Orphan

In this episode, we dive into the chilling “Kurim case,” the twisted true tale that inspired Jaume Collet-Serra’s Orphan(2009). After dissecting the movie, which includes a clever nod to Leonardo DiCaprio and Titanic (1997), we compare it to the life of Barbora Skrlova, a woman in her 30s who posed as two 13-year-old children, infiltrated unsuspecting families, and participated in one of the worst child abuse cases in Czechia’s history.   

Primary Source:

• Green, Ryan. The Kurim Case: A Terrifying True Story of Child Abuse, Cults & Cannibalism (2016).

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Criminal Adaptations
• 16:25 Exploring 2009's Orphan Film
• 34:51 Esther's Manipulative Behavior Begins
• 52:24 Sister Abigail and Hidden Evidence
• 1:07:54 Kate's Growing Suspicions and Investigation
• 1:24:31 Shocking Revelation of Esther's True Identity
• 1:36:24 Film Release and Critical Reception
• 1:46:18 The Czech Republic's Horrifying True Story

Transcript

Remi: 0:14

Welcome to Criminal Adaptations, the show where we take a look at some of your favorite movies and the true crime stories that inspired them. I'm Remy. I spent over a decade working in the film and television industry in Los Angeles, California.

Ashley: 0:27

And I'm Ashley. I'm a clinical psychologist and forensic evaluator in the state of Oregon.

Remi: 0:34

Welcome back everybody. Thank you so much for joining us again for another true crime film podcast, and if you're enjoying what you're hearing, please tell a friend. Ashley, how are you doing today?

Ashley: 0:48

I am doing great. Thank you for asking, Remy. I actually do, however, have a quick update before we get into this week's episode. That is directly related to what we talked about last week with Bully.

Remi: 1:01

Another update. All right, what's going on with Bully?

Ashley: 1:04

Well, it seems like, once again, michael Pitt has found himself in some hot water. On May 2nd of this year so about a month ago by the time this is recording he was actually arrested for several charges of first degree sexual abuse, as well as charges of assault involving injury with a blunt object and second degree strangulation. It stems from at least four incidents of sexual abuse he allegedly perpetrated between 2020 and 2021.

Remi: 1:36

The trials and tribulations of the cast of Bully continue on. Unfortunately, and if anyone has not checked out that episode, it is probably one of our crazier ones, and literally this is just like something extra we discovered right after we finished recording.

Ashley: 1:54

And another update of an older episode that we kept forgetting to mention Yolanda Salvador, the woman responsible for the murder of Selena Quintanilla, who is the subject of one of our most popular episodes to date, selena from two seasons ago. She actually had her first parole hearing a couple months ago now and, unsurprisingly, it was denied.

Remi: 2:19

That is not a shocker whatsoever, but enough catch up for now. What are we talking about this week, Ashley?

Ashley: 2:27

This week we have come to our seasonal horror episode, and for this episode it is all about 2009's Orphan.

Remi: 2:39

We try to put one of these types of episodes in every season. There are a few true crime films based on horror films not a ton and usually they are not the most accurate, but it is still fun to analyze them and see just how inaccurate some of these films are. Had you heard of the original story that this film is based on?

Ashley: 3:02

You know, I think I might have read somewhere after I saw this movie years after I saw this movie that it was based on a true story or loosely inspired by, but I had not heard anything about the case until I started doing my research for it. How about you?

Remi: 3:18

I am not very familiar with the original story. In fact, I was pretty surprised to find out that the original story happened within the past 20 years. I thought it was a much older story than that. But I am familiar with Christine and Michael Barnett, who were inspired by this film to change their adopted daughter, Natalia's legal age to 22 years old and then abandon her back in 2014. So it is a true crime inspired by a movie which might be a new genre we need to add later on.

Ashley: 3:51

Yeah, it's a pretty wild case. If you haven't checked out the ID docuseries the Curious Case of Natalia Grace on HBO, I highly recommend that. There's three whole seasons of it, and it follows Natalia through her legal case with the Barnetts and subsequent developments that she has experienced since. Just as a quick little rundown for everyone not familiar with Natalia Grace in 2010 she was adopted by the Barnetts. She was a Ukrainian girl with a rare form of dwarfism, so even though her adoptive parents thought she was around six years old at the time, Just two years later they actually petitioned the court to legally change her birth year from 2003 to 1989, which would make her 22 years old, when she was really eight.

Remi: 4:41

And it is one of the crazier stories I know. We were trying to get the miniseries watched before doing this episode, but we didn't quite have time to get that done, unfortunately. But how about the film itself? Had you seen this movie?

Ashley: 4:56

I saw Orphan years ago when it first came out, and I remember really liking it, and we watched the second one not too long ago. I don't really remember much about it, other than Julia Stiles in it, but I remember enjoying that as well. They're not movies that are going to cause you to do a lot of thinking, but they're fun and enjoyable, in my opinion.

Remi: 5:19

I did not see this film in theaters. I do remember that there was a lot of word of mouth going around about how crazy the twist at the end of the film is, but I usually like to find out the twists or surprises of movies early, which I know spoils it. But I went in already knowing how the film ended and as a result, it was not really my cup of tea.

Remi: 5:45

However, I did enjoy Orphan First Kill a lot more than this one, and the team that made Orphan First Kill, I know, is coming back for a third sequel to this one, so maybe that one will live up to the standard set by the last prequel. Now, how about the stars of this film? It has Vera Farmiga, who I have loved in movies like Up in the Air and the Departed, but I kind of feel like she's been slumming it for a while ever since getting wrapped up in those Conjuring films. But I know you really enjoy those films, ashley.

Ashley: 6:17

There are several of them I like. I do think the franchise is overdone and a bit played out at this point, so I'm hoping that this next one that is coming out pretty soon that's going to be about the last case that this couple supposedly did. I hope after that Vera Faminga is going to be able to go back to some of her drama roots and we'll be able to see her spread her acting chops a little bit wider than she's been doing in the past. I don't know, five to ten years.

Remi: 6:47

And we do have one of the Conjuring films on the docket for some later season, and this film also stars Peter Sarsgaard, who actually always mistakes for being a member of the Skarsgård family.

Ashley: 7:02

Well, that, and I thought he was the same exact person as the lead in that TV show, the Strain. What's his name?

Remi: 7:09

Corey Stahl, very good actor.

Ashley: 7:11

Yeah, I found out last week that they are two different people. Look them up they look the exact same.

Remi: 7:18

They do have a striking similarity that I never noticed until you pointed it out. I always think of Peter Sarsgaard from Garden State or an SNL skit where they said his name the only way that I can ever hear it now.

Orphan (clip): 7:33

I think I see what's going on here. You guys don't know anything about me, do you? The only reason you have me here is because my name has a bunch of R sounds in it. No way, stars, darn.

Remi: 7:45

So, with that little bit of laughter out of the way, should we dive into the pre-production of Jean-Colette Serra's Orphan?

Ashley: 7:54

Yes, how did this movie come to be?

Orphan (clip): 7:58

It must be hard to love an adopted child as much as your own.

Remi: 8:02

Orphan is a 2009 horror film directed by Jean-Colette Serra and written by David Leslie Johnson from a story by Alex Mace. The film stars Vera Formiga, peter Sarsgaard, isabelle Fuhrman, cch Pounder and beloved character actress Margot Martindale, who I always confuse with Anne Dowd. Director Jean-Colette Serra made his directorial debut with the 2005 remake of House of Wax starring Paris Hilton, which I have a soft spot for. It's a fun, cheesy horror film. Reflecting back on his experience, colette Serra acknowledged that it was a big project to take on. For a first film, I was like 28 years old. I didn't know what I was doing, but I still love it.

Remi: 8:47

After the financial success of House of Wax, colette Serra was initially uninterested in returning to the horror genre, but after the failure of his follow-up film Goal 2, living the Dream, in 2007, he reluctantly agreed to read a script written by newcomer David Leslie Johnson McGorlick called Orphan, which had been featured on the blacklist of most liked unmade scripts of 2007. Much to his surprise, colette Serra found Orphan's subject matter to be unexpectedly compelling. Since Colette Serra spent his own childhood, raised in a boarding school, he empathized with the character of Esther due to neither of them growing up in a normal home environment. Stating as a child, when you are separated from a normal family environment, it makes you stronger as a person. Screenwriter David Leslie Johnson McGorrick had also been a horror fan and was inspired to write the screenplay for Orphan after watching the 1943 Alfred Hitchcock film Shadow of Doubt, which does not share a lot of similarities to this film.

Remi: 9:49

I just want to point out Shadow of Doubt, which does not share a lot of similarities to this film. I just want to point out Earlier drafts of the script included additional information on Esther's backstory, including that she had been molested by her father throughout her entire childhood, destroying any chance of Esther having her own children later in life. When her father inevitably takes another lover, he tells Esther that it is because she will never mature into a real woman because of her condition, leading to Esther murdering both of them and being sent to a mental institution. After escaping, esther worked as a prostitute in Estonia for a period of time before being arrested, then claiming to be a child in order to stay out of jail, resulting in her being sent to the orphanage.

Ashley: 10:29

That is a lot of backstory they omitted. Why do you think that is?

Remi: 10:33

This film is already two hours long, over two hours long, which it definitely should not be, so I feel like they cut it out for pacing reasons and just to make sure that this is not a two and a half hour movie, because nobody wants that. While promoting the film, peter Sarsgaard and Vera Farmiga both claimed to have accepted their roles. After reading the shocking twist revealed in the final act, however, hollywood insiders allege that the actors only agreed to star in Orphan after being pressured into doing so by Leonardo DiCaprio, who produced the film, so he had a vested interest in its success.

Ashley: 11:11

I mean, if Leonardo DiCaprio called me up and said you're being in my movie, I would tell him you are 1000% correct, I'm being in your movie. He's not someone you tell no.

Remi: 11:27

Agreed. He is definitely one of those people that if he comes calling, you answer every time, and I know him and Vera Farmiga worked together in the Departed and they had really great chemistry together. Years later, vera Farmiga admitted that she only did the film for a paycheck and the opportunity to work with Peter Sarsgaard. In the original screenplay, esther was physically described as having platinum blonde hair, fair skin and delicate features. Isabelle Fuhrman, who was 10 years old at the time, didn't quite fit this description, but auditioned for the role dressed in character, wearing an old-fashioned dress with ribbons tied around her neck and wrists. In the end, the filmmakers were so impressed with Fuhrman's auditions that she landed the role in spite of her alternative appearance, with the director stating �When she read for us she had strong convictions behind every word she said, which is very difficult to find in a child.

Remi: 12:16

Cch Pounder, who has one of the most unique names in all of Hollywood, accepted her role as Sister Abigail after learning that screenwriter David Leslie Johnson McGorick had written the part specifically with her in mind. She also plays Natiri's mother in the Avatar films, so that's fun For the role of Max, the family's completely deaf biological daughter. The production cast eight-year-old actress Ariana Engineer, who is also mostly deaf in real life but has a cochlear implant to enhance her abilities to speak and hear. Orphan was originally written to take place during autumn, but shortly before principal photography was set to begin in Toronto, canada, a two-day blizzard blanketed the entire city in a near record-breaking 10 inches of snow, which resulted in the initial setting being updated to winter and, finally, in a bit of cute behind-the-scenes info that I found while shooting the film. Vera Farmiga taught Isabel Furman how to knit during many of their long breaks together in between scenes.

Ashley: 13:20

Oh, I love that. I wish I knew how to knit.

Remi: 13:23

And with that should we dive into Jean-Colette Serra's Orphan.

Ashley: 13:30

Let's do it, I'm excited.

Remi: 13:42

Our story begins with Kate, played by Vera Farmiga, and her husband John, played by Peter Sarsgaard, arriving at a hospital as Kate goes into labor with the couple's third child, whom they've named Jessica. As Kate is wheeled into the maternity ward, she begins to bleed profusely from her nether regions, which alarms Kate, yet those around her remain eerily calm. After a traumatic delivery, the doctor informs Kate that her baby tragically passed away during the procedure, then presents Kate with a bloody stillborn, causing her to scream out in horror.

Ashley: 14:18

This has to be some sort of nightmare.

Remi: 14:21

You got it. Kate then wakes up moments later, safe and sound, next to her sleeping husband in bed, indicating that the previous scene had all merely been a nightmare. She then quietly heads to the bathroom to take a sleeping pill, where we see a cesarean scar running down her navel, revealing that Kate's bad dream was likely the result of a real-life trauma. The next day, kate meets with her therapist, dr Browning, played by beloved character actress Margo Martindale, where we learn that Kate and her husband have been considering adopting another child, though Kate is still clearly processing her intense feelings of grief brought on by the stillbirth of her daughter Jessica. It is also revealed that Kate has a history of alcohol abuse, but has remained sober for quite some time now. After counseling, kate picks up her five-year-old deaf daughter, max, played by Ariana Engineer from elementary school, then returns home and attempts to practice playing her piano, but is repeatedly interrupted by Max bouncing a basketball against the side of their house while playing outside. Side note here the scene of Vera Farmiga's character playing piano in the house was originally supposed to be much longer, since Vera Farmiga is actually a skilled pianist in real life, but the scene was edited down in the final version of the film, much to the dismay of Farmiga. She had hoped that the full scene would eventually be included in the film's DVD release, but unfortunately it remained excised.

Remi: 16:04

That evening, little Max readies herself for bed by removing her hearing aid, leaving her in complete silence as Kate regales her daughter with a bedtime story through the use of sign language. Afterwards, kate lays in bed with her husband, john, and admits that she is both excited and nervous about their plans to adopt, which had primarily been John's idea from the very beginning. At the orphanage that weekend, kate and John are greeted by Sister Abigail, played by CCH Pounder, amidst a sea of laughing children playing joyously all around them. While searching for the restroom, john instead finds Esther, played by Isabella Furman, a quaint little black-haired Russian girl with ribbons tied around her wrists and neck, singing softly to herself while painting alone in one of the classrooms.

Orphan (clip): 17:03

Are all these paintings yours? Yes, do you like them? They're remarkable.

Orphan (clip): 17:09

Are all these paintings yours?

Orphan (clip): 17:11

Yes, do you like them? They're remarkable. My paintings always tell stories. This one's about the sad mother lion who can't find her cubs. She's smiling, she's dreaming about her babies. It's the only thing that makes her happy. I hope she finds them.

Ashley: 17:32

She will. I cannot believe Isabel Furman was 10 at the time of this, maybe 11 by the time they started filming and that this movie didn't cause her to be in such high demand. She is insanely good.

Remi: 17:46

She really does steal the entire movie away from Formiga and Sarsgaard. She is adorable and she is ominous at the same time. She does a really, really good job, especially for a 10-year-old. The two are discovered by Kate moments later and the couple are both soon smitten by the adorable little 9-year-old and decide to proceed with Esther's adoption.

Ashley: 18:13

The adorable nine-year-old who is a remarkably great painter.

Remi: 18:18

Seriously, I love her paintings. Her paintings are phenomenal in this movie. I don't know who actually did them, but they are really good. And side note here, in earlier drafts of the script I know I keep referring back to this Kate and John go to the orphanage to bring presents to a seven-year-old Puerto Rican girl named Yolanda, whom they planned on taking home the following day. When Kate and John meet Esther, she impresses them just as she does in the film, but the couple have already committed to adopting Yolanda. The next morning, yolanda is found hanging in a closet, with the implication being that Esther had killed her so that John and Kate would adopt her instead.

Ashley: 19:04

I get why they took that out. That's a little much Agreed.

Remi: 19:06

It's also kind of showing your hand a little early here. That's a little much Agreed. It's also kind of showing your hand a little early here. While reviewing Esther's adoption papers with Sister Abigail, John and Kate learned that Esther's parents had both tragically died in a mysterious house fire. Three weeks later, John and Kate returned to the orphanage to bring Esther home with them and meet her new family.

Ashley: 19:28

Oh, if only adoptions were that quick and simple.

Remi: 19:32

Right, you show up and three weeks later you're coming home with a new kid. When they arrive, esther is introduced to Max along with their 12-year-old son Daniel, played by Jimmy Bennett, and Grandma Barbara, played by Rosemary Dunsmore, but she is not really a factor in this movie, so don't pay attention to her. After being shown her room, esther is presented with several welcoming gifts from John and Kate in an effort to make her feel more at home, including a new paint set, as well as a book on sign language to help Esther communicate with Max.

Ashley: 20:05

Those are really thoughtful gifts.

Remi: 20:08

Agreed. It's a very good welcoming of her that this family gives, I must say, except for Daniel. He's kind of being a little asshole during this whole situation, but it's mainly out of jealousy. So the following morning Esther readies herself for her first day of school dressed in a distinctly old-fashioned Victorian-style outfit, with her hair in pigtails and signature ribbons adorning her neck and wrists. Once in class, esther's outdated wardrobe is ridiculed almost immediately by another girl named Barbara, sparking uproarious laughter from the other students. After school we see Daniel out in the backyard shooting toy army men with a paintball gun when he suddenly strikes a pigeon, mortally wounding the small bird. Max and Esther find Daniel moments later consumed by guilt from harming the poor animal, which leads Esther ending the bird's suffering in a truly unsettling fashion.

Orphan (clip): 21:13

Did you kill it? It's just a paintball. I didn't think it hurt him. Put it out of its misery. It's in pain and it's your responsibility. It was just an accident. If you walk away now, it'll of its misery. It's in pain and it's your responsibility. It was just an accident. If you walk away now, it'll starve to death. Is that what you want? I'm not doing it. It's all right. It's in heaven. Heaven now. What's wrong with you?

Ashley: 21:59

oof. This is a really tough situation because she is right, if they just leave the bird here, it's gonna suffer in pain until it either dies from its injuries or freezes to death. But the way she ended it was violent.

Remi: 22:14

And just so cold even her expression. There's no sympathy in there at all. Again, isabelle Fuhrman is a phenomenal actress in this film. I'm sorry I keep being an echo chamber for this. That night, while Esther is taking her bath, kate comes across a strange old Bible hidden in Esther's sock drawer. While putting away her laundry Back at school the next day, esther is purposefully knocked to the ground by another student while walking through the hallway, spilling the contents of her backpack along with her mysterious Bible, which is quickly snatched up by Brenda, whom I referred to as Barbara mistakenly moments earlier, the same girl who had mocked Esther previously on her first day of school.

Ashley: 23:02

Kids are so fucking mean.

Remi: 23:05

I feel like they're meaner in movies than they are in real life, at least more blatantly mean like this, Because when Esther tries to retrieve her Bible, Brenda snatches it up and refuses to let go, then flings the book into the air, scattering its pages and contents everywhere like scraps of confetti. As Esther falls to the floor scrambling to gather her belongings, Brenda sneaks up behind her and attempts to remove Esther's ribbon from around her neck, eliciting an ear-piercing shriek from Esther, stunning the students and the faculty. Back at home, Esther inquires about Jessica after being given a piano lesson by Kate. Although she is hesitant at first, Kate does disclose the tragic backstory of her stillborn daughter, then shows Esther a beautiful white rose bush Kate had planted in the family's conservatory in Jessica's honor.

Ashley: 24:03

Does it address how she even found out about Jessica?

Remi: 24:06

There were photos that Esther saw where there were nurseries being set up and it looked like another baby was coming and the other two kids were in the photo and she put two and two together.

Ashley: 24:18

Maybe photos of her pregnant with the other two.

Remi: 24:21

And Kate had been talking about Jessica to her husband at some point and Esther, as we'll learn, is always listening. In that evening, after the kids are all in bed, Kate and John impulsively have sex in the kitchen until they notice Esther eerily watching them from another room. The next night, Kate attempts to speak to Esther about what she had witnessed between her and John, but little Esther's mature response isn't quite what Kate had initially anticipated.

Orphan (clip): 25:01

Esther we have to talk about last night.

Orphan (clip): 25:06

Do we? Yes, we do See. See, there are certain things that grown-ups do that children aren't supposed to see, and that was one of them. Esther, listen to me. When grown-ups love each other very, very much, they want to show each other that love. They want to express it.

Orphan (clip): 25:30

I know they fuck.

Ashley: 25:33

Poor Kate. She's just trying to have the typical birds and the bees talk with her young adopted nine-year-old and she is quickly caught off guard here.

Remi: 25:45

I do not know how I would react if I was trying to approach my child to have the talk and they responded that way. But side note here, that's actually pretty cute. Director Jean-Colette Serra only did a single take for this scene in order to avoid having Isabelle Fuhrman swear repeatedly.

Ashley: 26:07

Furman swear repeatedly. It seems like they did a really good job of treating this girl, or recognizing that this girl is a kid and this is a movie with very heavy themes and violence, and trying to shield her from that as much as possible.

Remi: 26:24

We'll wait till we get to the almost sex scene coming up towards the end.

Ashley: 26:28

Oh God.

Remi: 26:29

No, it's still PG, I promise. Kate is, of course, mortified with Esther's casual familiarity with such an obscene word, while John is less concerned, believing that she could have just picked it up anywhere. That weekend, john takes Max and Esther to a playground, where Esther's bully, brenda, also happens to be. That day, when John goes off to smoke a cigarette, esther stalks Brenda to the top of a slide, then ambushes her, causing Brenda to fall and break her leg as Max witnesses the entire ordeal. The following day, kate overhears Esther brilliantly playing the piano from another room, contradicting Esther's earlier claims of being unfamiliar with the instrument you told me you didn't know how to play?

Orphan (clip): 27:40

No, I didn't. Yes, you did. You offered to teach me and I accepted. Okay. So then you were just pretending this whole time. I thought you would enjoy teaching me. It must be frustrating for someone who loves music as much as you to have a son who isn't interested and a daughter who can't even hear.

Ashley: 28:03

In true Esther fashion. She's not wrong, but her delivery is harsh.

Remi: 28:09

She is very, very blunt, I must say, but I also gotta ask why would Esther be playing the piano like this? She just really needed to tickle the ivories here, couldn't hold it in, even though it could potentially blow her entire cover. I don't know, seems a little weird. Though it could potentially blow her entire cover, I don't know, seems a little weird. That night, kate voices her concerns about Esther's deceptions to John, but he remains unworried about Esther's peculiar behavior.

Ashley: 28:44

I get that I would think if I were him. Of course she didn't say anything to you. She is trying to ensure that she is accepted into this family and if her new mom comes up to her and says, do you want me to teach you to play the piano, she might be reluctant to say no, I'm better than you are, I don't need it.

Remi: 29:04

The next day the family is paid a surprise visit by Sister Abigail, who relays some troubling details she's uncovered about Esther's past while Esther secretly eavesdrops on the entire conversation from the other room.

Orphan (clip): 29:23

What, what do you mean? You told us you never had any trouble with her. I didn't, but trouble does have a way of finding her. What kind of trouble. Two girls get into a fight. There she is, Someone gets caught stealing. There she is again.

Orphan (clip): 29:39

So is that me Let her finish.

Orphan (clip): 29:41

After you told me about the girl in the playground, I called her old school. While she was there, there was a boy who fell with a pair of scissors in his hand and accidentally stabbed himself through the jaw, and Esther was there again. I don't understand. He accidentally stabbed himself. But the most troubling thing is the Sullivan house fire. I checked into it further. It was arson.

Remi: 30:06

How would you react if you were a parent of an adopted child and the nun from the orphanage showed up at your front door having this speech ready, implying that your adopted child may have been responsible for numerous murders and injuries?

Ashley: 30:27

I would have one question for her. You didn't think about trying to figure this out before you put her out for adoption?

Remi: 30:37

She didn't know before. She just started doing her research after the family had already done the adoption. That's how it's done, Ashley you adopt the child and and then they start looking into the child's past, and then they'll update the parents as you go.

Ashley: 30:53

My question would still stand.

Remi: 30:55

I'm being highly sarcastic, in case anyone did not catch on to that. While the adults are preoccupied, Esther arms herself with a hammer, then steals a handgun from the family's safe with Max's assistance. Once Sister Abigail has taken her leave, Max and Esther get into position hidden just out of view near a small bridge. As Sister Abigail's car steadily approaches, Esther shoves Max directly in front of the oncoming vehicle, causing it to swerve violently off the road and crash into a tree. After fleeing her mangled car, Sister Abigail immediately rushes over to check on Max, as Esther stealthily sneaks up from behind then renders Sister Abigail unconscious after beating her in the face with a hammer. Once Sister Abigail's body has been dragged from the road and thrown into a ditch by Esther and Max, Esther finishes the job with a barrage of blows using the sharp end of the hammer, as little Max looks on in horror.

Remi: 32:04

I do feel bad for Max. She did not know what she was getting dragged into here. Esther then stashes the evidence in a backpack hidden under the floorboards of Daniel's tree house, but is spotted by Daniel during the act. So Esther sneaks into Daniel's room in the dead of night and threatens to cut off his penis with a box cutter if he ever tells anyone what he has seen.

Ashley: 32:28

That would be enough to seal my lips forever.

Remi: 32:32

Agreed, esther is brought in for a therapy session with Dr Browning the following day and, to Kate's utter confoundment, dr Browning deduces that there is absolutely nothing wrong with Esther and theorizes that Kate may be subconsciously projecting her own negative emotions regarding Jessica's stillbirth onto Esther as a way of coping Ashley as a professional in this area. How do you feel about this diagnosis here?

Ashley: 33:10

this diagnosis here. Well, first off, I do not see kids under the age of 14 because their development is just so different from that of an adult. But I can see why the therapist would conclude this. But I would imagine any therapist would want to meet with the child more than one time before telling the mom that she was completely misinterpreting anything that she was observing, based on her own traumatic experience, especially a kid that has as a traumatic past as everyone thinks Esther has.

Remi: 33:40

The frozen, bloodied corpse of Sister Abigail is discovered by the police later that evening, leading to officers being dispatched to John and Kate's home to question them both about the suspicious incident. Once alone, Kate immediately begins googling children's personality disorders in an attempt to better understand her growing suspicions surrounding Esther's behavior. Kate shows John her findings the next morning, but John is skeptical of Kate's assertions that Esther had faked her way through Dr Browning's evaluation. Desperate for answers, Kate tries contacting the orphanage in Russia where Esther had supposedly come from, only to reach another dead end after discovering that they have no record of her. Sensing the escalating tension between Esther and his wife, John suggests that Esther do something nice for Kate in an effort to mend their fractured relationship. Esther agrees, so that evening Esther presents Kate with a beautiful bouquet of white roses cut directly from Jessica's memorial garden.

Ashley: 34:53

Ooh, that is a sick burn Esther.

Remi: 34:55

Kate is understandably mortified by Esther's actions, leading to a minor physical altercation between the two, which John witnesses Later on.

Remi: 35:07

After everyone else has gone to sleep, esther sneaks into the garage and secures her forearm between the jaws of a steel vice positioned on the family's workbench. She then bites down on a screwdriver wrapped in a rag and proceeds to tighten the vice until her arm snaps like a toothpick. After sneaking back into bed, esther cries out in agony, alerting John to come in and check on her. John notices the damage to Esther's arm almost instantly and quickly rushes her to a hospital, where he soon learns that Esther's arm has been fractured. Upon their return home, john confronts Kate about Esther's injury, believing that it was likely the result of her and Esther's earlier scuffle during the whole Rosebush incident. Though Kate adamantly denies any wrongdoing, john still feels that it would be best if Kate slept downstairs for the remainder of the evening, leading to Kate struggling with her sobriety and purchasing a bottle of wine. Luckily, kate has a last-minute change of heart and instead chooses to pour the bottle down the drain without consuming a single drop.

Ashley: 36:18

Good for her. I would not be able to get through all of this shit sober.

Remi: 36:22

Seriously, this calls for a drink, if any situation does. I mean your adopted daughter is framing you the following morning. As Kate is dropping the children off at school, esther shifts the vehicle into neutral, causing it to careen backwards down the hill, nearly killing several innocent bystanders, before colliding with a snowbank, with Max still strapped into her car seat.

Ashley: 36:46

Poor Max. She's just here not being really able to hear what's going on, much less understand it, and is just at risk of death left and right.

Remi: 36:56

I think I feel the most bad for Max in this entire situation. She's a little girl and she has this new sibling and she's just following the lead of the older child here and the older child is trying to kill her. Kate, of course, blames Esther for the entire debacle, while John believes that the incident may have been caused by Kate falling off the wagon after uncovering one of her empty wine bottles sitting in the trash.

Ashley: 37:26

And he's not going to believe her when she says she just poured it down the drain.

Remi: 37:31

To protect his children, john gives Kate the ultimatum of either returning to rehab or losing her entire family once and for all. Meanwhile, Daniel has deduced that Esther murdered Sister Abigail after seeing the crime depicted in several of Max's crayon drawings, including the location of Esther's backpack full of evidence stashed away in Daniel's treehouse. Daniel vows to reveal the truth to his parents after retrieving the hidden backpack, but doesn't realize that Esther has been listening in from the hallway as Daniel needlessly verbalizes his entire conversation to his death, sister Max Like seriously, why aren't they just using sign language here? After waking up in the middle of the night, kate goes to check on Max, only to find Esther there patiently waiting for her. To Kate's surprise, esther drops her helpless little girl act and maturely emphasizes the serious situation that Kate has found herself in, revealing that she had stolen Kate's diary to find weaknesses that she could use against her.

Orphan (clip): 38:55

Going somewhere. Kate, what are you doing?

Orphan (clip): 38:59

here, she's fine her. I will not let you hurt my children.

Orphan (clip): 39:04

Me. I'm not the one who passed out drunk and let Max almost drown in the pond. If it wasn't for John, she'd be dead and you'd probably still be in jail. Who told you that it's very intimate? I learned so much about you. Give it to me, Jessica, your cheating husband Esther. Give it to me when you had your wine bottles. I'm warning you right now. She was still kicking when the doctor told me it was something called phantom fetal movement. For 16 days I carried my dead baby inside me, Esther. It was the cruelest torture I could imagine. Stop it. You stop it. What's wrong with you, Kate? It's too late. It's your own fault. You took your family for granted. What do you mean? What are you going to do?

Ashley: 40:01

Hit me. For those of you listening, you couldn't see this, but as Esther is describing the death of Jessica, Kate takes the diary, but Esther keeps talking because she has memorized the passage.

Remi: 40:20

The next day, kate searches Esther's room, looking for the mysterious Bible she had uncovered previously, only to find it hidden in a new location, inside one of Esther's stuffed animals. Within its pages, kate notices that the Bible had originally been the property of a place called the Sarn Institute, which turns out to be an Estonian mental hospital rather than a Russian orphanage, like Kate had originally assumed. Meanwhile, out in Daniel's treehouse, daniel is trapped by Esther during his attempt to retrieve the incriminating backpack, resulting in Esther setting the treehouse ablaze, with both Daniel and the evidence locked inside. Daniel does manage to escape the growing flames and fiery embers, but falls several feet to the ground, knocking him unconscious in the process. Nearby Esther, who has been watching the chaos unfold with a malevolent grin etched across her face, picks up a large rock and prepares to bash Daniel's head in, just as she had with the injured pigeon. Fortunately, her attempt on Daniel's life is thwarted by Max, followed by Kate, who arrives at the scene moments later. Down at the ER, kate discloses her findings about the Estonian mental hospital to John, along with her conclusion that Esther is purposefully trying to frame Kate as well as harm their children. But per usual, john is still skeptical of Kate and reluctant to believe that Esther would ever willingly do anything wrong. While both parents are distracted, esther finagles a dollar from Grandma Barbara under the pretext of purchasing some snacks from the vending machine located down the hallway across from Daniel's hospital room.

Remi: 42:15

As Daniel lays unconscious and sedated in bed, esther returns to finish what she started by removing Daniel's breathing tube, then using a pillow to try and suffocate him. The medical staff are soon alerted by the flatline alarm triggered by Daniel's cardiac monitor, but Esther is nowhere to be seen upon their arrival. Daniel survives the incident, but Kate knows that Esther was responsible, so administers a mighty bitch slap across the little girl's face in front of numerous witnesses in the hospital waiting room. While still in hysterics, kate is forcibly restrained by several orderlies who inject her with a sedative, rendering her unconscious. Kate awakens drugged and dazed in a hospital bed and is informed that she will be remaining there overnight while John and the children return home for the evening.

Remi: 43:10

Back at the house, john smokes a cigarette while drowning his sorrows in a few tall glasses of wine, before inevitably passing out drunk on the living room couch. John is roused from his slumber sometime later by Esther holding a large kitchen knife along with a serving tray full of fruit and crackers. Though John remains groggy from the wine, he slowly begins to notice that Esther is wearing makeup, has her hair styled differently and is wearing a provocative black dress, giving her the unsettling appearance of a strikingly older-looking woman. John is understandably befuddled by Esther's new look, but is still too intoxicated to accurately process exactly what is occurring. When Esther unexpectedly tries to seduce John by giving him a handjob, he thankfully snaps out of his drunken stupor and firmly puts an end to whatever the fuck is happening here. Side note, the seduction scene between John and Esther was originally written to be much longer and more sexually graphic, but the majority of this content and dialogue was cut when Isabelle Furman's parents threatened to pull her from the film if the scene was not rewritten to be less sexually explicit.

Ashley: 44:38

Good for these parents man.

Remi: 44:41

Agreed. If you have a child actor for a kid, you need to be standing up for them like this, bravo. Back at the hospital, kate receives a shocking phone call from Dr Varava from the Sarn Institute in Estonia, who reveals a jaw-droppingly flabbergasting revelation.

Orphan (clip): 45:03

Hello, yeah, this is she. My name is Dr Varla. I'm calling from the Sarn Institute. Oh, I've just seen the picture you emailed to us.

Orphan (clip): 45:13

And you recognize her.

Orphan (clip): 45:15

Where is she right now? Is she someplace where she can hear you?

Orphan (clip): 45:19

No, she's not with me. She's with my husband at home.

Orphan (clip): 45:22

Call your husband right now and tell him to get your family out of the house, and then call the police he won't listen to me.

Orphan (clip): 45:30

Why?

Orphan (clip): 45:31

then tell him the little girl in the picture is not really a little girl, she's a grown woman, what?

Orphan (clip): 45:37

what are you talking about? The picture that I sent you is of our adopted daughter, and she's nine years old no, she not.

Orphan (clip): 45:47

She has a rare hormone disorder. It's called hypopituitism. It causes proportional dwarfism. She only looks like a child. According to our records, lena Klammer was born in 1976.

Orphan (clip): 46:00

She's 33 years old. This can't be. This is a mistake.

Orphan (clip): 46:05

I hope so, for your sake. Does she have the scars? What I don't know? This is a mistake. I hope so for your sake. Does she have the scars?

Orphan (clip): 46:08

What I don't know, what scars.

Orphan (clip): 46:11

Lena was one of our most violent patients. When she was here she was kept in a straitjacket to stop her from hurting our staff, but she was constantly fighting to get out of it. It got into her skin and left her with scars around her wrists and neck. There is no way you could not have seen them. Why was she at your hospital? She's dangerously ill, violent. She killed seven people that we know of. Oh my God, how could she fool?

Orphan (clip): 46:37

us.

Orphan (clip): 46:38

She's been passing herself off as a little girl for most of her life. She tricked the family here in Estonia into adopting her. When she couldn't seduce the father, she killed him and his whole family.

Orphan (clip): 46:50

Then she burned the house down.

Orphan (clip): 46:52

Yes, how did you know? She disappeared a year ago and we lost track of her. If it's really Nina, you don't have much time.

Ashley: 47:00

If I were Kate, I would have immediately stopped this entire confession and been like hold on, let me hit record on my phone to catch all of this, so my husband will actually finally believe me.

Remi: 47:13

As soon as Kate hears this news, she immediately flees from the hospital as fast as she can and races back home to check on her family. Concurrently enraged by John's rejection, Esther destroys her room in a fit of anger, revealing that behind her adorable childlike demeanor hides a rotten-toothed, haggard woman disguised beneath bound breasts and children's dentures. After hearing the commotion upstairs, john goes up to investigate, but Esther is nowhere to be found. He does, however, uncover a hidden collage of graphically violent and disturbing sex paintings covering the walls of Esther's entire bedroom, which can only be viewed through the use of a blacklight. Personal question here why would Esther do this Seriously? Was she just like so artistic she couldn't contain her creativity? Or is she just supposed to be crazy? I mean, it's a cool visual and all, but it's just like super unnecessary, you know?

Ashley: 48:18

Also, how did she get the materials to paint in complete blacklight on paper and with paint that could only be viewed under blacklight? They've been in and out of her room this entire movie.

Remi: 48:32

The light in the fish tank in Esther's bedroom, I guess, is a blacklight, and that is what she was using this entire time to paint all of these graphic pictures all over her bedroom.

Ashley: 48:47

But again, how did she get the paint?

Remi: 48:56

No idea, not explained At all. But whatever, maybe I'm thinking too much into this film, anyway. So the power gets cut. John goes looking for a flashlight. Then he gets stabbed to death by Esther a few seconds later.

Remi: 49:05

As Esther goes searching for Max, kate comes careening in out of nowhere, making her grand entrance by crashing through the living room after losing control of her vehicle due to the icy roads outside. After discovering John's lifeless body, kate jumps into action and begins frantically searching the entire house for her missing daughter Max, only to be shot directly through her shoulder by sneaky little Esther from an outside window. They all end up playing a bit of cat and mouse for a while, leading to a shootout in the family's greenhouse, where Esther is supposedly killed in the process. As the sounds of police sirens draw near, kate and Max are reunited and the entire ordeal seems to be reaching its logical conclusion. But wait. Then we see that Esther's body has somehow disappeared. Who could have ever predicted this? She then suddenly re-emerges out of the darkness brandishing a bloody butcher's knife and attacks Kate like a rabid little Chucky doll, sending the two of them tumbling down the snowy hill and onto the frozen lake below.

Remi: 50:17

The tussle continues, with Esther quickly gaining the upper hand until Max tries shooting Esther using the discarded handgun. Shooting Esther using the discarded handgun, only two miss completely, shattering the ice beneath them, plunging Kate and Esther into the freezing dark waters below. After being stabbed several more times, kate finally resurfaces and begins dragging her cold, bloody body from the water as Esther tenaciously clings to Kate's leg like a needy little toddler. Clearly this movie is ready to be over just as much as I am. So Kate Karate kicks Esther's head back like a PEZ dispenser, breaking her neck and sending Esther's lifeless body drifting eerily to the bottom of the lake. Side note here, since Leonardo DiCaprio was a producer on the film, this scene was specifically shot to mirror a scene in the 1997 film Titanic, which depicted Leo's character, jack, tragically sinking to the bottom of the ocean after freezing to death.

Ashley: 51:20

Oh my god, I love this reference. So so, so much.

Remi: 51:31

And that's basically the end of the movie. The police arrive a couple seconds later and Kate and Max are both saved, hallelujah. And that was Jean-Colette Serra's Orphan.

Ashley: 51:40

Oh my god, I am now imagining Esther just slowly drifting to the bottom of this lake just with her, like reaching up to the surface, and I'm just getting such Titanic vibes. And I love that reference. I'm obsessed with it. That's my favorite part of this movie.

Remi: 51:58

It's pretty hilarious. It is shot exactly like the same shot of Leonardo DiCaprio sinking to the bottom of the ocean, just fading into the blackness of the abyss of water.

Ashley: 52:14

I'm assuming that wasn't because he wanted that in, but it was just because he was a producer and they wanted to do some sort of nod to him, probably because everyone in this movie was so thankful that he helped fund it. Everyone in this movie was so thankful that he helped fund it.

Remi: 52:26

I don't think he specifically asked anything of this film. I think that they just threw it in as a nod to him for helping to get the film made.

Ashley: 52:38

That is so fun. It also goes without saying, because we've drilled this point home so many times. But I just do not understand how Isabel Fuhrman did not blow up after this movie. She is absolutely remarkable.

Remi: 52:52

Agreed Every scene that I showed you while we were going through this podcast. She steals. She is the center of attention and she steals every scene from Vera Farmiga Peter Sarsgaard. She is fucking phenomenal in this movie and I can't believe that she doesn't have a career like Hailee Stonfeld or one of the other actresses like that.

Ashley: 53:14

She's 10 or 11 years old while they're filming this and she is miles above so many adult actors and actresses we see routinely in films, every day.

Remi: 53:26

Well, are you ready to get into the release portion of Orphan Ashley?

Ashley: 53:32

I still have Titanic on my mind, because it is my favorite movie of all time. But yes, I will try to shift gears.

Remi: 53:39

Orphan currently holds a 60% rating on Rotten Tomatoes, with a critical consensus that reads while it has its moments of dark humor and the requisite scares, orphan fails to build on its interesting premise and degenerates into a formulaic, sleazy horror thriller Womp womp.

Ashley: 54:03

And yet a 60% rating is still rather good.

Remi: 54:06

And yet a 60% rating is still rather good. Seriously, that's a pretty bad critical consensus for a 60% rating on Rotten Tomatoes. Upon its release, the film received additional criticisms from numerous adoption groups, with Melissa Faye Green of the Daily Beast commenting. The movie Orphan comes directly from this unexamined place in popular culture. Esther's shadowy past includes Eastern Europe. She appears normal and sweet but quickly turns violent and cruel, especially towards her mother. These are cliches. This is the baggage with which we saddle abandoned, orphaned or disabled children given a fresh start at a family life. As a result of this highly publicized outcry, the filmmakers decided to replace a single line of dialogue spoken by Esther which had prominently been featured in the original marketing campaign. The line in question, which we played at the beginning of my portion of the podcast, was changed from it must be difficult to love an adopted child as much as your own to. I don't think mommy likes me very much.

Ashley: 55:19

That is a very big change, but I completely understand the criticism they got from it. It's a pretty fucked up line.

Remi: 55:29

Director Jean-Colette Serra would later release the following statement in response to the film's controversy Our goal is to entertain and make movies. Our goal is not to offend anybody. If someone was offended, I think it is reasonable to ask to change one line in the trailer. If it's in the movie, I'm not going to change something because someone is offended. A trailer is more understandable. Over a decade later, a prequel film directed by William Brent Bell and written by David Cogshell, titled Orphan First Kill, was released on August 19, 2022.

Ashley: 56:08

Did you find anything about why they didn't reprise the original director and writer?

Remi: 56:14

I do not, but it seems like this new director and writer are sticking with this franchise, from what I read.

Ashley: 56:21

I did read that Jean-Colette Serra did Shallows with Blake Lively that shark movie so I don't know if that was going on at the same time. I think it was released around 2023-ish, so maybe that's why I don't know.

Remi: 56:36

I don't think that the director had a soft spot for this film, so I don't think it was something that he was dying to come back to in the end. I mean, he wanted to step away from the horror genre before and that didn't work out, so he had to come back and, like you said, the last film that you remember him doing was the Shallows, which is another horror type film.

Ashley: 57:00

But also fun.

Remi: 57:01

I do, like the Shallows, recommend for the Shallows. It's a fun shark movie. But I can understand how he didn't want to return to the Orphan franchise. I mean, I wouldn't. What else is there to tell about this story, honestly? But I gotta say Orphan First Kill way better than Orphan Part One, in my humble opinion. Isabelle Fuhrman also reprised her role as the malevolent Esther, but since Fuhrman was in her early 20s by the time production on the prequel finally began, filmmakers utilized a combination of makeup effects, forced perspective shots and child actor body doubles in order to allow Fuhrman to portray her character again, and and I must admit this is what I thought they did with the first movie I thought this was a full-grown woman that they had dressed up to make look younger. So I was very surprised to find out that Isabelle Furman was only 10 years old when she made this movie and she was in her 20s when they made the sequel.

Ashley: 58:04

So is Orphan First Kill. Even though I've seen this movie, I don't remember supposed to be about the family that she supposedly killed right before Kate's in the arson fire.

Remi: 58:15

It is not. They are pulling a saw with this franchise. In November of 2024, dark Castle announced that a third film had been greenlit by Lionsgate, with David Cogshell and Brent Bell returning to write and direct, along with a now 28-year-old, isabel Fuhrman, who will be portraying her iconic character for a third time. Fuhrman described the next installment in the series as an in-betweenquel, which will take place between the original 2009 film and the 2022 prequel. So they are just gonna keep making prequels, because they didn't know they had a franchise on their hand and that was Jean-Colette Serra's Orphan. But that is just the Hollywood version and I would imagine that the true story is vastly different than the tale I have just told.

Ashley: 59:13

And now the time is finally here, remy, are you ready to hear the true story behind Orphan?

Orphan (clip): 59:33

I am.

Ashley: 59:36

Karim is a small, quiet town with a population of about 12,000 in Czechia, or the Czech Republic as it was known back in the day, or the Czech Republic as it was known back in the day. On the morning of May 7th 2007, edward Trudy was testing out a new baby monitor as his wife was about to go into labor with their first child. Instead of broadcasting an empty nursery, Edward saw a dark, creamy image of what looked like a naked boy, about six or seven years old, with his hands tied, playing with a roll of scotch tape in a small room.

Remi: 1:00:09

What I definitely called the police.

Ashley: 1:00:12

Well, because the boy didn't seem to be in distress, Edward thought maybe he was just playing in his favorite space, pretending it was a bunker or a secret room or something, and went about his day.

Remi: 1:00:23

That's the wrong move.

Ashley: 1:00:25

He returned home from visiting his wife and newborn around five o'clock and decided to revisit the video stream, just in case the little boy with bound hands was in the same spot, but this time he was eating off the floor. Edward called the police and hit record, just in case the feed was lost before they arrived. Responding officers knew the baby monitor had a short range and started knocking on neighbors' doors, but none of them admitted to having a small child locked in a dark room.

Remi: 1:00:54

That's not super surprising that no one fessed up to this right away.

Ashley: 1:00:59

One of the houses belonged to 29-year-old Clara Morova. She claimed the only kid in the home was her 13-year-old daughter, Annika, who was sick and would be upset by strangers searching the house. Police understood and had no reason to suspect she was lying, but Edward knew otherwise. He was still watching the monitor and heard the entire conversation. Law enforcement searched Clara's house and first found Annika, who did look to be a teenager but acted much younger. She crawled down the stairs on all fours, babbled like an infant and started screaming as they approached a padlocked door under the stairs.

Remi: 1:01:37

So she looked like a teenager, but she was basically acting like a toddler here.

Ashley: 1:01:42

Clara said she would open the door if she could, but it was locked when she moved in and she was never given a key. Unwilling to take no for an answer, the fire department was called to bust the door down. Clara then phoned her 31-year-old sister, Katerina, to the house. When the fire department arrived, the sisters and Annika stood in front of the door and had to be physically removed.

Remi: 1:02:05

Because they knew they would be in a shitload of trouble the second that door was opened.

Ashley: 1:02:10

And as it was opened, the first thing to hit everyone was the smell emitting from the unbearably hot room. The concrete floor was covered in human waste, dried urine and vomit. In the middle was a calm, naked bound child who looked straight into the camera and smiled while the scene was being photographed. Clara identified the boy as her seven-year-old son, andre. When asked about his physical state, she became so distraught and just kept saying they wouldn't understand. Katerina chimed in and explained that Andre liked to play in the little room under the stairs because it reminded him of the one Harry Potter lived in before he went to Hogwarts.

Remi: 1:02:51

In his own abusive household.

Ashley: 1:02:53

This excuse was insufficient as it didn't account for why he was naked, tied up, locked in there and playing in absolute filth. Andre was taken to a hospital and treated for dehydration. The physical assessment revealed long scars on his arms and back, pale welts near his groin and a large circular scar on his butt. He remained calm until bedtime when he became delirious, afraid and repeatedly asked the nurses to quote just kill me, please, just kill me. Not long after, he was transferred to the Bruno Children's Institution and was soon joined by the other two kids who lived with Clara, 13-year-old Annika and 9-year-old Jacob, who was at school during the raid. All the children were reluctant to speak to adults at the institution. Providers were convinced Annika was developmentally delayed or had autism, given her small stature, childlike demeanor and obsession with drawing, mathematical binaries and formulas. She was very upset by the separation from Clara who, they learned, adopted her a year or so ago. She also screamed bit and fought anyone who tried to touch her, which prevented nurses from checking her body out for signs of abuse. Which prevented nurses from checking her body out for signs of abuse. To try to get her to open up a little bit, caregivers asked the man who arranged the adoption to come and talk to her, but the meeting went nowhere.

Ashley: 1:04:19

On May 12, 2007, just five days after the children were rescued, annika disappeared, seemingly by crawling out an open window. A high-priority search ensued, but she seemed to have disappeared out of thin air. Jacob and Andre were protective of Annika and very distressed when she disappeared. Prior to her departure, caregivers found scars on Jacob's body that were similar to Andre's, except for the large one on his butt. Jacob initially said the scars were from gerbil bites and wasp stings, but as the boys grew more comfortable with their caretakers, they began to reveal the truth, and it was much, much more sinister. The marks on their bodies were inflicted by their mother, aunt and a woman they only knew as Aunt Nancy, an employee at the daycare they both attended for several years.

Ashley: 1:05:17

They pinpointed the onset of the abuse to late summer 2006, during a summer camping trip attended by Clara and her three kids, katerina, aunt Nancy and another man the boys couldn't name. The cottage was about 30 minutes from Bruno, where Clara and her kids lived at the time. While there, the boys were subjected to unimaginable horrors they were blindfolded, locked inside dog cages, forbidden to talk to each other or anyone else in the cabin and fed from dog bowls. They were only taken out of the cage to be abused further. They were repeatedly beaten, scratched with forks, had cigarettes put out near their groins and had hot water poured over their bellies. On one occasion, andre's head was held underwater, causing him to nearly drown. Oh, and that large circular scar on his butt. That was from Clara cutting off a chunk of his skin and passing it around for the abusers to eat.

Remi: 1:06:09

What the fuck? That is beyond sick.

Ashley: 1:06:13

Andre and Jacob weren't just physically mistreated either, because they had bags over their heads whenever they were let out of their cages. They never knew who was hurting them. All they could hear were the discernible chants, cheers and taunts. They were forced to memorize vulgar words and phrases, had industrial music blared at them and were required to even fight and beat each other. Their captors even had them dig shallow graves and lie inside them while repeatedly being told they were dead.

Remi: 1:06:41

These people are fucking monsters.

Ashley: 1:06:44

Clara and her kids went home after eight days of this pure hell. Jacob was re-enrolled in school but missed 214 days of the year. He wasn't allowed to go on any class trips or participate in after-school activities, likely because Clara didn't want other adults to discover his injuries. Andre, on the other hand, was homeschooled because he allegedly had a hearing impairment that impacted his ability to learn. However, caregivers at the institution found no evidence of any hearing difficulties. He spent the next several months in a basement at the daycare run by Aunt Nancy, who investigators later learned was Hannah Basova. When Andre wasn't in the basement, he was chained to Basova's desk, forced to pee in a bucket and occasionally beaten. Katarina, clara and the kids moved to Karim in December 2006. The women were essentially reclusive and hardly spoke to any of their neighbors. After the move, andre was confined to the bathroom before being locked under the stairs. He ate all meals in complete darkness, went to the bathroom in a rarely empty bucket and was only let out for a few hours on Christmas Eve. This is how he spent the next six months of his life until he was rescued in May 2007.

Ashley: 1:08:03

As the search for Annika intensified after she fled the Institute, authorities found no records of her existence other than court documents related to Clara's adoption of her. Sometime after the escape, the press got a letter from Annika that offered an explanation as to why she ran away. She said she saw a news story about Clara and went to find her. The letter also mentioned Andre being kept in the closet, which Annika said was a disciplinary tactic because he was unruly and threatened to kill her and their mom. Also mentioned Andre being kept in the closet, which Annika said was a disciplinary tactic because he was unruly and threatened to kill her and their mom. Oddly, the letter didn't seem to be written by a child with developmental challenges. It was 10 pages long and free of grammatical and spelling errors, but the handwriting did match the doodles she made. At the institute. Authorities traced the letter to the same cottage the boys were abused at months earlier, but it was completely empty by the time they got there. The media also released photographs of Annika around the time they got the letter from her. Not long after that, several people noticed the strange resemblance between the 13-year-old girl and 32-year-old Barboa Skorlova, a woman who lived with Katerina and used to work with her and Basova at the same daycare. The boys went to Katerina was asked about this resemblance, but said the allegations of 13-year-old Annika actually being a grown woman were ludicrous. Still skeptical, investigators compared Annika's DNA taken at the institute to what was given at the time she was adopted, but the samples didn't match. Shortly after DNA analysis revealed Annika was indeed Barboa Skrilova. So who are the adults involved in this case and what the hell happened here? To answer that question, we have to go back in time a bit.

Ashley: 1:09:59

Clara, katerina and their sister Gabriela were born in Karim in the 1970s. The Morovas were your typical close-knit, middle-class Catholic family. Katerina and Gabriela were invested in their studies, while Clara was the sporty one and played volleyball, gymnastics and synchronized swimming. Clara was 18 when she became pregnant with Jacob and married Roddick Soufall. Jacob was born in October 1997, followed by Andre in September 1999. In October 1997, followed by Andre in September 1999. The young family lived with Clara's parents for about a year until they could afford their own apartment. Although the couple divorced in 2003, the split was amicable. Clara was awarded primary custody of the boys, which no one thought would be an issue because she had no history of violence and was a loving, caring and attempted mom. Soufalle paid his child support and spent as much time with the boys as he could.

Ashley: 1:10:56

After the divorce, clara decided to follow in her older sister's footsteps and began studying child care. In the fall of 2003, katerina invited Clara over and showed her a children's room filled with toys, which was perplexing, since Katarina didn't have kids. She confided in her sister that she recently rescued a young girl from a ring of Norwegian child sex traffickers. To make matters worse, the girl was dying of leukemia and kidney failure, was progressively losing her vision and hearing and probably wouldn't live past the age of 16. Once Clara agreed to not tell anyone about the girl to ensure her safety, she was introduced to Annika, aka Barboa Sklerlova. Even though we know she was an adult woman, she did look much younger, sick and frail as the three spent time together. Much younger, sick and frail as the three spent time together. Katerina pointed out that Annika was drawn to Clara, which was remarkable since she typically cowered from strangers. Not long after, clara agreed to adopt Annika to give her a stable, loving home for the few years she had left.

Ashley: 1:12:05

Before we get into how this fraudulent adoption was pulled off, let's talk a little bit about Barboa. She was born with an enlarged thyroid and deficiency of the pituitary gland which stunted her physical development. She was also diagnosed with epilepsy at a young age. Barboa's physical ailments prevented her from doing a lot of basic adult duties on her own, meaning she relied more and more on the help of others.

Ashley: 1:12:32

Barboa met Katerina while studying musical composition in college in 1996. Over the next few years they developed a friendship and Katerina hired her at the questionable daycare I've already mentioned. Katerina also invited Barboa to live with her, since she had problems navigating everyday life. She frequently locked herself out of her apartment, forgot to turn off running faucets and took hours to even vacuum one single room. Barboa quit her job at the daycare because of an undisclosed illness in 2005. This didn't come as a surprise to her co-worker, since she had lost a ton of weight before she resigned. Now there's one more interesting fact about Barboa and Katerina before we get back to the Annika impersonation and adoption. At some point in their relationship, barboa introduced Katerina to her father, joseph Skrilla, the leader of a cult offshoot of the Grail movement. Bet you didn't see cults coming, did you, remy?

Remi: 1:13:34

I sure didn't no.

Ashley: 1:13:36

The Grail Movement was founded by Oscar Bernhardt in 1926. In true cult-like fashion, Oscar claimed to be a reincarnation of a prophet who lived around the same time as Moses.

Remi: 1:13:49

It's like all these guys read the same handbook.

Ashley: 1:13:51

He also preached that your spirit could return to heaven by performing good deeds. After publishing a book of his teachings, he bought a large chunk of land in Austria and planned to turn it into a compound for his followers. His death in 1941 was marked as God calling him back to heaven. Now the Wikipedia page for the Grail movement is a bit convoluted, but supposedly it has around 10,000 members worldwide. But each faction is split into different sects that essentially operate independently of each other. Barboa's father, joseph Skrilla, was a member of the Grail movement but split off and created his own sect 11 years before the Karim case. He received disability payments for most of his life since he was badly injured when he fell down the stairs as a child. To supplement his income, he convinced people to invest in elaborate schemes with, unsurprisingly, no one seeing very many, if any, return. He also pretended to be connected to international intelligence agencies and militaries. For example, he supposedly tried to sell several tanks which I do not think he had to the Azerbaijan and Armenian governments. The investigation into the Karim case revealed that nearly every adult involved, with the exception of Clara, was connected to Skrilla's cult at some time. Clara initiated adoption proceedings in 2005, still under the impression that Annika was a victimized, developmentally delayed, terminally ill child. This did come as a surprise to Clara's family and friends, since she never talked about wanting to adopt or even having more children. The adoption process was complicated since Annika was undocumented, but Katerina devised an elaborate scheme to circumvent this. First she approached their mother, aliska, and told her the girl's sympathetic tale, making sure to explain the danger she was in if the ruthless Norwegian sex traffickers found her. Aliska was sympathetic and agreed to perjure herself in court if it meant helping her daughters give an unfortunate child a safe home. Per legal documents, the story they came up with was this Little Annika was the child of drug-addicted parents known as Katerina and Clara's grandmother, antonia. Antonia occasionally helped Annika's parents by babysitting, but one day in 2000, they dropped her off and never returned. Antonia unsuccessfully tried to locate them and cared for Annika until she died in 2004. Tried to locate them and cared for Annika until she died in 2004. That is when Katarina says she got possession of Annika, or that's what they told the court.

Ashley: 1:16:37

Clara and Annika cleared every hurdle of adoption proceedings, which included court appearances, social work evaluations and DNA sequencing of Annika. So this is how they had the sample to compare. After Annika disappeared, it appears Barboa actually was the one to attend every court hearing and evaluation, meaning she fooled the judge and every social worker who evaluated her. To do this, she brought toys and stuffed animals with her to every appointment, took on the mannerisms of a kid and wore her hair in pigtails. As for that DNA, katerina told Clara it was imperative a different kid be used to minimize the possibility that Annika's abusers would find her. It was later learned that Barboa and Katerina brought in a married couple from Skrilla's cult for this part of the scheme. The couple had a similar age daughter named Maria, and that is whose DNA was taken for the adoption proceedings. To ensure no one would realize they were taking blood from a different kid, maria was told she was playing a game that required her to observe Annika and copy her mannerisms. Her parents even dyed her hair and bought her brown contacts to closely resemble Barboa.

Ashley: 1:17:55

Annika slash Barboa moved in with Clara and her sons in December 2005. She was apprehensive of the boys at first, but quickly warmed up to them. Taking care of Annika proved to be more difficult than Clara was expecting. In addition to her medical needs, she was emotionally demanding. She regularly asked for gifts and treats and had explosive outbursts when she didn't get her way. Sometimes her behavior was even dangerous. For example, she once threatened to jump out a window while holding a knife. Clara also had to keep a close eye on her at train stations, since she always seemed to be on the verge of jumping onto the tracks.

Ashley: 1:18:33

Despite how taxing she was, clara did everything she could to placate the girl and care for her. Despite Annika's complex medical needs, katerina refused to let Clara take her to a hospital. Instead, she told Clara she enlisted the help of a doctor who worked for the organization that brought Annika into her care. A few months after the adoption was finalized, clara began getting regular texts and emails from this doctor, which consisted of medical advice and reassurances that Clara was the best person to take care of poor Annika.

Ashley: 1:19:10

Katerina also gave her sister written treatment plans she said came from the man. Over time, the treatment plans became stranger and stranger. For example, he prescribed daily spinal massages, some of which lasted for up to eight hours, to treat hydrocephalopathy, a condition characterized by abnormal buildup of cerebral spinal fluid in the brain. He also told Clara that it would probably be good to massage the girls' nether regions for a little bit, just to you know, bond them. Although Clara asked several times to meet with this doctor in person, he only agreed to do so once, at midnight, in a poorly lit area. He only agreed to do so once at midnight, in a poorly lit area. He apparently showed her Annika's medical records and his diplomatic passport, which was enough to convince her of his legitimacy.

Remi: 1:19:59

Really low standards on that.

Ashley: 1:20:07

Well, as you've probably guessed, investigators later learned this doctor was a fraud, who probably never existed at all, since every email address and phone number was traced right back to Katarina.

Remi: 1:20:14

Shocker.

Ashley: 1:20:16

Since Annika required constant care and attention, clara relied on her parents more and more to look after Jacob and Andre. She became withdrawn, depressed and slowly cut off contact with everyone in her life, except for her sister, katerina. The few people who saw Annika only caught occasional glimpses of what appeared to be a sick child, sometimes being carried in and out of the house. By July 2006, which is about a year before the boys were found in the home, clara stopped letting Soufall see his sons, claiming they were too busy with summer camp and educational programs Around this time she also ceased contact with her sister Gabriela and her parents, citing her need to spend more time with the boys because they were exhibiting behavioral problems.

Ashley: 1:21:04

Although she assumed they were acting out to get her attention, katerina and Annika's supposed doctor thought the problem was far worse. They repeatedly told Clara the boys were cruel to Annika and needed harsh discipline and tough love. At their instruction, clara started to hit them whenever they did anything wrong and sometimes locked them in small rooms overnight. Since this corporal punishment didn't turn them into perfect little angels, clara was repeatedly told that they needed a serious attitude adjustment to prevent them from becoming anti-social adults and ending up in prison. Katerina and the doctor thought a taste of life behind bars would scare them straight. Thus the week at the torture cottage was planned.

Remi: 1:21:49

I don't like the sound of that at all.

Ashley: 1:21:56

So, except for the letters Barboa sent to the media pretending to be Annika, there were no sightings of her for months. After the authorities learned of the girl's true identity, she showed up at the Czech embassy in Copenhagen, which is about 480 miles away from the Children's Institute in Brno. She was seeking a new passport on June 15, 2007. She was in the company of four men her father, joseph Skrilla, a lawyer, a former police officer named Joseph Kalinsky, and another man seemingly connected to the cult. Since Barboa wasn't a wanted person at the time and police had no evidence that she was involved in the abuse of Jacob and Andre, the embassy couldn't hold her, but she agreed to leave a hair and DNA sample, stay in contact with authorities and cooperate with the investigation. Stay in contact with authorities and cooperate with the investigation.

Ashley: 1:22:51

Not long after this sighting, the former police officer, joseph Kalinsky, began communicating with the press and authorities. As Barboa's spokesman, he gave sparse details about her escape from the Institute, other than saying she hid in the woods for a while before traveling by train and eventually reuniting with her father. Now, as for why she impersonated a 13 year old girl for almost two years, he assured authorities it wasn't for nefarious reasons. Rather Barboa claimed she started identifying with kids while working at the daycare with Katerina, since she was never taken seriously as an adult. She adopted the mannerisms of the children she cared for to feel happy, safe and accepted. Katerina understood this so-called age dysphoria, as Kolinsky called it, and agreed to help her assume a new identity.

Remi: 1:23:42

Is age dysphoria an actual thing?

Ashley: 1:23:45

No, she's basically just saying I felt like I was a kid, so I decided to pretend to be a kid.

Remi: 1:23:51

Just making sure.

Ashley: 1:23:53

As for the child abuse, Kulinski insisted Barboa was innocent of all wrongdoing. Barboa claimed the only time Andre was locked under the stairs was the day of the raid, and only for two hours to give him time to cool down after he threatened to kill his family. Shortly after Barboa's true identity was learned, the Bruno Children's Institute filed suit against her for illegal impersonation, Although she wasn't charged with child abuse yet. Investigators knew she was an adult and had to have witnessed some of what went on, but failed to report it. They contacted Kalinsky numerous times, asking for Barboa to come back to Zizekia for further questioning, numerous times asking for Barboa to come back to Zizekia for further questioning, but each time he said she was too afraid. Two interviews were scheduled for July, one with Interpol and one over Skype, but she no-showed and dropped off the map once again.

Ashley: 1:24:43

Although prosecutors didn't want to move forward with the trial until she was found, authorities did continue their investigation. A series of raids of members of Skrilla's cult turned up dozens of forged medical documents that resembled what Clara turned over to police in an attempt to prove Annika's backstory. The details given by Jacob and Andre about their torture in the cottage eventually helped police identify the other people. In addition to Hannah Basova, aka Aunt Nancy Katerina's daycare employee, two other men were present Barboa's brother, Jan Skrilla, and Jan Tirek, an owner of a shelter specializing in rehabilitating aggressive dogs, hence those dog cages. Hannah Basova denied wrongdoing and claimed anything Andre said about being locked in the daycare's basement was him mistaking his confinement for brief timeouts.

Remi: 1:25:36

Brief timeouts, I'd say the condition of that room when they found it would beg to differ.

Ashley: 1:25:43

Since it was obvious Turek provided the dog kennels. He was arrested for causing grievous bodily harm in September 2007. But there still wasn't enough evidence to arrest the other two. Clara and Katerina remained largely uncooperative. The few times Clara did speak to police, she insisted her intentions were pure and regretted how her boys were treated, but she never said anything about a possible motivation or reason. This led prosecution to form three possible theories, all related to Skrilla's cult. The first was that Clara was involved in the cult and was operating under the Grail movement's encouragement of a firm and strong-handed approach to child-rearing and discipline to ensure kids grow up to be righteous adults. The second theory was much more sinister. Through the investigation, police learned Clara and Katerina rented three homes which, on paper, they shouldn't be able to afford. The room Andre was locked in also contained a high-quality imported camera. Was it possible that the women were selling child torture porn? And finally, the wildest theory of the three stemmed off, jacob once saying Annika was special and chosen by God. He also recalled times he and Andre were woken up in the middle of the night and told she was going to be beaten unless they each agreed to take one lashing for her, which they almost always did. Maybe this whole idea was a way to reinforce the boy's loyalty to Barboa because she was some sort of idol or religious icon. Regardless of the motivation, the investigation stalled by mid-2007.

Ashley: 1:27:25

2008 kicked off with a seemingly unrelated event. On January 5, 2008, michael Rio was arrested while returning a rental car in Norway. He was apprehended because his 13-year-old traveling companion, a boy named Adam Farner, was abducted from a youth center in Oslo several weeks prior. Adam was placed at the facility in mid-December 2007 because his father, martin Farner, was arrested for suspicion of child abuse During a group outing. A few days after, he ran away to an idling car that quickly sped off. Authorities assumed he was abducted, possibly by someone working for his dad. Three days after that, adam was spotted at a hotel with Michael Rhea 300 miles away, but the pair were gone by the time. Police arrived Immediately after the missing child and alleged kidnapper were apprehended. Investigators made a shocking discovery Adam was, in fact, 33-year-old Barboa Skrlova Skrlova. They were extradited and landed at the Prague airport on January 10, 2008. Barboa arrived holding a teddy bear and a children's book. The real Adam turned out to be safe and sound in Czechia with his mom and siblings. So the child abuse charges against Martin Farner were dropped and investigators learned just how Barboa pulled off her second child impersonation.

Ashley: 1:29:01

In 2007, martin worked as a playwright and lived about an hour and a half from Bruno with his wife and three kids, one of which was 13-year-old Adam. Martin was part of the Grail movement and had been acquainted with Barboa for a decade, but they hadn't spoken in several years. In May 2007, right after she escaped the Children's Institute, she showed up with two sect members asking for help. Since she seemed scared and sick, they agreed to take her in, thinking they were helping a friend in need. A few months later, barboa and the family moved to Sweden, seemingly because Martin got a new job at a theater. Once there, joseph Skrilla met with the family and asked if Barboa could stay just a little bit longer, only until the media storm from the Karim child abuse case died down. Barboa then began to take over the family's entire life and came up with the idea of impersonating Adam to help her blend in.

Remi: 1:29:56

I did not see this coming. I really, really didn't.

Ashley: 1:29:59

To their credit, Martin and Helena did try to talk her out of it, but her persistence wore them down. Barboa then shaved her head, bound her breasts and insisted everyone call her Adam, which had to have been so weird for the actual Adam that was still living with the family. As all this was going down, as the school year approached, she decided she needed some more socialization and wanted to go to school as Adam. They again tried to talk her out of it. Once Martin relented, Helena realized she needed to get her kids away from this chaos and move them back to Sezequia. Martin stayed behind and tried to manage Barboa the best he could.

Ashley: 1:30:40

It wasn't long before teachers noticed Adam's strange behavior. He was quiet and studious, but he also seemed fearful, looked to be at least 16, and refused to play sports with the other kids. After a few months, he started telling disturbing stories about being sexually abused by his dad and pimped out to older men. While speaking to a psychologist, he drew seven kids covered in blood with a man standing over them. This is what led to Martin's arrest and Adam's removal from the home. I don't understand why she does this, because it really just puts her in such a precarious situation of being caught.

Remi: 1:31:20

She did a lot of things in the movie that would have led to her being easily caught as well. I am not sure the motivations behind the real person or the fictitious one not share the motivations behind the real person or the fictitious one.

Ashley: 1:31:34

Barboa seemed to cooperate during her first formal police interview on January 15, 2008. She claimed she was abused with Andre and Jacob and showed several scars, cuts and burns that initially appeared to support this. Investigators spoke to her a few more times in January, but her answers were vague and nonspecific. Throughout this entire ordeal, clara had held onto the belief that Annika was real. After Barboa was arrested and she was forced to face the truth, clara finally spoke to police and told them Barboa participated in some of the abuse, in that she beat the boys a few times and was the one to hold Andre's head underwater. Barboa was willing to talk again after she was charged with child abuse on February 11, 2008, but this time her story was drastically different from anything we've heard thus far. Although she previously claimed to have assumed the identity of Annika because of age dysphoria, now she accused the Morova sisters and Hanna-Bassova of forcing her into the transformation through years of physical, psychological and chemical abuse.

Remi: 1:32:44

She's just throwing anyone she can under the bus at this point.

Ashley: 1:32:48

She claimed that they locked her in the basement of the daycare, injected her with drugs and forced her to take pills, while they trained her on assuming the identities of kids with the intention of selling her, to quote evil men who do ugly things to kids. She credited her escape from the children's institution to two unnamed men who rescued her from her life of rape and beatings. Her account as to why she impersonated Adam was similar. The investigation finally concluded on April 8, 2008. The Morova sisters, Hannah Basova and Jan Skrilla, were facing up to 12 years in prison for child abuse and depriving the liberty of minors. Barboa and Tirek were looking at eight years for aggravated cruelty. Katerina and Barboa were also indicted for malicious damage to the reputation of the Bruno Children's Institute for the way the impersonation of Annika and her escape tarnished the agency's reputation. They were both acquitted of this charge on May 9, 2008,. Since the deception began years prior and wasn't done with the intention of hurting the agency, the trial of one of the biggest media cases in Czechia's history kicked off on June 17, 2008. Clara was the first to testify. She tearfully confirmed the validity of the charges and was the only defendant to admit guilt. She maintained that she loved her sons, was only trying to correct their behavior and acted under the instruction of Katarina. As for the prosecution's three theories that I highlighted earlier, she denied ever making any sort of torture, porn and affiliation with the Grail movement.

Ashley: 1:34:33

Jan Tirek testified next. He said his only connection to the case was those dog cages and although he didn't dispute that he was at the cottage, he claimed he didn't know why Katerina asked for the kennels and wouldn't have given them to her if he had, which doesn't really explain why you hung out at the cabin for a week while these kids were being horrifically abused, Like Clara. He also denied involvement with the Grail movement and knowledge of Annika's true identity. Next up was Barboa. She maintained that she was forced into the role of Annika, repeatedly raped and only held Andre's head underwater because Katerina forced her to. Although she said the cuts and welts on her skin were evidence of torture, medical examiners testified that most were old or superficial abrasions. They also noticed that many of the scars from so-called cigarette burns slightly changed positions and were the exact size of the back of a pen, leading them to conclude that they were self-inflicted. As for any larger scars, they were from a breast reduction and liposuction she had in college. It was also highly improbable that she was ever raped, since her hymen was still intact. Katerina Basova and Jan Skrilla did not testify.

Ashley: 1:35:57

Prior to the trial, the prosecution hired several forensic experts to evaluate the defendants. Clara and Barboa were the only two to meaningfully participate. Clara was diagnosed with histrionic and dependent personality disorder, symptoms of which include a pattern of excessive emotionality and attention-seeking and a need to be taken care of by others that results in submissive and clingy behavior. These features caused her to be easily manipulated by her sister because she desired her approval. Because she desired her approval, Katerina was also diagnosed with a personality disorder, likely antisocial personality disorder, since she was described as intelligent, authoritative, self-centered and lacking in empathy. They also believe she had sadistic tendencies, which she fulfilled by mistreating her nephews. Barboa was also diagnosed with histrionic personality disorder.

Ashley: 1:36:53

The evaluators did not believe her abuse claims, since there was never any evidence of PTSD or drug withdrawal from the substances she said she was forced to take for years. They also thought she wasn't as defenseless or submissive as she pretended to be. Instead, she acted infantile when it suited her and made a deliberate decision to impersonate a kid every time she did so. Barbeau's defense had two of their own psychiatric experts evaluate her, and boy oh boy were their findings different. They diagnosed her with PTSD and believed her attachment to her alleged abusers, primarily Katerina, was a form of Stockholm Syndrome. Rather than being manipulative, they thought she was naturally submissive, especially to people she viewed as authority figures. Instead of a prison sentence, they recommended she receive inpatient mental health care. The discrepancies between the opposing experts caused an uproar in court. The judge actually paused the trial for two and a half months and ordered new experts to evaluate Barboa, this time ones that weren't hired by the prosecution or defense.

Remi: 1:38:06

Neutral parties. That's a good idea.

Ashley: 1:38:09

Once the trial resumed on October 16, 2008, eight specialists from the Modal University Hospital in Prague testified that Barboa had histrionic personality disorder and a dissociative disorder that caused disturbances in her identity, awareness, memory and perceptions.

Remi: 1:38:41

So primarily backing up the prosecution's analysis.

Ashley: 1:38:46

Yeah, it was definitely in line with what the prosecution has said. Katerina changed her mind about testifying and took the stand the first day the trial resumed. She began by reading a written statement explaining that she took Barboa to a psychiatrist in 2003 and that the dissociative disorder caused her to unintentionally exaggerate things and misperceive reality, which is why she thought the medication she was prescribed were drugs and the behavioral therapies were torture. Katerina went on to say that Clara offered to help Barboa through her age dysphoria by adopting and taking care of her meaning. She implied that Clara knew Barboa was impersonating a kid and was actually an adult all along. As for the abuse of the boys, she testified that she and Clara, with the help of quote, a man in whom they had implicit trust, devised a re-education program to curb their unruly behavior, which was the purpose of everything that transpired. She then refused to answer any more questions.

Ashley: 1:39:50

Clara was very distraught while her sister testified at one point, yelling why do you have to take it away from me? I want it all back. Why are you lying? Can't you see? You took away my children. I want them back. At closing, she again expressed remorse for everything she did. She said she wasn't expecting a lenient sentence, but wanted to make it clear that she loved her sons, thought she was acting in their best interest and wouldn't have hurt them without outside influence. The judge took three days to decide the verdict and sentence On October 24, 2008,. He found each defendant guilty of their charges and ordered them to maximum security prisons. Katerina was sentenced to 10 years, clara to 9, hannah Basova and Jan Skrilla to 6, and Jan Turek and Barboa to 5.

Remi: 1:40:42

Every time I hear about someone's sentence in another country it seems alarmingly light compared to what someone like that would get here in the States.

Ashley: 1:40:52

Yeah, at the very least I would think the sisters would have gotten longer sentences, because this abuse was horrific.

Remi: 1:41:01

It's unforgivable.

Ashley: 1:41:04

After the trial, a unit specializing in organized crime launched an investigation into whether other abusers associated with the Grail movement were involved. The daycare center was also under intense scrutiny, since five of the six defendants worked there at some point. In the end, there was no evidence of additional cult involvement, much less a child torture pornography ring. The organized crime unit tried to find Joseph Skrilla, but his whereabouts since he showed up with Barboa in Denmark in June 2007 are unknown. Although the leader of the Grail movement publicly denounced Skrilla and stressed that he was not involved with the mainstream movement. For over a decade their reputation and image was tarnished. For over a decade their reputation and image was tarnished.

Ashley: 1:41:54

Jacob and Andre were diagnosed with depression, various phobias and PTSD, but they gradually improved with therapy. There were periods of regression, primarily related to cruel schoolmates. Although their caregivers did their best to shield them from the media, other kids occasionally slipped them. Newspaper articles sometimes that showed their mom crying on the front page, that were related to the trial. Andre was even mocked because the media got hold of that baby monitor video of him naked and thought it was a brilliant idea to broadcast it on the evening news.

Remi: 1:42:28

That's in such poor taste.

Ashley: 1:42:31

On a positive note, gifts poured in after their mom was sentenced to prison. An anonymous donor even paid for two summer trips to the Italian seaside to give them a change of scenery and get their minds off what was going on back home. Although the trial ended in October 2008, they remained at the Children's Institute for four years while the court decided who would get custody of them. Their father was out, since he was unemployed and couldn't provide for them anymore, which left Clara's parents as the only viable option. This was complicated by the fact that Alishka was charged with perjury for lying at Barboa's adoption hearing In June 2011,. A judge concluded that her motives for lying weren't malicious and she was granted custody of the boys. They were allowed to occasionally visit their mom in prison once their condition improved.

Ashley: 1:43:21

Clara was paroled in October 2013 after serving just five years. Since she reconciled with her family. While incarcerated, her sister, gabrilla, helped her find a place to live and got her a job as a secretary at an employment agency. She interacted with her sons more, but they weren't allowed to live with her. Katerina was released in June 2014. Unlike her sister, she did not rebuild the relationships with her family. There were no details about when the other four defendants, including Barboa, were released, or what happened to them after. And that is the true story of Jean-Colette Serra's orphan.

Remi: 1:44:03

Wow, even though the real person didn't murder anyone, I think she may be worse than Esther. This is a crazy story, and why would they change that twist? What a crazy reveal that would have been to find out that the little boy was actually a 33-year-old woman. That would have been way more mind-blowing. What a crazy story that was dulled down into a pretty generic horror movie. In my opinion, this real story is insane. I really was not expecting so many twists and turns, cults and so many things I know right.

Ashley: 1:44:43

I was surprised enough when I found out that Barboa was impersonating a 13-year-old girl, but then, when she did it again with a boy, my mind was just blown.

Remi: 1:44:55

Yeah, that is way more mind-blowing than the reveal that Esther is a 33-year-old woman.

Ashley: 1:45:01

What do you think about Clara the mom?

Remi: 1:45:04

It's hard to say. Really. It seems like she was genuinely remorseful, but that doesn't excuse what she did at all. What do you think?

Ashley: 1:45:15

I do believe her claims when she testified that you know, I thought I was helping and it seems that she was manipulated and brainwashed really over a pretty big chunk of time by someone who she seemed to love the most her sister. But I agree that it does not excuse her behavior. It helps understand it a little bit, I guess. But it's just really hard to imagine getting to the point where you're cutting skin off your son's butt and eating it, like there's a lot of times in there that she should have been like um, maybe this is going a little bit too far.

Remi: 1:45:52

Yeah, there's no coming back from that. So I do believe that she felt remorse and I do think she did the right thing by admitting to her part and taking responsibility, but it will never, ever excuse what she participated in and allowed to happen, even if she was being manipulated. And I think that brings us around to what normally would be our objection of the week. But we've decided to introduce a new feature to this part of our podcast. So with a movie like Orphan, where it's very obvious that they changed almost everything, we are going to be focusing on the few things that this film got right. So this will be our sustained of the week instead of objection.

Orphan (clip): 1:46:40

If I hear objection and sustain one more time today, I think I'm going to scream Objection, sustain.

Remi: 1:46:47

Ashley, do you want to kick it off this week with the one thing that you feel this film got right out of the true events?

Ashley: 1:46:56

Sure, I had two things written here, but I'm going to go with the medical condition that they said Esther had in the movie. I think I said it wrong earlier but the hydrocephaly which I probably just said it wrong again, but that condition is what the real Barboa did have, so I'm going to give it to them for getting the disorder right.

Remi: 1:47:19

That's a pretty good one. It beats mine. Mine had to do with her appearance and even though the script described her as being very different, Isababel Furman actually fits the description of the real girl quite well, with the pigtails, brown eyes, and when she was impersonating the little boy she bound her breasts, and in the film it actually does show a scene where she has her chest bound. So physical stuff. They got correct, even though in the script it wasn't correct. But I do feel like yours is the better of our sustained this week.

Ashley: 1:47:54

The other one that was interesting is Esther was 33 in the movie and that is how old Barboa was when she was apprehended.

Remi: 1:48:03

Well, congratulations, ashley. You get the sustainment for our very first try at this new feature on our show, which I'm positive will be back. But now we are at our main event our verdict of the week.

Narrator: 1:48:20

At the conclusion of each episode, our hosts will deliver a verdict based on the film's accuracy. If the film is an honest portrayal of the events, then it will earn a not guilty verdict. If the film is an honest portrayal of the events, then it will earn a not guilty verdict. If the adaptation is mostly factual but creative liberties were taken for the sake of entertainment, the film will be declared a mistrial. But if the film ultimately strays too far from the truth, then it will be condemned as guilty and sentenced to a life behind bars.

Ashley: 1:48:48

You know, usually we try to cause a little suspense with the verdict by going back and forth explaining things, discussing it. But, Rami, do you think we really need to do that here?

Remi: 1:49:00

No, it's pretty obvious on this one, and we're both in full agreement this is a guilty movie. I think that goes without saying.

Ashley: 1:49:12

When there are only a few things that are even kept the same from the true story to the movie, that's a pretty dead giveaway that you're looking at a guilty verdict. This is on the level of scream guilt. It's bad.

Remi: 1:49:23

They literally just took the concept of an adopted child who was actually an adult and had nefarious purposes behind it and twisted it into, like I said before, a pretty generic horror movie. And the true story, in my opinion, is much more interesting. And the real Barboa is a very, very fascinating character psychologically that I think could have been very interesting to see portrayed on screen. I think Isabel did amazing with Esther, but I think it would have been interesting to see her tackle Barboa.

Ashley: 1:49:59

And now that Orphan is in our rearview mirror, Remy, what do we have coming up in the next two weeks?

Remi: 1:50:07

We are at our season finale episodes, where we take two different films that share a common theme, and this season we will be covering Malcolm X and starting things off with American History X. Two very different films about two extremely different ideologies and very different people, and I am very interested to analyze these films and find out the true stories behind them.

Ashley: 1:50:34

I'm actually very jealous of you going into these next few weeks. Both of these movies I know are critically acclaimed. I have seen American History X. It's been a very long time I remember loving it, and I've actually never seen Malcolm X.

Remi: 1:50:49

I have seen both films. They're very different and I am a fan of both films. I think it's Denzel Washington's best performance ever, and probably Edward Norton's best performance ever as well. But that is two weeks from now. We are going to leave you with a little taste of the trailer for the movie we will be covering next time American History X. And until then, court is adjourned.

Orphan (clip): 1:51:15

Look, I told you I don't want you all coming up here to see me. I don't care what you told me. Okay, I'm trying to get through this and you're just making it harder.

Orphan (clip): 1:51:21

You think?

Orphan (clip): 1:51:21

you're the only one doing time, derek, you think I'm not in here with you.

Orphan (clip): 1:51:27

He was his mother's hope. He's gone. You don't know the world. Your children are living in his father's legacy it's everywhere.

Narrator: 1:51:34

I look now what this affirmative black shit the white man march is on.

Orphan (clip): 1:51:42

See this that means not welcome and his brother's hero I trust you, darren drop your weapon and his brother's hero. I trust you, derek, drop your weapon Dad no.