Criminal Adaptations
Criminal Adaptations is a True Crime/Movie Review Podcast discussing some of your favorite films, and the true crime stories that inspired them. With hosts Remi, who spent over a decade working in the film and television industry, and Ashley, a clinical psychologist and forensic evaluator. They discuss a new movie each week and compare the film to the real life events that the film is based on.
Criminal Adaptations
Bully
In this gripping episode we drive deep into the chilling true store behind Bully (2001), directed by Larry Clark and based on the murder of 20-year-old Bobby Kent. We explore the disturbing dynamics between Bobby and his so-called friends who orchestrated and carried out this brutal crime. Through a detailed comparison of the movie and the actual case, we uncover what the film got right, what it changed, the impact this shocking crime had on those involved. We also unpack the sordid production and the trail of tragedy that followed nearly ever teen actor involved.
Primary Sources:
- Schutze, Jim. Bully: A True Story of High School Revenge. Avon Books (1997).
- Forensic Files (2018)
- CrimeJuicy Cocktail Hour (2021)
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Welcome to Criminal Adaptations, the show where we take a look at some of your favorite movies and the true crime stories that inspired them. I'm Ashley. I'm a clinical psychologist and forensic evaluator in the state of Oregon.
Remi:And I'm Remy. I spent over a decade working in the film and television industry in Los Angeles, California.
Ashley:And welcome back everyone. We hope you enjoyed the comedic reprieve from two weeks ago, because now we are in for something a bit heavy, in my opinion, probably the most brutal case we've discussed to date. What do you think, remy?
Remi:we've discussed today. What do you think, remy? This is the first time I have ever had more notes for my pre and post production than I do for the film itself. It is a crazy story, by the way, everyone. This week we will be discussing Larry Clark's film Bully. Ashley, had you heard of the film Bully?
Ashley:Bully is about the murder of Bobby Kent that took place in 1994 in Florida. I had not heard about this case before. It essentially involves seven teenagers deciding to murder their friend, Bobby Kent, who bullied several of them.
Remi:And you said you hadn't seen this film before, correct?
Ashley:I have never seen this movie. I had never even really heard about it until we were brainstorming episodes for this podcast way before we even started filming, and this is one of the first ones you actually mentioned, along with Death of Dick Long, so another one that we've been sitting on for a while.
Remi:And I have actually seen this movie a few times. Believe it or not, I don't know what that says about me, but I was a big fan of the movie Kids as a Teenager, which was Larry Clark's first film, who also directed Bully so I sought this one out as soon as I heard about it. Now I will be the first to admit that I was a troubled teen growing up, so a lot of these characters and situations in Kids and Bully did remind me a lot of my own time as a teenager minus the rape and murder of course.
Ashley:Well, that is good to know.
Remi:And as far as this film's casting goes, brad Renfro. Had you heard of Mr Renfro? He is the main character of this film. Marty Puccio.
Ashley:I know he was in the movie Tom and Huck, but to be honest, when I saw that as a preteen, I had eyes for one star, and one star only, and that was JTT.
Remi:I think I was probably a little bit jealous of JTT's fame and popularity when I was a little kid, so I was definitely more of a Brad Renfro fan and I had seen him in the Client Apt Pupil. He had been around for a while and he was a good child actor and I had heard of some of his personal demons. But until doing the research for this podcast I had no idea how severe they actually were.
Ashley:Before we get into all of that, let's start with pre-production. This is something I know, Remy. You have been itching to tell me about for the past two weeks, so now is your time to shine.
Bully (clip):I can't believe I'm fucking doing this right now. I'm fucking adrenaline Shut the fuck up, Donnie.
Bully (clip):Wow, you know what? You really shouldn't yell like that.
Remi:Bully is a 2001 film directed by Larry Clark, written by David McKenna under the pseudonym of Zachary Long. The film stars Brad Ranfro, bijou Phillips, rachel Miner, michael Pitt, leo Fitzpatrick, daniel Franzese, kelly Garner and Nick Stahl. By the age of 16, larry Clark began injecting amphetamines and taking photographs of himself and his friends while growing up in Tulsa, oklahoma. Clark's affinity for photography continued into his adult life, with his work primarily focusing on underage teenagers who were part of a specific subculture, such as surfing, punk rock or skateboarding, and who usually engaged in illegal drug use, unprotected sex and senseless violence.
Ashley:I'm already getting such bad vibes and senseless violence.
Remi:I'm already getting such bad vibes. Clark would make his feature filmmaking debut with 1995's Kids, which focuses on a group of reckless teenagers navigating through a typical day in New York City while unknowingly spreading HIV to unsuspecting virgins depicted with jarringly shocking realism.
Ashley:This is a movie you had me watch not too long ago. You got my buy-in by letting me know that it was starring Chloe Sevigny and Rosario Dawson, and I will say it was a good film, but certainly one that is not for everyone.
Remi:It is a hard watch and it is Rosario Dawson and Chloe Sevigny's feature film debut, and they have gone on to much bigger and better things since then. But yeah, kids is a very good film, but it is a very shocking, disturbing and it's just something that most people probably would not want to watch more than one time. For Clark's second film, bully, american History X screenwriter David McKenna wrote several drafts of the screenplay, all of which were turned down by Clark in favor of scenes taken directly from Jim Schutz's book Bully, a True Story of High School Revenge.
Ashley:Wow, two comments on that. First, what a coincidence that we picked this to do the same season that we have our double feature season finale that is going to include American History X. And second, that is the book I read for my primary research of this true case.
Remi:Clark said that earlier drafts of the screenplay had removed any implication that the victim, bobby Kent, may have been a closeted homosexual. But Clark insisted that the subtext of Kent's sexuality needed to be included in the final version of the film. Up-and-coming former child star Brad Renfro had already made a name for himself with such hits as the Client Tom and Huck, sleepers and Apt Pupil, so when he was brought in to play Bobby Kent in the film, the remaining actors were cast around him.
Ashley:Is Sleepers. That movie we watched not too long ago with Kevin Bacon.
Remi:We watched it a few years ago. But yes, kevin Bacon and Brad Pitt are in that film. I think Robert De Niro is as well. It's been a while.
Remi:Jake Gyllenhaal and Ashton Kutcher were both considered for the role of Marty Puccio, but Clark wanted to cast Nick Stahl, who had just been offered a role in a psychological thriller starring Andy Garcia called the Unsaid.
Remi:Stahl knew immediately that he wanted to do Bully, much to the chagrin of his agent and manager, who responded You're turning down Andy Garcia, his agent and manager, who responded you're turning down Andy Garcia. Garcia even flew Stahl out to Canada to try and talk him into doing the movie with him, but Stahl still ended up sticking with Bully over the latter. At some point, brad Renfro declared that he would rather play Marty instead of Bobby, claiming that it felt natural for him and Stahl to play opposite roles. This idea intrigued Larry Clark almost immediately, despite Renfro's co-star, nick Stahl, initially believing that he wasn't right for the role of Bobby, stating If you drew the polar opposite of who I was at that time, it probably would have been Bobby Kent. Who I was at that time, it probably would have been Bobby Kent. Lionsgate Films additionally voiced their concern that the actors would be miscast if they swapped roles, but Clark embraced the change as a way to subvert audience expectations of what a bully can look like.
Cousin Derek:Well, in real life Bobby Kent was twice Marty Puccio's size and when Nick got down here and he was about that size right there, not too much bigger than myself I was a little worried, you know. But I think it actually adds to some of the psychological appeal, you know, because I'm playing Marty very, you know, introverted and repressed, and you can just see this repression. I haven't seen dailies, am I wrong?
Bully (clip):I haven't seen dailies.
Cousin Derek:But I think you're going to see like this repression in Marty and Nick's, just all one way, just misogynistic, brutal bastard. You know you bastard, you know just misogynistic, brutal bastard. And it's like through the whole film you kind of slowly see a transition of Marty stepping up the bat when he does brutally murder the guy stepping up to bat when he does brutally murder the guy.
Remi:For the role of Lisa Connelly, rachel Miner, was cast after taking over a year-long break from acting to escape the intrusive media attention brought upon her due to her brief marriage to Macaulay Culkin when they were both just 18 years old.
Ashley:And now he is happily married to Brenda Strong and they are so cute on social media. Highly recommend you all follow them.
Remi:They are a very cute couple, but Rachel and Macaulay would ultimately separate not long before shooting began. So Clark arranged for Minor to fly out to Florida early in order to avoid the paparazzi, which was nice of him, but that will probably be one of the last kind things I say about Larry Clark in this podcast and celebrity of the season for us. Jared Leto was considered for the role of Derek Kaufman, but Clark insisted on casting Leo Fitzpatrick, whom he had previously worked with on Kids.
Ashley:I actually think Jared Leto would have been a good cast choice for Derek Hoffman. He's the oldest of the gang and he's the one person that didn't have any sort of prior relationship to anyone in this group and just kind of came along for the ride for the fun of it.
Remi:I think Leto could have done a pretty good job in this role as well. Leo Fitzpatrick, he is not a charismatic dude. He's a good actor, but I think that someone like Leto in this role would be someone who younger teens would think, hey, this is a cool guy, this is a hit man, this is someone we should listen to and follow his directions. But Leo Fitzpatrick you see him right away and you're like this guy does not know what he's talking about and I would not listen to him if I was a teen. Fitzpatrick did still have to audition for the part, however, which consisted of Fitzpatrick getting up in Clark's face in order to prove that he could be intimidating, and he was also the oldest member on set, or at least of the main cast. He was 22 when this was filmed. Every other actor was 20 years old or younger.
Remi:Coincidentally, fitzpatrick and Michael Pitt, who would later be cast as Donnie Semenik in the film, are both originally from West Orange, new Jersey, where they had attended the same school together.
Remi:Admittedly, west Orange, new Jersey, where they had attended the same school together. Admittedly, fitzpatrick, who was a grade or two above Pitt, never really liked him while they were growing up, because he said that Pitt was a pretty boy, but they did become friends while shooting the film. Kelly Garner was only 16 years old at the time and had just started acting when she was cast in the role of Heather Swallers. She is also the youngest cast member in this film. Garner had recently dyed her hair blue for a short film she had just completed, called the Architecture of Reassurance, which caught the eye of Larry Clark, who then became obsessed with Garner's look in the film. I did not include this part in my research, but there is a quote from Clark in which he is describing finding Kelly Garner at the age of 16, with blue hair and braces, and the way he describes her is, let's just say, repulsive for a grown man to be talking that way about a 16-year-old.
Ashley:Knowing that this guy's first two movies involved working with a lot of underage minors, I'm going to be shocked if in the pre-production you don't say he turned out to be some child molester or consumer of child explicit sexual material as of this podcast.
Remi:There are no allegations or anything of that nature against Clark, but there are other legal things that he has been involved in that we will get into in a bit.
Remi:Kelly Garner was originally offered the much smaller role of the Pizza Hut girl named Claudia, but Garner disagreed with her casting, stating no, I don't want that role. I'll only do this film if I get to play Heather, and it seems like a lot of the cast in this film got their say in recasting, for whatever reason. While scouting locations for a club scene one night, clark and the film's casting director happened upon a talent show where they caught Daniel Franzese performing a song on stage, futilely attempting to win the contest's cash prize so that he could pay his rent that month. When Franzese was introduced to Clark, he initially came on a bit too strong for Clark's liking, so when Franzese went into audition later, the casting director pulled him aside and told him point blank Larry doesn't like you, so when you go in, just pretend to be the character, which. I can't imagine a casting director saying that right before an audition.
Ashley:Yeah, talk about giving you nerves.
Remi:Well, this advice must have paid off somehow, since Franzese ended up landing the role of Derek Zvarko in his very first on-screen performance. Zooey Deschanel was originally set to play Allie Willis but ended up dropping out to film Big Trouble.
Cousin Derek:The role of Allie would eventually go to the daughter of the man who wrote a little song you may have heard of.
Remi:Enter Bijou Phillips, daughter of American musician John Phillips of the Mamas and the Papas. At the time, Bijou was appearing in newspapers nearly every day simply for going out to clubs, while being young, rich and famous, with Clark himself describing her as Paris Hilton before Paris Hilton.
Ashley:That is the exact person I thought of.
Remi:Even though she had never acted before. Clark said that the casting of Bijou is what finally got the film greenlit, due to the fame and notoriety she had garnered because of her father's name Ah, nepotism. For her character, bijou brought all of her own clothing and styled them herself. It has also been reported that upon Bijou's arrival to set, she became the de facto queen bee over all of the other actors and would often use her own social hierarchy within the group to manipulate and belittle others for her own amusement.
Ashley:Wow, so there was an actual bully on the set of Bully.
Remi:Bijou is the bully of this production absolutely, and we will get into that a lot more in the post-production section. Bully's musical budget was only around $5,000, but Larry Clark really wanted to use Forgot About Dre by Dr Dre and Eminem, which at the time would have cost roughly a quarter of a million dollars to use prominently in the film. I also don't understand why he really wanted this in the film. It has nothing to do with the characters or situations or anything. It was literally just a popular song that was released around the time that this movie was being shot. But, lucky for Clark, Eminem was a huge fan of kids. So when Clark and Eminem crossed paths at the MTV Movie Awards, Clark got Eminem to sign off on licensing the track to use in Bully. That was only half the battle, however, since Clark also needed to get Dr Dre to sign off as well, which ended up taking an additional six months. In the end, Dr Dre approved Clark's request for less than a fraction of the amount that the song would have usually cost.
Ashley:Persistence pays off.
Remi:Bully was originally given a 40-day shooting schedule, but upon Clark's arrival to set, Lionsgate informed him that, due to budget constraints, he now had just 23 days to finish filming. This compressed production schedule, along with unpredictable weather conditions and behind-the-scenes drama, all inevitably contributed to a chaotic experience on set for the entire cast and crew. Entire cast and crew. Since Brad Renfro had to be 18 to shoot the film. Clark went down to pick up Renfro personally the day after his 18th birthday from a trailer park in Knoxville, Tennessee, where the actor had been living with his grandmother. However, when Clark finally arrived, Renfro looked shockingly terrible and was completely loaded on drugs, with blood dripping down both of his arms from shooting up cocaine.
Ashley:Jesus and his response is Get in the car, we're going to shoot a movie. This kid clearly needs significant help.
Remi:Well, clark did stay with Renfro in Knoxville for about three days until finally, in his words, kidnapping Renfro by driving him directly to Florida to shoot the film, under the guise of taking the actor to a Starbucks to get some coffee one morning. So literally like, hey, man, you want to go get a cup of joe? Get in the car and he drives him to Florida.
Ashley:Probably the worst state in the United States for this kid to go to at this point.
Remi:I'll say Renfro was literally detoxing the entire drive and then the second that they got there he was ordered to get back in shape and go to the gym and start working out as soon as possible to be camera ready for the shoot. On the eve of production in the summer of 2000, Brad Renfro climbed out of the window of his Fort Lauderdale motel room to go party with the locals and ended up getting so hammered that he stole a yacht. While heavily intoxicated, Renfro managed to hotwire the stolen vessel but had forgotten to untie it. So when Renfro accelerated the engine, the yacht bashed up against the dock and was severely damaged in the process. Renfro was arrested after the owners called the police, but Larry Clark bailed him out of jail and took him straight to set to shoot his first scenes of the film.
Ashley:This is all so much more tragic knowing what happens to this kid later in life.
Remi:Yes, the second that Larry Clark showed up and saw Renfro in the condition he was in, he should have been calling the production and saying we need a new actor, while simultaneously seeing if anyone can help this kid. I mean, he's literally just turning 18 years old and he's showing up to the door and he's got blood dripping down his arms from injecting drugs and your first thought is let's sober him up for three days and drive to Florida. That's so fucked up. The cast and crew all stayed at the same hotel throughout the duration of the shoot, which allowed the other actors to do regular read-throughs together to prepare for the following day's scenes. One night, brad Renfro tried to escape his room to go out and party again, but his attempt was thwarted after being caught by his parole officer. When Renfro's PO escorted the young actor back to rehearsals, larry Clark was so infuriated by his insolence that he grabbed Renfro by the neck, lifted him off the ground and shook him violently while yelling you're not gonna fuck up my movie.
Ashley:So this PO is just waiting around to catch 18-year-olds sneaking out of hotel windows. But is okay with a grown man lifting this person off the ground by his neck.
Remi:I assume he just dropped him back off at rehearsals and left the room right after. I don't think he was like standing guard behind him, but maybe he should have been. Steve Gaynor, the film's cinematographer, later described the experience of working on Bully as the most frantic, chaotic production of his entire career, stating we were all young kids getting high and showing up to work to varying degrees of sobriety. And with that should we get into the actual film that all of this chaos produced, larry Clark's Bully.
Ashley:Let's do it. I'm as ready as I'm ever going to be.
Remi:Our story begins in Hollywood, Florida, with Marty Puccio, played by Brad Renfro, having phone sex in his bedroom while his mother calls him to dinner from the other room.
Ashley:Were you doing that as a troubled teen.
Remi:I was never into phone sex. As a troubled teen, just doing it on the family line in my home Seems pretty daring. I was not that risky. We then cut to sometime later, where we see Lisa Connelly, played by Rachel Miner, and Allie Willis, played by Bijou Phillips, pulling into a grocery store parking lot in Allie's convertible. Before finishing their cigarettes and making their way inside, the girls head over to the deli counter where they find Marty and Bobby Kent, played by Nick Stahl, hard at work making sandwiches. After provocatively ordering their lunch, marty introduces himself to the girls and shyly asks if they'd like to go surfing sometime. Allie and Lisa say they'll think about it, then take their leave as Bobby teases Marty about his flirting skills while making vulgar comments about the two girls.
Remi:Later at the beach, marty and Bobby catch some waves as Allie and Lisa watch Awestruck from the shore, with Lisa in particular seeming quite taken by Marty. Afterwards they all smoke a little weed while cruising down to the liquor store to buy some booze, where Marty politely asks if Bobby wouldn't mind chipping in a few dollars for alcohol, since Marty is currently low on funds. This request is met with a violent outburst by Bobby, who ferociously grabs Marty by the ear while verbally berating him until he finally submits and agrees to pay for everything personally. The teens then drive around town drinking and getting high as the sun goes down, until they eventually settle into an empty parking lot where Bobby hooks up with Allie while Lisa and Marty have sex in the back seat.
Remi:A few nights later, marty and Bobby are hanging out at a gay club on Teen Amateur Night, featuring a stage full of shirtless young boys gyrating suggestively to heavy dance music. While watching the show, an older man in the crowd offers to give Bobby $100 if he can convince Marty to get on stage and dance with the other boys. Though Marty is adamantly against this, bobby still forces him into involuntarily performing in front of the leering audience, then keeps the entire $100 to himself, along with any tips from the audience that Marty received that night. Dollars to himself, along with any tips from the audience that Marty received that night. While driving home from the club the following morning, bobby mocks Marty relentlessly by calling him a homosexual for going along with what Bobby made him do the other night. Marty is momentarily distracted by Bobby's ridicule, causing him to nearly hit a curb while driving Bobby's car, resulting in Bobby repeatedly punching Marty in the face while he is still driving.
Cousin Derek:Motherfucker, fuck this goddamn shit, marty.
Bully (clip):Hey, get in the car.
Cousin Derek:Fuck you, man, I'm sorry man, let's just go.
Cousin Derek:Let's go. I'm sorry.
Ali Willis (Dr. Drew Interview):Put your fucking hands off me, Bobby. I'm really sorry.
Cousin Derek:You're my best friend.
Ashley:Okay, and from what I can tell from the book, that is typically how these outbursts went. Bobby would lose his temper and beat Marty and immediately apologize and assure Marty that he's his best friend he's like a brother and that was enough to make Marty forgive him and continue on with their relationship.
Remi:And I do want to just add that Brad Renfro is doing something with his posture in this movie, where he has his head forward, his shoulders forward. It's like he has all of his emotions curled up in a ball in front of him that he's trying to keep stuffed down, and it's just very good body posturing he did for this role. Days later, Marty and Lisa are having sex again at Marty's place when Bobby suddenly emerges from the bathroom naked, whips Lisa with a belt and socks Marty in the face, leaving him with a black eye. Lisa with a belt and socks Marty in the face, leaving him with a black eye. Over breakfast the next morning, Marty begs his parents to relocate the family to another town, but Marty's father balks at his son's pleas After leaving the table in frustration.
Remi:Lisa arrives and the two retreat back to Marty's room to smoke a little weed and chill out for a bit. While sharing a joint, naked lying in bed together, Marty reveals the traumatic story of the first time he ever got high. Bobby had tricked him into smoking something that was laced with another drug, possibly methamphetamines or PCP, which caused Marty to have a panic attack and run all the way home to cower in fear under his bedsheets. Once Bobby found Marty, he continued to terrify him until Marty ultimately ended up urinating in his pants out of pure fear.
Ashley:I left this out of my part, but this is written about in the book.
Remi:This is just insanely tragic how Marty was treated.
Ashley:By his best friend.
Remi:Supposed best friend. Yes, lisa discovers that she is pregnant in the weeks that follow, and though she is hopeful that the baby belongs to Marty, there is still a hint of doubt, since she had also had sex with Bobby around the same time, though this was never shown on screen.
Ashley:And how it's described in the book is it was a forced situation.
Remi:Lisa then hitches a ride from her cousin Derek played by Daniel friend Zazie over to Marty's place to break the news. Once there, lisa and Marty head into the other room to talk in private, while Bobby takes Derek into the bedroom to show off some disturbing homemade pornography, prominently featuring Marty, which Bobby plans on selling to old perverts. Derek, of course, finds this all really creepy and weird, so excuses himself from the situation as quickly as possible, which is what you should do if anyone ever shows you something like this in their bedroom. Meanwhile, marty is not taking the news of Lisa's pregnancy very well at all and begins to get physical with her while screaming that she has to get an abortion. Luckily, derek hears the commotion and is able to separate them before their altercation escalates any further.
Ashley:Derek is like the shining light in this whole movie and story and it's a dim light, but it's something.
Remi:Derek is the one character that I do legitimately feel sorry for in all of this, and it is the one actor in the end that I do legitimately feel sorry for in all of this, and it is the one actor in the end that I do feel sorry for in all of this as well. But we will get to that. Back at home, lisa's mother is extremely upset by the numerous bruises covering her daughter's body from Marty's assault, but Lisa still insists that she is in love with Marty and refuses to allow her mother to take any action that would potentially harm him. That night Lisa calls Allie, who is in the midst of dripping hot wax candle sex with Donnie Semenik, played by Michael Pitt.
Ashley:This was probably an unnecessary scene for Larry Clark to include.
Remi:This was probably an unnecessary scene for Larry Clark to include. There are quite a few graphic sexual scenes in this film that Larry Clark didn't need to include but chose to. Anyway, lisa asks if Allie is interested in hooking up with Bobby again, since he's into some really quote-unquote freaky shit immediately piques Ali's interests. Elsewhere we are shown a glimpse into Bobby Kent's home life during a typical family dinner with his parents. I said I haven't seen.
Ali Willis (Dr. Drew Interview):Marty lately.
Cousin Derek:That's good. He's probably too busy with his surfing, a game the children play at the beach. It's a way of life, really.
Dr. Drew:Your friend Marty, tell you that what kind of life is splashing around in the waves and saying Whee, so may we excuse no.
Cousin Derek:Son you we excuse no, son, you are smart, you have ambition, you have presence. Your friend Marty is leading a life of complete aimlessness. You know, I know what happened to that kid. He used to be a good kid. He's got no ambition, no fire and he's got nothing. I don't want you spending so much time with him. I will move this family far away from here before I see you waste your life away. Is that understood? Yes, sir, I booked a piano lesson for you.
Ali Willis (Dr. Drew Interview):Thursday.
Ashley:In the real story, this conversation about Marty's quote-unquote bad influence happens much sooner. He was not really into Marty because the dad was really into school and ambition and that is not something he thought Marty embodied.
Remi:And I also want to point out that Marty begged his parents to move because of what Bobby was doing to him, and they downright refused, saying we're not gonna uproot our family just because you're having some issues. And in this scene we hear that Bobby's parents are more than willing to uproot their entire family to get away from Marty. So a little bit of irony there. A few days later, over at Bobby's place, allie and Bobby are getting reacquainted while Marty and Lisa watch rap videos in the adjoining room. Through their conversation, allie learns that Bobby is a good student with a solid B average, and he has already begun applying to colleges with plans of going into the window tinting business with his father after graduating. Allie and Bobby then retreat to Bobby's bedroom to fool around a bit, but the mood quickly changes when Bobby puts on a tape of gay pornography and then brutally rapes her Afterwards. Allie informs an unsympathetic Lisa about what had just occurred, then storms out of the house in distress just as Bobby's father arrives home from work.
Remi:Bobby's father discovers his son compulsively washing his hands in the bathroom and says that he doesn't want Bobby hanging out with Marty anymore because he's a bad influence. I'm just going to point out that his father walked past Marty and Lisa in the living room watching rap videos, just hanging out being teenagers, and I'm sure that's something he saw and was just like ah, these degenerates. Bobby reluctantly agrees to his father's demands, but under the condition that he can still hire Marty to work for them when he and his father open a business together. Later on, days later, marty has an emotional breakdown in front of Lisa about how cruelly Bobby has always treated him and offhandedly opines that killing Bobby may be his only means of escape. Saddened by her lover's torment, lisa then proposes that they actually follow through with murdering Bobby so that they can both be rid of him once and for all. Though Marty is initially apprehensive about Lisa's idea, he is soon convinced that killing Bobby is their only solution.
Ashley:They basically like hype each other up here. They're both talking about like what, if he was gone, life would be so much better in this way and that way and this way and it would be so easy to get away with it, and yada, yada, yada.
Remi:The film definitely makes it up like Lisa is hyping it up more than Marty is. Marty is on board with this, but Lisa is definitely the one who's like this is going to solve all of our problems. We just need to get rid of Bobby and then our life will be perfect.
Ashley:That's how it's depicted in the book too, but he comes on board pretty quickly.
Remi:Oh, he comes on board in a matter of a minute and a half in the movie, maybe less. Oh, he comes on board in a matter of a minute and a half in the movie, maybe less. Lisa then calls Allie, who immediately agrees to go along with Lisa's plan. Allie then elicits additional assistance from her casual sex partner, Donnie, on the eve of his 18th birthday, Before picking up her friend Heather Swallers, played by Kelly Garner, who has just fled rehab for methamphetamine addiction.
Ashley:It was crack cocaine, but close enough.
Remi:That night the entire group has a rendezvous at Pizza Hut to discuss the details of Lisa's plan.
Bully (clip):He beats me. He's raped me before. The worst part is the way he picks on Marty. He treats him like a dog or a slave or something. Pissed me off so bad. I can't stand it.
Bully (clip):So what are you going to do, Lisa?
Bully (clip):I'm going to kill him.
Bully (clip):That's some heavy shit.
Bully (clip):Yeah, it is. So how are you going to?
Bully (clip):do it.
Bully (clip):Why are you guys so serious?
Remi:I'm going to fix Bobby Kent's ass, cool serious, I'm gonna fix Bobby Kent's ass Cool Back at Lisa's. She reveals that she has already stolen her mother's handgun to carry out the attack, and the group quickly devises a plan to use Allie as bait to lure Bobby out to an isolated spot in the Florida Everglades under the pretense of another sexual encounter. Marty then calls Bobby that very night, setting the plan in motion, but stays behind while the others proceed with the plan without him. After picking up Bobby, the group drive to a secluded area where Lisa intends on pulling the trigger personally, but is unable to do so when the moment arises. After this failed attempt, allie calls up a wannabe hitman she knows the following day, named Derek Kaufman, played by Leo Fitzpatrick, who is in the midst of buying stolen stereo equipment from a gaggle of prepubescent teens in his parents' garage.
Remi:Next, lisa phones her cousin Derek, asking for his help as well, and he is soon picked up by Heather and Donnie, who all drop acid together before heading over to the comic shop to play a bit of Mortal Kombat.
Remi:Afterwards they are all picked up by Allie and Lisa, who brings them to an introductory meeting with the supposed hitman. And just for clarity's sake, since our story now has two characters named Derek. I will be referring to this so-called hitman by his last name of Kaufman. And side note here, kaufman's father in this next scene is actually portrayed by the film's director, larry Clark, in a brief cameo. Anyway, kaufman agrees to help plan Bobby's murder and maybe even supervise, once the group can procure some alternative weapons that can't be so easily linked back to Lisa and her mother Over a joint. Later that night, heather recalls the story of how her grandfather murdered her grandmother to Allie and Donnie. Heather continues by revealing that her grandfather then spent two whole days locked in the room alone with her grandmother's corpse, drinking himself into oblivion, while Heather's 15-year-old mother remained in the house the entire time.
Ashley:God, that would cause some long-term psychological damage for Heather's mom.
Remi:And I just want to point out that this story was brought up because the group was talking about how none of them had ever met anyone who killed someone before, like no one knew anybody who had murdered someone. And Heather raises her hand like I know somebody and shared this horribly traumatic story. Later in life, when Heather was just a little girl, her mother would drag her out of bed in the middle of the night in a drunken stupor to read aloud newspaper clippings she had saved regarding the incident. Days later, the entire gang reconvenes at Marty's place to go over the plan with Kaufman after Marty arranges another outing with Bobby later that evening.
Bully (clip):Yo, what about this shit? Yo, you think this shit is good enough for him. Like, right here, right here, what the fuck for you gonna go play baseball? No, well then, what the fuck? You got a bat for man. What are you gonna do with that? We're the guy, what guy? Bobby Kent, what about Bobby Kent, the fucking guy we're gonna kill man. It's his bat, like good enough to fucking ram his fucking head in. You know, I don't know man. Alright, how about this knife? This knife is good, right't trying to like sharpen it and shit, but I don't know.
Bully (clip):I don't know man, Alright fuck. Alright, okay, what I wanna know is like, are we just gonna fight this guy, or like are we gonna kill him?
Bully (clip):Look, I want this motherfucker dead tonight and I don't want any bullshit. Yeah, I mean you know. Look, this is the son of a bitch that raped Allie.
Bully (clip):You know he fucking raped her yeah and I mean just think about it.
Bully (clip):You won't even let Marty have a life. I mean Bobby beats the shit out of him. He does anything Bobby doesn't like You're shooken mind. I mean you won't even let him see his own family.
Ashley:That sucks.
Bully (clip):This guy deserves to die. He does deserve to die, I agree. So we're not just gonna like fight him and scare him, we're gonna kill him. We're gonna kill him.
Cousin Derek:This motherfucker dead. You understand scam? I'm gonna kill him. Gonna kill him, this motherfucking dead man, this motherfucking dead.
Bully (clip):Let's fucking kill him. Let's fucking kill this fucking dead. Let's fucking kill this fucking dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead. Shit, sorry, man, go ahead, I'm fucking losing. Go ahead.
Remi:And I just feel like I need to point out that they're doing this conversation in Marty's driveway, which is like in the middle of a suburban cul-de-sac, like. This is not in the middle of nowhere in a secluded area. These guys are yelling this right in front of Marty's home, armed with a baseball bat, along with two large knives. The group then heads over to Bobby's place to pick him up. After a long, uncomfortable car ride, the group finally arrives at the Florida Everglades, where Bobby and Allie exit their vehicle, then walk several yards away from the rest of the group to start fooling around While the others ready themselves. Heather is instructed to ensure that Bobby doesn't suspect anything first, then signal the others to attack by shouting Are there any alligators in there? When the time is right, heather does as she's told, trailed by Donnie who will attack first, while Marty waits nearby ready to back him up. Once Heather gives the signal, donnie lunges at Bobby from behind, stabbing him in the back, while Heather retreats to the car and huddles in a fetal position, followed closely behind by Allie.
Ashley:And throughout this entire ordeal, Heather remains huddled in the back of the car, rocking back and forth with her hands covered over her ears.
Remi:With Bobby still reeling from his injury, Marty moves in from the shadows and he and Donnie take turns repeatedly stabbing Bobby from different angles as he begs for mercy. Bobby tries to flee, but he can only stagger to Allie's vehicle and collapse before Marty slits his throat and Kaufman bashes his head in with a baseball bat. Kaufman then orders Derek out of the car and forces him to help throw Bobby's barely breathing body into the canal for the gators to finish him off.
Ashley:I know Bobby Kent was not a good person. He clearly had some intense anger issues and tormented several people in this group, but no one deserves what happened to him. This is brutal and horrific.
Remi:I will be upfront and say that I do believe that Bobby Kent deserved to have legal ramifications for his actions, but according to this film, bobby lived through basically all of this and died a very, very slow death, and it's just something that I couldn't imagine and I wouldn't wish upon anyone.
Ashley:While begging his best friend to help and profusely apologizing for whatever it was he did wrong, because at this point, he had no clue why this was happening to him. He just viewed it as a typical night out with my friends, and now I am being brutally, brutally murdered.
Remi:And I don't want to seem like I'm diminishing any of the horrible things that Bobby Kent perpetrated on this group, but just putting myself in the situation of someone going out to hang out with their friends one night your best friend and then this coming out of nowhere, I can't imagine the amount of emotions and physical pain that was going through him at this time. That went on for far too long. Afterwards, the group reconvenes at North Beach to get their alibi straight, until Marty realizes that he dropped his knife sheath back at the crime scene. Afterwards, the group reconvenes at North Beach to get their alibis straight, until Marty realizes that he dropped his knife sheath back at the crime scene. After retrieving the sheath with Kaufman and checking on the body, they return to North Beach only to discover that the others have already begun to unravel.
Bully (clip):Where are the knives?
Bully (clip):I threw them in the ocean. You threw them in the ocean, you threw them where in the ocean unravel.
Bully (clip):So we've been talking about getting caught and who did what? Well, that's a great talk to have. I think we need to have that talk. By the way, what have you decided, you doper? What do you think? Did you kill that motherfucker? No, I mean, look, I stabbed the dude. I admit that. Alright, everyone saw me fucking do that, but I didn't. I didn't actually kill him. I mean, he was still alive after I finished sticking him. I mean, you saw the fucker run and you, you know I didn't kill him. Oh, who helped me drown this son of a bitch? Then he was dead already. Oh, he was dead. I mean, he was so far fucking gone, man, I just picked him up to help you move him. I didn't, I didn't fucking kill anybody.
Ashley:I think this is the first time that these teenagers realize that they are way over their heads, but they are still too dumb enough to realize that they are 100% all going to get caught and they are 100% all culpable.
Remi:I mean, I was an idiot as a teenager. I would not have been able to plan out a crime or anything like this. And in the scene we're just watching again, it shows in a wide shot just how loud they're all talking at the beach, like someone could be walking their dog and overhear them very easily and me and my friends used to joke that this film should have just been called how not to perpetrate a Crime, because these kids did not know what they were doing.
Remi:and I think in this scene the gravity of the situation is finally setting in, but it is too late. Later that night, marty leaves a message on Bobby's home answering machine. In a half-baked attempt to avoid arousing any suspicion and you and me were talking about this a minute ago, ashley, just kind of wondering what the thought process was there he calls up basically saying hey, bobby, it's me. You told me to call you when I got home. This is what I'm doing. And his dad answers immediately and he just hangs up.
Ashley:I left this out of my portion when I talk about it, but he did do this and his thought process was after long nights of them hanging out together, they usually called each other to say that they both got home okay. But Marty elects to leave a message and identifies himself by his first and last name, which Bobby's dad immediately thinks is weird, because he's like why is Marty introducing himself by his full legal name and then just hangs up when he picks up?
Remi:It's teenage logic. You're thinking you're covering your tracks when you're just making it look so much worse for you.
Ashley:It's also four in the morning and the first thing the dad does when he gets this call is gets up and checks in his son's room, sees he's missing and then just is like whatever, they're probably just up to shenanigans and goes back to bed but this call would raise so many questions like, hey, I just left you, but I'm leaving a message.
Remi:Now it's several hours later. I don't normally do this. I'm leaving my first and last name and Bobby isn't there. It's immediately going to raise a ton of red flags.
Ashley:It's a stupid decision on top of so many stupid decisions this whole group had made this entire night.
Remi:Well, in the days ahead, the weight of the group's actions begins to weigh heavily on several members, leading to Derek confiding in a friend about his minimal involvement in what had transpired, while elsewhere, lisa casually reveals the entire crime to her friend, courtney, like a complete psychopath.
Ashley:Which is the Pizza Hut girl.
Bully (clip):You murdered Bobby Kent. I didn't say I murdered anybody, I mean they killed him. I wouldn't even say they murdered him. I mean he was fighting back. He was yeah, I mean he was trying to get away and begging Marty to you know, like saying I'm sorry, please, I'll do anything, just don't kill me Right, when he said that Marty just walked up to him and whacked him in the heart with his diving knife, the whole thing was just totally, totally extreme.
Ali Willis (Dr. Drew Interview):Oh wait, you want somebody to take you out there to move a body? I don't Anybody.
Bully (clip):That's crazy enough to do? That is just Fine, fine, we don't Anybody that's crazy enough to do. That is just Fine, fine. We won't go move it, we'll just go out there and we'll see if the tire tracks are gone.
Ashley:No way, lisa, no way.
Remi:And I just want to say bravo to Claudia in this situation.
Ashley:I love her response of just Lisa. Do you not realize what you just did? This is very, very, very, very bad.
Remi:To make matters worse, Allie has also begun posing hypothetical questions about reporting a murder to the police anonymously to her mother, and we also get a brief glimpse of Allie tending to her baby, whom she has been neglecting for the entire film but has mentioned once or twice.
Ashley:I don't even mention that she had a baby, but yeah, she did and she basically gave birth and just gave it to her parents to raise and continued on with life as usual. On with life as usual.
Remi:Well, the police do in fact receive an anonymous tip soon after, leading to the arrests of the entire gang in the ensuing days ahead. Surprisingly, the anonymous tipster is later revealed to have been Heather and not Allie, as we had originally assumed. And a quick side note here the officer who apprehends Marty in the scene where he is arrested is Frank Ariza, the same police detective who arrested the real Marty Puccio back in 1993.
Ashley:I also stumbled across something that the judge in the film is the actual judge who presided over most of these trials. Did you come across that?
Remi:They're in court very briefly, and if it is the same judge, he does not have any lines or anything. Just before the closing credits, we learn the fates of everyone who had been involved with Bobby's murder. Heather Swallers received a seven-year sentence for her involvement, while Derek Ziverko was sentenced to 11 years and Allie Willis received 40. Donnie Semenik, Derek Kaufman and Lisa Connolly were each sentenced to life in prison, while Marty Puccio was sentenced to death by electric chair, and that was Larry Clark's Bully. So, Ashley, do you have any initial thoughts after hearing the rundown of the film?
Ashley:Without saying anything that'll give away the verdict. The primary question that I have in my mind is based on the intense experience I had reading about this crime in written form. It is a very graphic book that details the murder in a very, very, very long chapter with very graphic details, and I was curious, as I was reading it, how that was going to be depicted on screen and if it was as hard of a watch as it was to read it.
Remi:It is an extremely hard watch. It's a lot of scared teens who kind of didn't know what they were doing and the scene is depicted like that. The emotional weight of what was occurring was portrayed very well.
Ashley:One thing this case made me think about is the power of peer pressure and groupthink. If there was one or two people except for I would argue Heather or Cousin Derek, I think if they weren't involved, this would have still happened. But any other participant, if you take out one of them, I do not think this crime would have happened that day. They fed off each other. Let's get into the post-production, because you have repeatedly teased me for several weeks that it is fucking bug nuts.
Remi:This is the craziest post-production for any film that I have done on this podcast, and I would be shocked if this title is ever taken from Bully. Bully was originally slated for a wide theatrical release, but these plans were derailed when the film received the dreaded NC-17 rating from the MPAA.
Ashley:That's a kiss of death right there.
Remi:It truly is. Larry Clark had hoped for an R rating, since many major theater chains refused to show NC-17 films, but Clark still chose to press forward and released the unrated version of the film on July 13, 2001, in a total of six theaters.
Ashley:So he didn't try to cut things out to drop the rating, like directors usually do. Nope, is this movie still rated an NC-17?
Remi:I believe it is unrated, so he chose to have it proceed unrated, as opposed to having the NC-17 rating, which is basically like an NC-17 rating.
Ashley:And you said Lionsgate distributed this. I'm surprised they didn't demand that some things be taken out.
Remi:I guess it was up to Larry Clark's discretion. So maybe Larry Clark had enough control to be like nope, we're just going to release it as is. But that is like the kiss of death for your movie.
Ashley:I'm very surprised it was not re-edited.
Remi:I do need to point out that his first film, kids, was also rated NC-17, but it did receive enough buzz and whatnot to be a moderate success, at least critically. This one not so much. Screenwriter David McKenna, who we will be discussing in our American History X episode, be discussing in our American History X episode, was apparently unhappy with the finished version of the film, so he chose to have his name removed and instead is credited under the pseudonym of Zachary Long. So he hated this movie so much he said take my name off of it. Bully received a 54% approval rating on Rotten Tomatoes, with a critical consensus that reads. With its lingering shots of naked teenage bodies, bully feels more sordidly exploitive than realistic. Much of the film's criticism stemmed from the numerous prolonged scenes of gratuitous nudity and graphic sex depicted on screen by primarily adolescent cast members, and I agree with all of those criticisms. All of the gratuitous sex and everything could be removed from this film and it would not have affected anything in my opinion.
Ashley:Probably would have dropped that rating down too.
Remi:Yes, it could have actually gotten a wide release if you had chosen to remove all of this unnecessary, underaged sex bullshit. Mr Clark Bully was nominated for the Golden Lion at the 58th Annual Venice International Film Festival, but lost out to Mira Nahr's Monsoon Wedding. I've seen that. It's a lovely movie, very different than Bully.
Ashley:Never seen or heard of it.
Remi:It's not a true crime. We won't be discussing it on this podcast, unfortunately, but I do recommend Monsoon Wedding Attempting to up the ante even further. Clark's follow-up film, ken Park, was even more sexually explicit and violent than Bully or Kids, and includes a fully uncut scene of a high schooler masturbating to completion from autoerotic asphyxiation. As a result, ken Park was banned in Australia for its graphic sexual content. In 2002, clark was detained by London police officers and spent several hours in a holding cell after punching and attempting to strangle Ken Park's UK distributor, hamish McAlpin, leading to the film being abruptly withdrawn from the London Film Festival.
Ashley:This guy has a lot of unresolved issues.
Remi:McAlpin claimed that he didn't provoke Clark and that the altercation arose from a disagreement regarding Israel and the Middle East.
Ashley:Still very salient to this day.
Remi:As of this podcast. Ken Park is Clark's last film to feature any professional actors, and I have seen Ken Park. I do not recommend Ken Park to anyone on any level, and the scene that I discussed earlier is possibly the worst scene I've ever seen in any film ever possibly the worst scene I've ever seen in any film ever. So good job, Larry Clark. Brad Renfro experienced difficulties in his private life, including numerous arrests for public intoxication, driving without a valid driver's license and driving under the influence. Unfortunately, Renfro's battle with heroin and methadone addiction inevitably led to his death at the age of 25 from acute heroin and morphine intoxication. Rachel Miner dated Renfro during and after the production of Bully. She was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis in 2010 and has since become an advocate for representation of disabled characters. In September of 2017, Miner was named the executive director of the non-profit organization Random Acts, which aims to change the world one random act of kindness at a time.
Ashley:Aw, I like that.
Remi:Nick Stahl went on to star in two seasons of the HBO series Carnival, starting in 2003, and had a minor role as that Yellow Bastard in the 2005 film, sin City. In the years that followed, stahl struggled with addiction and alcoholism, which led to him spending time in rehabilitation facilities in 2007 and 2009. In May of 2012, stahl was reported missing by his wife after checking himself into yet another rehab without informing anyone. That same year, on December 27th, stahl was arrested in an adult video store in Hollywood, california. Stahl was arrested in an adult video store in Hollywood, california, on suspicion of committing a lewd act, but no charges were filed due to insufficient evidence. Stahl was arrested in Hollywood again the following year for allegedly possessing methamphetamines. In 2017, stahl stated in an interview at the Dallas Comic Show that he had moved to Texas and was taking a hiatus from acting to concentrate on his family and sobriety. Stahl returned to acting with the 2019 film, the Murder of Nicole Brown Simpson, which we will not be covering on our podcast, which currently holds an impressive 0% rating on Rotten Tomatoes. As of 2021, stahl had reportedly stayed sober over the past four years, so that is a bit of good news.
Remi:In 2010, michael Pitt was cast as Jimmy Darmody in the HBO series Boardwalk Empire, but his character was killed off in the second season, allegedly due to Pitt's behavior on set. Pitt's departure from the show just so happened to come only a month after Pitt was fired by his own agent because he was quote-unquote really difficult on set and otherwise. Pitt's career never truly recovered after this, and in July of 2022, he was arrested and charged with assault and petty larceny for allegedly taking another man's phone after repeatedly punching him in the head. That September, pitt was strapped to a stretcher and hospitalized following a public outburst in which Pitt reportedly started throwing random items from a New York City rooftop at unsuspecting pedestrians walking below. Pitt was deemed emotionally disturbed after the incident, but no charges were ever filed.
Ashley:All these cases are just illustrating so well how Hollywood will just eat up young actors and spit them out.
Remi:Seriously, this is all just like the worst things that could happen to child actors. But on a more positive note, Daniel Franzese attained widespread notoriety after being cast as Damian Lee in the 2004 film Mean Girls, which you and I both love.
Ashley:Does anyone not love Mean Girls?
Remi:That is what I remember Daniel from. More than Bully, he was this character. He was great in this film. Daniel later became an official ambassador for the Elizabeth Taylor AIDS Foundation and was invited by GLAAD to host their 2015 gala in San Francisco.
Ashley:And we talked about this. She founded this shortly after she became the mother-in-law to a Getty.
Remi:Franzese is also an ambassador for Lambda Legal, which is an American civil rights organization impacting litigation, social education and public policy work, focusing on lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender communities, as well as people living with HIV and AIDS. Now let's talk about Bijou Phillips. In 2004, Bijou met that 70s Show actor, danny Masterson, at a celebrity poker tournament in Las Vegas, and the two quickly bonded over their shared belief in Scientology. Bijou and Masterson dated for seven years following this initial encounter and were later married in October of 2011. The couple starred in several films together throughout the years, including Made for Each Other, the Bridge to Nowhere, wake and a 2011 episode of Fox's Raising Hope.
Remi:How delightful. In September of 2009, eight years after John Phillips' death, his eldest daughter, mackenzie, released her memoir titled High on Arrival, alleging that her father had engaged in a decade-long incestuous relationship with her. Mackenzie stated that this relationship began when she was 18 years old, when her father raped her in a motel room while she was passed out after a drug binge. Mackenzie went on to marry a man named Jeff Sessler when she was 19 years old, but continued to use drugs and have consensual sex with her father for years to come.
Ashley:And we say consensual here with a big capital air quote.
Remi:The relationship only ended when Mackenzie became pregnant and feared that the baby may belong to her father, leading to Phillips paying for her abortion. Mackenzie's half-sister, Bijou, has stated that Mackenzie informed her of the sexual abuse when she was 13 years old, which had a devastating effect on Bijou's teenage years, which had a devastating effect on Bijou's teenage years. However, in 2009, after the release of Mackenzie's memoir, Bijou defended her father against the allegations, stating I'm 29 now. I've talked to everyone who was around during that time. I've asked the hard questions. I do not believe my sister. Our father was many things. This is not one of them.
Ashley:It sounds to me, especially because she said she was informed of this abuse when she was 13 years old, that this statement denying the abuse is either something she gave willingly to try to circumvent any sort of negative public attention, or it's something the Church of Scientology helped craft.
Remi:And from my research. Mackenzie's story is backed up by several people, not from firsthand accounts but witnesses who saw inappropriate behavior to some degree.
Ashley:And Mackenzie Phillips. I mean she's not like a well-known actress, but if you see her face, like stop and Google her right now. She looks familiar. You've seen her in things. I'm actually re-watching ER right now and she was in an episode we watched yesterday.
Remi:Five years later, on February 14th 2014, bijou gave birth to Fianna, her and Danny Masterson's only child together. In November of 2017, elliot Page, who was going by Ellen Page at the time, released a damning statement accusing director Brett Ratner of homophobic harassment while they were filming X-Men the Last Stand back in 2006. Page's bravery inspired Daniel Franzese to write his own post on Facebook, revealing the harrowing harassment he faced from Bijou Phillips while on the set of Bully. Franzese claimed she body-shamed me and ridiculed me about my sexuality and physically assaulted me. I was scared and closeted and feared for my job.
Remi:It started with a lot of eye rolling whenever we spoke, but escalated when we did a cast shoot for the poster. As we were shooting, she kept loudly saying are you gay? And laughing. She continued to say are you gay? Like 10 times over and over again, making sure to be loud enough for everyone to hear. I reluctantly told her I was bi, which, at the time, was how I was choosing to identify. She cackled and said ha, he's bi. And then, when I showed up to work the next day in front of the crew, she was screaming oh look, the bi guys here. Franzese went on to say that some of his co-stars, including Michael Pitt and Brad Renfro, did defend him by telling her to shut up, but Bijou continued to verbally berate Franzese in spite of all of this.
Ashley:This is so horrific and, you know, no one on set stood up to her because she was like the it girl of the movie.
Remi:Exactly. It would have been like telling Paris Hilton to shut up or Kim Kardashian, that sort of thing. Franzese additionally recounted filming a scene that required him to take off his shirt, prompting Bijou to break character mid-scene and point to Franzese while yelling Ew Gross. Franzese continued by admitting that Bijou was eventually convinced into apologizing after a long talk with her co-star, nick Stahl, whom she was dating at the time. Responding to Franzese's accusations, bijou released an apology through TMZ which stated I don't remember that time. Well, those years are a blur. Bijou released an apology through TMZ which stated I thought I was to him made me so sad. I am mortified by this behavior and have contacted Daniel and apologized to him privately. I am not and have never been homophobic. I have nothing but love for the LGBTQ community and Daniel.
Ashley:I will say there have been way worse public statements and apologies than this.
Remi:Well, that same month, actress Heather Matarazzo claimed that Bijou made repeated attempts to get her to consume drugs while they were filming Hostile Part 2, despite Matarazzo being sober after having a history of addiction. Matarazzo also alleged that Bijou promised that she was going to make sure that she relapsed while making the film, but when her attempts were unsuccessful, Bijou responded by holding Matarazzo against a wall and choking her for around 15 seconds.
Ashley:Jesus Christ, what is with this girl?
Remi:In March of 2017, three women filed sexual. Bixler Zavala tweeted that Masterson had sexually assaulted his wife and that the song Incurably Innocent from the 2017 album Interalia is about the incident. Like Masterson and his wife, his accusers had all been members of the Church of Scientology during the time of their assaults, which strictly forbids members from reporting fellow Scientologists to the police for any reason.
Ashley:Especially when they're celebrities.
Remi:On June 17th 2020, masterson was officially charged with three counts of rape after a three-year investigation, which began in 2017. On May 31st 2023, masterson was convicted of raping two women in 2003, with the charges from a third woman resulting in a hung jury. Masterson was sentenced to 30 years to life on September 7th 2023, with his wife, bijou Phillips, filing for divorce less than two weeks later. And that was the full story of Larry Clark's bully.
Ashley:Woof, let's all take a big deep breath. Somehow, this aftermath was way more intense than anything you talked about in the movie I know right, this has literally never happened with any film we've done before.
Remi:All of the stuff with this cast and crew before and after and during this film is fucking insanity. But the story itself I am curious about the accuracy there and I think, ashley, that might be where you come in to help me with that area.
Ashley:All right, let's get into it. Bobby Kent was in the third grade when his Iranian immigrant parents, fred and Farah, moved him and his older sister, layla, to Hollywood, florida, in search of a better life. Fred was a stockbroker, valued hard work and education and encouraged his children to play instruments and sports. Bobby quickly developed a friendship with Marty Puccio, another third grader in the neighborhood.
Ashley:Marty was the middle child born to Martin Sr, a salesman for a production company in Miami, and Veronica, a part-time receptionist at a doctor's office. When not at work, veronica made sure her sons were actively involved in sports, karate and church. Bobby came across as a respectful, well-behaved boy, but Marty began to see a different side of him as their friendship progressed. In middle school he started hating Marty and calling him a queer whenever he wore his favorite cape while they played. As he aged, his internal anger escalated to explosive rages, often directed at Marty. Each time he assaulted his friend, he quickly apologized and assured him they were as close as brothers. The time between these attacks diminished once Marty's natural talent for surfing emerged.
Remi:According to the film, he almost could have gone pro.
Ashley:He was very, very good, which actually caused Bobby to resent him because he wasn't as skilled on the waves. But he still tagged along in hopes of impressing the older teens that Marty was establishing friendships with Whenever they noticed Bobby's anger towards Marty. For example, there was one time when Bobby was like go get me a snack. And Marty asked for money and Bobby responded by just punching him in the face until Marty just used his own cash to go get whatever food Bobby wanted. The older server kids asked Marty, why are you putting up with this? And each time Marty just shrugged it off and said well, they've been friends since they were little kids.
Ashley:Marty grew moodier. Into adolescence. He started to beg his parents to move, but wouldn't ever tell them why, likely because he was embarrassed that he was being bullied by his best friend. By the start of the eighth grade, both boys' parents were just ready for them to spend less time together. Marty's parents actually transferred him to a different school, which did seem to benefit both of them. Marty was less sullen, while Bobby was more focused on his studies. Unfortunately, the separation didn't last long. Come high school, marty opted to transfer to South Broward High, since classes started two hours later, which left him free of academic commitments, come prime surf hour. Following their reunion, bobby introduced him to weightlifting and shared his secret to bulking up steroids.
Remi:Now, according to my research, it said that Bobby was bigger than Marty. I've never seen a picture of the real people? Was Bobby like a bigger athletic steroids type guy and Marty was more of like a scrawny little guy, or what was the dynamic here?
Ashley:I think, at least initially, these are ninth grade boys that are spending all their free time in the gym lifting weights using steroids. So it wasn't long before Marty also started to bulk up. But the extra weight caused him to be less agile on the waves and he started to lose those relationships with his surfer friends, which meant his only source of connection was Bobby.
Remi:You don't see bulky surfers out there. You kind of gotta have a nimble slim build to you to get through the waves.
Ashley:Unsurprisingly, Bobby's steroid use further fueled his violent tendencies. Once Marty started coming home with visible bruises, his parents actually agreed to send him to live with his aunt in upstate New York. They still weren't aware of the dynamic between the two boys, but they could tell something was wrong. Despite the plan being for Marty to finish school in New York, he asked to come home four months later.
Remi:Why.
Ashley:It's not really clearly explained in the book, but if you put yourself in his shoes he's a 16 year old kid. That's like the time in your life when all that matters to you is friends. So I imagine he went to this brand new school, not to mention this brand new environment. You're taken out of Florida, where you've lived your whole life, and you're dropped in upstate New York. He just probably had a really hard time adjusting.
Remi:As someone who grew up with parents in both New York and Florida, I can say it is a pretty drastic difference between the two.
Ashley:And I do know he went during the winter months, so I bet the weather was just fucking horrendous.
Remi:That is the worst time to possibly be living in upstate New York.
Ashley:Well, whenever Bobby wasn't using Marty as his personal punching bag, the two happily mistreated other innocent victims. Their favorite targets were kids with intellectual disabilities. They could frequently be found taunting other students outside the special education room. When one got mad, they would slap him until he ran away crying. But their favorite game was even worse. When they spotted a kid walking home or waiting for the bus alone, they invited him to play a game of catch, which consisted of them taking turns chucking a football as hard as they could at the victim's head, while the other tried to catch it as it bounced off their punishments.
Ashley:So they were both bullies when they both fed off each other and horrifically treated other kids and sometimes adults with known intellectual disabilities that they viewed as weak. Bobby developed a bit of a penchalance for pornography come mid-adolescence, but not just any kind. For Bobby, the more violent the better. When Marty tried to look away, at least initially, bobby grabbed him by the hair, yanked his head up and forced him to watch. As Bobby's fascination with pornography grew, he decided he wanted to make his own movie. Even though he continued to frequently call Marty homophobic slurs, he was only interested in making a gay porno.
Ashley:In search of potential stars, the duo started frequenting a gay cabaret and disco where they pretended to be a couple. Bobby even convinced Marty to perform on stage and, to his surprise, he loved it. One day, while working out at the YMCA, marty met 42-year-old Harry Suter and invited him to the cabaret that night. While there, harry was introduced to Bobby and agreed to think about starring in the film. When the idea was floated by him, harry grew quite fond of Marty the more they talked and of course his kindness was exploited. Marty claimed his parents didn't support his lifestyle and charged him an arm and a leg for even the most basic of necessities.
Remi:How old are they at this point in time?
Ashley:I believe Marty and Bobby are about 17. It's crazy that the parents of all of these kids have no idea what their children are up to no idea what their children are up to.
Remi:In the film, the only parent that is portrayed as being semi-worried about what's going on is Lisa's mother.
Ashley:Well, to try to help the young kid, Harry loaned Marty $300 and agreed to have phone sex with him three times a week for $25. So I'm assuming this is who Marty was supposed to be on the phone having phone sex with at that opening credit scene of this movie Each time Bobby and Marty came to collect their weekly fees, appliances mysteriously disappeared from Harry's apartment.
Ashley:When he finally got up the nerve to confront the teens, bobby flew into a rage and repeatedly punched him in the face. Harry did call the cops a few times, but never filed a formal complaint. Eventually, finding himself short on funds, Harry agreed to star in Rough Boys, bobby and Marty's homemade pornographic movie.
Remi:They even had a title.
Ashley:And they actually rented a studio space and bought some film equipment for the shoot, but they didn't bother to write a script or really even think about any type of storyline, or really even think about any type of storyline.
Remi:I mean, the fact that they're 17 and they even rented a space to do this in is kind of astonishing.
Ashley:Well, they also failed to tell Harry that he was going to be the film's sole star. The timid Harry showed up on set and did everything the boys asked of him, even as the acts became increasingly degrading, so much so that I am not going to repeat here what they made this man do.
Remi:This had to have been the pornography that Bobby was making Allie watch before he sexually assaulted her.
Ashley:Oh it was. He turns out to be very proud of this movie. To probably no one's surprise, harry wasn't paid a dime for his participation. Bobby did try to sell Ruff Boys to some local porno shops around South Florida, but no one was interested given the poor video quality and general content of what was filmed quality and general content of what was filmed.
Remi:Okay, a 17-year-old kid that has produced his own bootleg gay pornography and is trying to sell it to local porn shops that's pretty depraved.
Ashley:The relationship with Harry finally came to an end after the boys purposefully botched some yard work that he hired them to do. He never saw or spoke to them again. Marty dropped out of high school midway through his junior year, which was a big red flag to Bobby's parents. Bobby promised to spend less time with Marty and got a job at a deli. Within two weeks he convinced the manager to hire Marty and schedule all their shifts together. This is where the 19-year-olds were working when they met 18-year-old Lisa Connelly and 17-year-old Allie Willis in December 1992. Lisa and Allie met at Catholic school when they were five. Lisa's dad divorced her mom not long after. He stayed in touch with his daughter for a while, but contact gradually decreased after he remarried and started a new family. While Lisa's mom struggled to financially support her daughter, allie's parents were incredibly well off. The girls remained best friends even after their personality differences became increasingly apparent.
Remi:They did seem like total opposites, personality-wise, in the movie.
Ashley:Allie was pretty popular and rich. While Lisa was overweight, self-conscious and shy, allie was also a bit of a wild child. She ran away from home when she was 14, and during this time she was actually briefly lured into a high-end sex trafficking ring. In October 1989, her and a friend were repeatedly raped at knife point by their older gangbanger boyfriends. After the men were sentenced to 12 and 18 years in prison, she became terrified that they would escape or send someone after her. She began covering her windows with blankets, had a constant rotating group of friends, spend the night and dropped out of school, thinking all she needed was a change of scenery. Her stepdad sold his electrical contracting business and moved his wife and daughter to Palm Bay, florida, in 1991. Allie kept in touch with Lisa and her other friends through weekend visits back to Hollywood. Despite always doing well in school, lisa also dropped out in 11th grade and got a job at a dry cleaning business. She always did have a lot of friends, but never the one thing she longed for A boyfriend, or even a date for that matter.
Ashley:After spending a long lazy afternoon trying on swimsuits at the mall in December 1992, allie and Lisa grabbed some lunch at the deli where Marty and Bobby worked. Bobby was instantly attracted to Allie and asked if the girls wanted to party with them when their shift ended. Even though they thought Bobby was a bit of a jackass, based on a comment he made about Marty being into bigger girls, they agreed to meet them at the beach in three hours. After ignoring the girls while serving for a bit, marty announced it was time to party. The foursome hopped into Bobby's car and drove around getting liquored up and stoned. The night ended with both couples having sex in the car. From that moment on, lisa knew she was in love and told her mom all about her new boyfriend the next morning.
Remi:That is in the film as well. She literally tells her mom she has a new boyfriend the following morning and from how the film depicted it, none of that had really been discussed. They just kind of hooked up at the time.
Ashley:The book opens with a description of Lisa's teenage bedroom wall, and it's basically just like centerfolds of early 90s Tiger Beat teenage heartthrobs like plastered against every open space, while she just stares at them and wishes she had a boyfriend. So she was just really, really looking for love and Marty came around at just the right time. Lisa immediately started spending all of her free time with Marty. She even purchased a pager so she could respond to his every beck and call. After about a month of dating, her mom overheard a phone call involving Lisa instructing Marty to never hit her again. Her mom flipped when she saw her daughter's bruised and swollen face and screamed at Marty over the phone. He responded by calling them both fat pigs and hanging up Furious at her mom for intervening.
Ashley:Lisa packed a bag and went to stay at Marty's for the weekend while his parents were out of town. To her surprise, bobby was already there when she arrived with a friend. Over the next 48 hours, bobby did everything he could to facilitate an orgy. He prevented Lisa's friend from leaving, fed them a constant stream of weed and alcohol and proudly debuted Rough Boys. Lisa's friend finally found an opportunity to exit, while Bobby pummeled Marty's face because he left a loaf of bread on the counter, causing it to go stale.
Ashley:Lisa had been dating Marty for six months, come late June 1993, but the relationship was obviously far from a happy one. Marty treated her horribly, often calling her fat and forcing her to strip naked while Bobby laughed and egged him on. On several occasions he beat her with a leather weightlifting belt and forced her to have a threesome with him and his best friend. The boys even threatened to beat and possibly rape two of her friends when one got sick in Bobby's car one drunken night. Despite the mistreatment, lisa was blinded by love and convinced Marty only treated her so cruelly because of Bobby's influence.
Remi:What you're saying is filling in a lot of the random scenes that I didn't really understand. What was going on, like when Bobby came out, when Marty and Lisa were having sex and he starts hitting her with a belt out of nowhere. I did not understand what was happening in that scene, but these details are explaining a lot.
Ashley:How it's described in the book is that Marty was always pretty cold to Lisa. How it's described in the book is that Marty was always pretty cold to Lisa, but the physical and verbal abuse was out of this world when Bobby was in the room. So that leads Lisa to believe that it's Bobby's fault that Marty's treating her this way. He really really does love her, but he feels pressured to treat her like shit because of Bobby.
Remi:That aspect of the relationship is not shown in the film. It does not show Marty being meaner to Lisa whenever Bobby is around.
Ashley:Well, lisa actually decided to test this theory and came up with a plan to get Bobby out of her hair for a bit. One day she decided to orchestrate a reunion between him and Allie.
Remi:I was wondering why she called Bobby up to hang out with Allie in the film. Again, it kind of is not explained.
Ashley:Lisa basically calls Allie down and is like oh, do you remember Bobby? He really, really, really wants to see you again. Why don't you come down for a weekend and let's all hang out? And Allie thinks it sounds fine. She didn't really like Bobby, even though later, as she's an adult, she tries to claim that her and Bobby were in this like serious relationship and he was so abusive to her which he did end up doing something horrific to Allie. But their relationship it was just a couple hookups at best. But regardless, lisa calls Allie and says come hang out for the weekend, it'll be fun. And Allie drives down.
Remi:In the film. All the motivation behind why she's doing it is not there, so this is again filling in gaps for me.
Ashley:The first night of this weekend reunion was actually pretty uneventful. Bobby seemed to be on his best behavior and was trying to win Allie's affection. Things took a turn on the second night when he forced Allie to watch Rough Boys and raped her afterwards. Instead of being shocked, concerned or even the least bit bothered by the news, lisa just shrugged and said she warned Allie that Bobby was into some kinky stuff.
Remi:That is exactly what she says in the film.
Ashley:If I were Allie, I would never speak to this person ever again.
Remi:She just runs out of the house. After that. She's an emotional wreck, understandably.
Ashley:After Allie left the next morning, lisa discovered she was pregnant. Even though she had sex with both Bobby and Marty, there was no doubt in her mind that the baby was Marty's. That afternoon she walked to a local arcade and asked her 20-year-old cousin, derek Ziverko, for a ride. And asked her 20-year-old cousin, derek Ziverko, for a ride. Derek was a respectful and well-behaved young man who loved Mortal Kombat and Dungeons Dragons. His gaming abilities attracted the admiring eyes of younger kids, which didn't really bother their parents because he seemed to be a wholesome influence.
Remi:This is shown in the film as well. Every time he's at the arcade playing Mortal Kombat, he's got a bunch of little like 10 year olds around him watching everything he does.
Ashley:Although school was always tough for him, he worked really hard to graduate and planned to join the military until an aggravated elbow injury made him ineligible. Instead he got a part-time job delivering pizza and spent hours upon hours mastering Mortal Kombat at the arcade. Derek agreed to drive Lisa to Marty's and was horrified at what unfolded. Not only did Bobby insist on showing him rough boys, but he had to break up a scuffle between Marty and Lisa. That happened as soon as she announced her pregnancy. Lisa spent the next several hours wandering around the mall asking anyone she knew for money for an abortion. She called it a night around 10 pm and walked home with a measly $10 in her pocket.
Ashley:Lisa and Marty met at the beach to talk the next morning. She expressed concern about how Bobby treated him, which caused Marty to open up to her for the first time. He told her all about how Bobby bullied him for years, but he didn't know how to escape his friends After he made an offhanded comment about murder being the only way out. Lisa said that was exactly what she had in mind. Marty laughed at first, but soon realized she was serious. The more they talked about Bobby being the source of all of their problems, the more excited they became. Lisa called Allie and blurted out the plan as soon as she got home that night. She wanted Allie's help and Allie seemed excited to make the trip, although at this point she didn't think Lisa was actually serious about killing anyone. She was in as long as she could bring her new boyfriend, 17-year-old Donnie Semenik, and friend Heather Swalers.
Ashley:Donnie's mom moved to Florida in 1992 seeking a better life for her two sons. Although he was expelled from school for skipping shortly after the move, he was described as sweet and a pretty well-behaved kid. He was obsessed with Allie and started spending all of his free time at her house. But Donnie wasn't Allie's only house guest during that time. In early 1993, she met 17-year-old Heather Swallers at the house. But Donnie wasn't Allie's only house guest during that time. In early 1993, she met 17-year-old Heather Swallers at the mall. Unlike Allie, heather came from a poor family and lived with her aunt in a cheap motel. Heather's mom was just 15 years old when her dad brutally beat her mother to death with a hammer in a drunken rage. Throughout Heather's childhood her mom had a severe alcohol addiction and treated her and her brother more like nuisances than innocent kids. Instead of bedtime stories. At night they would read transcripts from their grandfather's murder trial with no gory detail being spared. During that chance meeting at the mall, many years later, allie bought Heather $500 worth of new clothes and invited her to stay with her for a while.
Ashley:Allie, heather and Donnie arrived in Hollywood around 5pm on July 13, 1993. Over dinner at Pizza Hut, lisa drilled home all the reasons Bobby Kent deserved to die. He beat and raped Allie and Lisa. He routinely assaulted people with intellectual disabilities and, worst of all, he treated Marty like shit. Although Donnie brought a serrated knife with him, the group decided the best way to kill Bobby would be with Lisa's mom's gun. On the way out of dinner, lisa told her friend, claudia, who worked at Pizza Hut, that the group was going to kill Bobby Kent.
Ashley:The murder plot began to unfold back at Lisa's mom's house. The group settled on a remote location near a body of water in Weston that was slowly being developed into a golf course community. Allie agreed to lure Bobby there under the pretenses that they would race her car and have sex Come nightfall. Lisa, marty, allie and Bobby rode in two separate cars to the abandoned site. As soon as they arrived, bobby made it clear that sex came first. Allie was too worried to take the gun with her out of fear that he might find it, so Lisa decided she would sneak up on them while Allie was giving him a blowjob down by the water. After tiptoeing down there, she got cold feet and everyone made it home unscathed. The next day, a mutual friend connected Lisa and Allie to 20-year-old Derek Kaufman, the leader of a gang called Crazy Motherfuckers, mostly made up of young teenagers, whose crime spree is primarily involved breaking into houses and cars.
Remi:And when we say young teenagers, we're talking like 12, 13.
Ashley:And when we say young teenagers, we're talking like 12, 13. The ages ranged from 10 to 17, with the average age being 14.
Remi:Yeah, that's not a gang.
Ashley:Well to gain admiration from his adolescent followers, derek told tall tales about all the murders he committed and how he was a mafia hitman, all while somehow still living with his parents. Derek was surprised when Lisa told him that she wanted a guy killed, since he was under the impression that he was just needed for a simple assault. Nonetheless, he promised to call her back later. While eagerly waiting his response, lisa instructed Allie and Donnie to pick up Cousin Derek for extra backup. He was quickly found in the arcade, but instead of leaving to meet up with Lisa and the others, he spent the afternoon with Donnie playing Mortal Kombat.
Remi:They are tripping on acid, playing mortal combat, and having very deep discussions about what a fatality means and whatnot what the fuck is fetal death dude?
Cousin Derek:it's like worse, dude.
Bully (clip):It's like way worse because, like you have to live, man, you have to fucking live and you're like a fucking baby, and that was exactly how it was depicted in the book.
Ashley:While this was going down, marty and Bobby followed their typical daily routine of weightlifting and sandwich making. With her patience waning, lisa picked up the friend who told her about Derek Kay and demanded she take her to his house to discuss the nighttime plans in person. The friend ran ahead to try to convince Derek to decline Lisa's murder proposal, but her warnings fell on deaf ears. Instead, he promised to contact his mob associates to get a gun and instructed Lisa to pick him up come nightfall by throwing little pebbles at his window, because of course, he lived with mommy and daddy and couldn't have them being woken up.
Remi:How many days is this after the first attempt?
Ashley:This is the next day.
Remi:Then my description may have been inaccurate. When I said a couple of days later, I was assuming it was a few days later, but the film very much portrays it like it could have been the very next day. I just assume they took a day or two to think about it. But that was my bad. I gave them more credit than they deserved.
Ashley:Everyone reconvened at Marty's house around 10 o'clock on July 14, 1993. Their weapon arsenal consisted of a serrated knife Danny brought with him from home a baseball bat, Cousin Derek borrowed from a friend, and a scuba diving knife and lead pipe gathered by Marty.
Remi:They had the lead pipe in the movie as well, but I couldn't really tell that they had it. They didn't really seem to use it.
Ashley:It's the one thing that's not used. Derek Kay reluctantly told the group that his mob boss wouldn't loan him a gun because it wasn't a sanctioned hit, but he graciously offered to come along anyway in case they needed his professional assistance or advice. After some bickering about who would do the actual killing, Donnie agreed to be the one to deliver the fatal blow. Marty picked up Bobby and the two cars headed to the same swampy wetland. They went to the night before. Although the plan was clearly set in motion, many of the teens later claimed they didn't actually think the night would end in murder, especially not Cousin Derek.
Remi:Nobody was thinking about jail.
Cousin Derek:I guess everybody was in their, you know, in their own subconscious or whatever trying to put it together and you know, like I said, for me it was just like you know where during all this conversation was it really serious? And I didn't catch it. Worst case scenario, they were just going to jump him. You know, it was just going to be a three on one, they were just going to beat the out of him.
Bully (clip):So, but like I said it just. It didn't happen that way.
Ashley:You know, I wish it would have happened that way. After the group arrived, bobby started following Allie down to the water, just like he did the night before. Heather was instructed to follow them and loudly ask if there were any alligators in the water, which would be the signal for Donnie, marty and Derek K to follow. Everyone was briefly immobilized after Heather yelled the signal twice until Donnie snapped into action. He ran down the hill like a madman and nicked Bobby in the base of the neck with the serrated knife. Bobby's face filled with rage when he touched his neck and realized he was bleeding. He probably felt reassured when he saw Marty standing nearby. But instead of being offered help, he received a violent stab in the gut with the sharp scuba knife. Bobby was shocked. Begged Marty to stop and repeatedly apologized to his friend for whatever it was he did wrong. But his pleas were only met with more stabbings from both Marty and Donnie. A stunned Heather and Allie ran back to Allie's car where they remained for the rest of the murder. Bobby followed up the hill and collapsed in front of the vehicles. Marty then jumped on top of his chest, wielded more stab wounds so deep that they pierced and pulled out his internal organs and then started slamming Bobby's head against the concrete. The attack finally stopped after Derek Kay stepped up and hit him in the head with a baseball bat.
Ashley:Cousin Derek was frozen in place while all this unfolded. Although he was terrified, he followed Derek Kay's instructions and helped him carry Bobby to the end of the canal. Derek Kay's instructions and helped him carry Bobby to the end of the canal. Although they realized that Bobby somehow wasn't dead yet on the way down, they threw him in anyway and left around 1.30 in the morning. Although everyone was eager to go home, they agreed to meet at South Beach to iron out their alibis and toss the weapons. Once there, marty realized he left his ninth sheath at the murder site, which meant Allie needed to drive him and Derek K back to retrieve it. While there they checked on Bobby and were unsure if he was actually dead, but they did nothing to help or even end his suffering. Back at the beach, the group tossed the weapons into the water, except for the baseball bat that cousin Derek promised his friend he would return.
Remi:I was wondering about that because he was saying he had to return the baseball bat. But that makes more sense.
Ashley:They talked about their alibi and decided to say that they all spent the evening walking along the South Beach Boardwalk. If asked about Bobby, marty made up a story about him agreeing to meet up with a hillbilly girl. They met at the sandwich shop that day and then Marty was going to stress that he was worried that the girl had gang ties because she was from a rough part of the state.
Remi:Solid story.
Ashley:Throughout this planning process, derek K K stressed that if he was caught he was either going to take everyone down with him or kill them all. The group finally disbanded between 3.30 and 4. Bobby's dad noticed his son wasn't home right away thanks to that call we already discussed from Marty. But he didn't start to worry until come lunchtime. He went to Marty's house around 11 and knew something was wrong as soon as he saw the teenager's face. Despite trying to sound concerned while he told Bobby's dad the story about the hillbilly date lie, he also tried to convince Fred to just wait a couple days before alerting the authorities.
Remi:That's not suspicious at all.
Ashley:Right. Obviously, fred called police as soon as he got home and then called Marty and said you need to get yourself over here and talk to the authorities.
Remi:Anytime anyone says specifically wait to call the police for a while, I would be suspicious. Specifically wait to call the police.
Ashley:for a while, I would be suspicious. Marty reiterated his story but somehow couldn't give a single detail about how the mystery woman looked, despite claiming he saw her less than 24 hours ago. Allie, heather and Donnie got back to Allie's house around 3 o'clock that day, which was July 15th. They emerged from her room three hours later when Allie asked her mom a hypothetical question Was it a crime to not report a murder? If you saw it happen? The police spoke to Marty again the next morning. He handled himself a bit better compared to the day prior and accused the officers of not searching hard enough for his friend. Meanwhile, cousin Derek was trying to distract himself with his beloved Mortal Kombat, but cracked under the pressure of it all and confided in not just one but two random acquaintances. They urged him to tell the police, or at least his parents.
Remi:They urged him to tell the police, or at least his parents, but he was too afraid about potential retaliation from Derek Kay, since he fully believed he was a contract killer After seeing three people brutally kill somebody and hunt him down.
Ashley:How could I not believe him? It scared me to death. Allie and her friends asked her mom more hypothetical witness murder questions on July 17th. Her mom started to suspect that something was up but didn't press her out of fear of provoking one of her daughter's unmanageable temper tantrums. Allie finally came clean later that day, but her mom assumed her daughter was just once again trying to get her parents to pay for her apartment because she mentioned needing a safe place to stay to avoid mafia retaliation.
Ashley:That same day Lisa went to Pizza Hut and confessed to her friend Claudia, while also asking for a ride to the crime scene to check on the body. Instead, claudia called a special hotline for teenage runaways and said she had information about the murder of Bobby Kent. 30 minutes later she told two officers all about her friend's confession, including the names of everyone involved. These officers spoke to Lisa and Marty separately around 11 o'clock. Lisa insisted she knew nothing about the anonymous tip, while Marty just relayed the same story he had already told, but this time the officers were sure he was lying.
Ashley:Lisa called Allie the next morning to update her on everything that had transpired. Allie forbid her and Marty from driving up there. Right that second and successfully begged her mom into getting her a hotel room for a few days. That evening Lisa actually did confess to her mom and accompanied her to cousin Derek's house where they told his parents everything. Derek's parents wanted to call the cops ASAP, but Lisa's mom thought it was best to just wait until the morning. An hour or so later, derek's parents called an uncle with law enforcement ties who convinced them to alert the authorities. While sobbing, derek confessed to everything and agreed to take the skeptical detective, who hadn't yet heard about the missing teen, to the body. Immediately after getting out of the car, the detective heard the high-pitched buzzing of flies and smelled. What I hear is the unmistakable scent of decomposition.
Remi:It was never actually thrown in the water, right Like it was kind of on the edge of the water.
Ashley:This is terrible. I left this part out for a reason, but yes, they chucked Bobby Kent's body into the water and, because he wasn't dead, he made an audible groan as he landed, half in half out, which resulted in Derek Hoffman wading in and pulling the body in, but not very deep, so he was still kind of just floating around the shoreline, of just floating around the shoreline. Starting around 4 am on July 19th, the Bowerd Seven, as they were dubbed by the media, were arrested one by one Of the seven defendants. Everyone except Marty and Heather gave full taped confessions, with each downplaying their own involvement.
Ashley:Most of the teen's parents hired expensive and experienced defense attorneys, while insisting that their child was a good kid who fell in with a bad crowd and was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Although the lawyers were successful in arguing that each case should be tried separately, the entire legal team frequently met as a group to try to come up with some sort of viable defense strategy, since the DA seemed hesitant to offer any deals quite yet. This posed a challenge, since none of their clients, with the exception of Heather and cousin Derek, showed any sign of remorse, asserted that they did nothing wrong and just didn't understand why the case was turning into such a big ordeal.
Remi:In the film. It has a scene where all of them are in a courtroom together, I'm assuming, waiting for hearing or something or other.
Ashley:They were all in the room together at their arraignment, which is when the grand jury says that they're being charged with a crime. But that's the only time they are all in the room together at their arraignment, which is when the grand jury says that they're being charged with a crime. But that's the only time they are all in a room together.
Remi:In that scene they all begin bickering amongst each other like teens would do on a bus ride home or something like that, to the point where the judge, the lawyer and everyone in the courtroom is just staring at them in disbelief.
Ashley:The main strategy seemed to become to just delay the case as long as possible, in hopes that the passage of time would decay memories, make witnesses harder to find or result in misplaced evidence. They also tried to do this thing where they tried to argue a theory called urban psychosis, where they basically said that these middle class teens were just in this environment where, because they were all high school dropouts, or most of them were high school dropouts their community shunned them and they had no other option but to just become juvenile delinquents. They announced this strategy. The media was like what the fuck is this joke? And they quickly abandoned it and never talked about it again.
Remi:I would put that in a similar category to the Twinkie defense which we'll get to in some podcasts, I'm sure.
Ashley:By the summer of 1994, Heather and cousin Derek agreed to cooperate in exchange for lighter sentences. Lisa's attorney actually encouraged her to also plead guilty in exchange for a 12 to 17 year sentence, but her parents refused. Instead they fired him and hired a lawyer that they recently saw featured on Court TV, who told them exactly what they wanted to hear that their daughter was innocent. Marty's trial kicked everything off on September 12, 1994, with the prosecution presenting a rock-solid case. Heather, Cousin Derek and a jailhouse snitch who said Marty boasted about the crime, all testified against him. They also played Derek Kaye's taped confession in its entirety, but perhaps the most damning evidence came from the medical examiner. While he spoke, the DA distributed gruesome photos of Bobby's body and stuck knitting needles into a large doll each time a stab wound was pointed out.
Remi:I know this is kind of morbid to ask, but did the book reveal, when Bobby died from his injuries, how long he had been alive in the Everglades for?
Ashley:I don't think they were able to determine the exact cause of death, which is what Marty's defense team really relies upon. They try to say that not only were the teenage convicts who were testifying were just trying to save their own asses, but they tried to argue that there's no way to know that Marty's wounds he delivered were the ones that actually directly caused the death.
Remi:So they didn't have a specific time of death for Bobby.
Ashley:I don't think they knew exactly when it was he died. Usually if he, for example, had been thrown in face down and there was water in his lungs, then they could argue that he drowned. But because he was face up, they just couldn't tell. He was so badly beaten and stabbed that there was no way to determine exactly when he died. But it sounded like in the book. The consensus was that it was after he was thrown in the water. But again, it wasn't like a specific injury that caused his death. It was just the culmination of it all. Marty was actually the last witness to take the stand. He testified about Bobby's mistreatment, tried to argue self-defense and claimed he didn't report the murder because he truly believed Derek Kaye would kill him.
Remi:Self-defense is a pretty far reach, Marty.
Ashley:How it was described was that after he got nicked in the back of the neck by Donnie, he like turned around and was like filled with rage and just lunged at everyone who was there. So they said that all of this was in self-defense.
Remi:He was unarmed, though.
Ashley:And this is clearly beyond what would be required to subdue your assailant. Well, after eight days of trial testimony, the jury agreed with you. They convicted Marty of first-degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder and recommended a death sentence. But the judge elected to withhold sentencing until all the trials were over. He was sentenced to death by electrocution the following year. Derek K and Donnie were convicted of the same charges but received the lesser sentence of life without the possibility of parole.
Ashley:Lisa gave birth while awaiting trial, saw her daughter for 30 minutes once a month and signed over parental rights to her maternal grandparents. She was convicted of second-degree murder and conspiracy to commit aggravated battery and sentenced to life without the possibility of parole. Allie was convicted of second-degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder and sentenced to 40 years in prison. Of the seven defendants, heather and C and cousin Derek were the only ones to accept plea bargains for second-degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder. Heather was sentenced to seven years and Derek to 11 because he tried to downplay Marty's involvement. While testifying against him, he basically said he wasn't sure if he saw Marty stab Bobby or not and was easily caught in the lie. So, because it was obvious, he tried to save Marty. Even though he had already agreed to fully cooperate, he got a couple of years added on to his plea bargain.
Remi:Bad move. There was no saving Marty at this point.
Ashley:Several of the teen's lawyers appealed their client's convictions. In 1997, the Florida Supreme Court ruled that Marty shouldn't be executed due to mitigating factors. His death sentence was vacated to life with the possibility of parole after 25 years.
Remi:How old was Marty when he was sentenced to death by electric chair?
Ashley:If he was 19 at the time of the crime, he would have been about 21. And when they say mitigating factors, I'm not exactly sure what these are, but based on everything we've talked about about the case, I'm assuming it's his age and the mistreatment from Bobby that were the primary two factors. Lisa's sentence was also determined to be unduly harsh and overturned on appeal. She was resentenced to 22 years in 1998, while Allie's sentence was also reduced to 17 years.
Remi:So they're all out of prison currently.
Ashley:Well, where is everyone now? Heather Swalers was released from prison in February 1998 after serving less than three years. As of 2018, she lived in Georgia with her kids. Cousin Derek was released in October 1999 after serving four years of his 11-year sentence at a minimum security prison. He participated in a 2001 episode of Forensic Files, which is where those two audio clips that I already played came from. He got a job as a long-haul truck driver and settled in Missouri to raise his daughter as a single parent in 2009. Although she was resentenced to 17 years, allie Willis was released in September 2001 after serving just six years. During a 2001 interview with NBC Miami, she said she did feel sorry for Bobby's parents, but not necessarily about her role in his death because quote how can you feel remorse for something you didn't do? End quote.
Remi:To be fair, he did rape her.
Ashley:Well, she also appeared on the Dr Drew show in 2012, where she told her new best friend, Shannon, about the murder for the first time.
Dr. Drew:This is a stay-at-home mother of four struggling with the decision to reveal a shocking secret to her friend, Shannon. She fears that revealing this will end their friendship and she's also set this up to help you understand that, if this does end the friendship, it would be very shattering to her. Okay, so are you prepared to hear what she has to say?
Ali Willis (Dr. Drew Interview):Yes. You prepared to say it? Yes, okay. Alex, you're on.
Ali Willis (Dr. Drew Interview):When I was in high school, I was friends with several people. I had a boyfriend that abused me extremely bad. Well, he was supposed to, there was supposed to be a fight and he was supposed to get beat up. He ultimately got murdered right in front of me. Um, everybody went to prison. I went for eight years on a 40 year prison sentence. Okay, did you have anything to do with him being murdered, or it was just because you were there? Um, the majority, because I was there to watch a fight, and it turned into a murder.
Dr. Drew:That's, that's a little clearer. Um the majority, because I was there to watch a fight and it turned into a murder.
Ali Willis (Dr. Drew Interview):Let's be a little clearer, Alice Um, because of the abuse I had suffered from him. Physically. Yes, okay, the boys were supposed to beat him up and it turned into more than just beating him up, did you? Hire the boys to have them beat up. No One was his best friend of 15 years. There was actually more to that that I didn't even know have happened between the two of them until after I was arrested, to why they did what they did. That ultimately had nothing to do with me. That part.
Dr. Drew:There are two parts I think that are important, though you helped get him to that location.
Ali Willis (Dr. Drew Interview):Yes, let's be fair, you got him there. Yes, I've always taken that responsibility.
Dr. Drew:People say you lured him there. I've always been there, yes, and then, once it happened, then she was threatened with her life if she were to say anything to anybody so before I tell you what she says during the rest of this brief segment, remy, what are your thoughts on alice?
Remi:how would you ever like process that as the friend being just brought on there?
Ashley:my favorite part is just how she, like word, vomits it all out like I was involved in this and everyone went to prison and I went to prison for this amount of time. It's just the bare bones facts of what happened and throughout the rest of the brief segment, that we didn't play. Things get worse. Ali egregiously mischaracterizes her involvement. She claims, claimed she knew nothing about Bobby's mistreatment of anyone else and the whole time thought the plan was for three guys to beat him up because he physically abused her because they were dating. She also claimed that she was the one to go to police and quote get the investigation rolling, even though police reports clearly say it was Derek who alerted the authorities.
Remi:I truly do wonder if this friend ever did happen upon the film Bully to just watch the adaptation of the crime.
Ashley:It is just mind-boggling to me after a movie was made about this story, a book was written about this story, there were five trials about this murder that so many of these people that were so involved in this crime continue which I'll get into it when we talk about Lisa and Marty continue to this day to try to minimize their involvement. It is so gross to me. But anyway, as of 2018, Allie, or Alice, lived in Melbourne, Florida, with her husband and four kids. Donnie Semenik and Derek Kaufman were actually both incarcerated together at the Gulf Correctional Institute by 2018. Neither have been model prisoners, as they've received about 20 disciplinary infractions each for weapon possession, drug and alcohol use and disobeying orders. As of April 2024, Donnie is at the Okeechobee Correctional Institution and Derek is at the Marion Correctional Institution. And that leads us to our star-crossed lovers. Lisa Connelly, who remember was rescinded to about 20 years, was released from prison in February 2004 after serving less than nine by 2013,. She worked at an optometrist's office, ran a cleaning business and lived in Pennsylvania with her husband and six-month-old child, Along with Allie. She agreed to be interviewed for an episode of American Justice in 2001. Like her former best friend, she also downplayed her involvement in Bobby's murder. She described herself as scared and surprised the whole time, adding that she never, ever wanted him to die and played no part in it other than driving one of the cars.
Ashley:Marty Puccio is serving his time at the Everglades Correctional Institution, With the exception of one 30-minute visit shortly after his daughter was born. He first met Megan when she was 10. Marty and Megan were interviewed in a 2021 episode of the since abandoned Crime Juicy Cocktail Hour podcast. I actually did find a transcript of the episode, which is linked in the show notes in case anyone is interested, but before you hop to it, I will say it is pretty cringey. Like his co-defendants, he continues to minimize his involvement. He had a rather self-pitting attitude while he talked about how he was suicidal and living in a quote horror movie because of how obsessed Bobby and Lisa were with him at the time of the murder. He also tried to argue that all of his other co-defendants were more culpable. He called his trial a sham and accused his lawyer of repeatedly coming to court drunk. As for his daughter Megan, she found out who her parents were when she was five. As for his daughter Megan, she found out who her parents were when she was five. One year before the movie came out, she claimed Lisa and Allie were still best friends, even though both repeatedly denied having any contact with any of their co-defendants since they were released. She also blatantly said that she did not like her mom or have much contact with anyone from that side of the family. She has several petitions and social media accounts solely devoted to advocating for her father's freedom, and that is the true story of Larry Clark's bully.
Ashley:Wow, there's no question that this was a really brutal crime that shouldn't have happened. But I think what really surprised me was the fact that three of the five people who were clearly the most culpable throughout this crime tried to minimize their involvement so significantly for decades by saying they didn't know what was happening, by blaming other people, saying that they shouldn't have gotten the sentence they deserved. It is just so gross to me. I know that it's not uncommon for people who are accused of crimes or convicted of crimes to try to say they didn't do it or anything like that, but in a case like this, when there were five trials and there was a lot of evidence not just from five tape confessions but from friends turning on each other and from random witnesses coming out of the woodwork saying so-and-so, told me everything they did. There's no way that Lisa can claim that she didn't think or want Bobby dead, or that Allie had no idea that they weren't all just beating him up because she dated him which is a lie and wanted to retaliate. It's insane.
Remi:The only people in this entire situation that I feel may not have known how far this was going to go was Cousin Derek and Heather. I do believe that they did not really know what was going to go down, heather. I do believe that they did not really know what was going to go down. But everybody else, I think, had motive, except for Donnie Donnie's, like the weird one out here where he just kind of like tagged along and was like I'm down for whatever. But everyone else had a motive in this.
Ashley:He had a motive he was obsessed with Allie so he didn't like Bobby, because Bobby raped his girlfriend. Derek is the one that came along for shits and gigs.
Remi:And I guess Kaufman had no real reason to be doing this other than the fact that he was pretending to be a hitman during all of this. But it is a crazy, crazy story on the film level. On the reality level, I'm speechless at everything that I've just heard. Honestly, I'm really glad that your side of the story filled in a lot of gaps and a lot of questions that I had about the film. And, yeah, I am just astonished but not surprised at everyone's lack of admission to any sort of guilt later on in life. It does seem like everyone in this case has a bit more of a. They did more than I did. They did more than I did and no one is really admitting to be the one who actually did it.
Ashley:Or acknowledging that if they were the one that would have said no or walked away, this wouldn't have happened.
Remi:It was all of them in the end.
Ashley:Something else that was said in the Cram Juicy podcast that came off so badly to me.
Ashley:I get that Megan loves her dad and doesn't believe that her dad, who obviously made a horrible decision when he was 19 years old.
Ashley:She doesn't think he deserves to be in prison for the rest of his life. She loves her dad and in his defense he has actually, unlike his counterparts, been a model prisoner throughout his incarceration. But she said one thing that when I read it I almost closed the article and just didn't continue reading because it's obviously so not true. But she was talking about the movie and she in an offhanded comment, said well, Bobby Ken's parents are millionaires because of this movie. And that was so disgusting to me, not only because it's obviously not true, but it just shows a complete disregard that these parents lost their son in a brutal way and have clearly been suffering ever since and will for the rest of their lives jarred by it. I just couldn't believe the audacity of throwing that out there, Trying to convince people that this low-budget-ass movie that no one has ever heard about made these parents, whose kid was disemboweled and fed to sand crabs, were benefiting from the film's production.
Remi:Yeah, this movie that was released in six theaters. I'm gonna reiterate nobody made millions of dollars off this movie. Nobody, especially the Kent family. As far as my research goes, they were not involved at all, so I don't think they got a dime. And why would they? Their son is not portrayed in a positive light, nor are they. So, yeah, this woman does not know what she is talking about and she is clearly just defending her father for a crime that happened before she was ever even born.
Ashley:And on that heavy note, let's lighten things up a bit with some words of wisdom from Jim Carrey for our objection of the week your honor, I object.
Remi:And why is that, mr reed?
Remi:because it's devastating to my case overrule good call our objection of the week is, for our new listeners, the most superfluous, unnecessary change made from adaptation from the real story to the silver screen. I had a few on this one, but I didn't have anything that was really major. All of the stuff I had with this movie was very minor. A lot of my grievances had to do with locations, like a certain thing happened in a certain area rather than another area. However, the one objection I have on here that doesn't have to do with that is the fact that Marty did not come along on the first attempt on Bobby's life. In the film Marty very clearly stays behind. However, in reality you said that Marty was there on that first attempt when Lisa was going to try and kill him but didn't. At the last minute In the film he states very clearly I'm staying behind on this one and he's not there.
Remi:So that is my objection of the week.
Ashley:Which doesn't make any sense, if you think about it. Why would Bobby be like okay, I'll go out to this abandoned area and have sex with Allie, while your girlfriend Marty stays behind in the car and you don't come? That was a dumb omission from the director's part.
Remi:Agreed, there was zero reason for Lisa to be going along on this venture without Marty. But for whatever reason, marty did not come along on this specific ride.
Ashley:I had yours written down also, but I think I have one better. And that is because earlier you said Heather went to rehab for meth. In reality she was in rehab for crack cocaine. Why change that? Does literally nothing by just changing the drug from one stimulant to the next.
Remi:Okay, I got to give it to you on this one. That is a very unnecessary change.
Ashley:It's just such a really small, minor change.
Remi:And it fits perfectly into the criteria of our objection of the week. But what about the main event of our podcast, our verdict.
Cousin Derek:At the conclusion of each episode, our hosts will deliver a verdict based on the film's accuracy. If the film is an honest portrayal of the events, then it will earn a not guilty verdict. If the adaptation is mostly factual but creative liberties were taken for the sake of entertainment, the film will be declared a mistrial. But if the film ultimately strays too far from the truth, then it will be condemned as guilty and sentenced to a life behind bars.
Remi:Ashley, I will let you start things, because I started things last time.
Ashley:When you introduced your objection you took the words right out of my mouth. I have seven things written down here, four of them listed as very minor changes, and the three that are listed as more major are still really freaking minor, like how Marty was in the porno instead of the 42 year old man. I think the biggest change that the film took was how the anonymous tip came from Heather rather than pizza parlor worker Claudia. But all in all, I am very surprised to say that this movie obviously gets a not guilty verdict. I knew it was going to get a not guilty verdict after 30 minutes of you talking, if that the director, whether you agree with the stylistic direction he took with this film and the decisions he made. He stuck to the source material very, very closely. A lot of the changes that were made were to just tighten up the timeline. So in my opinion, this movie is a not guilty verdict, no questions asked.
Remi:And I wholeheartedly agree with everything you just said. This has been one of our crazier episodes from the true story to the true production stories and, as you were telling your true side of things, it was literally filling in gaps that I saw in the film. There were scenes that were shown that were depicting exactly what you had said, but without the minor backstory to kind of let you understand what was happening. But it was still shown, as well as random characters mentioning their backstories or where they were from. So many little details were kept in this film and Larry Clark, I will say, is probably not a very good human being overall, but he did adapt this story remarkably well.
Remi:Like this is probably one of the most accurate ones that I have seen and definitely one of the ones that had the craziest production stories as well as the craziest after-the-crime stories. Like this entire tale has blown my mind and'm honestly speechless. It was done very, very well. The true story is insane, the production stories are insane and the movie is a plus 100 accurate. Besides minor minor changes here and there, I do think there is some gratuitous stuff that does not need to be in the film at all, and if you were to remove some of those scenes here and there, it would be a stronger film. But overall, yes, this is a not guilty through and through.
Ashley:Well, I guess we got to thank Larry Clark because he has pulled us out of our guilty rut for season four of Criminal Adaptations with, I agree, probably the strongest not guilty verdict to date.
Remi:Which is crazy. We were going over it. It's been a while since we both had a unanimous not guilty verdict. A lot of these stories have been going into the mistrial area, so it is very nice to get one that is a not guilty verdict.
Ashley:Well, you know, I have high hopes for our next episode coming in two weeks. Remy, what are we going to be talking about? I'm sure it's going to be not guilty.
Remi:I almost can't say it without laughing. Two weeks from now we will be discussing the film Orphan. It is a horror movie and all the clips I have looked up for it so far have been murder scenes from the movie. So it is a 100% horror movie which I can't imagine will be true to the real story.
Ashley:But hey man you never know. Yeah, we always watch some YouTube videos before bed, and last night, as we were scrolling through, one randomly came up, probably because our phones listened to us talk. But the video that came up was a composite of all the kills in the Orphan movies and we were going to watch it and then we saw that it was something crazy, like 35 minutes long.
Remi:It was about 29 minutes and 30 seconds or something like that. I cannot imagine that the real story is similar to this, but I am very anxious to see the difference between this ridiculous, crazy story and the true tale.
Ashley:And for anyone who is up to date on their true crime shows. I will be very briefly touching on Natalia Grace, which is a case that happened after this movie came out, and to tide you over in the meantime, here is the trailer of the movie Orphan.
Ali Willis (Dr. Drew Interview):And until next time everybody court is adjournedned we're seeing kids for the first time this weekend. I'm ready to adopt. Adopting an older child is not an easy decision my name is esther.
Bully (clip):Why aren't you down at the party? I've never really seen the point of it.
Ali Willis (Dr. Drew Interview):I guess I'm different there's nothing wrong with being different, you know this.
Cousin Derek:This is an extraordinary little girl. She's very mature for her age.
Ali Willis (Dr. Drew Interview):You seem to have made quite a connection. Is this your house?
Cousin Derek:It's your home too. You're just as much part of this family as Danny and Max.
Bully (clip):It's a pleasure to meet you. This is our new student. I'd like you all to make her feel very welcome today. Oh look.
Ali Willis (Dr. Drew Interview):Little Bo Peep text me she wants her outfit back Esther.
Bully (clip):What are you doing? Something's happening to cause Esther to feel this way. I.
Ali Willis (Dr. Drew Interview):Think there's something wrong with Esther. We need to know what we're dealing with.
Ashley:Trouble does have a way of finding her.
Cousin Derek:My name is Dr Varava. I'm calling from the Sarn Institute.
Ali Willis (Dr. Drew Interview):I don't understand how can they have no record of her being?
Cousin Derek:there. There has to be some explanation.
Ali Willis (Dr. Drew Interview):The orphanage has never heard of her.
