Catch Me If You Can

In our season five premiere, we put Steven Spielberg’s Catch Me If You Can (2002) under the microscope and compare it to the real-life story of Frank Abagnale Jr., the infamous con man whose wild exploits inspired the film. How much of Leonardo DiCaprio’s slick, globe-trotting portrayal matches reality, and how much is pure Hollywood invention? We dive into Abagnale’s early scams, his claims of passing as a pilot, doctor, and lawyer, and the FBI’s pursuit led by agent Joe Shea – the real counterpart to Tom Hanks’s character Carl Hanratty. We also examine how Abagnale reinvented himself after prison, becoming a security consultant, and question how reliable his own version of events really is. Was Frank Abagnale truly the “greatest con man of all time,” or has he been conning us all along?

Primary Sources:

• Logan, Alan. The Greatest Hoax on Earth: Catching the Truth While We Can. (2020).
• Frank Abagnale’s Website

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Theme: DARKNESS (feat. EdKara) by Ghost148

Chapters

• 0:19 Welcome to Criminal Adaptations
• 5:54 Spielberg and Tom Hanks Films
• 17:46 The Plot of Catch Me If You Can
• 46:31 Film Production and Development History
• 1:04:31 The Real Frank Abagnale Jr. Story
• 1:45:23 Frank's Career After Prison
• 2:01:38 How Frank Fooled Everyone for Decades
• 2:19:38 Final Verdict on Film's Accuracy

Transcript

Remi: 0:14

Welcome to Criminal Adaptations, the show where we take a look at some of your favorite movies and the true crime stories that inspired them. I'm Remy. I spent over a decade working in the film and television industry in Los Angeles, California.

Ashley: 0:27

And I'm Ashley. I'm a clinical psychologist and forensic evaluator in the state of Oregon.

Remi: 0:34

Welcome back to season five, everybody. Such a big accomplishment. I never thought we would make it this far, but here we are, me and Ashley back for another season. Ashley, how are you doing today?

Ashley: 0:49

I am doing great. I also can't believe we've made it this far and I am just super hyped to keep going. We actually have our next two seasons planned out and they are filled with such great films, such great stories that we are so excited to talk about and share with you guys.

Remi: 1:07

And we are super appreciative for anyone that's tuning in for the first time, or if you've been listening for a while, or if you're just listening to an episode now and then we are sincerely appreciative. And if you like what you hear today, then please just leave a like comment, follow a review. All of those things help us tremendously and help us bring better episodes to you guys in the future. But what are we here to discuss today? Ashley?

Ashley: 1:39

today we are kicking things off with a blockbuster of a movie. It is steven spielberg's 2002 movie Catch Me If you Can starring Leonardo DiCaprio and Tom Hanks. That is allegedly inspired by the real-life tale of a man named Frank Abagnale Jr, who is a conman turned reformed I guess now you would say anti-crime hero.

Remi: 2:11

Is that really what he's going by? I would beg to differ with that a little bit. But yes, another Leonardo DiCaprio movie to kick things off. I know that you are one of his biggest fans, Ashley, because of his star-making performance in Titanic. But what about Steven Spielberg, the man who made the film we are about to discuss? Do you have a favorite Steven Spielberg movie that you can think of off the top of your head? I know there's so many.

Ashley: 2:40

That is a really, really tough one. There are so many good ones Schindler's List how can you not have that? We also watched Close Encounters of the Third Kind and ET very recently. Such good films. But I do have a favorite, and it is Jurassic Park. That is my favorite Steven Spielberg movie. I love Jurassic Park. It's one of those movies that you can watch again and again and again and even though I've seen it so many times and know everything that happens and can even say some of the dialogue, it never gets old to me.

Remi: 3:16

Jurassic Park is definitely a banger, and they have yet to replicate the magic that that first film made. Now, what is it? 30 years later, they haven't been able to do it. We just saw the recent Jurassic Park movie and, spoiler alert, it stinks.

Remi: 3:35

My favorite Spielberg movie. I gotta say in retrospect, we just watched a few Spielberg movies the past few weeks. As you had just said, I'm gonna go with ET. I loved ET as a child and I still love it today, and it has such a weird magic to it. I still get moved when I watch that film to this day. And not to mention Saving Private Ryan Schindler's List, as you mentioned. Spielberg is one of the all-time greats and I'm pretty sure this is the only time we are going to be discussing him. He's not a big true crime guy.

Ashley: 4:13

I do agree with you. Et is a really close second. We have been actually talking about rewatching that for, I think, a full year, but it was one of those movies that was not on any streaming service for forever. And then, I think a week or two ago, it like popped up on Hulu and we watched it immediately and I agree with you, it is so good. I even choked up and got teary eyed. Drew Barrymore is just the cutest. He is the godfather to her children. It's just precious. It is a good movie and it definitely stands the test of time.

Remi: 4:50

It is truly a wonderful film, and I could go on and on about ET forever, but this film also stars Leonardo DiCaprio and Tom Hanks, which means we probably would have ended up seeing this film regardless. But do you have a favorite Tom Hanks movie? I know he is sort of America's uncle or America's dad. Everybody likes Tom Hanks. This movie has a lot of people involved that everybody likes minus Frank Abagnale.

Ashley: 5:20

This is another tough one because Tom Hanks also, like Spielberg, has so many great movies. When I was thinking about this question, three popped into mind and then then I sat a little longer and then my winner came to my mind. So the three that came into my mind as my favorite Tom Hanks movies are Green Mile.

Remi: 5:39

A classic Love, michael Clarke Duncan.

Ashley: 5:42

Saving Private Ryan.

Remi: 5:44

This would be my pick.

Ashley: 5:46

And You've Got Mail. I love that movie. Everyone likes Sleepless in Seattle more but that movie. I was too young when it came out, but I'm obsessed with You've Got Mail. I love it.

Remi: 5:56

I know you love. You've Got Mail and we will be discussing Meg Ryan a little bit with our movie two weeks from now. To die for, even though she is not the star.

Ashley: 6:07

The movie I landed on as my favorite Tom Hanks movie is Toy Story.

Remi: 6:12

That went completely under my radar. I wasn't even considering that one.

Ashley: 6:17

The first one is still the best, but every time they announce they're coming out with new ones, it's always like, oh, this is going to be the one, it's going to be the one that's going to suck and bomb the franchise. But it never does. They're all so good.

Remi: 6:32

That is definitely one of the best films Mr Hanks has ever done. I also love Forrest Gump. I have never seen Philadelphia, believe it or not. That is one of the films that has been on my need to watch list forever, but have yet to get around to it.

Ashley: 6:49

Well, we will be covering it at some point, because it is based on a civil case well, let's get into tom hanks's portrayal in this film.

Remi: 7:00

Catch me, if you can. Are you ready to get into it, ashley?

Announcer: 7:04

oh, I sure am, oh would you like to hear me tell a joke?

Remi: 7:08

yeah, yeah, we'd love to hear me tell a joke, yeah.

Frank Abagnale Jr.: 7:12

Yeah, we'd love to hear a joke from you. Knock, knock, who's there? Go fuck yourselves.

Remi: 7:24

Catch Me If you Can. Is a 2002 film directed by Steven Spielberg. Is a 2002 film directed by Steven Spielberg, starring Leonardo DiCaprio, tom Hanks, christopher Walken, martin Sheen, natalie Bay, amy Adams and James Brolin. The screenplay is by Jeff Nathanson and based on the semi-autobiographical book by Frank Abagnale Jr. Book by Frank Abagnale.

Ashley: 7:49

Jr which, until after this movie came out, was marketed for 30 years as a straight-up autobiography. No semi involved.

Remi: 8:01

We will be debunking that as the podcast continues. I'm sure Frank Abagnale Jr sold the film rights to his autobiography back in 1980, and, according to Abagnale, legendary TV producers Norman Lear and Bud Yorkin bought the rights after seeing him on the Tonight Show starring Johnny Carson.

Ashley: 8:24

That is true. Bud Yorkin did originally buy the rights.

Remi: 8:28

Two years later they sold the rights to Columbia Pictures, which eventually passed them to producer Hal Bartlett. Bartlett and his business partner Michael J Lasky hired screenwriter Stephen Coons, but the project inevitably stalled after Bartlett passed away before it could find a distributor. In 1990, according to Daily Variety, executive producer Michael Shane acquired the rights for Paramount Pictures. By December 1997, the rights had landed at Hollywood Pictures, a division of Disney, but when the project went into turnaround the rights changed hands again, this time going to Bungalow 78 Productions, a division of TriStar Pictures. From there the script finally made its way into the hands of legendary filmmaker Steven Spielberg over at DreamWorks. So it changed hands quite a few times before finally finding someone to make it finally finding someone to make it.

Ashley: 9:34

One thing I read in my research of it is the reason why it took so long to get made wasn't necessarily because of a lack of interest in the project, but more so because they just didn't know how to take this book and make it into a movie.

Remi: 9:45

Well, screenwriter Jeff Nathanson first got involved after watching a tape of Abagnale speaking at one of his public seminars. He later discovered that Abagnale had also written a book detailing his escapades and brought it to DreamWorks pitching the idea to make into a movie, even though he didn't actually read the book until after he had already been hired to write the script. Until after he had already been hired to write the script, nathanson began working on the screenplay around the same time that Titanic came out, and since there weren't a lot of young actors who could convincingly place someone from ages 17 to 28 at the time, nathanson would often joke maybe we'll get Leonardo DiCaprio to be in the movie. He would eat his words by July of 2000, when DiCaprio read the script while he was in Rome shooting Gangs of New York and signed on to star in the picture soon after. David Fincher, one of my favorite directors, was briefly attached to direct in early 2000, but would later drop out in favor of making Panic Room.

Ashley: 10:54

I think it would have been much darker, that's for sure.

Remi: 10:57

Next up was Gore Verbinski, who would go on to direct three of the Pirates of the Caribbean films. Verbinski even got as far as casting the film with James Gandolfini as Carl Hanreddy, ed Harris as Frank Abagnale Sr and Chloe Savenier as Brenda Strong. But due to DiCaprio's scheduling conflicts with Gangs of New York, verbinski eventually dropped out of the project as well. By May of 2001,. What's Eating? Gilbert Grape? Director Lassie Holstrom entered negotiations to direct, but he left the project two months later.

Ashley: 11:34

Session underrated Leo film.

Remi: 11:36

I love what's Eating Gilbert Grape. I think it's sort of forgotten at this point since the two lead actors have done so much, but anyone who has not seen this film, highest of recommends for what's Eating Gilbert Grape. After the what's Eating Gilbert Grape. After the what's Eating Gilbert Grape director left the project. Both Ed Harris and Chloe Savigny exited as well, though DiCaprio and Gandolfini remained attached Around. This time, spielberg, co-founder of DreamWorks, offered the film to Milos Forman, whom you may remember from our People vs Larry Flint episode. While the deal was being negotiated, spielberg ultimately began warming up to the idea of directing the film himself.

Steven Spielberg: 12:21

I had just come off of Minority Report, just finished shooting it and I was sort of in a dark place, having made two semi-dark pictures back to back, and thought, wow, what a breath of fresh air this will be for me. I really sometimes enjoy that whiplash sensation going from Jurassic Park to Schindler's List, and I had a chance now to go from Minority Report to Catch Me, if you Can so selfishly. I looked at this story as an opportunity for me to take a really great creative occasion and work with a young man who I've always admired, who one day was kind enough, just based on my calling his agent, to send my daughter his biggest fan an autographed picture, and that meant a lot in my family and made me a hero amongst my kids, and I got DiCaprio's signature on a picture for my daughter, who was at the time about seven years old.

Ashley: 13:09

I must say I have never been more jealous of a seven-year-old in my life. But what I especially love about that quote is I think it really explains a lot about why Spielberg's films are so diverse, why he has movies that are dramas, that are thrillers and ones that do have more of this comedy aspect. It makes a lot of sense that after directing a very serious movie, that he would want to lighten things up a bit or just kind of get out of that headspace and do something more light-hearted and this is something that I feel like the best of the best directors do.

Remi: 13:49

They explore different genres, they try different things. They get out of their comfort zone. They will do a serious film, then they'll do a comedy. Richard Linklater is another director that I think does this brilliantly, and I just love it when directors don't get boxed into one specific thing and can explore other stuff, like this.

Ashley: 14:10

And I think with any profession it helps with burnout. If someone is just sticking into this box of very, very dramatic movies that deal with a lot of loss, sorrow and death, I can imagine it would be really hard to not start to get into that same mindset yourself.

Remi: 14:29

By August of 2001,. Spielberg had officially signed on to direct but now had to find a replacement for James Gandolfini, who was forced to exit the project due to scheduling conflicts with the Sopranos. Spielberg was initially hesitant about approaching Tom Hanks to fill the part of Carl Hanrity, since he assumed Hanks wouldn't be interested in playing a supporting role because he was already one of Hollywood's biggest stars at the time, having previously won two Oscars for his performance in Forrest Gump and Philadelphia. However, hanks quickly set Spielberg straight, telling him A good part is a good part, no matter what the size. However, hanks quickly set Spielberg straight, telling him the search for someone to replace Chloe Sevigny as Brenda Strong took several months until eventually, spielberg and producer Walter F Parks came across an audition tape from Amy Adams, which Parks called as fresh and honest as anyone we'd ever seen, which was exactly what the role needed.

Remi: 15:38

Christopher Walken was soon brought in to play Frank Abagnale Sr. Thanks to Walter Parks' suggestion, martin Sheen was cast as Roger Strong, brenda's father, because, as Spielberg put it, sheen had a naturally intimidating presence. No-transcript, one of the actresses who auditioned was Natalie Bay, who ended up landing the role. And finally, spielberg had seen Jennifer Garner on her TV show Alias, and offered her a small role in the film, which ended up being one of the more memorable cameos, in my humble opinion. Filming was originally scheduled to begin in January of 2002, but was delayed until February. Shooting took place across various locations, including Los Angeles, burbank, downey, new York City, quebec City, montreal and Ontario International Airport, which stood in for Miami International Airport. In total, the film was shot in 147 locations in just 52 days, which is staggering.

Ashley: 17:05

I was gonna say that is an insane amount of locations and not a lot of time just under three months.

Remi: 17:14

Leonardo called it one of the most intense filming situations that he had ever been a part of. But enough dilly-dallying. Should we finally get into our season premiere of Steven Spielberg's Catch Me If you Can?

Ashley: 17:29

I can't wait, let's do this.

Remi: 17:44

Our story begins in 1977 with Frank Abagnale Jr, played by Leonardo DiCaprio, appearing on a game show called To Tell the Truth alongside two other men, all of which are dressed as pilots. As the contestant attempts to figure out which of the three is the real Frank Abagnale Jr. Frank is introduced to the audience as the man who successfully impersonated a Pan Am airline pilot, served as chief resident pediatrician at Georgia Hospital, worked as an assistant attorney general in Louisiana and cashed nearly four million dollars in fraudulent checks across all 50 states and 26 foreign countries between 1964 and 1967, all by the age of 19.

Ashley: 18:36

So in this real episode that you can find on YouTube I found it and I watched it Frank is the only one dressed as a pilot, one is dressed as a doctor and the other one is dressed in like a jail suit, like a convict.

Remi: 18:51

As the judges question the panel on the show, frank reveals that the man who finally caught him was an FBI agent named Carl Hanrity, played by the one and only Tom Hanks. We then flash back to Christmas Eve 1969 in Marseille, france, where Carl pays Frank a visit at a grim French prison where he is being held in maximum security. The two speak through a small grated slot in the cell door where we can hear Frank coughing violently from inside, claiming to be unwell and in desperate need of medical attention. Carl, however, isn't buying it and believes that Frank is faking, so presses on by explaining that Frank will be extradited back to the US the following morning. Carl continues, but Frank suddenly collapses, causing Carl to shout out for a doctor, as prison officers rush in and escort Frank to the infirmary. Doctor.

Remi: 19:54

As prison officers rush in and escort Frank to the infirmary, however, the second the guards have their back turned. Frank makes a break for it, slipping out a nearby door, leaving it slightly ajar during his hasty escape. Unfortunately for Frank, he doesn't seem to have been faking his poor state of health so is physically unable to get very far before being recaptured. We then flashback again to a previous Christmas, six years earlier, in New Rochelle, new York, 1963, where Frank Abagnale Sr, played by Christopher Walken, is being honored with a lifetime membership to the New Rochelle Rotary Club. In the audience, 15-year-old Frank Jr and his mother, paula Abagnale, played by Natalie Bay, watch proudly as Frank Sr delivers the following speech.

To Die For Trailer : 20:46

Two little mice fell in a bucket of cream. The first mouse quickly gave up and drowned. The second mouse wouldn't quit. He struggled so hard that eventually he churned that cream into butter and crawled out. Gentlemen, as of this moment, I am that second mouse.

Ashley: 21:11

I am so moved by that Remy. I think I found my vows.

Remi: 21:15

I love Christopher Walken he makes a story about a Sr is actually James Brolin, husband of Barbara Streisand and father of Thanos Josh Brolin. Back home, as Frank Jr dances with his mother, paula, in the living room, frank Sr hangs his Rotary Club plaque on the wall. While recounting the story of how he first laid eyes on Paula dancing on stage during a show for American soldiers while he was stationed in France during the war, frank instantly fell head over heels for Paula, even swearing to the other men around him. I will not leave France without that woman. Frank, of course, kept his word, culminating years later into the happy family we see blissfully waltzing together around the Christmas tree that very evening.

Ashley: 22:17

And they did actually meet during World War II.

Remi: 22:21

The following morning, Frank Sr takes Frank Jr into the city to get a new suit for a business meeting. Though the store is closed when they arrive, Frank Sr still manages to charm a female employee into opening the doors early by claiming that they urgently needed the suit to attend his grandfather's funeral. Frank Sr even offers the woman a small necklace as an additional incentive to let them quote-unquote borrow the suit for the afternoon. After securing the suit, Frank Sr has Frank Jr pose as his limousine driver to help Frank Sr appear more important when arriving for his meeting with Chase National Bank. During the meeting, Frank Sr attempts to secure a loan, but the bank declines his request due to his unresolved issues with the IRS, including being investigated for tax fraud. With the loan denied, he and Frank Jr are forced to sell the family car and buy a cheaper one just to get by.

Ashley: 23:27

So this is really interesting. Spielberg is trying to kind of frame this as Frank Jr learned his con man ways at a young age from his dad.

Remi: 23:38

That's what I always took it as yes.

Ashley: 23:41

And in reality, none of this was even in Frank's autobiography, much less true. His dad worked as like a mail carrier.

Remi: 23:51

Though Frank Jr continues to idolize his father, the financial strain begins to take a toll on his parents' marriage, which is only exacerbated even further when Frank Sr is forced to sell the family home and move everyone into a smaller apartment. For Frank Jr's 16th birthday, frank Sr opens a checking account in his son's name at Chase Bank, complete with a checkbook containing 50 blank checks. Eventually, after attending private school his entire life, frank Jr is transferred to a public school in an effort to help cut down on his family's expenses. On his first day of class, frank Jr shows up wearing his old private school uniform and is mocked relentlessly for it by one of the other students. Instead of backing down, however, frank boldly acts as if he is the substitute teacher and begins lecturing the entire French class.

Catch Me If You Can Clip: 24:53

Quiet down, people. My name is Mr Abagnale, that's Abagnale, not Abagnale? Not Abagnale, but Abagnale. Now somebody please tell me where you left off in your textbooks. Excuse me, people, If I need to ask again, I'm going to write up the entire class. Take your seats.

Ashley: 25:15

I have a comment and a question. My comment is I get Leonardo. Had a baby face for a really long time, but Homeboy does not look 16 in this.

Remi: 25:26

Neither does the student he's trying to humiliate in the scene either. I will add.

Ashley: 25:33

And second, at any point in the movie does he try to say he was a college professor?

Remi: 25:38

No, that is not in the film. This is the only portion of the film where he pretends to be an academic teacher of any sort teacher of any sort.

Ashley: 25:53

So in his autobiography he said he taught at Brigham Young University for not a very long time, just two semesters. So I'm assuming that's Spielberg's way of making it kind of more of a coherent storyline, by still keeping that teacher aspect but making it so it was much younger.

Remi: 26:07

Spielberg was streamlining the story and I just have to comment on what Frank did in this scene. It is called a confidence con, I believe, where someone literally just acts confident as if I'm this person in this place, I'm supposed to be here doing this thing and, because of the person's confidence behind what they're doing, everyone around them thinks that they are legit. It is very impressive when people are able to pull this sort of thing off in real life, at least in my book. Frank continues posing as the substitute teacher for an entire week, even giving out homework, calling parent-teacher conferences and planning a field trip to a French bread factory in Trenton, before eventually being found out.

Ashley: 26:56

Where was the real substitute during this entire week?

Remi: 27:00

You didn't see it in the scene, but where he is talking to the class. At the very, very beginning the real substitute teacher comes into the classroom like hey, I'm supposed to be here substituting. And Frank passes it off as if oh, you're here too. They must have hired two substitute teachers, you should go home. And the lady leaves like really frustrated that she got booked for something that another teacher was already on. So yeah, again confidence scheme. He acted like he was supposed to be there and even the real substitute teacher didn't question it.

Ashley: 27:35

I mean that would be believable. She doesn't have any connections with the school at all.

Remi: 27:40

Yes, if it was a real teacher. That stretches credibility. Substitute it's easier to buy. Though Frank does eventually face consequences for his actions, frank Sr still seems rather impressed that his own son was able to pull off such a wild deception for an entire week, and I would be impressed too, honestly. Some time later, frank catches his mother having an affair with James Brolin, but promises not to tell on her. Paula divorces Frank Sr not long after and personal side note here Spielberg's parents' divorce was a huge influence on so many of his films, including ET, close Encounters, war of the Worlds, the Fablemans. Even Indiana Jones would bicker and argue with his love interests constantly, to the point where I remember thinking as a child how in the hell are these two people supposed to be in love if they're always fighting and can't stand to be in the same room together?

Ashley: 28:44

So later, after this movie came out, frank started interjecting this like huge sob tale about his parents divorce, about how, like he was a perfectly well-adjusted young man until he was pulled out of class one day and brought into court and the judge broke it to him that his parents were getting divorced when he was 15 and it like ruined his life and led to him being homeless on the streets when in actuality, his parents had been separated for like three years prior to that. But after this movie came out, he in all of his speeches kind of framed his whole. The reason why he became a quote unquote con man was because of his parents divorce, and I do not think that it is just a coincidence that he started speaking about this after he met Spielberg and this is how it was portrayed in the movie knowing how Spielberg portrays marriages and how much his parents' divorce impacted him and his entire career.

Remi: 29:47

In the film. This is the deciding incident that sends him on his path to all of these insane cons. Traumatized by his parents' divorce, frank runs away from home by writing a check for a train ticket to Grand Central Station, then writes two more checks for temporary lodging, all of which inevitably bounce. Checks for temporary lodging, all of which inevitably bounce. One evening, after finding yet another place to stay after being kicked out of the first, frank uses an exacto knife to alter his birth date and last name on one of his checks, then begins going from bank to bank across the city the following day, unsuccessfully attempting to cash it. During his efforts, frank notices that Pan Am airline pilots were remarkably well-respected and treated with admiration wherever they went, giving Frank a bright idea. I feel like we need to chime in here a little bit. Pan Am is a defunct airline and back in the day, for whatever reason, airline pilots were really, really well respected. They were practically celebrities wherever they went.

Ashley: 31:01

Anyone working with air travel because it wasn't as affordable and accessible as it is today.

Remi: 31:08

People used to only dress up in suit and ties and nice dresses whenever they traveled, which is very, very different from today and how I dress at the airport when traveling.

Remi: 31:21

Posing as a high school journalist writing a story on Pan Am, frank arranges an interview with one of the higher-ups working at the airline. While there, frank takes detailed notes and even manages to obtain an expired airline personnel badge, along with a photocopy of an FAA pilot's license. Afterward, frank calls the uniform supplier, pretending to be a pilot who lost his uniform during a layover, and is referred to a local vendor where he is fitted for a new pilot uniform, with the cost being deducted from his next paycheck, which, of course, does not exist Now. Outfitted in full Pan Am gear, frank finds it much easier to cash his forged checks, since at the time, as we mentioned, pilots were held in such high regard that no one would ever question him. Soon, frank has enough cash to book himself a luxury hotel suite, where he also learns that airline employees can get up to $300 in paycheck advances from the hotel itself.

Ashley: 32:32

This is also back in the day where you didn't need to like write a follow-up phone number on your check in case it bounced Like it would take a while for checks to cash. You could just cash it and get money immediately. There was just trust there that the piece of paper you were handing over was actually connected to money.

Remi: 32:50

And I almost feel like we need to explain what a check is. We don't use checks in modern day society. I have personally never written a check in my entire life, but it was basically a slip of bank paper given to you, attached to your account, where you could write out an amount as well as who you were writing that amount out to, and it could be cash later on. This is not really used today, though checks are still available, so just wanted to throw that out there. Have you ever written a check? I have never written a check, not once in my entire life, or had to balance a checkbook.

Ashley: 33:34

Yes, I know how to balance a checkbook. I don't do it anymore. I haven't done it in a long time, but I have written checks, even fairly recently. I had to write a check to Multnomah County for our art tax fee just in April.

Remi: 33:51

After finding out that he can get $300 in paycheck advances from the hotel, frank begins to forge Pan Am paychecks, which proved to be even more lucrative than his original scam.

Remi: 34:04

Frank soon discovers that he can also cash his forged checks directly at airports. But during his first attempt, frank is mistaken for an actual pilot and ends up riding in the jump seat of a departing Pan Am flight, while on layover that night Frank sleeps with a stewardess, losing his virginity in the process, which he calls the best first date ever. Sometime later, after coming to the realization that women love a man in uniform, frank flirts with a bank teller played in a small cameo by Elizabeth Banks who unknowingly shares insider details about how checks are made and processed. Frank uses this information and buys himself an MICR encoder, which is a machine used to print the magnetic routing numbers found at the bottom of checks. With the encoder, frank begins manipulating routing numbers, opening up new bank accounts and cashing forged checks, which are then rerouted to another branch across the country, giving Frank at least two weeks before the fraud is eventually detected.

Ashley: 35:17

I'm pretty sure this is even way more lucrative and intense than how it's even depicted in the autobiography.

Remi: 35:26

The scale and complexity of Frank's scheme eventually catches the attention of Agent Carl Hanrity and the FBI, who trace Frank's location back to the Tropicana Motel in Hollywood, which I used to drive by pretty regularly back when I lived in Burbank. When Carl arrives at Frank's room, however, Frank manages to pull a fast one on old Agent Hanreddy in a scene that reminds me a little bit of those old Bugs Bunny and Elmer Fudd cartoons from back in the 1950s.

Catch Me If You Can Clip: 36:03

That's the new IBM Selectric. Put your hands on your head. It's a print type in five seconds. Shut up, Pop out the ball. You know he's got over 200 checks here. Hands on your head, he's drafting. He even has little payroll envelopes. Put it down. Put it down, drop it. Relax, you're late. All right, my name's Alan Barry Allen, united States Secret Service. Your boy out the window. My partner has him in custody. I don't know what you're talking about.

Remi: 36:35

You think the fbi are the only ones on this guy. I mean, come on, come on, he's dabbling in government checks here. Been following a paper trail on this guy for months now. Quick side note here barry allen is the real name of the dc superhero the flash, in case anyone was wondering.

Ashley: 36:46

And you're telling me that the FBI is so invested of finding this 19-year-old who's just cashing a couple fraudulent checks, so much so that they're going to just show up at his hotel wielding a gun, pointing it at his face, acting like he just killed 50 people.

Remi: 37:05

They did not know he was at the hotel. They were tracing the checks back to various locations and this was the last location where a check was cashed, so they were simply going there to investigate and found out that he was at the hotel when they went to investigate so went up to the room and Frank pulled this again confidence scheme, acting like he was another investigator who had gotten there before Hanredi did.

Ashley: 37:35

Either way, this isn't the kind of crime that's gonna cause people to pull their guns out and threaten to kill someone over.

Remi: 37:43

After confidently lying his way out of the motel room along with all of the evidence, frank makes his escape, just as Agent Hanrity realizes that he's been had. But at least he knows what Frank's face looks like now, in the days that follow, frank notices that his Pan Am escapades have finally made the papers. So, after watching Sean Connery play James Bond in Dr no, frank celebrates by buying himself the exact same suit and car he had seen in the film, while adopting a much more polished and suave persona. This leads to a random and, frankly, unnecessary scene where Frank hooks up with a high-end prostitute played by Jennifer Garner, which ends in Frank writing her a $1,000 check to pay for services which obviously she won't be able to cash.

Ashley: 38:46

So the reason why this is in here is throughout his whole public speaking career, Frank maintained that he never conned a single individual or small business, except for this sex worker, and in earlier interviews he tells this story in a way that makes him seem just kind of like this guy. That is just a sex machine and he's joking about it and it's really gross how he talks about it. But I think that's why it's in there. It was something that he talked about a lot in his early public appearances.

Remi: 39:23

In the film he is very adamant about going down to the hotel lobby to cash a check to get her some actual physical money. But Jennifer Garner's character is the one who insists that he write her a check because he can write a check for a larger amount of money than he would be able to get at the front desk. So in the end, according to the film, it's her ideas, not Frank's. That Christmas, while Carl is working late at FBI headquarters, he receives an unexpected phone call from Frank. Hello. Barry Allen Secret Service.

Catch Me If You Can Clip: 40:10

I've been trying to track you down now for the last couple of hours. What do you want? I wanted to apologize for what happened out in Los Angeles. Uh-uh, uh-uh, no, no, you don't apologize to me. Do you always work on Christmas Eve?

Frank Abagnale Jr.: 40:25

Carl, I volunteered, so men with families could go home early.

Catch Me If You Can Clip: 40:32

You look like you were wearing a wedding ring out in Los Angeles. I thought maybe you had a family, no, no family.

Frank Abagnale Jr.: 40:40

You want to talk to me? Let's talk face to face.

Catch Me If You Can Clip: 40:45

All right. I have my suite at the Stuyvesant Arms room 3113.

Remi: 40:54

In the morning I leave for Las Vegas for the weekend, and I just wanted to add that Frank gives his real hotel room number and address to Carl during this scene. But of course Carl doesn't believe him, because why would Frank give him that information voluntarily? After the call, carl begins to suspect that the person they've been chasing may be a juvenile, so begins to investigate various reports of underage runaways. This eventually leads the FBI to Frank's mother, where they are able to confirm that the forger they've been tracking is in actuality a 17-year-old who has already cashed out $1.3 million in fraudulent checks. We then cut to Frank's new residence at the Riverbend Apartments in Atlanta, georgia, where a lively party is currently underway. During the festivities, one of Frank's party guests is injured, so Frank visits the hospital later that night to check in on them. While there, frank meets a nervous young nurse with a mouthful of braces named Brenda Strong, played by Amy Adams, whose character kind of looks like that creepy little girl from Finding Nemo who kept obnoxiously tapping on the glass in the dentist's office.

Ashley: 42:17

That's what exactly popped in my mind.

Remi: 42:20

for some reason, After flirting with Brenda, frank claims that he is a doctor and casually asks if the hospital is currently hiring. Soon after, frank forges himself a diploma from Harvard Medical School, along with an impressive resume, and lands himself a position as an ER supervisor for the uneventful midnight to 8am shift. Under the alias of Dr Connors, frank gets by by memorizing medical jargon he sees on television, which leads us to a scene which I have quoted for many, many years, but nobody ever seems to get the reference.

Catch Me If You Can Clip: 43:02

Dr Harris yes, do you concur? Concur with what, sir? With what Dr Ashland just said? Do you concur? Concur with what, sir? With what Dr Ashland just said, do you concur? Oh well, it was a bicycle accident, the boy told us. So you concur.

To Die For Trailer : 43:20

Concur. I think we should take an x-ray, then stitch him out and put him in a walking cast. Very good Dr.

Catch Me If You Can Clip: 43:29

Ashton, very good. Well, you don't seem to have much need for me, carry on.

Ashley: 43:37

And when Frank talked about his quote unquote time as a doctor, he did say that he learned medical jargon by watching TV and reading books. And that's what he would do. He would go in and just ask everyone around him like what would you do? What would you do? What would you do? All right, I concur.

Remi: 43:56

One evening during an overnight shift at the hospital, frank and Brenda become romantically involved after she reveals she's had her braces removed. Reveals she's had her braces removed Side note here to get the performance he wanted from Amy Adams during her kissing scene, director Steven Spielberg told her to imagine that she was starving and that Leonardo DiCaprio was a cheeseburger.

Ashley: 44:21

I can't think of a more intimidating person I would have to kiss on screen than DiCaprio. I would be petrified.

Remi: 44:28

I don't have a clip of the scene, but if I did, you could see that she is literally trying to eat his face off in the scene. It's pretty hilarious. Amy Adams is underutilized and really, really great in this movie. Meanwhile, carl Hanrity pays a visit to Frank Sr, hoping to gather more information. Though Frank Sr is uncooperative, hanreddy manages to spot a letter from Frank Jr sitting on the coffee table and memorizes the return address.

Remi: 45:02

Back in Atlanta, frank learns that Brenda was disowned by her parents after having an abortion two years earlier. Wanting to help, frank offers to speak with her father and ask for her hand in marriage so that Brenda can regain her family's approval by marrying a doctor. We then cut to New Orleans, where Frank meets Brenda's parents, roger Strong, played by Martin Sheen, and Carol Strong, played by Nancy Linehan. The Strong family is devoutly religious and deeply traditional, but Frank effortlessly charms their socks off, since Roger is an attorney. Frank also offhandedly mentions that he had passed the bar exam several years ago and has been considering leaving the medical field in order to pursue law again.

Ashley: 45:55

Man, the amount of student debt this guy must have. Going to medical school and law school Woof.

Remi: 46:02

Roger is impressed with Frank's reputable facade and by the end of the evening he has given Frank his blessing to marry Brenda and even offers him a job working as his assistant prosecutor. However, in order to secure his soon-to-be father-in-law's offer of employment, frank must first take the Louisiana State Bar Exam, which he miraculously passes without cheating or using any other methods of deception. Ashley, this has to be bullshit.

Ashley: 46:35

In his autobiography he claimed he took it three times, passed on the third time and I think he estimated it took him three months to pass the bar exam, with two fails and one pass. One of the ways that this claim was debunked is that at the time he claimed to have passed the bar exam in Louisiana, it was only offered every six months. So if his claim was true, it would have taken him a minimum of a year and a half to pass it.

Remi: 47:02

This is one of the big things that I remember seeing in the film and thinking immediately bullshit. I have a lot of friends who have gone to law school and had to take the bar exam and there is no fucking way that this guy, who has literally no experience, could have somehow gotten all the information memorized to pass this within what you're saying three months. That's ridiculous.

Ashley: 47:30

Even passing it on your own, without getting specialized education, I feel like only someone who's a genius could do. Law is an area of study that is vast. Criminal law is very different than civil law, which is very different than property law, which is very different than business law. But the bar exam has it all. So you have to have a little bit of knowledge in all of these areas and have that all memorized to pass this written exam.

Remi: 47:59

After passing the bar, Frank continued watching television shows to study legal tactics and courtroom proceedings, giving Frank just enough know-how to stumble his way through a routine preliminary hearing.

Catch Me If You Can Clip: 48:14

This is a photograph of the defendant's signature on a canceled check. Now here is an enlargement of that same signature, which matches the signature on the letters that he wrote to Mrs Simon, which discussed the possibility of defrauding the great state of Louisiana. Your Honor, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, this is irrefutable evidence that the defendant is in fact lying.

Frank Abagnale Jr.: 48:43

Mr Connors, this is a preliminary hearing. There is no defendant, there is no jury. It's just me, son. What in the hell is wrong with you?

Remi: 49:05

Brenda and Frank have also both moved in with Brenda's parents during this time, with the Strong family fully accepting Frank as one of their own. Things finally come to a head at Frank and Brenda's engagement party when Carl shows up uninvited along with a team of FBI agents. Panicked and cornered, frank quickly pulls Brenda into their bedroom and confesses everything. After telling her that they need to leave immediately, frank reveals two large suitcases filled to the brim with cash which had been stashed just above their bed frame. As Brenda stands there utterly dumbfounded and frozen in disbelief, frank grabs the suitcases, tells her to meet him at the Miami airport in two days, then jumps out the window and disappears into the night.

Ashley: 50:00

What a tragic end to such a happy evening.

Remi: 50:04

When Frank arrives at the airport two days later for he and Brenda's proposed rendezvous, he spots several federal agents already there waiting for him. With his escape plan compromised, frank does what he does best and decides to improvise local universities, posing as a Pan Am pilot, claiming that Pan Am is launching a future stewardess flight crew program, and he will be visiting nearby college campuses to select eight potential candidates. After making his selections, frank, accompanied by eight college co-eds who all somehow got their own Pan Am stewardess uniforms from somewhere, casually stroll through the Miami airport right past the federal agents, who don't even notice Frank because they just can't keep their eyes off of all the lovely ladies. Several months later, frank has expanded his Czech counterfeiting operation to South America, australia, egypt and Singapore, the only difference this time being that Frank is no longer forging fake checks but is now printing real ones using a massive industrial machine. Hanredi is eventually able to track this machine's origins back to Mont-Richard, france, where Carl finds Frank operating the enormous check printing machine alone in an abandoned warehouse on Christmas Eve 1967. After a heart-to-heart with Carl, frank surrenders and is finally arrested outside by two dozen French police officers. Side note here the real Frank Abagnale Jr makes a cameo in this scene as the French officer who arrests Leonardo DiCaprio.

Remi: 51:54

We then cut back to Frank being extradited back to America on a commercial airline, where he is informed by Carl that his father, frank Sr, passed away while Frank was on the lam. This news devastates Frank and he is allowed to take a moment to compose himself in the plane's lavatory as they make their descent into LaGuardia. However, when Frank is gone for a suspiciously long amount of time, carl and the other agents bust through the door only to discover that Frank has mysteriously vanished. Bust through the door only to discover that Frank has mysteriously vanished. It turns out that Frank somehow managed to loosen the screws around the toilet's paneling, allowing him to slip into the lower section of the aircraft and escape through an opening in the landing gear compartment just as the plane touched down. During his escape, frank makes it all the way to his mother's house, only to see through a window that she has remarried and now has a young daughter with her new husband, played by James Broland. Moments later, frank is surrounded by federal agents and arrested, yet again on the front lawn on.

Remi: 53:10

Frank is convicted and sentenced to 12 years in Atlanta's maximum security prison and kept primarily in isolation. At the judge's request, the following year, carl pays Frank a visit on Christmas, continuing their tradition even while Frank is incarcerated. Carl brings along a case he's been working on and Frank is able to identify subtle details in a forged check which ultimately helps Carl in his investigation. Because of Frank's expertise in identifying counterfeit checks, he is eventually given a position working with the FBI's Financial Crimes Division to serve out the remainder of his sentence as an employee of the federal government, of his sentence as an employee of the federal government. Just before the closing credits, we're told that Frank Abagnale Jr has been married for 26 years, he has three sons and lives a quiet life in the Midwest. Since his release from prison in 1974, frank has helped the FBI capture some of the world's most elusive check forgers and counterfeiters and is considered one of the world's most foremost authorities on bank fraud and forgery. Frank has also designed many of the secure checks that bank and Fortune 500 companies use every day For his services. These companies pay Frank Abagnale Jr millions of dollars a year. Frank and Carl remain close friends to this day.

Remi: 54:32

And that was Steven Spielberg's. Catch Me, if you Can. So, ashley, do you have any initial thoughts on the Steven Spielberg story?

Ashley: 54:43

So this probably isn't too surprising, since it's a running theme, but I have seen this movie, but not in a very, very, very long time. I don't even think. When I saw it for the first time, I realized that it was quote unquote, inspired by a true story, but I do remember enjoying it and what you described. To me this seems like a very fun, intriguing, captivating movie, and I do recall that Tom Hanks and Leo both do a superb job in their respective roles. What was your experience re-watching this movie? I know you've seen it before.

Remi: 55:17

I enjoyed this movie. I have always enjoyed this movie and I agree with Spielberg when he said this is a light-hearted change for him. This is not a dark, serious film. This is probably lighter than the majority of the films we will be discussing this season, actually, so it was refreshing in that regard. But even when I watched it back in the day when I was much, much younger, I remember thinking this has a smell of bullshit to it. There's no way that this guy was able to pull off all of these elaborate cons. Which begs the question Ashley, do you think it is okay for a person to fake it until they make it as far as a job goes?

Ashley: 56:05

You know that's a tough question. On the one hand, my short answer is yes, I think a lot of people, especially when they're applying for a job and trying to seek employment. You are putting your best foot forward. You're going to try to exaggerate your accomplishments, make yourself seem like the most qualified candidate. You're going to say things like, yes, I'm proficient in Excel, when really your experience is you don't know the ins and outs. That's just one example that pops into my head. So I think things like that, where you're exaggerating your qualifications for a bit, when it's an area that you know, if you get the job, you can probably learn the requisite skills you need pretty quickly, Do I think it's okay to bake it until you make it for a job when people's lives are literally on the line, such as a doctor, a pilot and a lawyer? Absolutely not. That's reprehensible.

Remi: 57:03

And I totally agree there I have done what many of us out there have done and lied on my resume or exaggerated skills and things like that in order to get my foot in the door. But most of those were very ground level positions that I would be getting my foot in the door at. So if I messed up and didn't do a good job, I would get fired and they would just be able to hire someone else With the jobs that Frank was impersonating a doctor or a lawyer or teacher or pilot for that matter. If he fucked up, people's lives would have been jeopardized no-transcript.

Remi: 58:15

Well, with that, let's get into the release of Catch Me If you Can. After publishing his autobiography in 1980, Frank Abagnale Jr began telling audiences that he had once been on the FBI's top 10 most wanted fugitives list.

Ashley: 58:34

Not only that, he said he was the youngest to ever be on the list.

Remi: 58:39

This claim eventually made its way into the marketing for Catch Me If you Can leading up to the film's release. Due to the media attention surrounding the film, reporters began to inevitably investigate the legitimacy of Abagnale's past statements, and it quickly became clear that there was never any record of him actually appearing on the FBI's Most Wanted list. Eventually, abagnale admitted on his own website that his previous claims on the matter had been untrue, and that is a sign of things to come. Dreamworks was careful to market the film as inspired by a true story in an effort to avoid the kind of controversy other recent films had faced, including A Beautiful Mind in 2001 and the Hurricane in 1999, which both took significant liberties in their adaptations of the real events.

Remi: 59:40

Catch Me If you Can was released on December 25, 2002, earning just over $30 million during its opening weekend, finishing second behind the Lord of the Rings, the Two Towers. The film went on to gross $164.6 million in North America and $187.5 million internationally, for a worldwide total of $352.1 million, earning back its $52 million budget more than seven times over. Catch Me If you Can ended the year as the 11th highest grossing film of 2002, just behind Minority Report, another Spielberg film, which was ranked 10th. With help from a strong performance by Leonardo DiCaprio as real-life wonderkid con artist Frank Abagnale, steven Spielberg crafts a film that's stylish, breezily Awards one for Christopher Walken in the Best Supporting Actor category and another for John Williams for Best Original Score, which I failed to mention at the beginning, but the score of this film was done by John Williams, who also did the score for Jaws, et, close, encounters of the Third Kind, you name it basically every movie from your childhood John Williams did the score for and nothing for leo, because the academy hates him catch me if you can.

Remi: 1:01:25

Also earned four bafta nominations, including best adapted screenplay and a win for best actor in a supporting role for christopher walken. Walken also won outstanding Performance by a Male Actor in a Supporting Role at the SAG Awards, while DiCaprio received the film's only Golden Globe nomination for Best Actor in a Motion Picture Drama, but unfortunately lost out to Jack Nicholson for his portrayal as the cantankerous old geezer in About Schmidt. Spielberg and Hanks worked together three more times throughout the years, collaborating on 2004's the Terminal, which was also written by Jeff Nathanson, as well as Bridge of Spies in 2015 and the Post in 2017. I have not seen Bridge of Spies or the Post.

Ashley: 1:02:16

Bridge of Spies is on our list. I believe I used to have a Bridge of.

Remi: 1:02:18

Spies coffee mug. That Bridge of Spies is on our list. I believe I used to have a Bridge of Spies coffee mug that was given to me by a studio, and that's about as much as I know about the movie. A musical adaptation of Catch Me If you Can, premiered at the Fifth Avenue Theater in Seattle Washington in July 2009, and officially opened on Broadway at the Neil Simon Theater on April 10, and officially opened on Broadway at the Neil Simon Theatre on April 10, 2011.

Verdict: 1:02:50

Live in living color let me take you for a ride. Yes, I'm live in living color color, so sit back and let me be your TV guy.

Remi: 1:03:10

The musical was nominated for four Tony Awards that same year, including Best Musical, along with a win for Norbert Leo Butz for Best Performance by a Leading Actor in a Musical, and that was Steven Spielberg's. Catch Me If you Can.

Ashley: 1:03:30

What a whirlwind and actually a surprisingly smooth pre and post-production story.

Remi: 1:03:37

Yeah, Spielberg doesn't fuck around. He is not one to have a lot of drama behind his productions Besides Jaws, of course, I think that's one of the only ones and he genuinely seems like a good dude with good intentions behind the films that he's making. I do not think Spielberg is nefarious in any way he's making.

Ashley: 1:04:03

I do not think Spielberg is nefarious in any way. Well, speaking of someone who is not nefarious, shall we talk about the real Frank Abagnale Jr.

Remi: 1:04:09

Yes, I am very, very anxious to find out what, if any of this man's tall tales are actually true.

Verdict: 1:04:17

You don't know how to tell the truth yet. Frank William Abagnale Jr was a sensation by early 1981.

Ashley: 1:04:46

The 31-year-old was a highly sought-out crime prevention speaker in the banking chamber, of commerce and college circuits. He traveled around the country lecturing over 200 times a year and drew massive crowds. He charged over $2,000 for some events, which is over $8,000 adjusted for inflation. His recently published autobiography, catch Me, if you Can, rapidly gained steam on bestsellers lists and there was even a movie in the works starring Dustin Hoffman. Sellers lists, and there was even a movie in the works starring Dustin Hoffman. He was even featured on the Tonight Show, not once, not twice, but five times, and for good reason. He had a remarkable tale to tell, one that supposedly netted his consulting company upwards of $35 million per year.

Ashley: 1:05:37

Frank ran away from home when he was 16 years old and embarked on a life of deception. He impersonated a Pan American Airlines pilot, worked as a chief resident pediatrician at Cobb County General Hospital, passed the Louisiana bar exam and worked at the Baton Rouge Attorney General's office and taught college courses at Brigham Young University All these achievements by the time he was 21 years old and without any schooling or real credentials. He also cashed over $2.5 million in counterfeit checks across 26 countries before he was finally apprehended by the FBI after a years-long cat-and-mouse chase. Another popular exploit involved being the youngest person to ever escape from the Atlanta federal penitentiary.

Frank Abagnale Jr: 1:06:29

During my stay in the federal prison system, I escaped three times. On one particular occasion, I impersonated a prison inspector and walked out the front door of the prison. On one particular occasion I impersonated a prison inspector and walked out the front door of the institution, but I eventually served my time.

Ashley: 1:06:51

Frank's other crowd-pleasing stories included traveling across Europe with eight aspiring flight attendants and evading federal authorities by escaping through an airline toilet hatch after he was extradited. He also liked to sprinkle a bit of sexuality into his speeches from time to time to really get the crowd going.

Frank Abagnale Jr.: 1:07:06

Always the typical questions at the pool. So, doc, where'd you go to medical school? Columbia University in New York? Where'd you serve your internship? Harvard Children's Hospital out in LA Once in a while, when the guys would come by hey Paul, hey doc, look at my leg. I don't know what I did to it. Look at this, paul, I can't examine your leg. You need to go to your doctor and have him look at that. When the girls came by, I always gave them a thorough examination. I was young but not stupid.

Remi: 1:07:35

I just want to point out that this is a man pretending to be a doctor who is examining women.

Ashley: 1:07:43

And when he gave that talk, it was in 2017, so this man was well into his 60s and still making jokes of him essentially sexually assaulting women and getting a rousing laugh from audiences women and getting a rousing laugh from audiences. But despite his criminal past, frank prided himself on two things. First, he claimed his wrongdoings were victimless, since he never targeted individuals or small businesses and had since repaid everything he stole. Second, he now committed himself to a life of helping others detect and avoid being crime victims, a mission he started after he was approached by the FBI in 1975 and offered early parole in exchange for generating crime prevention materials, policies and seminars. There was just one small problem Nobody knew the real Frank Abagnale and nearly everything that came out of his mouth was a lie.

Remi: 1:08:50

I also just feel like I need to point out that when he says victimless crimes, he is referring to the businesses that he worked for, none of the airline passengers or patients.

Ashley: 1:09:06

Much, much, much later in his life. He does say that he had quote unquote victims and it was the people he deceived that found out about these and were disappointed or hurt about his deception. But never does he mention any of these like quote unquote patients he supposedly treated or anything like that. It's just the people that knew him and found out he wasn't really a doctor and they were like upset with him. And those are who he now conceptualizes as victims, but not in that word.

Remi: 1:09:41

So not like any patients he misdiagnosed, or any clients that he may have given the wrong advice to, or even any passengers that happened to be on the plane when he was in the jump seat and something could have happened to the pilot.

Ashley: 1:09:55

You know. No, he doesn't consider any of those people victims, and there might be a reason why because they don't exist. But more on that soon. Frank Abagnale Jr was born in the Bronx, New York, on April 17th 1948. His parents, Frank Sr and Paulette, purchaseda home in Bronxville right before he was born and sold it when their marriage started to deteriorate when Frank was 12. Both parents remarried shortly after their divorce was finalized in January 1964.

Ashley: 1:10:30

It was unclear when Frank's proclivity for criminal behavior began, but the 16-year-old had already dropped out of school and been accused of theft when he enlisted in the Navy a few days before Christmas 1964. His military career was short-lived as he was discharged two months later. Within the month he was arrested for forgery and vagrancy related to passing small checks at several local businesses. To avoid prosecution, he decided to flee to California. To fund his transcontinental road trip, Frank stole a car, a bright yellow Mustang, that he brazenly drove around town for the next few days. He cashed a few more checks at several local businesses and was gone by the time. Police went searching for him on January 4th 1965.

Remi: 1:11:26

I feel like a yellow Mustang is possibly the worst car you could be driving if you're trying to keep a low profile.

Ashley: 1:11:36

Well, if you think that, imagine what the hotel employees thought when, two weeks later, he drove that yellow mustang, now bedazzled with the word bandit and an image of a masked man with a pistol on the side what he pulled that car into a motel in eureureka, California. He then tried to open a checking account, but bank administrators suspected the check he gave them was fraudulent and alerted local authorities.

Ashley: 1:12:14

Police quickly tracked him to the motel and alerted the nearest FBI officer after discovering that he claimed to be a US Border Patrol agent to secure a federal discount on the already cheap motel room. He was arrested and charged with impersonating a federal employee and interstate transportation of a stolen car on June 21, 1965. Frank's father posted his bail and agreed to take custody of the teen on July 2. The Abagnales flew back to New York together, which was likely the first time Frank Jr set foot on an airplane. He must have been infatuated with air travel, since he was wearing a pilot uniform when he was arrested for forgery on July 15th. Frank admitted to his state and federal crimes and was sentenced to three years for forgery a week later.

Ashley: 1:13:12

He was paroled from Great Meadow Correctional Institution on May 8th 1967. Despite still having a pending federal case, he was back to writing fraudulent checks within the week and fled to Massachusetts. He was again arrested for larceny and auto theft on June 20, 1967, this time near Boston's Logan Airport. This location is significant, as he would later tell a wild tale involving him posing as a security guard in front of a fake safety security box he set up where unsuspecting businesses dropped their daily earnings. Frank then claimed he brazenly asked two state troopers for help carrying the heavy safe to his car. After his arrest in Boston, he spent little over a year in jail and was paroled again on December 24, 1968. He was back to his check-writing ways three days later. Three days later, he was never prosecuted for impersonating an officer or driving a car across state lines, since the federal government declined to pursue the case under the wrongful impression that he was still under strict supervision in New York, which highlights the lack of communication between federal and state agencies.

Ashley: 1:14:36

21-year-old Frank was a free man for the first time in nearly four years. And what did he do with his newfound freedom? Well, he dusted off his pilot's uniform and passed himself off as a co-pilot for Transworld Airlines, which I'm going to refer to as TWA from here on out. He did this to secure a jump seat on a Delta Airlines flight to Miami on New Year's Day 1968, which is basically like an open seat for pilots where they can just like, come on and travel for free. Even though there was a spare seat in the cockpit, frank made his way to an empty seat in the back of the plane, most likely to avoid anyone who might ask him some tough questions. For example what type of plane do you fly?

Frank Abagnale Jr.: 1:15:30

Now. So tell me, young man, what type of equipment are you on? Now, airline people have a lot of jargon for things and one of them is they never call a plane a plane or an aircraft. They call it equipment. And what type of equipment you're on meant what type of plane do you fly? Back then, a DC-8, a 707. Of course I didn't know that and I thought what type of equipment? The only equipment I'm on is this stool. They must mean what type of equipment is on the planes I fly. So I thought well, they've got the wings and they've got the engine. They always had a sticker on the engine who manufactured the engine? So I said, yes, general Electric. All three pilots kind of just stopped eating and leaned over. The captain said oh really, what do you fly? A washing machine. So I knew I'd say the wrong thing.

Remi: 1:16:14

Out the door I went. The way he talks is sort of like a stand-up comedian doing a routine.

Ashley: 1:16:23

I watched so many different talks that this man gave, telling you he is a very engaging speaker, but it has a very different tone to it when you realize that everything he is saying is fake and it is a just rehearsed speech. His speeches are all the same speech.

Remi: 1:17:00

His speeches are all the same. Well, I was going to say the way he is saying. It is a lot like someone who is telling a story at a party or something like that, but he is in a situation where no one can ask follow-up questions to him.

Ashley: 1:17:12

During that flight to Miami on New Year's Day 1968, Frank joined a group of flight attendants in the galley and turned on the charm. He invited them all to dinner, but everyone declined, since it was after midnight by the time the plane landed. He was particularly persistent with young Paula Parks, who accepted the offer, not wanting to be rude but dragged her attendant roommate along with her. Accepted the offer, not wanting to be rude, but dragged her attendant roommate along with her. The trio bought some wieners from a hot dog stand and strolled the streets while Frank entertained them with his wild stories. Paula woke up the next morning to an urgent call from the front desk. Waiting for her were two dozen roses, a five-pound box of chocolates and a card from Frank asking her out to lunch.

Remi: 1:18:03

Five pounds is absurd.

Ashley: 1:18:06

She again agreed to go with her friend, since they had a few hours to spare before their return flight to New Orleans, where the women were based. Paula reluctantly gave Frank her number but didn't make more specific plans to meet again soon. So imagine her surprise when he was waiting for her. When she landed, in the same flashy convertible he drove around in Miami. He claimed he had a few days off, but since she didn't, the two went their separate ways, unbeknownst to Pam, frank likely made up some sort of story to get his hands on her work schedule, since he always seemed to just turn up whenever she landed for her next several flights, including when she went back to NOLA a few weeks after their first meeting. This time Paula had a few days off and planned to visit her parents in Baton Rouge. She accepted Frank's transportation offer as she thought the road trip would be a good opportunity to make it clear that there wasn't going to be any sort of romantic relationship between them. This time he seemed to take the hint.

Ashley: 1:19:15

Just as he had with the flight attendants, frank bombarded Paula's parents with stories of his life as a TWA pilot, which he said was a temporary gig until he could find a job working with kids, where he could utilize his degree in social work from Cornell University. Paula's parents, john and Charlotte Parks, adored Frank and told him to not be a stranger once the evening came to a close. Days later, paula got a call from her mom saying the co-pilot was going to be staying with them for a bit. Turns out, frank turned up on their doorstep shortly after Paula left and asked to take Charlotte up on her offer for fishing lessons. The lessons turned to drinks, drinks turned to dinner, and dinner ended with an offer to stay the night, and then he just didn't leave. Being the good southern Christian family they were, the Parks wanted to help the recently furloughed pilot pursue a career that he actually wanted. Over the next few weeks. They gave him a set of keys, let him help himself to whatever food they had in their fridge and introduced him to members of their community.

Remi: 1:20:27

This guy is a homeless person crashing on their couch, basically.

Ashley: 1:20:34

Oh no, he was crashing in Paula's childhood bedroom.

Remi: 1:20:38

Ah, even better.

Ashley: 1:20:40

Well, frank did repay them by taking them out to fancy dinners and often bought home fresh flowers for Charlotte. Paula expressed her doubts and apprehensions about the mysterious visitor. But they fell onto fears. And it wasn't just her parents who adored Frank either. He grew close to Paula's 18-year-old brother, john, and even started dating her cousin. One person the Parks introduced Frank to was Reverend Underwood, who started reaching out to community contacts to help Frank secure a job befitting of his Cornell degree.

Ashley: 1:21:16

A few days after he interviewed at Louisiana State University, the Reverend got a call saying that although Frank was an entertaining and smooth talker, it was abundantly clear that he didn't have the knowledge or skills that he should have if he actually had a degree in social work, psychology or really anything involving children. The Reverend didn't have to do much digging to learn Frank hadn't attended Cornell at all. His suspicions about Frank were further fueled by the fact that, since he arrived in Baton Rouge, a series of bad checks had been passed around to some small family businesses, including one owned by the father of John Park's best friend, another youth who developed a friendship with Frank. Some of the checks actually came from the Parks' own checkbook. Frank Underwood's next call was to the TWA hub in New Orleans. They knew exactly who Frank was, but not because he was an employee. He actually matched the description of a man who had been singing, hanging Around Airports in a pilot's uniform for the past six weeks trying to cash fraudulent paychecks. The Reverend immediately called the police and braced himself to inform the Parks of the betrayal. The man they had grown so fond of had been stealing money from all three family members, including the 18-year-old, for weeks. So all those dinners he took them on, all those flowers he brought home to Charlotte, he paid for them with funds he stole from them.

Ashley: 1:23:01

A few days after his arrest, on February 14th 1969, franks moved out of the Parkses and used a stolen check to pay the deposit for a nice new apartment.

Ashley: 1:23:13

He initially tried to keep up his pilot's ruse when he was arrested, but admitted to his deception after he was confronted with the information the police already had from TWA. He was charged with forgery and theft. As soon as the police called Westchester, new York, and learned all about his criminal record, since he didn't yet know the Parks were aware of his transgressions, he had the audacity to call them and ask for money for a bail and an attorney. Four days later he admitted to having stolen checks but claimed all the ones he cashed were done with the Parks' permission. The Baton Rouge District Attorney's Office the same agency he later claimed he worked for for about a year added another charge of possession of stolen checks. So we're kind of seeing a theme here he's making up these lies later in life, but actually linking them to events in his life getting arrested in Boston, getting arrested in Baton Rouge and claiming he's working for these places.

Remi: 1:24:21

Yeah, but the lies he's making up make him sound cool. This guy fucking sucks at everything he's doing and his lies are really really easily disprovable.

Ashley: 1:24:34

Oh for sure, and we'll get to that. It's just interesting to me that he is sprinkling in his connection with these agencies. There's like a very, very, very teeny sand grain of truth in there, but he's just changing the narrative in a way that makes him look like a hero and not like just a scummy criminal that he actually is Desperate to avoid prison. Frank reached out to his only ally, reverend Underwood. He successfully appealed to the man's pastoral ways by claiming he loved the parks, never meant to hurt them, wanted to change and desperately needed treatment. The Reverend even contacted Frank's parents and asked them to write letters of support for their son.

Ashley: 1:25:21

Frank pled guilty to forgery and theft in June 1969. Although he was facing a 10-year prison sentence, reverend Underwood's advocacy and maybe Frank's own statement about how remorseful he felt for his crimes was enough to escape the slammer. On June 17, 1969, he was sentenced to 12 years of probation in order to pay restitution and seek psychiatric treatment. He expressed his gratitude by immediately fleeing the country and never repaying back a single dime he stole from anyone in Baton Rouge.

Remi: 1:26:00

Yeah, that checks out.

Ashley: 1:26:02

Frank showed up in Sweden in mid-August 1969. After initially landing in France, passing off a few hot checks and stealing a car, he targeted another kind couple who let the grifter stay with them for about a week Before leaving. He gave his new friends a check in exchange for cash, but asked them to wait a few days before they deposited it to allow time for his funds to be transferred over the check bounced. On August 22nd he showed up at a small car repair shop in his pilot's uniform, in a damaged Fiat with two other Swedes he recently befriended. The owner of the shop. Jan Hillman agreed to loan Frank a car. While the Fiat was being prepared. He even let Frank test drive it for a few days before the deal was finalized.

Ashley: 1:26:56

Come Monday afternoon Hillman received a call from one of Frank's traveling companions who warned the shop owner that Frank wasn't returning. Hillman quickly alerted the police, but Frank and the vehicle were already on a ferry to Denmark. He was arrested in France two weeks later. There was no months-long evasion of European authorities or millions of dollars spent in counterfeit checks. In actuality, he pled guilty to theft and swindling and was sentenced to four months in prison on October 3, 1969. He spent three months in a French prison before he was extradited to Sweden. In his autobiography he claimed the conditions at the facility were so dire that he lost 90 pounds, but witnesses who testified against him in Sweden noticed no change in his physical appearance.

Remi: 1:27:53

That's a lot of weight for someone to drop A lot of weight for someone to drop.

Ashley: 1:27:57

It's something like he claimed he lost 90 pounds in four months and was like 109 pounds by the time he was extradited In all actuality if that was the case, he would have been on death's door, literally dying.

Remi: 1:28:15

Yeah, they would have been barely feeding him if he dropped that much weight.

Ashley: 1:28:19

He probably would have needed to be medically force fed. Frank was convicted of gross fraud by forgery on March 26, 1970 and sentenced to two months in prison. He was also ordered to pay restitution and would be deported and banned from entering Sweden for eight years. He tried to fight the deportation, but his appeal was denied in May 1970 due to his recidivism risk and lack of ties to the country. This was nothing more than a simple deportation. He wasn't extradited back to the United States since there was no extradition warrant out for him. He simply flew back to New York and walked off the plane. There were no agents he had to avoid by escaping out of toilet, something he repeated for years until aeronautical engineers proved it was impossible. After seeing the scene depicted in the movie.

Remi: 1:29:20

That was the first thing I thought was wait, you can just unscrew a toilet seat in an aircraft.

Ashley: 1:29:28

Also, the deportation is at odds with other claims Frank made throughout the years, such as that there were a dozen European nations fighting to get their hands on him, that he eluded Interpol and that he was put on the non-existent master thief list, which did not exist and has never existed. This is another claim that he admitted that he fabricated.

Remi: 1:29:58

So this was like the FBI's most wanted list, only specifically for thieves.

Ashley: 1:30:04

Yeah, he claimed that he was the youngest on the FBI's most wanted list. That's not something he's redacted. He also claimed that there was this quote unquote master thief list that he was on After. The FBI was like we never had a master thief list. He acknowledged that that was something that was fabricated.

Remi: 1:30:25

So much of this stuff can be easily disproven.

Ashley: 1:30:30

We will get there. Upon returning to the States, Frank embarked on a short-lived scam involving cashing fraudulent Pan Am paychecks.

Remi: 1:30:38

embarked on a short-lived scam involving cashing fraudulent Pan Am paychecks. Did this have anything to do with the?

Ashley: 1:30:46

$300 advance you could get from hotels. That was mentioned in the film. In this scheme he's just like faking paychecks. He's taking paychecks, making them look like Pan Am paychecks by kind of tweaking things and trying to cash them, and was somehow able to do it convincingly. So what he had talked about with the getting the advances is how he had described it later in his life. Airlines would kind of give you like a per diem and you would pay for something with your own money and be able to reimburse it and get paid back. So he would pay money with a fraudulent check, take it to Pan Am and get reimbursed for what he paid, and not just Pan Am any airline. I don't know if that's true or not. That's what he has claimed he did in his talks.

Remi: 1:31:33

So how much money was he supposedly getting from the airlines during this time?

Ashley: 1:31:40

He claimed he cashed $2.5 million, so that would be an exorbitant amount. Now, in actuality, for about three months in 1970, frank cashed 10 fraudulent Pan Am paychecks in North Carolina, texas, california and Utah. In total he netted about $11,200, which is adjusted for inflation today. Since these checks involved an airline, because he was making them out to look like they were paychecks given to him from Pan Am, them out to look like they were paychecks given to him from Pan Am, the crimes were under federal jurisdiction. This is likely. When Agent Shea, a primary inspiration behind Tom Hanks' character, learned about him, frank had another ruse going on. At this time, in the summer and fall of 1970, he was seen at several college campuses in Arizona posing as a Pan Am pilot, conducting interviews for a flight crew. Unlike how he depicted this scheme throughout his life and how it's described in the film, his recruiting efforts were shut down and never went past talking to a dozen potentially interested female co-eds. Disturbingly, though, he did perform physical exams on some of the women under the ruse that they were medically necessary to qualify.

Ashley: 1:33:09

Frank was arrested in a motel in Marietta, georgia, on November 2, 1970, the same city he later claimed to be a pediatric chief resident. Frank did manage to escape from jail while awaiting trial in Atlanta in early February 1970, but this escape was not from the highly secured Atlanta Penitentiary. In reality. He just walked out of county jail while deputies were processing paperwork in the booking area. He was swiftly apprehended and extradited back to Georgia. One last quick word here about Agent Shea. While he was no doubt involved in Frank's arrest around this point he doesn't appear to have had any more involvement with him, except for a chance run-in while Frank was giving a talk at a convention for FBI retirees in Kansas City in the 1980s.

Remi: 1:34:11

Oh, so they didn't meet up every year at Christmas?

Ashley: 1:34:16

Yeah, there was no decades-long relationship in which Frank viewed Shay as a father figure, but Shay died long before Frank truly started to exaggerate the nature of their relationship. This is how Frank described it during a Google talk in 2017.

Frank Abagnale Jr.: 1:34:37

My supervisor at the FBI. After I came out of prison I answered directly to him. He and I were friends for 30 years until his death. I've written five books on crime. The last book I wrote Stealing your Life. I dedicated that book to him and our 30-year relationship.

Remi: 1:34:53

I will say I had assumed that Tom Hanks's character was an amalgamation of several FBI agents who were attempting to get Frank at this time.

Ashley: 1:35:07

You're very clever because he is an amalgamation of two people.

Ashley: 1:35:11

The second we haven't been introduced to yet, but the first is this FBI agent Frank pled guilty to escape and check fraud on April 29, 1971.

Ashley: 1:35:23

This time he was sentenced to 10 years in prison and was sent to a federal penitentiary in Petersburg, virginia, but since there was no mandatory minimum imposed, he served about two years and then transferred his parole to Houston, texas, where he was supervised by Jim Blackmoon, the other muse for Tom Hanks' character in the film. Frank worked a few odd jobs at fast food restaurants and supermarkets before he set his sights on Camp Madison, a popular summer camp for kids in the Houston area. The proprietor of the camp was impressed by the furloughed Delta Airlines pilot and offered him a summer job running errands and shuttling the kids that only attended during the day program. Most of the teenage camp counselors were impressed by Frank, since he took them out to nightclubs and always paid for everything. But there was one young woman who wasn't impressed by his flirtatious ways. As luck would have it, her dad was a real Delta Airlines pilot and looked into the identity of Frank Abagnale the identity of Frank Abagnale.

Remi: 1:36:43

Yeah, I feel like anyone who heard this guy talking in any situation that was actually in the field that he was pretending to be in, or knew someone who was, would instantly be able to call bullshit on this. He's not very good at this.

Ashley: 1:36:54

I know, but how many airline pilots do you know? It's really bad luck for Frank that one of the camp counselors at this random children's summer camp actually had a dad who was a pilot.

Remi: 1:37:07

Touche.

Ashley: 1:37:08

And well, it wasn't long before his ruse was revealed. Before that happened, though, frank took advantage of the skills of a young graphic artist. He told the youth he was president of Delta's Pilots Club and wanted to improve the security of the ID cards, but he needed to test out some of his ideas first. The teenager made some impressive looking mock-ups for Frank to take back to his superiors. Frank took these cards, got a professional photo taken, merged the two and then just left. The camp coordinator linked Frank to some missing valuables as soon as he got word from the counselor's pilot father, who told him that Frank was not who he claimed to be. Frank was arrested by the end of August but was only ordered to pay restitution. Frank was arrested by the end of August, but was only ordered to pay restitution Not long after.

Ashley: 1:38:00

Frank called his parole officer and told him he secured a job at a children's home. Parole officer Blackmoon had prior experience at this same exact agency and knew that the work his supervisee claimed to be doing required an advanced degree that Frank didn't have. He showed up at the orphanage and found Frank in an office decorated with photos of him in a pilot's uniform, next to a framed phony master's degree. This is really bad. He tried to get a job at an orphanage, counseling and adopting out children. How fucked up is that. He instructed Frank to resign immediately but instead of violating the habitual offender, he gave him yet another chance at redemption. Frank briefly moved into Blackburn's garage and got a job at a security company. So I think this depiction of his parole officer, like taking him under his wing and letting him move in and giving him a second chance, is what's reflected in Tom Hanks' character of the FBI agent, like calling him up every Christmas and you know things like that.

Ashley: 1:39:21

Around September 1975, frank was hired by Aetna Life and Casualty and sent to a training program in Hartford, connecticut, to learn the basic skills needed to handle insurance claims. While there he cast four checks at Aetna's headquarters and was promptly fired. They eventually filed a civil suit that dragged on for years. Undeterred by unemployment, he registered his company Frank W Abagnale Associates a few months later. So now we are about to embark on the second saga of Frank Abagnale's life. Do you have any comments? Before we move on to that, what do you think about him so far?

Remi: 1:40:07

I mean he sucks in comparison to the film version, obviously, but like how long did he even get away with any of these crimes? It seems like anything that Frank tried, he was found out almost immediately.

Ashley: 1:40:24

Yeah, that's what's crazy. Through everything from when he was 16 to now I guess he's about 28 years old Every con he's committed he's been caught within two weeks to four months but somehow is escaping any sort of real punishment for his crimes. I mean, at this point he's been in jail one, two, three, like six, seven times, including in state jails, federal jails, international jails, but all of his sentences have just been really short and he just picks up and leaves. In early 1976, frank started telling some of his stories at venues in Texas, primarily for small businesses and vocational training programs for high school students. His anti-crime seminars emerged around April. By the end of the year he claimed he already gave lectures for Harvard Law School, the United States Treasury Department, los Angeles Police Department, chase, manhattan Bank, exxon Oil and even Scotland Yard. He married Kelly Welbs in November, a relationship he kept secret for years to follow. It's unclear where the couple met. Most often Frank claimed they crossed paths while he was working for the FBI undercover at a Houston orphanage. No doubt the agency, his parole officer, made him quit. But at other times he said they met at a grocery store.

Ashley: 1:42:01

Frank's first big public talk was for a Chamber of Commerce annual banquet in January 1977. It was a huge hit. He was rebooked within the month. In the lead up to his initial appearance, a reporter from the Galveston Daily News researched some of his impersonation claims, none of which could be verified. Abridged versions of the article appeared in papers throughout Texas but went largely unnoticed. Frank continued to primarily speak at smaller gatherings until he made his television debut on a spring episode of To Tell the Truth. For those of you who have never seen the game show, it involves four celebrity panelists tasked with finding the real person among a set of two other imposters. For this episode, the supposed truth teller was none other than Frank Abagnale Jr, dressed, of course, in a pilot's uniform.

Announcer: 1:43:05

I, frank William Abagnale, am known as the world's greatest imposter, and no wonder. In the course of my nefarious career, I've piled myself off as a doctor, lawyer, college instructor, stockbroker and airline pilot. To become an airline pilot, I merely bought a plastic ID card for $5, affixed an airline logo from a model plane hobby kit and, in no time at all, was co-pilot for a major airline. As a bogus lawyer, I actually worked on a state attorney general's staff For six years. I also cashed over $2,500,000 in bad checks in 26 countries. Ultimately, I was sentenced to 72 years in prison. I served one year in France, one year in Sweden. I then served four years in a federal prison in this country. Paroled, I now devote my life to the prevention and detection of crime. Signed Frank William Abagnale.

Ashley: 1:44:15

Frank walked away with $500 that night after fooling all four judges and becoming an overnight sensation. Who?

Remi: 1:44:24

did they pick? They picked the other guy dressed in a prison jumpsuit.

Ashley: 1:44:29

I'm not sure who they all picked. I think it was kind of split between the other two. But basically, how the show worked is you got money for each person you fooled. How the show worked is you got money for each person you fooled. And if you fooled all four, you got a bonus. And no one picked him as the real frank abagnale.

Remi: 1:44:45

I find that astonishing, having seen the other two contestants in this clip while media coverage for frank increased tenfold between 1970 and 1978.

Ashley: 1:44:59

His speaking engagement started crisscrossing the United States and he was interviewed by Johnny Carson on the Tonight Show three times that year. Here's a clip of him being interviewed by America's beloved talk show host. I supervise seven interns on the midnight to eight shift.

Catch Me If You Can Clip: 1:45:18

Have you had any medical training.

Frank Abagnale Jr: 1:45:25

No medical training and I don't like the sight of blood. And when I was, when I would be called to the emergency room, I'd walk in. There'd be two or three interns there and I'd be called down and I'd walk in and I'd say what's the problem? And they'd say, doctor, we have a severe in cardio here with a. I didn't know if the guy broke his leg, had a heart attack. So I would say well, dr Carter, what do you think? Well, doctor, I would like to administer 30 cc's of this. Dr John, I concur, jane, I concur, gentlemen, have at it and out, I would go. Well, I became one of the most respected residents because I was the only one that ever allowed them to do anything without any.

Remi: 1:45:58

I cannot believe. The I concur thing is probably one of the few things that's gonna end up being true in this story.

Ashley: 1:46:08

With all this publicity, frank needed a booking agent. He met college senior Mark Zinder at a TED Talk-like conference in Washington DC in August 1978. Mark approached Frank and offered to help him break into an untapped market the college circuit. He helped Frank book lectures across college campuses for the rest of the year and introduced him to New Line Presentations, a management company affiliated with Warner Brothers. In between his college chores, frank continued giving lectures for large financial institutions but started to hit a little more resistance.

Ashley: 1:46:49

In October and December 1978, reporters from the San Francisco Chronicle and the Daily Oklahoman wrote lengthy exposés debunking Frank's claims one by one. In each article the reporter spoke to people and employees from each agency. Frank claimed to have been affiliated with Pan Am, byu, the Baton Rouge Attorney's General's Office and Cobb County General Hospital. Each agency offered conclusive evidence that he wasn't employed there under the aliases he gave and could not have pulled off his hoaxes. Even his stories about his time in the Atlanta Penitentiary were rebuffed. Many of the agencies the reporters spoke to said they tried to contact the media after Frank started showing up on Johnny Carson's Tonight, but no one seemed interested in setting the record straight. Frank responded to these exposés by canceling his gigs, avoiding the area and claiming the people involved in his ruses didn't want to report or own up to them because they were embarrassed and didn't want bad publicity. Although his lies were fully exposed, the negative publicity didn't really leave the areas where the articles were published. So Frank continued his busy speaking schedule and made more appearances on the Tonight Show, the Phil Donahue Show, the Mike Douglas Show and Catch-21.

Ashley: 1:48:24

Mark officially became Frank's booking agent after he started working at New Line Presentations in the summer of 1979. He actually secured a book movie deal and set to work writing his autobiography with the help of Stan Redding, a two-time Pulitzer Prize nominee and award-winning journalist with the Houston Chronicle. A few months before the book was set to hit the stands, frank approached Mark with a proposition. He didn't like that. The talent agency was taking 35% of his speaking fee and offered Mark a lucrative deal Leave the company and work for him in exchange for a base salary and 20% per booking. Mark accepted. The pair moved to Houston to set up shop. By this point Mark was completely unaware that Frank was a married man, since he boasted about his sexual conquests and portrayed himself as a bachelor whenever they were on the road.

Ashley: 1:49:25

Shortly after moving to Houston, frank introduced Mark to Kelly Welves, his wife, secretary and obvious financial decision maker. Frank initially tried to back out of the salary and commission rate the two previously agreed upon but Mark held his ground and negotiated a $5,000 bonus if he booked Frank 50 times within the year. The only thing he didn't get was exclusive booking rights, meaning other agents could contact Frank with gigs. Kelly drew up the contract. Business was booming. Immediately after Catch Me If you Can was released in September 1980. The autobiography contained all the usual tales, but with more details about his sexual exploits. There was also a disclaimer about all the names, dates and places being changed. This was likely added in response to the journalist who attempted to debunk his claims. Now it would be nearly impossible for new skeptics to do the same. Mark approached Frank about his bonus check after the 53rd booking, but Frank refused to pay, saying not all the bookings counted because they weren't at his premium rate of $3,400. Again, adjusted for inflation. All the amounts I'm going to give I've already adjusted for inflation.

Remi: 1:50:55

So this guy got him what he wanted, and now Frank is basically trying to screw him out of the bonus that he earned.

Ashley: 1:51:04

That is exactly how Mark viewed it as well. He called him a con man and was fired the next day. While Mark worked to rebuild his talent agency, frank's bookings tanked, especially within the college circuit. This is probably why he went crawling back in early 1982, this time giving Mark exactly what he wanted full booking rights. But unbeknownst to the talent and agent, they had a new adversary on the horizon, bill Toney, a criminology professor at Stephen F Austin University.

Ashley: 1:51:44

Frank lectured at SFAU in November 1981, and after several of Toney's students asked for college credit if they went, he told them sure, but you gotta take notes on everything and use investigative techniques to research and verify everything you heard. His students spent the next eight months debunking the fraudster, using the same methods as the journalists before them. Tony was invited to speak at a conference for the International Platform Association in August 1982 and used his podium to share his students' findings. Many colleges started to rethink hiring Frank as a speaker after the IPA conference. Frank didn't seem to know why, and Mark was completely unaware of the reason for about a month, when one of Tony's students ran into him at another conference and gleefully shared their research. Mark tried to get in touch with Frank, but he was nowhere to be found. This marked the end of their relationship for good, not long after Frank announced that he was suspending his university talks for good, because sharing details of his cons was quote, not something to which young, impressionable minds should be exposed.

Remi: 1:53:07

Because all of his cons are like, easily disprovable and they're not clever at all.

Ashley: 1:53:14

Yes, but he's framing it as an yes, but he's framing it as an. I did bad. I shouldn't be encouraging people to do bad, so I'm not doing this anymore, but in reality, the truth is he's like I've been got. I need to step away from this crowd for a bit, but not once did he admit to deception.

Ashley: 1:53:36

Of course he didn't, despite yet another instance of undisputed research proving Frank a liar. Tony's research didn't travel beyond college campuses, so he was still popular with the banking and chamber of commerce crowds, but he did drastically reduce his media appearances. However, he was facing a new legal battle Civil lawsuits. Tony kicked things off by filing a civil suit for damages. Mark also sued for business losses, at least two other Harris County residents who invested over $60,000 in Frank's company sued. Once the repayment days came and went, Frank responded by ignoring all court orders and notices to appear and fled to Oklahoma. He did make the mistake, though, of returning to Texas for a few speaking gigs at the end of 1985, during which he was served Twice. I don't know the outcomes of these lawsuits, but I suspect some, if not all, were settled because he filed for bankruptcy in 1991.

Ashley: 1:54:48

Frank continued to try to option his movie rights throughout the rest of the 1980s. Although some production agencies were invested and actually did pay for them, nothing ever went anywhere. Nonetheless, he continued to tease the film at various lectures, allegedly claiming that Tom Cruise had replaced Dustin Hoffman. After the release of Top Gun in 1986. Frank settled in Tulsa with his wife and three kids and appeared to enjoy living a quiet life in between speaking engagements, and it did seem that he found the perfect balance. He had enough popularity to live comfortably, but less fame, which meant he avoided public scrutiny. After America went on a family values kick in the mid-1990s, he reinvented himself. Now Frank was a devoted father and husband who framed his hoax within a larger saga of redemption and model family values.

Frank Abagnale Jr.: 1:55:52

I could sit here and tell you I was born again. I saw the light again. I saw the light. Prison rehabilitated me, but the truth is God gave me a wife, she gave me three beautiful children, she gave me a family and she changed my life she and she alone. Everything I have, everything I've achieved, who I am today is because of the love of a woman and the respect three boys have for their father.

Ashley: 1:56:20

In conceptualizing his criminal past, Frank portrayed himself as a wayward youth who didn't know better, even though most of his crimes were not committed during adolescence.

Frank Abagnale Jr.: 1:56:32

I'm saying you know you were brilliant, you were an absolute genius. I was neither. I was just a child. Had it been brilliant, had were an absolute genius? I was neither I was just a child. Had I been brilliant, had I been a genius, I don't know that I would have found it necessary to break the law in order to just simply survive, and while I know that people are fascinated by what I did some 50 years ago as a teenage boy, I've always looked upon what I did as something that was immoral, illegal, unethical and a burden I live with literally every single day of my life and will until my death.

Ashley: 1:57:06

Steven Spielberg announced that the script for Catch Me If you Can was almost finished in 1999. Frank seemed surprised and even displeased about the news, stating I didn't really care to have a movie out there exploiting my life as a teenager or glamorizing my life as a teenager, but he sure did benefit. On the eve of the movie's release, he was charging up to $25,000 for speaking appearances and released a new edition of his autobiography. After the movie was released, he initially said it was 90% accurate, even more so than his own book. However, after two journalists from the New York Times yet again debunked his claims, he posted the following message to his website. I feel it necessary to make the following statement concerning the book and film Catch Me If you Can. The reasons for this statement is to provide clarification and accuracy.

Ashley: 1:58:13

I wrote the book Catch Me If you Can more than 23 years ago. Obviously, this was written from my perspective as a 16-year-old, with the help of a co-writer. I'm now 54, and I sold the movie rights in 1980. I was interviewed by the co-writer only about four times. I believe he did a great job and what the editor wanted. He always reminded me that he was just telling a story and not writing my biography. This is one of the reasons that, from the very beginning I insisted, the publisher put a disclaimer in the book and tapes. It has been reported that I had written $10 million, $8 million and $5 million worth of bad checks. The actual amount was $2.5 million.

Ashley: 1:59:04

I was never on the FBI's 10 most wanted list, as this is reserved for very violent criminals who pose a threat to society. All of the crimes I committed were when I was between the ages of 16 and 21. I served time in prison in France, sweden and the United States. In the US Federal Court, I was sentenced as a youthful offender because of my age at the time the crimes were committed. Even so, I was given 12 years, of which I served a total of 5 years. Though I was given 12 years, of which I served a total of five years. This was considered harsh punishment then and almost unheard of today.

Ashley: 1:59:45

I have been married for over 25 years and am the proud father of three sons. When I was 28 years old, I thought it would be great to have a movie about my life, but when I was 28, like when I was 16, I was egotistical and self-centered. We all grow up. Hopefully we get wiser, age brings wisdom, and fatherhood changes one's life completely. I consider my past immoral and ethical and illegal. Consider my past immoral, unethical and illegal. It is something I am not proud of. I am proud that I have been able to turn my life around and, in the past 25 years, help my government, my clients, thousands of corporations and consumers deal with the problems of white-collar crime and fraud, of white-collar crime and fraud. I know that Hollywood has made a number of changes to the story, but I am honored that Steven Spielberg, leonardo DiCaprio and Tom Hanks participated in the making of the movie inspired by my life. It is important to understand that it is just a movie, not a biographical documentary. Signed Frank Abagnale, september 2003.

Remi: 2:01:04

It seems like this guy sold the rights off to his movie very, very early on and, as we discussed during my segment, it was passed from studio to studio for several, several years and I think he sold these rights off thinking that this project may potentially never get made, but the day that it did get made by Steven fucking Spielberg with Tom Hanks and Leonardo DiCaprio with Tom Hanks and Leonardo DiCaprio. That brings a lot of attention to your story that you have been claiming is true for several decades. So I feel like at this point he is in way over his head and just trying to cover his tracks any way he can.

Ashley: 2:01:55

Basically, oh for sure. That's exactly what happened. He not only sold the rights, he was trying to peddle them for a decade, and it kept going nowhere.

Remi: 2:02:05

And I do want to point out, in a lot of these films they bring on the people who were actually involved in the true story. As an advisor of some sort, frank Abagnale Jr was never brought on in any official capacity for the actual film.

Ashley: 2:02:23

I also think it's funny to point out that when the movie was first released in December 2002, he was telling people this is 90% accurate to my life. It's even more accurate than the autobiography it's based on. It wasn't until two reporters from the Los Angeles Times basically did the exact same expose that had been done on him years prior, revealed that it was all fake, that he kind of tried to step back and was like things were exaggerated for the movie. It's Hollywood, what do you expect? Back and was like things were exaggerated for the movie. It's Hollywood, what do you expect? But before we move away from the movie, let's address a question that no doubt has been bouncing through your mind for the past hour how the hell did Frank manage to fool everyone for decades and, in many ways, continue to get away with it to this day? Well, the short answer is it sounds like he had help Per Alan Logan, the author of the Greatest Hoax on Earth, catching the Truth While we Can, which is the main source material I use for my portion, and I did do extra internet research to make sure that it wasn't just this one guy.

Ashley: 2:03:36

Everything that Alan Logan says in his book a lot of it is on Frank Abagnale's Wikipedia page now and there are links to all the articles that Alan Logan talks about. He is very good at citing his sources, so this guy did his research. But anyways, per his book, frank teamed up with Leo Langulaw, the author of an advertising and marketing agency, in 1976. Leo started negotiating a book movie package as early as 1977, meaning both men stood to profit from a captivating tale.

Remi: 2:04:15

So they were trying to sell this story really, really early on.

Ashley: 2:04:20

And this guy was a marketing advertising executive, someone who knows how to craft a persona that can be digested by America. In June 1977, Stan Redding, the co-author of Frank's 1980 autobiography, interviewed him for the Houston Chronicle. Leo was introduced as a reputable source who could vouch for Frank's tales. This suggests that all three men were involved in creating the public persona of Frank Abagnale Jr.

Remi: 2:04:57

The Times Before Internet.

Ashley: 2:05:00

Frank's relationship with Leo soured in 1978, when the L'Angoulis Communications Company filed a civil suit demanding he turn over everything designed to quote commercially exploit his life story dating back to January 1976.

Ashley: 2:05:19

This likely dates the beginning of their relationship and places it about one year before he gave his first major talk, where he started telling his quote-unquote life story in Galveston, texas, in January 1977. Leo, no doubt, would have been a valuable asset for a young man in his late 20s looking to craft a public persona that would rank in buku bucks. And as for co-author Stan Redding, well, frank never once accused him of telling exaggerated or embellished tales. That is not until the release of the film. But by that time Stan had been dead for 15 years and couldn't defend himself. Now, that's not saying I don't think Stan Redding was the most ethical of journalists. In fact the Houston Chronicle, his own employer, described him as a teller of tall tales in his 1987 obituary, while other fellow journalists flat out said that Stan lied in his stories to create publicity. What do you think, remy, about that theory that kind of all three of these guys were involved because of a financial gain? They saw down the line.

Remi: 2:06:40

I think it checks out. I don't think Frank was smart enough to pull off this sort of thing himself. He wasn't smart, he wasn't organized, he wasn't good at keeping track of his stories. So it makes a lot of sense that he found some people that were able to do that for him and get him a lot of publicity for it.

Ashley: 2:07:01

I believe it too. I truly believe that all three of these men concocted a story and that Frank was kind of coached on what to say and not to do and then by the time they started falling off one by one. He already had enough momentum, he didn't need help falling off one by one. He already had enough momentum, he didn't need help. After the development of the saga of Frank Abagnale Jr was established, there were other subtle ways that I think he avoided getting caught. These involved the excuses and avoidance tactics he used when things were too hot for him. Adding the disclaimer about changing virtually all identifying information when he published his autobiography was, for sure, helpful, and even trying to tie himself to the FBI was clever, as it's an agency notorious for secrecy. In fact, the FBI said virtually nothing about his claims Until after the film was released, when a spokesperson gave a brief statement acknowledging that Frank had given lectures at the academy quote from time to time but was never given commendations or employed by the agency. Many now believe his work for the FBI was minimal. In the few years after Catch Me If you Can's release, frank continued to tell his story at packed venues. I listened to several talks spanning decades and they are clearly memorized for hashings of the bullshit he's been peddling for decades, all bent now with a lengthy sob story about how he was a naive kid struggling to survive after he was shattered beyond repair when his parents surprised him by announcing their divorce in family court the day it was approved. And before he starts talking about himself, he likes to say that he doesn't like talking about himself and actively tries to avoid doing it. Another obvious untruth Frank became an ambassador for the American Association of Retired Persons, advocating for the protection of the elderly and retirees from fraudsters. He has published four books about fraud protection from 2001 to 2019. White Collar, a series inspired by Frank and starring Matt Bomber, aired on the USA Network from 2009 to 2014.

Ashley: 2:09:33

He attended the 2001 Tony Awards where Catch Me If you Can. The musical received four nominations and won Best Performing Actor in a Musical. In February 2020, former Delta flight attendant Paula Parks learned he was speaking at a conference and decided to confront him. She intended to talk to him privately to make it clear how much pain he caused her, since deceased parents. The encounter, unsurprisingly, didn't go as she hoped. Frank showed no recognition when she approached his book table and told him who her and her family were. After a little back and forth, she asked him to sign a copy of his autobiography and title it to her parents with an apology, and this is what she got To Charlotte and John Sorry. He met media scrutiny once again during a talk at Xavier University when he was awarded the Heroes in Ethics Award on September 12, 2022.

Remi: 2:10:38

Are you kidding me?

Ashley: 2:10:40

Well, you weren't the only person to be thinking this, because Frank made a mistake. He opened the floor to audience questions and Jim Grunstead, host of the Scams and Cons podcast, asked the following question. So I wonder, in light of the Eth ethics award you're going to be presented tonight, would you come clean? Would you tell the truth about the stories you've told? Will you admit that you just lied to everybody and you're still conning them? Frank denied telling lies or spreading misinformation. Today, frank Abagnale is 77 years old and lives with his wife on Daniel Island, an island community that is part of Charleston, south Carolina. He claims to have been associated with the FBI for 40 years and continues to maintain a busy speaking schedule. Per his website, he has spoken at five major conferences thus far in 2025. And that is the true story of Steven Spielberg's. Catch Me, if you Can. Wow, what a whirlwind. Let's all take a minute. Take a deep breath, remy. What do you think about Frank Abagnale?

Remi: 2:12:04

You know, I gotta say that it kind of bums me out a little bit that this is the guy that we ended up discussing for our season premiere. He really did not do very much at all and even his lies seems like they were like piggybacking off of other people's stories and I don't know. He just was so full of shit and not impressive and probably like the lamest con man I've ever heard of, to be honest.

Ashley: 2:12:27

Yeah, it is baffling to me that he was able to get away with this for so long and in many ways, continues to get away with it. Even on his Wikipedia it now acknowledges that much of what he says has been disproven multiple times, but he still continues to sell the same rehashed stories even to this day and pretty much unchecked.

Remi: 2:12:54

There are so many really fascinating, brilliant, true life con men who have existed throughout the years. I know that someone actually sold the Eiffel Tower in a con job and of course they did not own the Eiffel Tower. But when you hear of a really impressive con job, it kind of wows you. You're like, wow, that person got away with that. I would never have the confidence or the know-how or the skill to do that. This guy I could have done any of the things that he did. He was not smart, clever and honestly it makes me like the movie a little bit less because they are promoting him as this suave, cool, successful con man played by Leonardo DiCaprio.

Ashley: 2:13:36

Well, arguably his biggest con is his entire career, the fact that he made up these tales, I truly believe, with the help of a media consultant and an author, and then was able to earn millions of dollars over the course of decades.

Remi: 2:13:54

I know there is a ton of really big changes that we know of from the adaptation here, but what about a smaller change? So let's hop into our objection of the week. Your honor. I object. And why is that, Mr Reed? Because it's devastating to my case. Overruled. Good call. And in case this is your first time joining us, welcome. And our objection of the week is the most unnecessary, lamest, superfluous change which was made in the adaptation to the Silver Screen. Ashley, would you like to kick things off for us in our season premiere?

Ashley: 2:14:36

Okay. So, like you said, there's obviously a ton of huge changes. One of the minor changes I wrote down is that in the opening scene on To Tell the Truth, you had said that all three of the quote unquote Frank Abagnales were dressed as pilots, when on the real clip that he was on that I showed you, one is dressed as a pilot that's the real Frank One is dressed as a doctor and the other one is dressed in prison attire. So I'm going to go with that and I actually think it's funnier having them dressed as different personas than having them just all be dressed the same.

Remi: 2:15:13

The prisoner persona was the funniest to me. He's literally dressed like the Hamburglar standing next to Frank Abagnale dressed as a pilot there. But for my objection of the week. Normally we do try to avoid name changes, just because name changes happen in almost every single adaptation somehow. However, when it's a name change this small, I feel like it warrants a mention here. In the film, frank's mother is named Paula. In reality her name was Paulette. That is my objection of the week. You couldn't get more pointless than that.

Ashley: 2:15:53

Most of the time when we try to avoid names, it's because they had to change the name for legal reasons. I don't think they had to do that here, so that is weird that Spielberg did that. So I'll give it to you.

Remi: 2:16:06

All right, starting off season five strong, which brings us to the main event of our podcast, our verdict.

Verdict: 2:16:28

At the conclusion of each episode, our hosts will deliver a verdict based on the film's accuracy. Our podcast Our Verdict the film will be declared a mistrial. But if the film ultimately strays too far from the truth, then it will be condemned as guilty and sentenced to a life behind bars.

Ashley: 2:16:45

And I do want to note here before we get started I think this is going to be a pretty easy one. This movie is technically based on the autobiography, but by the time it came around that Spielberg had the rights to this, he could have very well have done a little bit research beyond the autobiography if he was still going to plan on saying that the movie was inspired by a true story. So I'm just keeping that in my head as I'm going forward with this. Remy, why don't you start?

Remi: 2:17:14

Like you said, I don't think this is going to be a shocker. I'm giving this film a big guilty verdict. Everything Frank said was basically made up and I know that the film is based on his book, but it seems like it was already starting to be pretty common knowledge that this guy was full of shit and Spielberg gave him an outlet to broadcast his shit with this movie and it's sort of a bummer because I think he would have maybe just dwindled away, especially with the emergence of the internet and people being able to check people's history and backstories a lot easier. But this film kind of immortalized him in a way and that sucks, because this guy does not deserve to be immortalized. He was a loser, he was a horrible womanizer and a bit of a perv and he really didn't do anything impressive. So, yeah, I can't give this movie anything but a guilty verdict, which breaks my heart, because I love Spielberg, I love Hanks and I love DiCaprio, but man, I hate theanks and I love DiCaprio, but man, I hate the real Frank Abagnale Jr.

Ashley: 2:18:22

It totally does seem that this movie gave him a resurgence. Like I had mentioned, by the time it was coming out, the anticipation about it caused him to be able to raise his speaking rates like tenfold, which is absolutely bonkers. I don't know what he charges now. I'm sure it's dropped down again, hopefully at least. But I agree with you. It's obvious this is a guilty verdict. It is so guilty it might even rival Scream in its guilt. Frank Abagnale is a con man and if you ever meet him, be warned Don't believe anything that comes out of this elderly man's mouth.

Remi: 2:19:02

Well, that's it. We got two guilty verdicts. Catch Me, if you Can is being sent to the big house, but what is our court case on the docket for two weeks from now? Ashley, I know it's a very different one than what we just discussed here today.

Ashley: 2:19:18

It is. I am very excited for it. I didn't know much about the true story, just kind of the basics. It's a very, very, very famous case and the movie is one I know you have seen before and talked about how much you really enjoy it. I have not seen it, so I'm excited to hear about it. We are going to be talking about Gus Van Sant's To Die For, which is inspired by the case of Pamela Smart, who hired some teenagers to kill her husband.

Remi: 2:19:46

I love this movie. It is starring Nicole Kidman, joaquin Phoenix, matt Dillon. It is a satirical comedy that came out back in the mid-90s and it is probably one of the films that got me interested in filmmaking to begin with. I really really like this film and I look forward to discussing it in a couple of weeks. I really don't get to chat about this with very many people because it seems like this came and went and now it's not really discussed much anymore, which is a shame.

Ashley: 2:20:17

And before we wind down here, I just want to give a big special thanks to all of our listeners. I've noticed an uptick in five-star ratings across platforms, so we very, very much appreciate it. We also got a rather new review. That is from Driver172 that I wanted to read.

Ashley: 2:20:39

This one-of-a-kind podcast, with the aid of tireless research from remy and ashley, follows some of our heavily followed to barely known true crime stories and informs us what happened when these stories were placed in the hands of hollywood. The format for this breakdown is explained to each listener at the beginning of each podcast and the movie is rated accordingly by a verdict at the end of each episode, based on how far it ventured from the truth. Remy usually opens by presenting the Hollywood version, by breaking down the production and plot, and concludes by offering his opinion of the movie. Then Ashley jumps in by informing us what really happened, by giving us the true events as presented by a nonfiction account, as told by a reputable book. For instance, most all of us are aware that Denzel Washington played Malcolm X, but how true was Spike Lee's movie compared to the true story of the famed revolutionary? If you're a movie buff or bookster, or both, you will not only find out, you will be thoroughly entertained by Remy and Ashley in the process. Thank you so much for those kind words.

Remi: 2:21:42

Yes, thank you, and thank all of you for tuning in or streaming or downloading, or whatever the proper terminology is, and we appreciate any word of mouth, any reviews, any five stars, anything like that. It all helps, and we are very happy to be back with a brand new season with many more to come in the future. We are going to be leaving you with a trailer for To Die, for the film we will be covering two weeks from now, but until then, court is adjourned.

To Die For Trailer : 2:22:15

Suzanne would do anything to be famous. She's going to be the next Barbara.

Verdict: 2:22:21

Walters, I believe that Mr Gorbachev you know the man who ran Russia for so long. I believe that he would still be in power today if he had that big purple thing taken off his forehead To be on television. You're not anybody in America unless you're on TV.

To Die For Trailer : 2:22:35

Was a chance she would die for. You're on, good evening from the. Wwen Weather Center. Weather Center. Have any of you actually ever been on television before? To be a star, you've got to be able to do things that ordinary people wouldn't do was the opportunity she would kill for. Okay, and that's exactly what she did.