: 2:01:01

I can think of several as well. I think the fact that the choice was made to make her very young, very small, very diminutive, very unassuming really does affect how you see their relationship, and that is a big inconsistency as how their relationship was portrayed. They were together for four and a half years. The film it seems like it's maybe a year. It seems like they get together right at the beginning when she starts killing people and the fact that they were together for three years before that. In real life that's a long time to be with someone and then they begin doing this sort of thing. I just think their choice to make it this young girl rather than someone closer to her age really changed a lot of the dynamic of the entire relationship and how you even see Lee on screen relationship and how you even see Lee on screen.

Ashley: 2:02:01

I think they could have still made Selby be more of a passive personality character, but not have her seem that she is just sitting around at Lee's beck and call, just blissfully unaware of everything that's going around her. They could have also had her still have a job throughout this whole time and be the one who is supporting the couple as well. Sure, you don't want to put her in a hotel because that's too similar. Have her work at gas stations or something. There could have been like little things that they could have still maintained from the true story that would have impacted the portrayal of this relationship in general.

Remi: 2:02:37

Agreed, and there is even a portion in the film where Selby goes out and she hangs out with some friends for a while and I was wondering where did she get these friends from? At the beginning of the movie she's sitting at the bar alone, basically like begging for someone to come over and start a conversation. Everyone's ignoring her. Someone comes over to her table and actually just takes the chair to bring over and start a conversation. Everyone's ignoring her. Someone comes over to her table and actually just takes the chair to bring it over to another group and then later on she's shown to have a pretty decently sized group of friends, but no real mention of how she knows these people.

Remi: 2:03:10

It seems like she's been pretty lonely and just moved in after being kicked out of her parents' house and met Lee pretty early. So I don't know. It was strange that she suddenly had friends later on in the film, but in real life there's reasons why she would have friends in that. So I think changes like that negatively impacted the story overall as far as even like making sense, because you're wondering like wait, where did these people come from? She just went out and met friends when.

Ashley: 2:03:39

How. Another thought I had, which I'm sure will be a point brought up in our verdict, but I think it's a good discussion point now. Why do you think that Patty Jenkins decided to depict the first killing as this brutal rape? Because if I were that man's family I would be furious.

Remi: 2:04:00

This part is a pretty big factor in my verdict and Patty Jenkins' statements about how she hoped the families of the victims didn't see the film. But if they did see the film she could hope that they would understand that she wasn't portraying the victims in a negative light. That first victim is portrayed in the most negative light possible.

Ashley: 2:04:22

He had shovels and lime in his trunk.

Remi: 2:04:25

And I feel like that choice was made to make Lee more sympathetic. I feel like every choice in this movie was to make Lee more sympathetic and it worked. I sympathized with her at the end when she was saying goodbye to Selby. Everything I know about the real Eileen and what I've seen. I don't sympathize with her the way that I do the film version and a lot more of that I will hold on to. But it is important to have a character leading your film that is sympathetic, and I think these changes were made because Eileen is not a sympathetic person and you have to do something. Instead of just having her be a murdering psychopath, you want to have her have some feeling inside. But it seems like even when she confessed to the murders, it was cold, it was matter of fact and it was just offhand, and in the film she is breaking down and crying. It creates sympathy and, knowing what I know now, it just it factors into my verdict heavily as well as my objection actually.

Ashley: 2:05:28

Ah well, that's a good segue. Let's get into our objection.

Remi: 2:05:32

Your Honor, I object. And why is that, Mr Reed? Because it's devastating to my case. Overruled. Good call. I will start things off this week and a little reminder. Our Objection of the Week is the most unnecessary, superfluous change made between the adaptation from true story to movie, and mine actually might get disqualified because it's kind of a bigger one.

Remi: 2:05:57

My objection this week is the fact that they didn't show the stolen ID being used at the pawn shop, which is what ultimately led to her arrest. And in the film it's kind of unclear how the undercover police officers find her at the bar all of a sudden and arrest her right away. And it seems like it would have been very easy to include her swiping the ID after one night just in case and using it to pawn off some stuff. So it's kind of a big thing, but it's kind of a little thing and I feel like it was probably a director's choice not to include that. You have less sympathy with her when you see her pawning off these items, so it's kind of a big one. But yeah, I feel like they should have at least shown that was how she was arrested.

Ashley: 2:06:43

Did they show her going into pawn shops at all in the movie?

Remi: 2:06:46

No, not once, which I think is kind of a big omission, but yeah, I couldn't think of a small one. The fact that Selby is portrayed so differently impacted a lot of things, but this is something that I felt needed to be included and it wasn't. And it seems like it could have been a really easy thing to just one quick shot of her swiping Aunt Donna's ID when she's at Selby's house for one night, have her stopping into a pawn shop really quickly, and it's literally like one or two scenes you would have to add and it would connect the dots so much more. And the fact that it was excluded seems like it made the story more convoluted, I agree.

Ashley: 2:07:25

I think that is too big.

Remi: 2:07:28

So my objection gets an objection this week. So I am disqualified this week. I couldn't think of a small one.

Ashley: 2:07:34

Even if we leave yours in, mine still wins. Mine is when they crashed the car. The excuse she gave in the movie to try to prevent the people from calling the police is that she didn't have insurance. In the book I read it said the excuse she gave is that she just lived down the road anyway.

Remi: 2:07:52

Yes, you win. Mine was too big. Yours is just right for the objection of the week.

Ashley: 2:07:57

This was a challenging one, though I will say that, and for reasons that we will discuss right now during our verdicts.

Narrator: 2:08:06

At the conclusion of each episode, our hosts will deliver a verdict based on the film's accuracy. If the film is an honest portrayal of the events, then it will earn a not guilty verdict. If the film is an honest portrayal of the events, then it will earn a not guilty verdict. If the adaptation is mostly factual but creative liberties were taken for the sake of entertainment, the film will be declared a mistrial. But if the film ultimately strays too far from the truth, then it will be condemned as guilty and sentenced to a life behind bars.

Ashley: 2:08:34

All right, Remy, I'll kick us off. Since you started the last bit, I was really hopeful that this movie was gonna turn it around. I landed on my verdict pretty early, while you were talking about the movie halfway through, but I just thought there might be something here that can change my mind. Just thought there might be something here that can change my mind. But I have to give Monster, despite the superb performance by both actresses, a guilty verdict. And there are a few big reasons here.

Ashley: 2:09:09

The first is everything we have been talking about Selby. They had to change so much and they didn't even have to change everything that they elected to so that not only impacted how this second title role character was portrayed but also, like you had pointed out, just really how their whole relationship was depicted. My second reason I'm giving this a guilty verdict is how the murder of Richard Mallory was portrayed. I think that was an incredibly unfair choice to take these seven men and have him the one that she testified just awful things about at trial, which was probably so difficult for the family, and then to subject them to this again in movie form. And then my third is that they didn't show the pawning items. So those were the three biggest reasons that I gave monster a guilty verdict well, I'm gonna pretty much echo exactly what you're saying.

Remi: 2:10:06

I agree this is a guilty. I did initially have hoped that this would be a mistrial, despite the differences made with Selby, but how they changed her and the choices made with the character. Like you said, they could have kept some things intact while still keeping her anonymity, but they chose to make her this other character. And again.

Remi: 2:10:31

I think every single choice was to make Lee sympathetic and Lee is not a sympathetic woman in real life in my opinion. But the most damning thing is by far the first victim. That is inexcusable in my mind. Eileen herself is on camera confessing that that is not what occurred. Ty had a testimony where she confirmed that there were no bruises or any sort of injuries on her body. It just all, like you said, leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I feel like it's wrong that the film portrayed that specific event the way that they did, because that does give you a lot of sympathy again for the character.

Remi: 2:11:17

I do think that the real Eileen went through tons of trauma in her life. I do believe that she was sexually abused. I do believe she had been raped in her time on the streets doing what she had to do, but I don't think that her victims tried to rape her. I don't think that these men that she killed were necessarily threats to her. I think that they were an ends to a means for her and the film just should not have portrayed the event that way. Period. That is not what happened.

Remi: 2:11:46

That is confirmed to not be what happened, and portraying a victim that way is gross and irresponsible is gross and irresponsible, and I was not a big Patty Jenkins fan, but that choice really made me lose a lot of respect for her. So guilty on both sides for this one. Not taking anything away from Charlize Theron's performance at all, it is still spectacular and I do think she did a good job portraying her. But my biggest note would be she portrayed her as being more emotional than the real Eileen was. Eileen was cold and in the movie she had a lot of feelings, she was emotional, and that's just not the person that I learned about in this episode.

Ashley: 2:12:29

I think we've gotten tougher as our judgeship has progressed over the seasons.

Remi: 2:12:35

This one is a justifiable guilty verdict on all accounts in my mind, but I think there's been a few others that maybe we were harder on than we should have been, but sometimes juries are harder on certain cases than others. It's just part of the criminal justice system.

Ashley: 2:12:51

Well, with that, we actually have a couple announcements. Well, with that, we actually have a couple announcements. The first is that we're going to be taking a little break from our regularly scheduled programming in the next two weeks. But don't worry, that does not mean we're having no episode at all. It means we are bringing our season's bonus episode and I am so proud of it. It is another tearjerker, Remy. What episode do we have coming in two weeks?

Remi: 2:13:20

For our next bonus episode. We are covering the life of the late great Brandon Lee and all that could have been, and I learned a tremendous amount about this man and the short life that he lived, and it's a really good episode and I hope that you all tune in. For those of you unfamiliar with him, he is the star of the Crow and, of course, Bruce Lee's son as well, and we get into all of that but is primarily focused on Brandon Lee's life, which is, I think, something that goes missed in a lot of the stories that focus purely on his death. But we will, of course, go into the tragedy in the Crow and everything else about it. But that is then. And what about after that? Ashley, it's going to be a bit of a change of pace.

Ashley: 2:14:06

We are going to be lightening things up a bit by talking about a relatively new movie and the second by director Richard Linklater that we will be covering Hitman starring Glenn Powell.

Remi: 2:14:18

It is a Netflix film. It is available if anyone wants to stream it on the same platform that I will be streaming it on. It's a lighthearted romantic comedy and I don't know anything about the real story, but I do remember the second that we watched this film and found out it was a true story. I vetoed something that was on our list and said we're putting this on the list just because I need to know how much of this is actually true. So that is something we will be getting into in the episode after our bonus episode, and we will be leaving you with a short little taste of the hitman before we go. But until then court is adjourned.

Narrator: 2:15:11

I guess I'm just your fantasy. So what's the biggest difference between the real you and your occupation?

Ashley: 2:15:23

By the way, my name is Gary Johnson and I'm a fake hitman.

Patty Jenkins: 2:15:31

I realize not everyone fantasized about the same hitman. Every sting operation was a performance. This is serious. I am in service business and each arrest was like a standing ovation. Okay, Daniel Day.