To Die For

In this episode, we peel back the layers of Gus Van Sant’s darkly satirical To Die For (1995) and the true story that inspired it: The 1990 murder of Greg Smart, orchestrated by his wife, Pamela Smart. Nicole Kidman’s icy portrayal of Suzanne Stone – an ambitious small-town woman willing to kill for fame – captivated audiences, but how closely does it mirror Pamela herself? We explore the real case: Pamela’s relationship with teenager Billy Flynn, the media circus that surrounded the trial, and how the coverage shaped public perception. We also look at what the movie gets right, what it dramatizes, and how Pamela Smart continues to make headlines decades later. Was To Die For a biting commentary on media obsession, or a Hollywood distortion of a tragedy that still divides opinions today? That’s up for you to decide.

Primary Sources:

• Sawicki, Stephen. Teach Me to Kill: The Shocking True Story of the Pamela Smart Murder Case. (2019). 
• NBC News (2006)
• Seacoast Online (2021)

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Theme: DARKNESS (feat. EdKara) by Ghost148

Chapters

• 0:00 Criminal Adaptations Introduction
• 13:38 To Die For: Film Overview
• 38:14 Suzanne's Manipulation and Murder Plot
• 59:48 The Aftermath and Film's Conclusion
• 1:12:05 The Real Pamela Smart Case
• 1:32:39 Smart's Trial and Media Frenzy
• 1:47:59 Final Verdicts and Case Legacy

Transcript

Ashley: 0:14

Welcome to Criminal Adaptations, the show where we take a look at some of your favorite movies and the true crime stories that inspired them. I'm Ashley. I'm a clinical psychologist and forensic evaluator in the state of Oregon.

Remi: 0:27

And I'm Remy. I spent over a decade working in the film and television industry in Los Angeles, California.

Ashley: 0:33

Hello and welcome back everyone for our second episode of season five. As always, we are so happy that you're here with us today and, as a quick reminder, if you do enjoy this podcast, please, please, please, rate, review, subscribe, tell a friend anything to get the word out. We love doing this and we hope you all are enjoying the season thus far, because we have another doozy for you. Remy, how are you?

Remi: 1:08

I'm doing pretty well today, looking forward to discussing a film which is probably one of my favorites, definitely in the top 20.

Ashley: 1:17

Wow, that is high praise for a movie I have not seen. What are we talking about today?

Remi: 1:22

Today we will be discussing the Gus Van Sant film To Die For, starring Nicole Kidman, which is based on the book To Die For, which is based loosely on the Pamela Smart case.

Ashley: 1:36

Yeah, I believe it's a novelization of it that's loosely inspired by her.

Remi: 1:42

Were you familiar with Pamela Smart or this film before we decided to add it to this season?

Ashley: 1:48

I definitely heard about Pamela Smart. It's probably a name that most Americans know, especially if you were alive around the time. This all happened in 1990, which I was, but I was a wee, wee, wee little one. As for the movie, I had never heard of it before until you suggested it.

Remi: 2:08

I saw this film because it came out the same year as Batman Forever, which Nicole Kidman was the female lead in, and that was the first film I ever saw her in and I was in love. I thought she was phenomenal. I think this was the second film I ever saw her in and I actually got my mom to take me to the theater to see this one. Believe it or not, it's always had a soft spot in my heart.

Remi: 2:34

I had assumed for a really long time that this was an entirely fictitious tale. Then I heard later on that it was loosely inspired by Pamela Smart and, to be honest, I am extremely unfamiliar with the Pamela Smart case and for years I thought that the ending of this movie was how Pamela Smart ended. But boy oh boy was I wrong when I started looking into the actual true story. This film is also directed by Gus Van Sant, who we will be discussing in future episodes such as Milk Elephant, and we already discussed in Feud Capote vs the Swans, which he directed six episodes. But I think he is mainly known for Good Will Hunting, obviously, which we watched not that long ago.

Ashley: 3:19

We did, and that is quite a repertoire of movies, all of which, except for maybe Elephant that's obviously the lesser known of the bunch, but I'm pretty sure all of the other ones got very high praise.

Remi: 3:33

Van Sant made a film called Jerry I think it was just a couple of years after Good Will Hunting and it stars Casey Affleck, who is one of the stars of this film, and Matt Damon, the writer and star of Good Will Hunting. But the plot of the film is about two guys named Jerry who are going to the desert looking for a thing and they get lost. And the whole movie is just them lost, walking around the desert with no supplies and no water, slowly dehydrating and starving to death. It is a really weird movie, but it was a trip. I really enjoyed it. He has a lot of films like that that are kind of slow and meandering, but I would not categorize this as one of those types of films.

Ashley: 4:13

Well, with that, let's just dive right into it, shall we? I know we have a lot of ground to cover today.

To Die For Clip: 4:19

You're not anybody in America unless you're on TV. On TV is where we learn about who we really are, Because what's the point of doing anything worthwhile if nobody's watching? And if people are watching it makes you a better person.

Remi: 4:34

To Die For is a 1995 satirical comedy film written by Buck Henry and directed by Gus Van Sant, starring Nicole Kidman, joaquin Phoenix, matt Dillon, ileana Douglas, casey Affleck and Alison Foland. Casey Affleck and Alison Foland To Die For began with a screenplay by Buck Henry, who years earlier had written Mike Nichols' 1967 film the Graduate, earning Henry his first Academy Award nomination.

Ashley: 5:00

Wow, the Graduate is that old. It does not feel like a film from the 60s.

Remi: 5:05

It was basically the film that kicked off Dustin Hoffman's career, and he has been around forever. I think he was in his early 20s when he made that film, so yeah, it's pretty old. After a period of relative obscurity, Buck later returned to prominence with To Die For, which was adapted from Joyce Maynard's novel of the same name. Maynard's book, published in 1992, was loosely inspired by the Pamela Smart case, which had drawn national media attention as one of the first televised courtroom trials in US history.

Ashley: 5:36

It was the first one which I did not know until I was researching this. How crazy is that.

Remi: 5:42

So it's sort of a history-making trial in that regard. But yeah, I thought this was going on back in the 80s.

Ashley: 5:48

Hard to believe, but yeah, I thought this was going on back in the 80s. Hard to believe. And then it is followed up with OJ and the Menendez brothers, and now televised courtroom trials are just part of our lexicon.

Remi: 5:59

The book eventually caught the attention of producer Laura Ziskin, who passed it along to Amy Pascal, then an executive VP at Columbia Pictures, resulting in the studio purchasing the film rights. Originally, Maynard had written the novel in a faux-documentary style, structured as a series of testimonials, but Buck Henry chose to reshape the story into a satirical black comedy by injecting the sharp wit and biting pop culture commentary that would inevitably define the film's new tone. During this time, Buck Henry told his agent that he was eager to work with Gus Van Sant, who had just come off the 1993 box office bomb. Even Cowgirls Get the Blues. Have you ever heard of this film, Ashley?

Ashley: 6:42

Not once.

Remi: 6:43

I haven't seen it, but I've seen clips of it and I know it is a western, starring Uma Thurman as a cowgirl with a really really long thumb. That's all I got people. I wonder why it wasn't a success. Coincidentally, van Sant had also expressed interest in working with Henry, leading to To Die For becoming the first film Van Sant directed that he did not write himself. Initially, the studio imagined Meg Ryan in the lead role, who at the time was primarily known for her work in romantic comedy films such as Sleepless in Seattle and when Harry Met Sally. Though Ryan was interested and was offered a $5 million salary, she ultimately passed on the project due to a pay dispute, so apparently she wanted more money. Project due to a pay dispute, so apparently she wanted more money. Other actresses who read for the role of Suzanne Stone included a then-unknown Ellen DeGeneres, patricia Arquette and even Janine Garofalo. Arquette was Van Sant's first choice amongst the group, but she was soon committed to another project in Asia so became unavailable.

Remi: 7:49

Enter Nicole Kidman. At the time, kidman was looking to break away from big-budget Hollywood productions like Days of Thunder and Far and Away, both of which she co-starred in alongside her then-husband Tom Cruise. Kidman had originally started her career acting in independent films back in Australia and longed for the opportunity to work with lower-budgeted cinematic auteurs again. So when Kidman read the script for To Die For, she became utterly consumed with landing the role. In fact, kidman even tracked down Gus Van Sant's personal phone number and called him at home. The two spoke for over 40 minutes about her vision for Suzanne, and Van Sant recalled thinking if she's this into it, she'll probably do a really good job. Kidman got the part just two hours later, at a salary of $2 million. Funnily enough, in Maynard's original novel, suzanne even states that she hopes the actress who just married Tom Cruise would play her in the movie.

Ashley: 8:48

That's really funny. What a coincidence.

Remi: 8:51

For the role of Jimmy Emmett. The production considered several young actors, including Johnny Galecki, adrian Grenier, edward Furlong and Giovanni Ribisi. Furlong was reportedly disappointed that he wasn't offered the role, since he thought his meeting with Van Sant had gone pretty well and I do think he could have done this role. But Phoenix really hits it out of the park.

Ashley: 9:13

It's hard to beat Joaquin Phoenix. I know he's a bit of a weirdo, but man, he's a good actor.

Remi: 9:18

Well, matt Damon also read for the part of Jimmy, who Van Sant was totally blown away by even saying after his audition now that's a movie star. However, damon was around 24 years old at this time and looked a bit too old to be portraying a teenager. But Damon offered to slim down a bit in order to make himself appear a bit younger on screen. Though Damon did accomplish this task, van Sant still felt that Damon was a bit too clean-cut and joked that Jimmy shouldn't look like a baseball player. And I agree Damon does kind of have that jock look to him.

Remi: 9:57

Eventually, van Sant heard through an agent that Joaquin Phoenix was interested in auditioning, which Van Sant was open to since he had previously directed Joaquin's late brother, river Phoenix, in his 1991 film my Own Private, idaho. Joaquin, who was 19 at the time and living in Florida, flew to New York for the audition and, according to casting director Meredith Tucker, it was one of the most incredible auditions she'd ever witnessed and he was offered the part almost immediately. As for Russell Hines, matt Damon recommended his best friend's younger brother, casey Affleck, for the role. Casey had a much more scrappy appearance than Ben and Matt and would audition six times before Van Sant finally saw him. In the end, van Sant was won over by Casey's thick Boston accent which, ironically, ben and Matt had both spent a considerable amount of effort attempting to stifle to advance their careers. At the time, casey Affleck was only 17 years old and To Die For would be his feature film debut.

Casey Affleck: 11:00

We rehearsed on that movie Remember the rehearsal, yeah, which after that there's not that many rehearsals, not many movies where you get the chance to rehearse but Gus Vincent had us all sit down and we improvised stuff. We just had sort of generic like sit in a circle as your character I don't know like you do the scene and then keep talking a little bit, and that was really fun and I was kind of spoiled because I thought that that's what all movies would be like, working with you and Gus and Joaquin, and obviously you know they're not all that great.

To Die For Clip: 11:33

But you guys were fun. We had fun. We were fun to shoot with. Yeah, yeah, well, you were those boys.

Casey Affleck: 11:41

Well, I wouldn't go that far In character. That's a bit of an insult, no, no. I know.

Remi: 11:50

For the role of Janice Moreto, several actresses were considered, including Sandra Bullock, janine Garofalo, jennifer Tilly, katherine Keener, terry Hatcher and even Ellen DeGeneres, again until Ileana Douglas was eventually cast. However, buck Henry reportedly wasn't thrilled with the choice and felt that Douglas' performance didn't fit the tone of the rest of the film. Henry even created his own VHS edit of the movie with her role cut out entirely, which cinematographer Eric Allen Edwards described as completely unwatchable For the part of troubled teenager Lydia Mertz. The production worked with a local Boston casting agency in search of someone authentic to the region. This is how they found Alison Foland, a high school student from Cambridge with no acting aspirations, who only showed up to the open casting call out of sheer curiosity. The casting team assumed she had dressed specifically for the role, when in actuality Folland was simply wearing her average attire. Van Sant later said they couldn't even tell if she was acting or just being herself during the audition.

Ashley: 12:59

Probably a little bit of both.

Remi: 13:01

I don't think I've seen this actress in anything else, but she does a really good job in this film. For the role of Larry Moreto, several names were considered, including Viggo Mortensen, tom Sizemore, vincent Gallo and Chris Isaac. Matt Dillon had previously worked with Van Sant on his 1989 film Drugstore Cowboy and apparently his audition to play Larry was so good that the casting team completely forgot about any other actor who had come before him. Principal photography took place from April to June 1994, with the film shot primarily in and around Port Hope, ontario. The high school scenes were filmed at King City Secondary School in King City, with actual students used as extras.

Remi: 13:45

The honeymoon scenes with Suzanne and Larry were filmed in the Tampa Bay area of Florida. So shout out to all my Tampa Bay and Sarasota folks out there, you know who you are. And finally, the film's score was composed by none other than Danny Elfman, who you probably know from just about every Tim Burton film, whose musical style added an eerie satirical touch to the film's atmosphere. Now, ashley, are you ready to hear all about Gus Van Sant's To Die For?

Ashley: 14:13

Yeah, let's get into it. I'm excited.

Remi: 14:29

Our story begins in Little Hope, new Hampshire, in the dead of winter, where Suzanne Stone, played by Nicole Kidman, is attending her husband's funeral, surrounded by a swarm of reporters and news cameras. As the opening credits roll over a montage of headlines covering Suzanne and the murder of her late husband, the title sequence ends with us coming face to face with Suzanne herself, speaking directly to the camera and introducing herself as Suzanne Moreto. She then quickly corrects herself by clarifying that Moreto was actually her married name, which belonged to her late husband, larry, played by Matt Dillon, so now prefers to go by her professional name of Suzanne Stone.

To Die For Clip: 15:11

The point is that, for instance, Connie Chung, who is married, I believe, to Mari Povich, the well-known interviewer, doesn't say hello, this is Connie Povich with the news now does she? And I don't think she would be embarrassed by it or anything like that, because she's already pretty ethnic when you think about it. Or, to take another example, someone who doesn't appear to have an ethnic bone in her body, there's Jane Polly, who I strongly relate to because you know we have similar physical traits, Although I, thankfully, don't have to struggle with a white problem like she does.

Ashley: 15:50

It's not really a good luck to already abandon your married name like days after your husband was murdered.

Remi: 15:54

Physically, suzanne has strawberry blonde hair in a voluminous bob with bangs, fair skin, soft makeup and is dressed in a light pink blazer with gold earrings. The entire scene plays much more like a pre-prepared audition tape for a reality television show than a grieving widow mourning the tragic loss of her beloved husband. We then cut to Frank's sister, janice Moreto, played by Ileana Douglas, being interviewed at an ice skating rink. Janice recounts how Larry first laid eyes on Suzanne while bartending at his family's Italian restaurant Moretto's. According to Janice, it was love at first sight for Larry and he was instantaneously smitten, while Janice thought Suzanne came across as a bit of a C-word C standing for cold. Of course, at the time Larry drove a Harley and played drums in a cover band, so obviously could have had any woman he wanted. But despite Susan's cold demeanor and Janice's repeated attempts to dissuade him, larry just couldn't resist her. After only a short time dating, larry was head over heels and announced that he planned on marrying Suzanne, much to Janice's dismay, who mockingly pretends to vomit. While Larry thinks the world of Suzanne and speaks nothing but praise about her, she comes across as a shallow, self-absorbed airhead to practically everyone else that she encounters.

Remi: 17:21

We next cut to a daytime TV interview featuring Suzanne and Larry's parents, earl and Carol Stone, played by Kurtwood Smith and Holland Taylor, and Joe and Angela Moreto, played by Dan Hedaya and Maria Tucci. Earl begins by admitting that he initially didn't think that Larry was good enough for Suzanne, due to Larry's lack of a college education. He even offhandedly suggested that Larry's Italian family could have mafia ties to deter his daughter, but Suzanne would simply laugh this off as a seemingly ridiculous prospect. Joe Moretto, on the other hand, had always hoped that Larry would marry a nice Italian girl, but realized that his son was serious about Suzanne after Larry sold his beloved drum kit in an effort to become more of the man Suzanne envisioned. Larry and Suzanne were married soon after, with Suzanne herself personally designing their wedding rings and also had her bridal veil copied from the exact one Maria Shriver wore during her wedding to Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Remi: 18:23

The couple honeymooned in Florida at Suzanne's suggestion, which was odd, since Suzanne usually avoided the sun.

Remi: 18:30

As well as beaches, however, larry loved boating and fishing, so supposedly Suzanne had chosen the destination simply to make her new husband happy, though there is a lingering implication that she likely cheated on Larry during his many hours of oceanic excursions After returning from their honeymoon, larry cashes out his savings, which he had planned on using to return to college someday, and instead uses the money for a down payment on a condo and a Mustang for Suzanne to drive to her new job working down at the local WWEN television station. We are next introduced to a teenage girl named Lydia Mertz, played by Alison Foland, being interviewed for a documentary discussing the many life lessons she learned from Suzanne, such as Opportunity is always knocking, but if you aren't listening, its knuckles get sore and it moves on to another house. Lydia also reveals that Suzanne claimed to have chosen a specific hotel in Florida for her and Larry's honeymoon, knowing full well that it would concurrently be hosting a national broadcaster's conference, giving Suzanne ample opportunity to hobnob with big shot TV executives, while Larry was none the wiser.

Ashley: 19:41

I will be so mad if you plan our honeymoon to line up with some convention.

Remi: 19:47

I think it would be weird in general to go on your honeymoon and spend like zero time with the person you just married. Isn think it would be weird in general to go on your honeymoon and spend like zero time with the person you just married. Isn't it supposed to be about you two connecting and being together, not one person going off and doing their thing and the other going off and doing their thing?

Ashley: 20:01

Yeah, I don't think it bodes well for the status of the marriage.

Remi: 20:05

Flashing back to the honeymoon, suzanne effortlessly slips into the broadcaster's conference and ends up having drinks with one of the speakers, played by George Siegel. George advises Suzanne to use her sexuality to compensate for her lack of experience if she ever wants to get ahead in the industry. And though Suzanne clearly looks uncomfortable with the suggestion, it is heavily implied that she put this advice to use that very same evening. There's a lot of implications in this film. Most things are not directly shown. That's why I keep phrasing things like that. It never shows anything, but it's hinted at. We then hear from Suzanne's former boss at WWEN, ed Grant, played by Seinfeld's Newman Wayne Knight, who recalls originally hiring Suzanne to do little more than answer the mail and run errands for minimum pay and no benefits. Nevertheless, Suzanne still viewed her job as the first stepping stone towards her dream of someday becoming an on-air personality.

Ashley: 21:06

We all gotta start somewhere.

Remi: 21:09

That is very true of the entertainment industry If you got a foot in the door, it can lead to bigger things Around. This time, larry gifts Suzanne a small Pomeranian which she positively adores and names Walter after the legendary CBS news anchor Walter Cronkite. Since there wasn't much for Suzanne to do down at WWEN, she primarily spent her time working on her Idea File, which was a collection of potential news stories she hoped to cover once getting on the air. These file folders were all pink, of course, which is sort of fun in a Legally Blonde sort of way. She kind of reminds me of an evil Elle Woods in this film actually of reminds me of an evil Elwoods in this film actually. After many months of persistence, ed finally gave in and offered Suzanne her first on-camera gig doing the nightly weather report live on air each and every evening.

Ashley: 22:01

See, she hustled and she got what she wanted, or is on her way towards it.

Remi: 22:06

She was persistent. She kept bringing her idea files to her boss every single day, over and over and over again, and wore him down, basically until he was like fine, okay, we'll put you on the air. The story then shifts to a prison interview with troubled teenager Jimmy Emmett, played by Joaquin Phoenix, who shares an intimate story of how Suzanne completely changed the way he physically experiences the weather.

Casey Affleck: 22:34

I never really gave a rat's ass about the weather until I got to know my son Reto.

Pamela Smart: 22:41

Now I take it very serious. If it rains or there's lightning or thunder, or if it's smooth, I have to check off.

Remi: 22:54

Uh, oh right, sorry wow, that does not come across creepy at all in retrospect, I think this was the first thing I ever saw joaquin phoenix in, so this scene was literally my introduction to Joaquin Phoenix and I think it's kind of stuck in the back of my mind ever since. I can never not view him as kind of creepy. In yet another flashback we see Suzanne in a high school classroom speaking to a group of juvenile delinquents as an on-air correspondent from WWEN. Though she tries to maintain her composure, she is heckled relentlessly, especially by one student in particular named Russell Hines, played by Casey Affleck.

To Die For Clip: 23:40

Well, first of all, I would like to thank you all for extending me the courtesy of your time and attention.

Pamela Smart: 23:47

I got something to extend.

To Die For Clip: 23:51

And I would like to say that I hope you'll all be as excited about the project I'm here to propose to you as I am. First of all, I want to ask have any of you actually ever been on television before Not counting home video, of course? No one there was. What's your name, Lili Mertz? And how did it happen that you made this appearance? Oh, it was down at Benson's Electronics. They have this video camera in the window and when you walk by, they take your picture.

Ashley: 24:33

Well, Lydia, this may come as a surprise, but that is how some of our most famous personalities started out just seeing what they looked like accidentally we just watched the extended version of that clip and you can tell that lydia is captivated by suzanne, and that is what happens with the real Lydia and the real Pam Smart.

Remi: 24:55

Suzanne is producing a television documentary for WWEN called Teens Speak Out. She's looking for high school students willing to open up on camera about things like peer pressure, drugs and rap music. Eventually, three teens Jimmy, russell and Lydia all agree to be interviewed by Suzanne and go on to record hundreds of hours of useless footage together, all while Jimmy becomes increasingly infatuated with Suzanne in the process. Meanwhile, back at home, larry is ready to settle down, start a family and build a life together, but Suzanne is laser-focused on her career and feels that children would just get in the way while also causing irreversible damage to her appearance. Eventually, larry voices his frustrations, telling Suzanne that he feels neglected, along with his true feelings that Suzanne will never excel beyond her current position as a local weatherwoman. This moment marks a shift in Suzanne, as she no longer sees Larry as a partner, but now just another obstacle standing in the way of her and her dreams of becoming a star.

Ashley: 26:07

Yeah, that's kind of rough, Larry. She did get to be a weather woman rather quickly, so who knows where she could have gone.

Remi: 26:15

I think Larry wanted more of a stereotypical homemaker wife, someone who would be at home, tending to the kids and cooking and doing that sort of thing. I think that's what he envisioned, and Suzanne is just not that type of woman at all. Over the following weeks, suzanne starts spending more one-on-one time with Lydia and even buys her gifts like perfume and jewelry to win over the teen's affection. In time, lydia begins confiding in Suzanne, sharing secrets she'd never told anyone before until eventually viewing Suzanne as her only real friend. One night, while Larry and his father are out of town together, suzanne invites Lydia and Jimmy over to her house to have a little fun. She kicks things off with some erotic music while dancing provocatively around the two teens before turning her attention entirely towards Jimmy and instructs Lydia to take Walter for a long walk around the block. By the time she returns, suzanne and Jimmy are having sex in the upstairs bedroom.

Remi: 27:20

Suzanne and Jimmy's inappropriate relationship continues after that night and from that point forward they begin spending more and more time together until Jimmy is completely wrapped around Suzanne's finger. One evening the two are parked in Suzanne's car in the middle of a rainstorm and Suzanne starts telling Jimmy elaborate lies about how abusive Larry is and how she wishes she could be with Jimmy instead. Jimmy naturally suggests that she should just get a divorce. Jimmy naturally suggests that she should just get a divorce, but Suzanne insists that she would lose everything, including her condo, car and Walter, all of which were purchased for Suzanne by Larry At a loss. Jimmy opines that a man like Larry doesn't deserve to live and Suzanne agrees. The tone then shifts dramatically when the song Sweet Home Alabama comes on the radio and Suzanne shouts I love this song, then proceeds to crank up the volume, jump out of the car and start dancing in the rain as Jimmy watches from the front seat, completely entranced like a loyal stray dog.

Remi: 28:26

More time passes, with Suzanne continuing to encourage and manipulate Jimmy during their sexual encounters to get rid of Larry so that they can finally be together. Under Suzanne's influence, jimmy eventually borrows Lydia's gun and enlists the help of Russell to help carry out Suzanne's plan. On the night of Larry and Suzanne's one-year wedding anniversary, the happy couple host a joyous celebration with all of their friends and family down at Moreto's restaurant. After the party, larry returns home alone, while Suzanne, as always, heads down to WWEN to deliver her nightly weather report live on air. During the broadcast, jimmy and Russell sneak in through a back door and ambush Larry, beating him repeatedly with a lamp, then robbing him of any valuables as Jimmy holds him at gunpoint. Finally, after several moments of uncertain hesitation, jimmy pulls the trigger, shooting Larry in the head and ending his life just as Suzanne finishes her live TV segment with the following send-off and, if you'll allow me just a personal note, a special greeting to my husband, larry, on this our first anniversary.

Ashley: 29:40

Good night honey, ooh, that is very ominous, and the look she gives to the camera says so much more than her words.

Remi: 29:51

That same night the police are called and both Suzanne and Larry's families are informed of the horrific tragedy.

Remi: 29:58

Side note here when Janice hears the news of her brother Larry's death, she faints and in the following scenes her arm is suddenly in a cast. This was actually written to the script after actress Ileana Douglas broke her thumb while goofing around on set with Matt Dillon. So Gus Van Sant decided to write her injury into the film. As Suzanne and Larry's families all gather to mourn the loss of Larry, suzanne sees this as her time to shine. So instead of retreating in grief, she steps in front of the cameras almost immediately, speaking to the media and giving statements, while soaking in every moment of being in the spotlight. Another side note here Van Sant originally wanted Suzanne to hand out 8x10 glossy headshots of herself to the press the same night as Larry's murder, but thankfully screenwriter Buck Henry talked him out of it, saying that was a bit too far. The media frenzy only intensifies after Larry's funeral and with cameras now pointed squarely at Suzanne, she abruptly cuts off all contact with Jimmy Russell and Lydia in an effort to distance herself and cover her tracks.

Ashley: 31:10

Oh, I don't think she has to distance herself from Lydia. Lydia wasn't involved. Well, I guess it was her dad's gun, so never mind.

Remi: 31:18

That plan quickly unravels, however, as soon as Suzanne learns that the police have already stopped by WWEN and confiscated all of her footage from Teens Speak Out, which Suzanne finds quite vexing. After reviewing the footage, the police zero in on Jimmy and Russell as the prime suspects in Larry's murder, and they are both taken into custody shortly after. Concurrently, the police also uncover the murder weapon after searching Lydia's home, along with a multitude of other incriminating evidence, all of which is revealed to Jimmy during his interrogation over the murder scene.

Pamela Smart: 32:06

You boys did everything to leave a business card.

A Cry in the Dark Trailer: 32:09

There's Larry Moreto's blood all over those shoes you wore. Yeah and pieces of Larry's brains.

Pamela Smart: 32:18

He used to beat her up all the time. He said he was gonna kill her. I'm sure he did. We're going to California because she said I had real potential on TV because of my voice Doing what with your voice Sports, like being a sports announcer. So when did you start banging her? It wasn't like that. What was it like? It was just, we were. You were what. In love.

Ashley: 32:59

Oh, so, so young and naive. It is really sad how people can manipulate troubled kids like this.

Remi: 33:06

And we discussed this before. Something we've learned through doing this podcast is that teenagers are really, really bad at committing crimes and usually get caught almost immediately. Eventually, Jimmy cracks confessing to everything, so the police convince Lydia to set up another meeting with Suzanne while wearing a wire, leading to the following encounter.

To Die For Clip: 33:32

Is it my imagination, or is that die of working huh, meeting with Suzanne while wearing a wire, leading to the following encounter. I just figured that Russell would tell them everything. So, look, no one's going to believe anything Russell or Jimmy say, and they're just a couple of punks. They wouldn't be in this deep shit if they kept their mouths shut. There's no evidence that we're involved. I wasn't anywhere near the house and if they did find out anything, you know they'd be in trouble, don't you? You would. What do you mean? Well, lydia, if you hadn't gone, got your mother's gun. Larry would still be alive, wouldn't he? But you asked me to. No, I didn't. No, jimmy didn't, don't you remember that?

Ashley: 34:22

but you asked, jimmy and you, and you told russell no I must say nicole kidman is doing a really good job here just playing this diabolical woman, all with a bright, bright smile.

Remi: 34:39

Her character is one of the most evil females I have seen in films, and Nicole Kidman nails this performance. She's amazing in this movie. It's her career best, in my opinion. Suzanne is inevitably charged and released on $200,000 bail, which, of course, only fuels the media frenzy surrounding her even further. In her statement to the press, suzanne alleges that while she was making her documentary Teens Speak Out, russell and Jimmy had started a secret relationship with her husband Larry and gotten him addicted to cocaine.

Ashley: 35:19

That is completely absurd.

Remi: 35:22

Well, according to Suzanne, when Larry finally tried to get clean and sober again, russell and Jimmy murdered Larry to keep him from going to the police, which is so far-fetched and ridiculous. Like he was getting clean, so he was going to turn in Russell and Jimmy for selling him cocaine. Side note, joyce Maynard, the author of the book To Die For, makes a small cameo in this scene as Suzanne's lawyer. According to Maynard, she also happened to have her mother's ashes with her during the shoot that day, so tucked the ashes into her prop briefcase for the scene, believing that her mother would have wanted to be a part of the film. The story then shifts back to Suzanne, once again addressing the audience directly, standing in front of a plain white backdrop, calmly wrapping up her version of the events. It is then revealed that her entire monologue had been self-recorded, with Suzanne interviewing herself on camera the entire time, while sitting in front of a window which had a snowy backdrop creating the white background.

Ashley: 36:24

Because of course she did.

Remi: 36:26

After finishing the tape, suzanne heads off to a confidential meeting to negotiate the supposed financial terms of an exclusive deal for the rights to her story. Accompanied by her dog, walter, she arrives at a remote location near a frozen lake, where a mysterious man is already there waiting for her, for her. The two exchange a few brief pleasantries before the man tells Suzanne that there's something he wants to show her, then gently escorts her from the car down a snowy path and out across the frozen ice towards a small, isolated lake house.

Ashley: 37:01

Uh, yeah, I would be running from this meeting. I would be running so fast and so far away.

Remi: 37:06

There are a ton of warning signs, but Suzanne is just so blinded by her hunger for fame that she's ignoring all of them. Side note here the mysterious man in this scene is played by David Cronenberg, legendary director of the Fly Naked Lunch and A History of Violence, who is also friends with Gus Van Sant.

Ashley: 37:30

I have not seen any of those movies.

Remi: 37:33

I think I showed you A History of Violence before, but you were not really into it, from what I recall.

Ashley: 37:40

Oh, is that with Viggo Mortensen?

Remi: 37:42

Yes, that's the one.

Ashley: 37:43

Okay, I have seen that. I did like it. It's just a little slow.

Remi: 37:47

I really enjoy that film. Recommend for that movie as well. The Fly is not really my cup of tea because it's pretty disgusting and, honestly, so is Naked Lunch. Cronenberg is kind of known for doing a lot of weird gross body horror stuff in his films, so I prefer his films like A History of Violence, which don't focus on that as much. Later that night, Larry's father receives a phone call at his restaurant from the same mysterious man speaking in untranslated Italian, while in the background Walter the dog can be seen barking uncontrollably from inside the man's vehicle. We then return to the lake, where the camera glides slowly across the ice, revealing Suzanne's lifeless body frozen just beneath the surface.

Ashley: 38:34

So Larry's family did have mafia ties all along.

Remi: 38:39

That is, the big implication and twist of this film is that Larry's family did end up being part of the mafia or at least having connections to the mob in some way. Side note here that final shot of Suzanne under the ice originally used a dummy, but the ice wasn't clear enough and it didn't look right, so they moved the shoot into a studio, applied bluish makeup to Nicole Kidman, sprayed her clothing and hair down with ice crystals and placed a specially built etched plexiglass sheet over her which was about 30 feet long, so that the camera had enough room to dolly across it.

Ashley: 39:17

Does it look real?

Remi: 39:18

It looks exceptionally real. I was very surprised to learn that this was Nicole Kidman laying there motionless under plexiglass. I had always assumed it was a dummy. As for the others, jimmy is sentenced to life in prison plus an additional 30 years, while Russell cut a plea deal and only got 16 years In the end. With Suzanne gone, lydia is embraced by the press and becomes a proverbial media darling, appearing regularly on talk shows and being interviewed by major broadcasters like Oprah Winfrey and that was Gus Van Sant's. To Die For Any initial reactions, ashley.

Ashley: 39:59

I know I say this pretty frequently about movies I haven't seen before, but I really mean it this time. I want to watch this movie very badly. The clips he showed me were super fun and funny and it just sounds like everyone had a blast filming this, except maybe walking Phoenix. I'm assuming he did. But he's the only character in this movie that just kind of seems like depressed and angsty the whole time, and rightfully so. That's his character, but it just looks and sounds like a very fun, entertaining, relatively lighthearted given the subject matter, comedic film.

Remi: 40:36

We have discussed this previously about the possibility of doing like a movie marathon, you and me, where we watch all of the films that we've covered on this podcast that you haven't seen yet, and then maybe doing a bonus episode where we get your thoughts and feelings on them.

Remi: 40:53

So if that's something the audience is interested in, please let us know. I also wanted to say that during my research for this, there were a lot of interviews that took place in more recent times with the cast and crew looking back on the experience of making this film, and Joaquin Phoenix was the only one who never participated in any of them. So I think Joaquin was just kind of off in his own little world while they were making this, but everyone else seemed to have a really enjoyable time making this movie.

Ashley: 41:23

Well, isn't he kind of notorious for not really doing a lot of media appearances? I know he has done some in recent years for movies. I know, Eddington, he was on the press tour but we kind of speculated that that was forced upon him because of the negative publicity that he was trying to come off of for the Joker 2 and that other movie that he pretty much tanked by withdrawing.

Remi: 41:47

He is a weird guy from everything that I have learned about him throughout the years, and it does seem like doing interviews and that sort of thing makes him very uncomfortable. I even saw a clip of him on the Theo Vaughn podcast and the first thing that Theo says to him, joaquin Phoenix responds by saying that question made me really uncomfortable. I really don't know how to proceed from here. Like what a way to start an interview.

Remi: 42:13

I just don't think he's comfortable with that sort of thing. But his performance is phenomenal and he is still one of the best actors working today.

Ashley: 42:21

Even with Eddington, which is getting pretty mixed reviews from the critics out there, you can't argue that he does anything short of what you would expect Joaquin Phoenix to do on screen. He steals the show.

Remi: 42:36

And he is brilliant at playing the types of characters in this film that are just a bit off, a bit uncomfortable, a bit socially awkward. He's just the master of that and I think he's probably like that in real life too. But yeah, this was one of the films that started his journey into Eddington and Joker and Bo is Afraid and all the crazy movies he still makes today. What happened with this movie post-release? I am very curious to find out. Can's Film Festival and was met with widespread critical acclaim, with Nicole Kidman's performance in particular being hailed as a career-defining role.

Ashley: 43:16

Does out of competition mean it wasn't eligible for any of the awards?

Remi: 43:21

Exactly, they were just screening it. They were not trying to win anything. The film currently holds an 89% approval rating on Rotten Tomatoes, with a critical consensus that reads smart, funny and thoroughly well-cast To Die For takes a sharp and sadly present stab at dissecting America's obsession with celebrity. Like I mentioned at the beginning, this was also one of two films starring Nicole Kidman released that same year, with the other being the cinematic classic Batman Forever, directed by Joel Schumacher.

Ashley: 43:53

Which everyone shits on, but we rewatched it not too long ago and I gotta say it's a really fun movie.

Remi: 44:01

Batman is my favorite superhero. I've always been a Batman guy and I have a soft spot for every single one of the movies, even Batman and Robin, which I remember hating when it came out. I view it all differently now and they all have their right place. And yeah, batman Forever is awesome Don't listen to any naysayers At the box office To Die For grossed $21 million in the US and Canada and $41 million worldwide, so not a huge hit, but I think that's understandable for a film like this.

Remi: 44:33

Kidman swept multiple Best Actress awards, earning honors from the Boston Society of Film Critics Critics' Choice Awards, golden Globes, london Film Critics Circle, empire Awards and the Seattle International Film Festival. She was also nominated for both a BAFTA and a Saturn Award. Ileana Douglas received several nominations for Best Supporting Actress and took third place with the National Society of Film Critics. Joaquin Phoenix also earned a nomination for Best Supporting Actor at the Clotrudis Awards, which I've never heard of. However, despite the praise, multiple nominations and a Golden Globe win, nicole Kidman was not nominated for an Oscar. After the snub, kidman received a written note from actor Sean Penn that simply read you were robbed. Kidman later said that Penn's letter meant just as much to her as an Oscar nomination, and the two later went on to star together in the 2005 film the Interpreter.

Ashley: 45:37

Well, she gets her Oscars plural later down the line.

Remi: 45:41

The Academy does not like giving actresses awards for playing evil characters like this. For some reason, it's usually more inspirational characters or women that have just gone through a lot of hardships in their life. It's very rarely a femme fatale or an evil woman of some sort like in this film. Kidman's performance in To Die For also had a ripple effect across Hollywood. Reese Witherspoon said it directly inspired her to take on the role of Tracy Flick in the 1999 film Election, and Charlize Theron cited To Die For as the reason she signed on for the 2011 film Young Adult, and I must say those actresses are phenomenal in both of those films and they are two of their best performances. Additionally, rosamund Pike claimed to have studied Kidman's performance while preparing for her role in the 2014 film Gone Girl.

Ashley: 46:37

You can really see the inspiration in Election with Reese Witherspoon.

Remi: 46:43

I think that's where I noticed it the most and that came out much closer to the time that this film was released, and I really think Reese took a lot of inspiration from Nicole's performance. Their characters are both sociopaths in very, very different ways. After working together on To Die For Casey Affleck brought director Gus Van Sant a screenplay written by his brother Ben and Matt Damon. That script was, of course, good Will Hunting, which became Van Sant's next film, so in a way, damon and Affleck owe their entire careers to little Casey Affleck landing his breakout role in this very film.

Ashley: 47:23

Well, good thing they repaid him by casting him in that movie as well.

Remi: 47:27

And that was Gus Van Sant's To Die For a film that is in my top 20 and a career best for Nicole Kidman. However, I do not know a lot about Pamela Smart, the real person that this character is based on, and I think that is where you come in, Ashley.

Ashley: 47:52

Yes, let's all learn about the legendary media sensation. Pamela Ann Voyas was born on August 16, 1967 in Coral Gables, florida, and raised in Miami with her two siblings. When she was in middle school, john and Linda grew concerned about the rising crime rate and moved the family to Wynnham, new Hampshire. Linda made sure her kids stayed busy with extracurriculars like piano, dance and gymnastics. John, who worked his way up the ranks to become a jet pilot for Delta Airlines who would have thought we'd have two pilots kicking off season five believed in a strong work ethic and expected his children to get jobs as soon as they were able.

Ashley: 48:42

From a young age, Pam was known as a natural-born leader, organizer and center of attention. In high school she was a cheerleader for the basketball and football teams, a Spanish tutor on the honor roll and active in the Students Against Drunk Driving Committee. She was even elected class president in the 10th grade, though that didn't go entirely smoothly. School administrators started to suspect she rigged the election, skimmed money from class funds and drank on school grounds. Since these allegations could hurt her college prospects, the principal struck a deal with her parents the incident would stay out of her permanent record if she agreed to not run for office again. Another thing everyone remembered about Pam was her obsession with Van Halen. For a school talent show, she and a group of friends dressed up and lip-synced to Unchained. To top it off, her senior yearbook quote detailed her goal of one day dancing with David Lee Roth. Pam always fantasized about becoming a TV reporter and the next Barbara Walters. In pursuit of this dream, she enrolled in the communications program at Florida State University in 1985. During winter break she went to a house party and hit it off with the host, gregory William Smart.

Ashley: 50:03

Pam fell hard for Greg and stayed in touch through letters, long-distance phone calls and Valentine's Day and spring break visits. Greg, on the other hand, wasn't looking for anything serious. He casually dated other women, at least until the summer of 1986 when he and Pam joined a group of friends on a trip to Vermont. From then on they were inseparable. In early 1987, he surprised everyone by announcing he was moving to Florida to be with her. Though they lived separately, they spent nearly all their free time together.

Ashley: 50:38

Greg worked construction and picked up other manual labor jobs. In between classes. Pam worked part-time as a clerk for the Florida Department of Commerce, accepted an unpaid internship at a local CBS News affiliate, hosted a two-hour heavy metal radio show called Metal Madness on FSU's campus station and served as the station's promotions director. Thanks to her connections, she often scored backstage passes to major concerts. One of those shows, of course, was Van Halen and led to the highlight moment of a photo with her, greg and Eddie Van Halen.

Ashley: 51:18

Pam and Greg moved in together and got engaged in January 1988. He left the landscaping business to pursue a career in insurance, a path he knew could be more lucrative because his dad worked in the field. After Pam graduated cum laude in just three years, he suggested they move back to New Hampshire. Unlike Pam, he preferred winter sports to sunny Florida life and believed he'd have better opportunities working under his dad's guidance at Metropolitan Life Insurance. Pam wasn't ecstatic about the move but after being rejected from every local news station, she made the difficult decision to put her career dreams on hold to focus on building a life with Greg. That summer she was hired as a media director for the local school district. It wasn't TV news reporting, but it scratched the surface.

Remi: 52:11

You gotta start somewhere.

Ashley: 52:13

She wrote press releases and newsletter features, purchased media equipment and ran workshops teaching high school students how to use it. Though she was fresh out of college, she was the ideal hire Intelligent, energetic, friendly and eager to learn. Greg worked flexible hours at MetLife, thrived in his new role and was even named Rookie Salesman of the Year. By all accounts, he was easygoing, well-liked, deeply in love with Pam and very close to his dad. Pam and Greg lived with his parents until they downsized to a condo in Derry in January 1989. Pam and Greg rented their own place just five minutes away. They had an extravagant wedding on May 7, 1989, and honeymooned in Bermuda To outsiders. They were the perfect couple Young, successful and in love.

Ashley: 53:08

But, as we know, things aren't always what they seem. From the beginning, the Smarts were destined to clash. They both had strong egos, different interests and enjoyed being the center of attention. Despite their differences, they wanted their marriage to work. They ate out once or twice a week, hit up all the major clubs and often went on trips together, with and without friends. Pam's office was across the parking lot from Winnicunet High School in Hampton, new Hampshire. To kick off the school year, pam volunteered to co-lead Project Esteem, a three-day drug and alcohol program designed for incoming freshmen. On the first day she met three student volunteers.

Remi: 53:51

So was this sort of like a DARE program?

Ashley: 53:53

That's what it sounds like. It was only for incoming freshmen and it was short, so I think it was kind of viewed as a prevention program to try to discourage new students from using drugs and alcohol. On the first day Pam met three student volunteers 16-year-old Billy Flynn, who is Jimmy in the movie played by Joaquin Phoenix. 17-year-old Vance JR Lattime, which is Russell, played by Casey Affleck, and 15 year old Cecilia Pierce, who is Lydia. The moment Billy saw Pam, he turned to his best friend and said he was in love. And he wasn't the only student drawn to the energetic 22 year old. Plenty of boys flirted with her during the program. But Billy made a point to always end up in her breakout groups. During the next three days they bonded over their shared love of heavy metal, which I'm kind of sad that they didn't incorporate heavy metal more into the movie. It would have been really funny to have Nicole Kidman's character also just be a big metalhead who is obsessed with Van Halen.

Remi: 55:01

Heavy metal is incorporated into the soundtrack. When Jimmy first lays eyes on Suzanne when she's coming into the school, heavy metal music is blaring over the soundtrack. But I agree, I think that would have been a good thing to add to give her and Jimmy a bit more of a connection.

Ashley: 55:19

Their shared interest gave Billy the comfort to open up about the loss of his father. Cecilia was also drawn to Pam, but for different reasons. Shy and insecure, she was fascinated by this confident, cool adult who seemed so different from anyone she'd ever known. Over the 1989-1990 school year, pam's relationship with Billy and Cecilia intensified and ultimately led to the murder of 24-year-old Greg Smart. But before we get to that, let's take a closer look at some of the students central to this story. Many of the kids at Winnicunnet High School lived in Seabrook, a small, low-income community with a high unemployment and dropout rate. Billy Flynn was one of them. He was born on March 12, 1974 in Southern California. He grew up in the desert and spent his early years riding dirt bikes and playing with litters of Springer Spaniel puppies his parents occasionally bred, which, I must say, sounds like a dream childhood.

Remi: 56:21

Sounds pretty adorable, yeah.

Ashley: 56:23

He was shy, quiet and reserved, the kind of kid who never had many friends. He also had a creative side. He loved to doodle and taught himself how to play guitar. But Billy's home life was a tense one. His parents argued frequently most often about what his mother, elaine, viewed as harsh, overbearing treatment from Bill Flynn. Bill demanded perfection from his three kids, but he was the hardest on Billy. One story paints a clear picture. When Billy was just three years old, he offered to help his dad wash the car. His only task was to clean the back window, but what should have been a sweet father-son moment turned into a stressful ordeal as his dad made him wash it over and, over and over until it was completely spotless. This kid is three. Come on, dude.

Remi: 57:17

And it is almost impossible to get windows like that completely spotless. I mean the angles that you'd need to get in there like that completely spotless.

Ashley: 57:25

I mean the angles that you'd need to get in there. Another example came in the first grade, when Billy brought home a note from school about his messy handwriting. His father responded by forcing him to rewrite the alphabet and numbers 1 through 10 again and again until Billy broke down in tears. In September 1986, elaine Flynn filed for divorce and moved the kids to New Hampshire to be closer to her family. Billy was 12 and furious. He didn't want to leave California or his dad.

Ashley: 57:55

That Christmas his father visited for 10 days. He seemed like a changed man, more patient, affectionate and relaxed. Encouraged by the visit, elaine agreed to let the boys spend the summer with him in California. But that reunion never came. Billy's dad died in a drunk driving accident just weeks later. Billy started to come out of his shell a few years after his father's death, thanks in large part to two classmates, jr Latim and Patrick Pete Randall. Jr's mobile home was the crew's go-to hangout spot. His parents, vance and Diane, welcomed neighborhood teens like they were family and owned a good stretch of property where the kids could run around. Billy JR and Pete spent most of their free time blasting heavy metal music, working on cars and stealing the occasional radio from unlocked vehicles around town.

Remi: 58:51

There is a scene in the film where the gang is hanging out in one of those car graveyards playing heavy metal music. So I wonder if that was an homage to this if that was an homage to this.

Ashley: 59:07

It sounded like they had a lot of dumpy cars on the property and the kids would work to fix them up and do just that just hang out, listening to music, just shooting the shit. As I previously mentioned, pam's relationships with Billy and Cecilia didn't end after Project Esteem wrapped. Cecilia, who developed an interest in becoming a news anchor, became Pam's intern while Billy dropped by her office during lunch or study hall. In December 1989, cecilia came across a flyer for an annual high school video competition sponsored by the Florida Department of Citrus. The assignment Create a commercial highlighting the nutritional benefits of orange juice. Excited by the idea, cecilia showed the flyer to Pam and the two started recruiting. In the end, only Billy and Cecilia's friend Karen signed on, but the group threw themselves into it. Throughout January 1990, they met several times a week to film. Billy mostly handled the camera work, but everyone took turns acting. Pam even dressed up in a skimpy leopard print outfit to play a cavewoman in one scene.

Remi: 1:00:14

This sounds like me and my friends making movies together back in high school.

Ashley: 1:00:18

And you will not believe this, but I found the commercial. There's a 2020 documentary that featured a lot of Pam's initial interviews with the press, as well as a clip from this commercial, so let's take a listen.

Pamela Smart: 1:00:32

It definitely has a homemade look to it, but that song is kind of catchy.

Ashley: 1:00:54

Not as cute as.

Remi: 1:00:55

Judith Barsi's orange juice commercial, though who would have thought we'd ever discuss orange juice commercials twice during the course of our podcast?

Ashley: 1:01:01

After the filming sessions, Pam often treated the kids to meals or took them to local hangout spots, including an underage club called Sneakers.

Remi: 1:01:10

There was an underage club in my town called Secrets, which is very similar sounding.

Ashley: 1:01:16

We had two we had in middle school. There was one called like the Z Dance or something, and it was just at a rec center. And then in high school there was one called the Hoop dance or something, and it was just at a rec center. And then in high school there was one called the hoop, which was actually downtown Portland and a little more cool. As production continued, billy began spending more and more time in Pam's office, although they didn't win any prize for their commercial efforts.

Ashley: 1:01:39

Pam's relationship with the teens, especially Billy, had intensified. The winter months weren't all fun games and orange juice, though Behind closed doors. The Smart's marriage began to unravel. Greg's work schedule often kept him out late in the evening, something Pam grew increasingly frustrated with. She wanted him to leave the insurance business altogether, but he refused because he genuinely enjoyed the work. Their differences, which once seemed manageable, started to create a divide. Greg liked golfing, gambling and four-wheeling, while Pam was more focused on reading newspapers and taking classes to further her career. Greg also drank more heavily than she did and began going to parties without her. Several acquaintances recalled incidents where, after drinking too much, he spat beer in her face when he grew annoyed of her complaints.

Remi: 1:02:35

That is inexcusable.

Ashley: 1:02:37

It's insanely disrespectful. While there's no evidence of physical abuse beyond that, some friends later said they were vaguely aware of arguments after he returned from nights out. There were also rumors of a drunken one-night stand in late December On his part, not hers. Despite their growing discord the couple kept up appearances. To most people they looked happy. In February 1990, greg even talked about wanting to buy a house and start a family Clear signs he still saw a future with Pam. But her vision was shifting. She seemed distant and started coming home late, often without explanation.

Ashley: 1:03:17

By March Greg was getting suspicious. One night after Pam said she was working late, he and a friend decided to investigate. Her car was not in the parking lot and she got an earful when she pulled in 20 minutes later. In March and April Greg began making quiet comments to friends about marital issues and hinted at infidelity and possible divorce. Those close to the couple brushed it off, assuming they had just hit a rough patch. Turns out Greg's suspicions about Pam's whereabouts were spot on. While working on the orange juice commercial, pam began openly venting about her relationship troubles, going as far as to accuse Greg of verbal and physical abuse. As Billy's feelings for Pam deepened, so too did his hate for her husband. During the first week of February 1990, she gave him several photos of her posing in a bikini and confessed her love for him to both Billy and Cecilia. Soon after their relationship turned physical, after their first kiss on Billy's waterbed, which is so 1990s.

Ashley: 1:04:26

Pam openly smooched him in front of his friends. When she dropped him off, made plans for an overnight visit and dropped a bombshell she wanted Greg dead. She was adamant. Divorce wasn't an option because he would take everything, including her beloved shih tzu Halen, and he wouldn't let her move on. Blinded by lust, Billy initially blew off her repeated talks of murder, later claiming he thought she was just joking. But that all changed around Valentine's Day in 1990.

Ashley: 1:05:04

While Greg was away on a ski trip, pam invited Billy and Cecilia to her condo for the evening. After watching a movie, pam led him upstairs, slipped into new white lingerie, danced to Van Halen and had sex with the 15-year-old boy. As she drove him home that next morning, she dropped a devastating bombshell. As she drove him home that next morning, she dropped a devastating bombshell. Last night would be the first and last time they'd have sex, since Greg didn't go away. Often the heartbroken teen protested and through tears he finally agreed to help her carry out the murder of her husband, since it was the only way they could be together. Over the ensuing weeks, pam and Billy exchanged explicit love notes and had sex all over the place. At least a dozen teens heard about the affair, because Billy enjoyed sharing all the steamy details with his closest friends Amidst their secret rendezvous. Talks of Greg's murder was never far from their minds. Through daily conversations, pam hatched a plan Billy would kill Greg while she was at a school board meeting and make it look like a botched robbery.

Ashley: 1:06:10

In March 1990, billy told Pete and JR about the plot but, like Cecilia, they didn't think he was serious and refused to get involved Without warning. At the end of March, pam told Billy tonight was the night Before leaving for one of three upcoming school board meetings that she didn't even have to attend. She told him she'd leave the back door unlocked and wait in her office until she got word. The job was done. Billy was completely unprepared. He had no weapons, no car and made no effort to get either. No car and made no effort to get either.

Ashley: 1:06:43

Just after 10 o'clock he broke the news that Greg was still alive. Pam was furious. She screamed that he didn't love her and told him it was over for good. The next day Billy kept his distance until Cecilia beckoned him to Pam's office where she apologized for her outburst and told him he'd have another chance in about a month. About a week later, 18-year-old Raymond Fowler was at JR's house visiting his cousin Ralph Wentz, a friend of JR's who was staying with him at the time. Fowler had recently been released from jail after doing a few months for receiving stolen property. He volunteered to help murder Greg in exchange for $1,000 and all the stolen loot he could carry.

Ashley: 1:07:38

Later, when JR gets involved, one of the things he really, really, really wants and does eventually get is a stereo.

Remi: 1:07:45

Well, that's kind of close.

Ashley: 1:07:47

Fowler also thought it would be better if he did the killing, since Billy would be the primary suspect if the police found out about the affair.

Remi: 1:07:55

Wow, this guy is really jumping into this.

Ashley: 1:07:58

Well, despite volunteering for the role, he later testified that he never actually intended to kill anyone and just thought the job was going to be a simple violence-free burglary. In mid-April 1990, fowler and Billy picked up Pam's car while she was at her meeting and drove to a drugstore to buy latex gloves. They still didn't have any weapons, since Fowler convinced Billy it would just be best to use whatever knife they found in the kitchen. After grabbing their last supplies, billy got cold feet and began purposefully giving Fowler inaccurate directions. Eventually, fowler realized the error, got directions from a gas station attendant and pulled into the condo at 10 o'clock, only to find that Greg was already home.

Remi: 1:08:42

So Billy was trying to literally steer him in the wrong direction.

Ashley: 1:08:46

Yeah, he gave him the opposite direction, so they started driving out of town. And that's when Fowler was like wait, you said the condo was in Derry. We're approaching the border.

Remi: 1:08:56

It sounds like Billy really really did not want to go through with this.

Ashley: 1:09:07

And he is the only person really in this story for a very, very long time that comes across as believably remorseful and genuinely distraught and regretful about what he did. From the second he gets caught, all the way until he's paroled the years later.

Remi: 1:09:21

Well, it seems like he was a impressionable teenager that was being manipulated by an older woman.

Ashley: 1:09:29

Once again Pam did not take the news well but assured Billy he had one last chance on May 1st 1990, six days before her one-year wedding anniversary.

Remi: 1:09:41

They are getting so many signs to stop and not continue forward, but Pam will not let this go.

Ashley: 1:09:50

For reasons that remain not entirely clear, jr and Pete agreed to help Billy after his second failed quote-unquote attempt on Greg's life.

Remi: 1:10:00

I would hardly call any of these so far an attempt.

Ashley: 1:10:04

Yeah, that's why I put attempt in quotes. These weren't attempts. The first time he didn't even get in the car and go, and the second time he purposefully botched it.

Remi: 1:10:13

Yeah, the most he's done so far is taken a car ride.

Ashley: 1:10:17

Later JR and Pete said they agreed to help because they were worried Billy was going to get caught, didn't think anyone would actually get hurt and just wanted some extra cash. With more people involved, the timeline for the night fell into place. Fowler and JR would wait at the getaway car JR's grandma's yellow Chevy Impala while Pete and Billy went inside.

Remi: 1:10:40

That is not a very discreet getaway vehicle.

Ashley: 1:10:44

Pete said he would stab Greg with whatever knife they could find in the house, while Billy carried a revolver owned by JR's dad as backup. Pam told the boys where she kept her jewelry, or at least the cheap costume pieces she was willing to part with, instructed them to immediately put her dog in the basement and warned them not to get any blood on her furniture.

Remi: 1:11:06

This woman is ridiculous.

Ashley: 1:11:09

Come late afternoon on May 1st, the four teens bought scotch tape from a shopping plaza to cover their fingertips underneath the leftover latex gloves. Just in case they passed time at a pizza parlor, changed into dark clothing and waited for the sun to go down. When the moment came, billy and Pete entered the apartment, ransacked the place to make it look like a robbery and waited near the front door for Greg's return. As soon as he walked in, pete sprang out and attacked the boys, took turns, assaulting Greg as he begged for his life. Then Billy raised the revolver and shot him once in the head. The two bolted from the scene, running as fast as they could. Back to the getaway car. The group sped off, tossed their clothes out along the way, examined as fast as they could. Back to the getaway car. The group sped off, tossed their clothes out along the way, examined their haul of cheap, worthless costume jewelry and went their separate ways.

Ashley: 1:12:07

At 10.10 pm on May 1st, pam pulled into the garage of her condo in her silver Honda adorned with a vanity plate that read, of course, Halen. She was careful not to touch her husband's body before sprinting to her neighbor's door screaming for help. The next call was to Greg's parents, bill and Judy Smart. The neighbor urged them to come immediately because their son was quote very, very sick. Law enforcement quickly arrived, secured the scene and took Pam's statement. The widow appeared shaken up but noticeably dry-eyed as she recounted her evening and the gruesome discovery. She suggested Greg interrupted a burglary and wondered aloud if she might have forgotten to lock the back door before she left. That evening. At first glance, the state of the home supported this theory evening. At first glance, the state of the home supported this theory, but it didn't explain why Greg's wallet, keys and wedding ring, in addition to two other rings, were left underneath his body.

Remi: 1:13:03

In the film, larry or Greg refuses to give the robbers his wedding ring, and that's what ends with them shooting him.

Ashley: 1:13:12

And I think that is accurate. I saw in a couple places that they did ask for Greg's ring, but he refused to take it off. The morning after the murder, billy, pete and JR went to school like any other day. By the end of it, billy already confided in another friend about the crime. Cecilia, on the other hand, had no idea what happened the night before, at least until the guidance counselor called her, billy and JR into her office to break the news. She also confided in a co-worker after school and, like Billy's friend, they decided it was best to not get involved.

Ashley: 1:13:49

That same day, pam returned to the police station for a follow-up interview. She firmly denied having any marital or financial problems and investigators allowed her back into the condo to collect some essentials and select burial clothing for Greg. Despite the gravity of the moment, she seemed oddly unaffected. She complained about the fingerprint dust coating her furniture and when it came time to choose an outfit for Greg's burial, she carelessly grabbed the first mismatched and inappropriate items in his drawer until his parents stepped in. Greg's wake was held two days after his murder. Pam played the role of a grieving widow, switching from sobbing one moment to calm, and collected the next. Cecilia, billy and JR even made a brief appearance. The most dramatic moment came when a dispute broke out over the casket. Greg's family wanted it open for viewing, but Pam refused to enter the room until they agreed to close it at the end.

Remi: 1:14:50

In the film during Larry's funeral, suzanne takes a boombox and plays the song All by Myself as a tribute to her late husband, which obviously Larry's family finds disrespectful.

Ashley: 1:15:06

Well, when Pam finally did go in to pay her respects, she threw herself on top of the casket so hard that it almost toppled over and sobbed uncontrollably until she was physically pulled away 15 to 20 minutes later.

Remi: 1:15:21

She's making a show of it and going a bit overboard.

Ashley: 1:15:25

Over 200 people attended Greg's funeral, while a crowd of reporters and photographers gathered across the street. Despite being advised to not talk to the press, Pam granted virtually every interview request that came her way in the week following her husband's death. Here's a clip of her first televised interview that she gave just six days after he was killed, which also happened to be their one-year wedding anniversary.

Pamela Smart: 1:15:53

I feel like in a whole condominium complex like ours, somebody must have seen or heard which also happened to be their one-year wedding anniversary.

Remi: 1:16:01

She didn't shed a single tear in that interview which is also something that Nicole Kidman does in the film never cries for her deceased husband.

Ashley: 1:16:33

And I don't like to chastise someone for how they react to trauma, because everyone knows by this point that everyone reacts to things differently and you're never going to know how you are going to act when a situation happens. But in every interview I watched of Pamela Smart from here on until her last one in 2023. She just comes across as so just cold matter of fact and detached.

Remi: 1:17:01

Agreed. There's like no conviction or emotion or empathy or anything in the way that she looks or sounds at all. It's literally just blank.

Ashley: 1:17:12

Yeah, even her facial expression. There's just nothing there. She's like a robot.

Remi: 1:17:17

It's like she's reading off of cue cards.

Ashley: 1:17:20

In other interviews, pam claimed she wanted the public to know the truth about Greg and the investigation, since the police still seem to be exploring theories involving drugs or gambling debts. She stuck to her burglary gone wrong story and even gave detailed descriptions of the crime scene and items she believed were missing. Investigators pleaded with her to stop and even asked her parents to intervene, but Pan was relentless. After a week of this behavior they made the decision to stop giving her and her family any updates about the investigation. Throughout May 1990, pan began giving away or dropping off Greg's belongings at his parents' house, typically in large garbage bags. She took a few days off work and stayed with her parents, but quickly grew restless and started looking for a place of her own. Using some of Greg's $140,000 life insurance policy, she bought a new car, rented a condo and returned to life as usual, including rekindling her relationship with Billy Flynn. She updated him and Cecilia on the murder investigation, but warned Billy not to share any details with her. Meanwhile, the police followed up on every possible lead. They circulated photos of the stolen jewelry to local pawn shops, pulled the smarts' phone records, compiled a list of everyone who had been in and out of the house and even interviewed Greg's ex-girlfriends, but nothing led anywhere. Nearly everyone they spoke to described Greg and Pam as the picture-perfect couple. But she did remain on the suspect list. And then the case took a turn. An anonymous caller, later identified as 39-year-old Lois Coleman, phoned with information about the murder. Just before making the call, cecilia's co-worker told her the teenager knew a woman from Derry who had her husband killed for life insurance money. Unlike others who caught wind of the crime, lois sprang into action. She gave Cecilia's name and said she believed the widow in question had been planning the murder for four or five weeks. Speaking with Celia was now top priority. The first interview took place on May 21, 1990. She talked about her friendship with Pam and admitted to staying at her house while Greg was away, but insisted she had no knowledge of any crime. It wasn't much, but it would have to do for now. Investigators now had their sights set squarely on Pamela Smart.

Ashley: 1:19:56

Ralph Welch JR's friend, temporary housemate and Raymond Fowler's cousin was working on his car the afternoon of June 9th when he overheard another kid telling Pete that Billy needed to stop running his mouth about killing someone. That night Ralph confronted the boys about the comment. They denied everything at first, but quickly confessed and told him the full story. To their surprise, ralph was horrified and wanted to tell someone right away. After a physical altercation with Pete, a visibly shaken Ralph went to JR's parents and told them their son used his father's gun to kill someone.

Ashley: 1:20:36

Dance and Vance Latim were only able to piece together that a shooting had occurred, but they could see how deeply distressed Ralph was. They knew something happened. They just didn't yet grasp the severity of the situation. With gun in hand, the Latims went to the police station the following day. Meanwhile Pete and JR rushed to Pam's condo to update Billy on Ralph's reaction. Billy called him and tried to brush off the confession as a wild story, but Ralph wasn't buying it. The rest of the day quickly spiraled. Pete, jr and Billy briefly fled to Connecticut, but returned home a few hours later at the behest of their parents. Raymond Fowler was the first to show up at the police station. He waived his right to an attorney and told investigators everything, though he minimized his involvement. Ralph also told investigators everything that he had since learned.

Ralph: 1:21:32

So they went there and they broke into the place and they set it up to make it look like a burglary and I guess the guy tried to run or something and they grabbed him. They threw his dog in the cellar. Pete said he held the guy's head and the dog shot him.

Ashley: 1:21:51

By the end of the evening JR confessed to his parents that Billy did in fact kill Greg Smart. Hoping to shield their son, they took him to the police station and asked to speak with a juvenile officer they trusted. They realized the gravity of the situation when their request was denied and immediately hired an attorney. Billy returned home last. He threw away all the pictures and keepsakes from Pam, while his mother also reached out to legal counsel. By 8 o'clock on June 11, 1990, billy, jr and Pete were all in police custody.

Ashley: 1:22:25

The next morning Pam started frantically calling anyone she thought might know more about the arrests, including the Derry Police Department, attorney General's Office and Victim Advocate Center. She was contacted by multiple news outlets but offered little more than a brief statement expressing how shocked and devastated she was by the news. On June 14th, cecilia finally came clean about the affair and murder plot and gave a full taped statement. The next afternoon, while the case against Pam was building, investigators wanted more and persuaded her to call Pam on a tapped line. During the June 19th phone conversation, pam didn't incriminate herself directly, possibly because she suspected her phone line might be monitored. Still, she subtly tried to manipulate Cecilia into staying quiet and avoiding contact with law enforcement.

Ashley: 1:23:19

This conversation raised eyebrows but wasn't enough to secure a conviction. Despite maintaining her composure on the phone, pam's behavior began to strike those close to her as strange. She frequently expressed sympathy for the arrested teens and returned to speaking with the press about the investigation. She was interviewed by police again not long after the wiretap. She seemed focused on convincing them that they had the wrong suspects, insisting the boys couldn't have committed such a brutal crime. Shortly after, she retained an attorney under the guise that it was just in case, she decided to sue the media for libel.

Remi: 1:23:58

That is a bold move trying to stand up for the teenagers if you are Pamela Smart in this situation.

Ashley: 1:24:05

She told several people she wanted to go visit them and even sent Billie's mom anonymously like a mixtape of songs prominently featuring Van Halen that she wanted the mom to give to Billy.

Remi: 1:24:19

Yeah, all this would come across extremely questionable to basically anyone.

Ashley: 1:24:25

While wearing a wire. Cecilia met Pam at her office on July 12th and 13th. During both conversations Pam made several incriminating statements about the affair, acknowledged that the murder was staged to look like a burglary and claimed she didn't force anyone to do anything, all while continuing to pressure Cecilia into secrecy. The next few weeks were particularly difficult for Bill and Judy Smart. The next few weeks were particularly difficult for Bill and Judy Smart. Though they were certain Pam played a role in their son's murder, investigators asked them to maintain the appearance of normalcy for a little longer. This meant continuing to speak with Pam and treat her as their grieving daughter-in-law whenever they crossed paths.

Remi: 1:25:10

I would not be able to do this. I would be too overcome with emotion.

Ashley: 1:25:16

Finally, on August 1st, pamela Smart was arrested and charged with first-degree murder, accomplice to first-degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder. A charge of witness tampering was added two weeks later. During the next few months, cecilia gave two interviews for $1,300 and sold the life rates to her story to Once Upon a Time Productions for $2,000, with a promise of more if a movie was ever made. Meanwhile, despite the growing evidence against all four defendants, none of the boys were willing to talk or testify against each other. In early January 1991, the DA dropped another bombshell. Pam was being indicted on another case for charges of criminal solicitation to commit murder, criminal solicitation to commit tampering with a witness and tampering with a witness. These new charges stemmed from allegations that she approached a fellow inmate in search of a hitman to kill Cecilia. It was also announced that the three juvenile defendants would be tried as adults.

Ashley: 1:26:24

A few weeks later, pete, jr and Billy accepted plea deals in exchange for their testimony against her. On January 28, 1991, billy and Pete were convicted of second-degree murder and sentenced to life in prison with the possibility of parole after 28 to 40 years. Jr was convicted as an accomplice to second-degree murder and sentenced to life with the possibility of parole after 18 to 30 years. Raymond Fowler was also finally arrested and charged with attempted murder, conspiracy to commit murder and tampering with physical evidence. In October 1991, he pled guilty to conspiracy to murder and attempted burglary and was sentenced to 30 years with the possibility of parole after 15. The two-week trial of Pamela Smart began on March 5, 1991.

Remi: 1:27:16

It was only two weeks. That's surprising considering the media circus that was surrounding it. The OJ trial was like almost a year.

Ashley: 1:27:25

And, like you said, it was a media sensation, that is for sure. It was covered by news outlets across the world and, as we mentioned earlier, became the first criminal trial in the United States to be broadcasted live on TV.

Remi: 1:27:40

Do you have any idea why this case was the one that was the first to be allowed on television like this?

Ashley: 1:27:48

I'm not really sure. If I'm speculating, it's because the media had just some fascination about it because it was a young, successful wife who had a young lover and that was just something that captivated the news outlets and they maybe pushed saying that it should be televised because of the media and public's right to know what's going on. That's just my speculation, though.

Remi: 1:28:15

It's just very interesting that this is the case. That started all that, because it's so mainstream now.

Ashley: 1:28:23

The prosecution called a total of 27 witnesses, including JR, pete, billy and Cecilia. Pete and JR came across as cold and unemotional as they described the murder, while Billy struggled to recount the events without breaking down Through tears. He testified about his relationship with Pam and the murder of her husband, saying he only agreed to carry it out because he loved her and believed her threats about breaking up with him if he didn't do what she wanted. Cecilia corroborated everything he said. In contrast, the defense called just four witnesses the 911 dispatcher who took the emergency call, two character witnesses and finally the defendant herself.

Ashley: 1:29:09

Pam admitted to having a sexual relationship with Billy but claimed she ended it a week or two before the murder. According to her, billy was obsessed and threatened to kill himself if she broke things off. She said she didn't tell the police about the affair, even after his arrest, because she feared they would immediately assume she was involved in the crime immediately assume she was involved in the crime. Throughout her testimony she insisted she had nothing to do with the murder and her lawyers argued the teenagers only implicated her to save themselves. Regarding the wiretaps, she claimed she began to suspect Cecilia knew more than she was letting on and having been shut out of the investigation. She was only trying to coax the truth out of her young friend.

Pamela Smart: 1:29:55

And I told her. Well, she had said to me that she had asked me did I know about the murder beforehand? And initially I had said no. And then she made a statement to me that if I knew more about it, that as long as I told her that she wouldn't tell anyone and that we had to stick together. So in my mind I thought that I would play a game with her and I would say that I knew more about the murder.

Remi: 1:30:27

Interesting choice of excuse on that. One Never heard that before.

Ashley: 1:30:32

On March 22, 1991, after 13 hours of deliberation, the jury found Pamela Smart guilty on all counts. She received a mandatory sentence of life in prison without the possibility of parole. Upon hearing the verdict, she turned to her lawyer and said I can't believe Billy. First he took Greg's life, now he's taking mine. The separate case involving her alleged attempt to have Cecilia killed was dropped later that year.

Ashley: 1:31:02

Pam was initially housed in the New Hampshire State Prison for Women but was transferred in 1993 to the Bedford Hills Correctional Facility for Women, a maximum security facility in Bedford, new York. The reason for the transfer remains unclear. In 2007, the attorney's general office claimed it was due to disciplinary issues and while she did have 22 write-ups, all but two were for minor infractions. The deputy compact administrator stated the transfer was made out of concern that it would be too easy to break her out of the prison in New Hampshire. To this day, no formal interstate compact document has been disclosed. In September 1991, cbs aired Murder in New Hampshire, a made-for-TV movie starring Helen Hunt. For anyone wondering why we're not covering that film for this podcast, let's just say the 31% rating on Rotten Tomatoes played a role in the decision. Nonetheless, here's a clip from the trailer the Florida Citrus Council is sponsoring this contest for the most creative commercial.

Pamela Smart: 1:32:11

Think about it we get to be outrageous or funny billy. Are you in sure great? Do you ever think about me think?

To Die For Clip: 1:32:25

about you all the time. I can't stop thinking about you billy, you're bad the defendant initiated an affair with with Billy Flynn.

Pamela Smart: 1:32:33

You're telling us that just you and Pam are spending the night together. She's crazy about me.

Casey Affleck: 1:32:37

I don't know. I think it's weird man. She's like a teacher, he's just a kid. He hit me.

Remi: 1:32:42

Who is he? Greg, he hit her. She's hysterical over there.

A Cry in the Dark Trailer: 1:32:45

I don't know If you need something bad enough and you?

Ashley: 1:32:48

don't give up. You can have anything you want. The trailer actually doesn't look that bad.

Remi: 1:32:54

Yes, it does. I like Helen Hunt and it looks like this made-for-TV version is more accurate, but I don't know, man, that did not look great.

Ashley: 1:33:05

For years Pam denied any involvement in the murder and blamed her conviction on a corrupt investigation and the way she was portrayed in the media. Here's a clip from her first post-conviction interview with Diane Sawyer in 1994.

Pamela Smart: 1:33:22

What happened to Greg is the most horrible thing I've ever gone through in my life and I'm still haunted every day by memories of what must have happened to him inside our house before he was killed. And although I wasn't there, I feel that because of that I'll never know how Greg was feeling at the time. I keep thinking of how afraid he must have been and how senseless this whole tragedy was. A lot of times I still can't even believe that he's gone.

Remi: 1:34:00

Nicole Kidman is a much better actress than Pamela Smart is.

Ashley: 1:34:06

Pam also kept close tabs on Billy Flynn, who she saw as the key to her freedom. Billy Flynn, who she saw as the key to her freedom. In a 2018 interview, she explained he's one of the few people that could actually get me out of here by coming forward and telling the truth, but he's never going to do that. She also wasn't too thrilled when all three of her co-defendants were subsequently granted parole.

Ralph: 1:34:30

People can feel sorry for them as much as they want to, they can cry as much as they want, but nonetheless they went into my condo, they put my husband on his knees and they killed him, while he begged for his life, and I wasn't there for that. They did that.

Remi: 1:34:48

It seems like her story hasn't changed in the several decades that she's been telling it, primarily focusing on the literal events of that night and completely ignoring her part in all of that.

Ashley: 1:35:04

Oh, everyone agrees that this wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for her.

Remi: 1:35:08

Yes, she orchestrated this. She manipulated impressionable teens. This happened because of her. It wouldn't have happened otherwise.

Ashley: 1:35:18

To support her ongoing, though ultimately unsuccessful, appeals, her family created the sporadically published Friends of Pamela Smart newsletter, which was mailed to her loyal supporters and, of course, various media outlets was mailed to her loyal supporters and, of course, various media outlets. Throughout her incarceration, pam earned three master's degrees in law, professional studies and English literature, as well as a doctorate in ministry from Mercy College. She tutored fellow inmates, sought to establish a peer counseling program and became a member of the National Organization for Women Advocating for Rights of Incarcerated Women. In October 1996, she was severely beaten by two inmates who accused her of snitching about their prison relationship. Both women were convicted of second-degree assault and transferred to separate facilities. She unsuccessfully sued the prison, claiming they were liable for the assault, and that turned out to be just one of many legal actions she filed over the years. In 2003, the National Enquirer published photographs of her in her undergarments. She was sent to solitary confinement for two months after filing a complaint about the incident.

Remi: 1:36:34

Who did she file a complaint about the incident? Who did?

Ashley: 1:36:36

she file a complaint to the prison? Yeah, because the photos were taken of her in prison. Okay, Her lawsuit claiming that punishment was retaliatory was dismissed. However, in 2004, she and Caroline Wormus, another high-profile inmate convicted of murder, filed a joint lawsuit alleging sexual harassment and assault by a corrections officer. They said the officer coerced them into posing for the photos, which were then leaked to the inquirer by his girlfriend. In 2006, a spokesperson revealed that the women were raped by the guard and had photos taken of them to ensure their silence. The case was settled in November 2009 for $24,000, more than half of which went to Pam's legal fees. And say what you want about Pam Smart, but that's terrible and I'm glad this lawsuit actually panned out. She should have gotten more. She was taken advantage of by the people that were supposed to protect her.

Remi: 1:37:38

Agreed. This abuse of power by people in that sort of position of authority is totally unacceptable.

Ashley: 1:37:47

And sadly, all too common. There's been so many lawsuits in the past couple years.

Remi: 1:37:52

Because a lot of times prisoners are ignored, unfortunately.

Ashley: 1:37:57

Pam filed another lawsuit in 2015 after she was disciplined for having a plastic non-serrated cake knife in her cell back in 2012. She argued she kept the same knife for 17 years without issue and never violated contraband rules, which, if that's true, that's disgusting that she had a plastic knife in her cell for 17 years without issue and never violated contraband rules, which, if that's true, that's disgusting.

Remi: 1:38:20

That she had a plastic knife in her cell for 17 years yeah, that's not going to get her out of trouble. The fact that she had it for such a long time. It just means she was breaking the rules for an incredibly long amount of time.

Ashley: 1:38:28

She argued that it was never before considered contraband, so it didn't make sense that it was now In 2019, she sued again, this time claiming the prison violated her constitutional rights when she was sent to segregation for 40 days after morphine pills were found in her cell in 2017. Pam claimed the pills were actually tramadol, that the test that revealed they were morphine was wrong and that she was allowed to keep tramadol on her person.

Remi: 1:38:58

I don't think prisoners are allowed to keep their medication on them like that.

Ashley: 1:39:03

Some can, depending on what the medication is. I couldn't find anything about the outcome of these lawsuits, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and say they didn't get very far of these lawsuits. But I'm going to go out on a limb here and say they didn't get very far. In March 2023, the New Hampshire Supreme Court dismissed Pam's last chance at freedom when it declined to reverse a decision from the governor denying her clemency petition.

Remi: 1:39:26

So she will be in prison for the rest of her life.

Ashley: 1:39:29

She will die in prison. Yeah, In support of that petition, she made a video statement accepting responsibility for Greg's murder for the first time. Well, kind of.

Pamela Smart: 1:39:42

I am older and able to look back on things. I can see so many errors that I made and I can see how obscured my judgment was and how immature I was. Looking backwards, you know, I'm such a different person than I was. I'm more thoughtful, before you know, I think things through before I make decisions and less impulsive and just more responsible and mature than I was back then. I mean, 34 years is a very long time and during that time I've done a lot of work on myself and a lot of spiritual work and just had a big growth in who I am and how I deal with things.

Remi: 1:40:30

I'm still not hearing a lot of accountability from Pamela in this interview here. It sounds more like what you would say at a parole hearing than an interview where you were taking accountability for your actions. She's painting herself in a more positive light, I'm saying.

Ashley: 1:40:50

Even for a parole hearing, this wouldn't be acceptable. This video is about four and a half minutes long. You can easily find it online and not once does she say Greg is dead because of me. She skirts around the issue, highlights all the growth she's made in prison and just says that she's a better person now because she's been in prison for so long and deserves to be free.

Remi: 1:41:21

That was what came across to me as well was she was really trying to say she was a changed person and not the person she was many years ago, but still zero accountability.

Ashley: 1:41:27

Well, enough about Pamela Smart, let's talk about what happened to everyone else. Raymond Fowler was paroled in 2003. A year later, he was charged with a parole violation after a verbal dispute with his girlfriend, but released again on June 14, 2005. He planned to live in his apartment and return to construction work. Jr Latim earned his GED in prison and took classes in computer. Dar Latim earned his GED in prison and took classes in computer, carpentry and woodworking. He was released in 2005 on lifetime parole. He has since married and found steady employment.

Ashley: 1:42:01

I did not know lifetime parole was a thing either, actually, it's pretty rare, I think In Oregon you have to be sentenced as a dangerous offender, which is a pretty high bar to reach have to be sentenced as a dangerous offender, which is a pretty high bar to reach. So I'm kind of surprised that these three juveniles received that harsh of a supervision requirement. But I do know that now they are all on the lowest form of supervision so they basically just have to check in once a year.

Remi: 1:42:30

Wow, all right, so they are basically free at this point once a year.

Ashley: 1:42:35

Wow, alright, so they are basically free at this point. The downside is any sort of contact with the police, however minor, could result in a violation.

Remi: 1:42:40

That's the downside of being on parole or probation If you fuck up at all, it is much more serious.

Ashley: 1:42:49

Billy Flynn and Pete Randall were incarcerated at Maine State Prison. Billy earned his GED, became a journeyman electrician, mentored at-risk youth and volunteered for many charities, including Locks of Love and Toys for Tots. In 2002, he began a pen pal relationship with a woman named Kelly and the two later married. He was moved to a minimum security facility in July 2014 to participate in a work release program. Billy and Pete were released on lifetime parole on June 4, 2015. During their parole hearing, they apologized to the Smart family and agreed not to speak to the media out of respect for them, a promise they have kept. Cecilia Pierce stayed out of the spotlight until 2016, when she spoke publicly about the murder for the first time in 20 years. She reportedly earned $10,000 from the movie deal I mentioned earlier, became a registered nurse, co-founded an animal shelter for hard-to-place dogs and regretted ever meeting Pamela Smart.

Remi: 1:43:53

I'm sure all of theseted ever meeting Pamela Smart. I'm sure all of these teens regret meeting Pamela Smart.

Ashley: 1:43:58

Greg Smart's parents filed a wrongful death lawsuit against Pam in August 1991, but I couldn't find any details about the outcome. Judy Smart passed away from a neurological disease in 1998. Those close to her said she was never the same after her son's murder. Bill Smart died from pancreatic cancer in September 2010. Until the time of his death, he regularly visited his son's grave and continued to wear his wedding ring. And that is the true story of Gus Van Sant's To Die For.

Remi: 1:44:32

The true story and the film are much more similar than I was anticipating. In all honesty, however, I am disappointed that the film skimmed over the trial and media stuff. I mean, it omitted the trial entirely by killing Suzanne in the end, but the whole thing was about her wanting this attention from the press and all of that, and it kind of just ends once that gets started in the film, and I think it would have been interesting to go into that a bit more as well. And I have some more thoughts, but I'm gonna save them for my verdict and our objection of the week.

Ashley: 1:45:11

What I appreciate about the movie the most, I think, is the larger commentary that Gus Van Sant took about media's fascination with high-profile crimes. That was such a huge aspect of the murder of Greg Smart and it continues to be. This woman has had so many interviews. She has an HBO documentary about her that I have not watched, but it's just about her and her telling her quote unquote story, which this woman is not believable.

Ashley: 1:45:46

I find it despicable that she still, in my opinion, to this day, has not accepted accountability for her role in this crime. As I said earlier, this would not have happened if it wasn't for her, and even her claim of accepting responsibility in 2023, that was not her accepting responsibility. She glossed over it and never once, as I mentioned, said anything about how she was the primary person that started this chain of events and action, that she took advantage of several vulnerable teens and that what she did was wrong and unforgivable. And maybe she should be in prison for the rest of her life because she played such a primary role in killing her husband, and for what? Her motives still aren't even really clear.

Remi: 1:46:40

It does seem like her motives in real life and in the film were a little different. They are murkier in the real life story. In the film it seems like it was almost a career move for her. It seems like it was almost a career move for her, but I don't think. The real Pamela had her husband murdered so she could get the spotlight. But once she had it, she did not shy away from it and she has taken every opportunity to use the media as her soapbox to plead her case over and over and over again. Every single time she has the opportunity. And I honestly do feel bad for the teens that got wrapped up in this whole thing because, from your accounts, they didn't want to do this and she really, really pressured them. It is a crazy situation for a 15-year-old to find himself in. Crazy situation for a 15-year-old to find himself in. He is definitely wrong for what he did, but I honestly feel that he is remorseful and genuinely regrets everything that happened.

Ashley: 1:47:43

There's been news reports lately about how the current administration is pushing for harsher sentencing for juvenile offenders, and I think this case really shows that most people that commit crimes during adolescence are rehabilitatable. There's ample research about the brain development of youth and how drastically different their thought processes are from adults, and in this case, all four of these all five, if you count Cecilia of these teens that were involved with Pamela Smart went on to become productive members of society and really made impressive strides.

Remi: 1:48:23

As a former troubled teen myself. I got into trouble back in the day I was on probation. I was sent to some of those crazy wilderness programs. But I am a completely different person today than I was sent to some of those crazy wilderness programs. But I am a completely different person today than I was decades ago. My reasoning, my logic, my entire way of thinking and going about life has changed just from age and understanding better. So I sympathize with these kids. What they did was wrong, but I do think that it is wrong to say that a teenager is who that person will be forever.

Ashley: 1:48:58

Well, with that, let's transition to our objection of the week.

Remi: 1:49:03

Your Honor, I object. And why is that, Mr Reed? Because it's devastating, to my case, overruled, good call.

Ashley: 1:49:11

And as a quick reminder, our objection of the week is the most superfluous change from the real story to the on-screen adaptation. Remy, why don't you kick things off?

Remi: 1:49:24

Before I do I just want to say I'm really glad we have incorporated the word superfluous into our description of our objection of the week on a regular basis at this point. But my objection for this week I have two things, and both of them would have added something to the film in my opinion and, honestly, wouldn't have changed very much. I will say the one that I am not going with first, which is the orange juice commercial. I think that's something that could have been in the film and I think, in a satirical way, gus Van Sant could have pulled off that sort of scene and it would have been interesting to see them collaborating on a project rather than Suzanne just recording them all the time doing their regular things. It would have added more of a connection between her and the teens, I feel.

Ashley: 1:50:15

I think the reason it was changed if we're ignoring the fact that maybe that's how it was depicted in the novel was probably because it would have been a little bit ridiculous to have a woman who was working for a TV news station to come in and make an orange juice commercial. So it made more sense for them to have it be a documentary.

Remi: 1:50:36

And that is part of the reason why I'm not going with this. It would be incredibly silly to see Nicole Kidman dressed up as a cave woman trying to make a orange juice commercial with Joaquin Phoenix and Casey Affleck, but it would have been fun to see. However, the one I'm going with this week can be summed up in two words Van Halen. I understand if this was not included because of rights issues or something like that, but I do think that they should have found some band, some sort of musical connection between her and Jimmy or Billy in real life, and it would have added another layer to it. In the film she's very, very focused on the news and basically that's it. That's all she talks about is news and sometimes pop culture. But that would have added an interesting side to her, the fact that she acted this way, dressed this way, but still had that rock and roll spirit inside of her that connected her and these teens a bit. So that is my objection of the week.

Ashley: 1:51:48

So mine is pretty simple. In the movie, suzanne has a Pomeranian. In real life, pamela Smart had a Shih Tzu. I don't know why it wasn't a Shih Tzu. They're both small dogs, just seemed like an odd change. Maybe they could only get a Pomeranian on set that day. I don't know. Dog should have been a Shih Tzu.

Remi: 1:52:06

I can understand why they made that change for visual purposes A Pomeranian is a much more floofy dog. But yeah, I agree, I'm going to give it to you on that one. I think they could have easily had the dog been a Shih Tzu.

Ashley: 1:52:21

And that leads us into our Objection of the Week.

Verdict VO: 1:52:25

At the conclusion of each episode, our hosts will deliver a verdict based on the film's accuracy. If the film is an honest portrayal of the events, then it will earn a not guilty verdict. If the adaptation is mostly factual but creative liberties were taken for the sake of entertainment, the film will be declared a mistrial. But if the film ultimately strays too far from the truth, then it will be condemned as guilty and sentenced to a life behind bars. Guilty and sentenced to a life behind bars.

Ashley: 1:52:53

All right, I'll kick things off. So I fluctuated back and forth and back and forth throughout the whole time you were telling this story and originally, after you were done talking about the movie, my verdict was guilty. But as I was retelling my portion, I warmed up more to just go with a mistrial. I warmed up more to just go with a mistrial. And the reason I'm going with a mistrial even though there is clearly several, several changes that we have highlighted already. So I'm not gonna rehash them. But the main takeaway is, if you watch this movie and you know the story about Pamela Smart, there is no way you are not gonna make the connection and think that this movie is based on or inspired by anyone else other than this woman. In this case, there's a lot of similarities here. The overall plot and what happens, of course, taking out the murder at the end was obviously based on this woman's sordid tale. So for that main reason, I'm gonna go with Mistrial. What about you?

Remi: 1:53:56

I went into this hoping for Mistrial, knowing that in real life Pamela Smart is in prison for the rest of her life and was not killed by the mafia like in the film. I figured a ton of other stuff would be different as well, and I was sort of bracing myself for a guilty verdict. Yet, as you said, while you were going over the real story, I was shocked at how much of it lined up. The structure and framework of the real story is in To Die For, and a lot was changed, like we mentioned. But the true story is still there, or at least the essence of it, and for that I'm going to give To Die For a mistrial as well.

Ashley: 1:54:38

All right, well, that makes up a little bit for our disappointing kickoff last week with Catch Me, if you Can.

Remi: 1:54:44

Yes, starting things off with a guilty, now a mistrial. So who knows, maybe our film two weeks from now will get the highly coveted not guilty verdict and it's a film I really don't know much about, and it's a true story that I don't know much about. Ashley, do you want to fill our audience in a little bit on what we will be covering two weeks from now?

Ashley: 1:55:06

Yes, I am very excited for the case in two weeks because it is a movie that is starring the greatest actress who has ever lived, meryl Streep, and we are going to be talking about the movie A Cry in the Dark, which most people probably haven't heard of, but I bet most people have heard of the Dingo Ate my Baby case, about Lindy Chamberlainain, and that is what the movie is about, and it's set in australia, so it'll be a completely new experience for both of us.

Remi: 1:55:41

I know neither of us have watched this movie, but both of us love meryl streep I have listened to a few podcasts about the tragic real story of what happened to this woman in Australia who was accused of killing her baby when in actuality, a dingo took her baby and nobody believed her, because it sounds like a crazy excuse and I'm really interested to watch this film with, like you said, the greatest actress of all time, meryl Streep, and a very tragic case.

Ashley: 1:56:12

Yeah, spoiler alert, it is a wrongful conviction case. I've already started reading the book that the screenplay is adapted from and it is just heartbreaking, as I'm seeing how this couple gets railroaded and they so far have no idea what's going on behind the scenes with the investigation. So tune in next week for that.

Remi: 1:56:35

We will, of course, as always, be leaving you with part of the trailer for the film we will be discussing two weeks from now, but until then, court is adjourned.

A Cry in the Dark Trailer: 1:56:50

On a night full of stars, in a campground full of families, Lindy Chamberlain lived the nightmare that every mother fears. God help me God, help me, the baby, my baby. And the press found a victim. Meryl Streep stars in a true story of a brave mother's trial. She's a witch mother's trial.

Pamela Smart: 1:57:13

She's a witch, you know.

To Die For Clip: 1:57:15

You're crediting me with a perfect murder. Someone is definitely out to get us. Tell me what really happened to your little sister.

A Cry in the Dark Trailer: 1:57:21

Lindy's private life became public property, her grief became a sideshow and her innocence became a story no one wanted to hear.

Pamela Smart: 1:57:31

I'd like to know more than anyone else what happened to my baby daughter.