Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid

In our first ever western episode, we dive into the legend behind Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid (1969) – the classic film starring Paul Newman and Robert Redford that turned the two outlaws into folk heroes. How close did Hollywood get to the real story of Robert LeRoy Parker (Butch Cassidy) and Harry Longabaugh (Sundance Kid), and where did the truth get lost? We’ll unpack the infamous train robberies, the Wild Bunch gang, their mysterious escape into South America, and how the film’s charm reshaped their legacy. Was the ending as romantic as it seemed, or did history write a grittier final chapter? Tune in for the truth behind the myth of the old west’s most iconic duo.

Primary Source:

• Leerhsen, Charles. Butch Cassidy: The True Story of an American Outlaw. Simon & Schuster (2020).

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Theme: DARKNESS (feat. EdKara) by Ghost148

Chapters

• 0:19 Setting The Stage: Film Meets True Crime
• 5:41 First Western Expectations Upended
• 8:25 Casting Battles And Studio Politics
• 13:07 On-Set Stories And Cinematography
• 14:27 Plot Walkthrough: Holdups And Banter
• 23:47 The Bicycle Scene And Tone Shift
• 31:27 Bolivia Run And Final Shootout
• 40:14 Reception, Oscars, And The Music Debate
• 46:44 Redford’s Sundance Legacy And Festival
• 51:34 The Real Butch: Roots And Restlessness
• 1:08:16 Building The Wild Bunch
• 1:17:13 Train Robberies And Tactics
• 1:25:09 South America: Ranching And Reinvention
• 1:35:11 Bolivia, The Last Stand, And Aftermath

Transcript

Remi: 0:14

Welcome to Criminal Adaptations, the show where we take a look at some of your favorite movies and the true crime stories that inspired them. I'm Remy. I spent over a decade working in the film and television industry in Los Angeles, California.

Ashley: 0:27

And I'm Ashley. I'm a clinical psychologist and forensic evaluator in the state of Oregon.

Remi: 0:39

Howdy, partner. Welcome back to the most rip rootin'ist, rootin' tootiness podcast this side of the Wild West. Now get ready to saddle up, cuz today we're diving into the legendary outlaws, Butch Cassidy, and the Sundance Kid.

Ashley: 0:56

I think this episode will bring us some much-needed lightness to follow up our three-parter on Edgane and the one we did before that, which was Memories of Murder. So I am very happy that we are going to be tackling our first Western today.

Remi: 1:15

And you didn't even comment on my pitch perfect Western accent that I just did at the beginning there, but that's okay. I'll let it slide this time. This is our first Western. Hooray! I am not a huge fan of the Western genre and I had never seen this film before. But what did you know about Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid before we decided to do this episode? Did you know they were real or did you think that they were just fictional movie characters?

Ashley: 1:44

I did know they were real, and I did know that they were outlaws who were around in the late 1800s, early 1900s, but that's really all I know about them. I, you know, obviously knew that they were robbers and thieves and things like that. But when it comes to specific aspects of their life or personality, I came into this completely blind.

Remi: 2:07

Same. I think that I knew that they were real Western outlaws, but I was definitely more familiar with the fact that they made a film about them. However, I had never seen it, and my expectations for the film and what it ended up being were vastly different. This is not as much of a Western as I initially anticipated. This film also stars Robert Redford and Paul Newman, two very iconic actors that honestly they were kind of before my time, so I haven't really seen a ton of their films. I never saw The Sting, which was also directed by the same director as this movie. And in all honesty, I kinda know Robert Redford mostly for the Captain America Winter Soldier. Oof.

Ashley: 2:57

People around the world are just heartbroken right now. My uh aunt and my mom, but especially my aunt, they were obsessed with Robert Redford. My aunt just thought he was the sexiest man to ever grace planet Earth.

Remi: 3:14

He definitely had that reputation. When I was younger, he was already in his older years, so I never really saw that young Robert Redford that my parents speak of. But I will say he was good in the Captain America movies. My dad was always more of a Paul Newman guy. However, he's another actor that I haven't seen a ton of his stuff. I have seen Cool Hand Luke, didn't see what the big deal was. And the thing that comes to mind when I think of Paul Newman is his role in Road to Perdition with Tom Hanks, where he was very good in that. But again, my experience with these actors is in their later years, not in their younger years like this film is.

Ashley: 3:56

Yeah, I have not seen any of these movies you named. Obviously, I saw Captain America Winter Soldier, so I guess that's one Robert Redford movie. I know I've seen him in a couple other movies, but none of them really come to mind at this moment.

Remi: 4:11

The first year I began getting interested in film and watched the Academy Awards for the first time, it was the year that Forrest Gump and Pulp Fiction and Shawshank Redemption were all going for the Academy Award for Best Picture. But there was another movie called Quiz Show that was in the running that year as well, that honestly never had a chance. But that movie was directed by Robert Redford, and I remember my parents taking me to that movie at a very young age. I wasn't sure what was going on exactly, but I think he's a very talented director. I've seen a couple of other films he's directed as well, and I know he's really charismatic and dashing, but I really think he had a lot of skills behind the camera.

Ashley: 4:56

Well, how about we dive into Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid? And, you know, we're gonna switch things up a bit and let someone else introduce this episode. Brad Pitt, take it away.

Brad Pitt: 5:10

I'm Brad, and I get to introduce today's film, one of my all-time favorites. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. I first saw this film when I was six or seven years old. I haven't stopped watching it since. It's the original Buddy Pick, the one that started it all. It stars Paul Newman, Robert Redford, Catherine Ross, directed by George Roy Hill, and shot by Conrad Hall.

Remi: 5:31

Couldn't have said it better myself, Brad. William Goldman first discovered the story of Butch Cassidy in the late 1950s, then spent the next eight years researching before finally sitting down to write the script as an original screenplay in order to be less hindered by historical accuracy.

Ashley: 5:52

Well, that really sets the stage, I think, for what is to come.

Remi: 5:57

Oh, it certainly does. Goldman loved the idea of two famous bandits and one remarkable woman carving out an unexpected second chapter for themselves in South America after years of living as Western outlaws. But not everyone was sold on Goldman's script. One studio executive rejected the concept entirely simply because it portrayed the outlaws as running away, since, as he put it, John Wayne don't run away. So, Goldman made a few small adjustments to the script, shifting the story into a much more unconventional Western, with broader appeal to a wider audience. And suddenly, every studio in town just had to have it. The role of Sundance was first offered to Jack Lemon, whose production company, JML, had produced the film Cool Hand Luke in 1967, starring Paul Newman. However, Lemon felt that he had already played too many aspects of the Sundance Kid's character in other roles. Plus, he didn't like riding horses, so turned down the part. Other actors considered for the role of Sundance were Steve McQueen and Warren Beatty. Beatty also passed on the role, claiming that the project was too similar to his previous film, Bonnie and Clyde, which we do plan on covering someday. Steve McQueen was offered the role and reportedly read the script around the same time as Paul Newman, with Newman explaining in the following interview exactly how the script finally came to him.

Paul Newman: 7:59

And he said, Can you come over to my house? I got the flu. And I said, Sure. And he said, There's this script I'd like you to read, and there it was, Butch Cassidy. And I said, I that's funny, I've seen this script. In fact, I remember working on it.

Remi: 8:14

McQueen would eventually back out due to creative differences between he and Newman, who had accepted the role of Butch Cassidy. The two did eventually share the screen together in the 1974 disaster film The Towering Inferno, which I also haven't seen. And now that I think about it, I'm not sure I've seen any Steve McQueen movies.

Ashley: 8:35

I don't think I have either.

Remi: 8:37

I hear Bullet is good. I'll check that out eventually, but yeah, it's a blind spot in my movie knowledge. While Newman was already a major star at this point, Robert Redford, on the other hand, was still basically a complete unknown. In spite of this, director George Roy Hill still saw something special in the young actor and proposed casting Redford in the role of Sundance. The studio executives at Fox hated this idea, and were reportedly appalled when Hill suggested Redford for the role of Sundance. Despite this negative reaction from the studio, Hill continued pushing for Redford, with Paul Newman himself also getting involved to help combat the studio's resistance of casting the unknown actor, until eventually they finally agreed. Robert Redford had personally recounted this story numerous times in various interviews throughout his life, expressing his sincerest gratitude to both Hill and Newman for the opportunity that changed his career.

Robert Redford: 9:45

Certainly very moved by that. The studio didn't want me. It was 20th Century Fox. And they wanted two stars. I think they wanted Steve McQueen at that time and Paul. I guess the beauty of the story, and to my fortune, Paul and the writer, and George in particular. George is the one that went to the mat for it. He said, look, it's my movie. I'm the director. And finally, as I understood it, they just kept beating him up, and he beat them up, and they kept forcing him to look at other actors, and they ran out of other actors.

Ashley: 10:18

You know, sometimes persistence just pays off.

Remi: 10:22

Yeah, and Redford had no idea any of this was going on. He did not know Newman or Hill at this time. And ironically, Paul Newman's wife, actress Joanne Woodward, sort of deserves some of the credit for suggesting Redford to Newman in the first place. Newman, as I said, was unfamiliar with the actor, but after Woodward read the script for Butch and Sundance, Woodward flat out stated that the only guy who can play Sundance is Bob Redford. She had apparently seen him performing in a play around this time and thought he was just amazing. Redford agreed to the role simply because he loved the script. Interestingly, Newman was 11 years older than Redford, though in real life, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid were almost the same age. For the part of Ed a Place, several names floated around, with Jacqueline Bassett reportedly being one of the top contenders. Joanna Pettit was first offered the role but had to turn it down due to her pregnancy at the time. The role eventually went to Catherine Ross, who had already made a name for herself in The Graduate in 1967 and was considered a rising star in Hollywood. Though Redford hated rehearsals, feeling that it killed spontaneity in an actor's performance, he went along with them out of respect for Newman, who preferred rehearsing the film's scenes in advance. Filming took place across such stunning landscapes as the ghost town of Grafton, Zion National Park, Snow Canyon State Park, and St. George, Utah. The Bolivia scenes were shot in Mexico, where almost the entire cast and crew, including director George Roy Hill, got sick from drinking the water. Newman, Redford, and Catherine Ross, however, all managed to stay healthy by only drinking soda and alcohol.

Ashley: 12:25

They got the memo about avoiding water in Mexico.

Remi: 12:29

Newman and Redford had a good time on this set. I think there was a lot of drinking and hanging out. I don't think there was a lot of sipping water. The real Butch Cassidy's sister, Lula Parker Beddinson, frequently visited the set and quickly became popular amongst the casting crew. During breaks in filming, she shared first-hand stories about her brother's adventures and was reportedly impressed by how closely the script and Newman's performance captured the spirit of her late brother. During filming, Newman maintained a disciplined routine involving waking up at 5.30 a.m. before work to have a swim and sauna. He would also call his wife without fail three times every day. Offset, however, Newman said that he and Redford had a blast, laughing, drinking beer, and ultimately cementing a friendship that would last a lifetime, with Newman calling it the most fun he'd ever had making a film.

Ashley: 13:27

Oh, that's sweet.

Remi: 13:29

So are you ready to saddle up and get into George Roy Hills, Butch Cassidy, and the Sundance Kid?

Ashley: 13:37

I sure am. Let's get this rodeo started.

Remi: 14:22

The film then opens in almost complete darkness, making it difficult to see much of anything really, until suddenly, from the shadows, a man appears, mid-30s, tanned, with brown hair and piercing blue eyes. He hasn't even said a single word yet, but his rugged charisma is clearly undeniable. This man is Butch Cassidy, played by the legendary frozen pizza purveyor, Paul Newman.

Ashley: 14:53

Wait, Newman's pizza is somehow associated with Paul Newman?

Remi: 14:57

Yes, you didn't know that. His face is right on the cover of it. Yeah, Newman's Pizza is from Paul Newman. It was his company.

Ashley: 15:04

I had no idea. And I'm just now putting together that that was Paul Newman, because I don't think I even knew what he looked like until we watched that clip of him talking about how he got the role of Butch Cassidy.

Remi: 15:15

Well, he makes a damn good thin crust pizza. Butch casually strolls around a bank, eyeing its barred windows, thick doors, and guarded safes, taking in its details, unimpressed. Butch asks one of the guards, What was wrong with the old bank? It was beautiful. People kept robbing it, the guard replies. Butch grins, half amused, and responds, That's a small price to pay for beauty. The film shifts into a smoky saloon where a tense blackjack game is underway, and a mustachioed gambler named John Macon has been winning hand after hand, steadily cleaning out the other players. Now, what these other players don't know is that John Macon is actually the Sundance kid, played by Robert Redford, with his good buddy Butch standing in the shadows just behind him. Tired of losing, one of the other players accuses Sundance of cheating and refuses to let him leave with the winning pot. Butch tries de-escalating the situation, but the mood quickly shifts once the other player realizes that they're dealing with the Sundance Kid. As Sundance makes his way towards the door, the other player calls out, Hey kid, how good are you? But before the player can even finish, Sundance spins around at the blink of an eye, dropping to one knee, pistol drawn, and blasts the naysayer's sidearm right off of his belt and across the floor in a barrage of bullets. After making his point, Sundance twirls the gun back into its holster like a pinwheel, before he and Butch strut out of the front door and ride off into the sunset atop their trusty steeds, ready for their next harrowing adventure. Along the way, the two men exchange a bit of playful banter until eventually reaching a small ranch tucked neatly away amidst the sprawling landscapes. It is here that we meet the rest of Butch and Sundance's Hole-in-the-Wall gang, who all seem less than thrilled to see that their fearless leader Butch has finally returned. The gang's animosity seems to stem from a recent Salt Lake Herald newspaper article highlighting their latest robbery of $20,000, while also specifically mentioning several gang members by their actual names. As a result, Hole in the Wall morale is at an all-time low, leading to one of the larger, deeper voiced members named Logan, played by Ted Cassidy, who also played Lurch in the original Addams Family TV show, challenging Butch for leadership of the gang.

Brad Pitt: 18:03

You always said that any one of us could challenge a Butch. Well, that's because I figured no one would do it. Figured wrong, Butch.

Butch Cassidy: 18:10

You guys can't want Logan.

Hole In The Wall Gang Member: 18:13

Well, at least he's with us, butch. You wouldn't spend a lot of time gone.

Butch Cassidy: 18:17

Well, that's because everything's different now. It's harder now. You gotta plan more, you gotta prepare more. I don't want to shoot with you, Hardy.

Ashley: 18:33

Man, I gotta say, that clip really makes me appreciate why Robert Redford and Paul Newman were considered heartthrobs back in the day. They are very good looking men.

Remi: 18:44

They were quite dashing. I can admit that. They were some good-looking fellas. So I understand how my mom and several aunts out there used to swoon over these gentlemen. Since Butch has always maintained an open challenge policy, he is forced to accept. But the match is ended quickly when Butch kicks Logan in the balls while explaining the rules, following it up with a devastating double axe-handled uppercut, promptly ending the fight on impact. With his leadership still intact, Butch proclaims that the Hole in the Walls will be carrying out another train robbery as their next unlawful escapade. We then immediately cut to Sundance leaping onto a speeding locomotive, then forcing the conductor at gunpoint to grind those gears to a halt, where Butch and the Hole-in-the-Wall gang all lie in wait. There is a slight hiccup when a man named Woodcock, who has sworn allegiance to Mr. E. H. Harriman of the Union Pacific Railroad, stubbornly refuses to allow the gang entrance into the express car where the money is being held. Undeterred, the gang uses a few sticks of dynamite to blow a hole in the wall, granting them access to the cash instantaneously, before galloping away scot-free. Sidebar here, this scene was shot on the very first day of filming, with Catherine Ross stopping by the set just to watch. On this particular day, cinematographer Conrad L. Hall, whom was dating Ross at the time, had five cameras rolling, but only four camera operators. So he handed Ross the extra camera and gave her a quick crash course on how to frame and move the shot. For whatever reason, this infuriated director George Roy Hill, who exploded at Ross after filming had rapped for the day, banning her from the set unless she was needed in front of the camera. This incident, of course, led to a strained relationship between the two, with Hill reportedly holding a grudge against Ross for the remainder of the production.

Ashley: 20:58

Why didn't he get mad at the cinematographer? He's the one that told her to do it.

Remi: 21:02

I don't know. This guy sounds like he had to stick up his ass or something. This is really immature behavior for this sort of thing. They needed an extra camera operator, she did the job, I don't see what the problem was. Elsewhere, the night settles over a dusty little western town, where an eager marshal faces a restless crowd, announcing that Butch and Sundance have struck again. The marshal tries to rally a posse in order to pursue the outlaws, calling out, Let's ride! Who's got horses? Who's got guns? But the crowd just stares back awkwardly in silence, until somebody from the back shouts out, Are you crazy? They'll kill us. The crowd then turn their attention towards a boisterous peddler hawking a used bicycle, while Butch and Sundance look on bemused from the second-story balcony of a nearby saloon. With the commotion dying down, Butch's focus drifts to a lovely lady beckoning him back inside, leaving Sundance to set off in search of a woman of his own. This leads Sundance to sneaking into a woman's home in the dead of night, then forcing her to strip nearly naked at gunpoint while he watches creepily from the shadows. Thankfully, this woman turns out to be Edda Place, a 26-year-old schoolteacher played by Catherine Ross, who is also Sundance's lover and companion, meaning that the whole sexual assault and humiliation under the threat of violence scenario, we all just witnessed, was actually just some lighthearted foreplay between two consenting adults.

Ashley: 22:40

Odd way to introduce this relationship.

Remi: 22:43

I would agree. But it gets odder from here, believe it or not, because in bed with Sundance the following morning, Edda is awoken by Butch, singing a merry melody riding a bicycle he purchased from the peddler the previous night. Etta is instantly giddy at the sight of Butch, and is soon perched atop the bike's handlebars as the two embark on a carefree afternoon together, to the breezy tune of BJ Thomas's Feel Good Hit, raindrops keep falling on my head. Sidebar here, Catherine Ross later said that her favorite scene to film was the bicycle ride, partly because it was shot by the second unit and not director George Roy Hill, stating, Any day away from George Roy Hill was a good one. Now, Ashley, I want to show you this bicycle scene here, and just give me your honest reaction.

Ashley: 23:43

Alright, dear listeners. So in this scene, Butch Cassidy is riding around with Edda on a bicycle. They stop at a barn and she hops off the bike and runs up and is sitting by a window watching Butch as he is just doing all kinds of very impressive tricks on this bike. He's laying on it flat with his legs sprawled out behind him. He's standing on it with one foot, he's pedaling backwards, and that one turns out to be his downfall. He crashes into a fence, makes eye contact with a bull, kind of taunts him a little bit. The bull chases him. Edda jumps out of the barn window, hops on the bike, and they pedal back as fast as they can to wherever they're staying and walk back to the house arm in arm. It's a fun scene. It's weird because it makes it seem like they are the ones that are in a relationship. It seems like they're flirting throughout this whole time.

Remi: 24:40

That is what is happening in this scene, and there's a brief moment between the two after all of these shenanigans, where it seems like they might kiss, but they both know that they could never do that to Sundance. So it's like an unspoken attraction between the two that is never acted upon. But what is this scene? This scene has nothing to do with anything. I mean, I was caught so off guard when this happens in the film. This is not the type of scene that I would expect in a Western, and definitely not the type of song I would expect either. This whole situation really threw me for a loop when it happened on screen.

Ashley: 25:25

My guess would be it was a way to showcase Butch Cassidy's carefree, fun-loving personality.

Remi: 25:32

I do have some insight into it that I will get into at the end, but quick sidebar before moving on, Ashley, you mentioned you were impressed by the tricks that Butch was doing in this scene on the bicycle. Well, Paul Newman did nearly all of his own bicycle stunts in this scene, because his stunt man couldn't stay upright on the bike. The only trick he didn't attempt himself was the one where Butch rode backwards and crashed into the fence. That was actually done by cinematographer Conrad L. Hall.

Ashley: 26:07

That is very impressive he was able to do that, because this is one of those old bicycles, so the wheels are huge and thinner than they are now. It just seems much more rickety than bikes nowadays.

Remi: 26:19

And the tricks are impressive, I must admit. Anyway, another day, another train robbery for Butch and his whole gang, which starts off similarly as the first one, but with a little bit of extra TNT this time, causing an epic Michael Bay-esque explosion while blowing open the safe, scattering cash and debris everywhere. Fortunately, everyone survives unscathed, so Butch and Sundance just laugh it off. Then, suddenly, off in the distance, the gang spots a mysterious black locomotive, chug chug chuggin' up the rails. From its single train car, a barrage of able-bodied horsemen is unleashed, galloping ominously in the gang's direction. Sensing trouble, the Holy Boys hop their horses and begin to flee, leading to two men being gunned down during their escape by the sharpshooting horsemen. Butch and Sundance break off from the rest of the group, but are tailed mercilessly by the imposing riders. With nowhere else to turn, Butch and Sundance hide out in a brothel, where Butch knocks boots with a lovely lady of the night, waiting for the coast to clear. Once their cover is blown, the chase is on yet again, with Butch and Sundance making their getaway and gaining a prominent lead before the situation got too sticky. While covered by the darkness of night, the two men take refuge amongst the sandstone cliffs, but soon spot the tenacious horsemen approaching from the distance, carrying torches to light their path. This cat and mouse game continues for seemingly several more hours, further exasperating Butch while Sundance attempts to deduce the identities of their persistent pursuers.

Butch Cassidy: 28:12

Who are those guys?

the Sundance Kid: 28:15

You remember the time you and me and Edda went to Denver that summer for a vacation? I'm glad you brought that up, kid. That's an important topic considering our situation. The night we went gambling, you remember?

Butch Cassidy: 28:26

We had dinner at the hotel. Eddie had roast beef and I had chicken. And if I can remember what you had, I'll die a happy man.

the Sundance Kid: 28:33

Look out there. What? We got to talking to some gambler that night, and he told us about an Indian. A full-blooded Indian, except he called himself with an English name, sir. Somebody. Lord Baltimore? Lord Baltimore, that's right, and he could track anybody. Over anything, day or night. So? The guy in the ground, I think it's him.

Butch Cassidy: 28:55

No, Baltimore works out of Oklahoma. He's strictly an Oklahoma man. I don't know where we are, but it sure as hell is an Oklahoma. Whoever it is, it sure the hell is somebody.

Ashley: 29:06

Butch has got some quick one-liners, doesn't he?

Remi: 29:09

He is full of snappy one-liners throughout this whole film. It's kind of his thing. Sundance is more of the silent type, and Butch is always the one trying to talk his way out of situations rather than using his pistol.

Ashley: 29:25

That does seem to be a pretty accurate representation of who their real-life characters were.

Remi: 29:31

The outlaws finally reach a dead end at the edge of a steep canyon with a raging river far below, with the horsemen closing in around them. With their only escape being the rapids beneath them, they begin to argue, leading to Sundance admitting that he can't swim. Butch simply chuckles at this revelation before reassuring Sundance that the fall will probably kill them anyway. With no other choice, the duo leap from the cliff and into the river below, where they are swept swiftly away to safety downstream. After nearly an entire day of walking, Butch and Sundance finally arrived back at Edda's, damp, tired, and horseless by sundown. Inside, they learn that Mr. E. H. Harriman of the Union Pacific Railroad had become quite vexed by the hole-in-the-wall gang constantly targeting his trains. In response, Harriman outfitted a special train with special employees, specifically tasked with taking out Butch and Sundance. The following morning, Butch, Sundance, and Etta all go on the run together in a snazzy little sepia toned montage, eventually ending in Bolivia, where they immediately begin planning the next bank robbery. After learning just enough Spanish from Edda to communicate their intentions of robbery, Butch and Sundance soon set off on a rousing bank robbing rampage across Bolivia, while narrowly avoiding capture by Bolivian soldiers along the way. Oh, and this is the jaunty little Diddy playing over this soundtrack during the montage of all this.

Ashley: 31:26

The music in this really does a great job of lightening the mood, doesn't it?

Remi: 31:32

The music in this seems like it should be in the film Austin Powers and not a Wild West film. The music really, really caught me off guard. That whole ba-ba-da-ba-da-da-da-da-da-ba- was just jarring. And a lot of the montage is done through pictures, where it looks like it was just Catherine Ross, Robert Redford, and Paul Newman in costume, hanging out and having fun together, which I'm sure that's what the pictures were from. But the whole thing just comes across as so silly when you add this music to it. It's just such a bizarre choice to me. I was not expecting this film to be a comedy. I thought it would be like a Clint Eastwood type film. And yeah, I think I needed to reset my expectations. After a while, Butch and Sundance decide to switch things up a bit by trying to go straight and working as payroll guards for a mining company. During a routine run one day, their cantankerous employer is gunned down by an unseen assailant, sending Butch and Sundance running for their lives and abandoning the payroll. When the bandits come to collect, Butch and Sundance return to rob the robbers and return the riches, but their efforts are unfortunately impeded due to a severe language barrier.

Hole In The Wall Gang Member: 33:01

It's our job, the money isn't ours.

the Sundance Kid: 33:14

What do you think? Not so good. Can you take the two in the right? One hell of a time to tell me.

Ashley: 33:29

I think I would just select to let him take the money and go about my business.

Remi: 33:35

That is not what happens. The stalemate ends with Butch and Sundance gunning down every bandit, leading to the duo, coming to the conclusion that maybe the straight life just ain't for them. So they soon resort to robbing randos on horseback to keep getting by from that point forward. One afternoon, while the duo are hanging out in the plaza together, enjoying a hearty campesino meal, they are recognized by a common citizen who reports their whereabouts to the local police. They are soon surrounded by Bolivian soldiers lining the streets and rooftops, culminating in a classic Western shootout, where Sundance is wounded and they are quickly cornered inside an adobe building. As Butch tends to Sundance's injured arm, they share a few last laughs together, knowing full well that their story has reached its inevitable conclusion.

Butch Cassidy: 34:35

I've got a great idea where we should go next. I don't want to hear it. Change your mind when I tell you. Shut up. Okay, okay. Your great idea is a goddess. Forget about it. I don't ever want to hear another one of your ideas, alright? All right. Okay. Australia. Australia. Australia. Australia is no better than you. Of course it's not so many. A good climate, nice beaches, you can learn to swim. No, swimming isn't important.

Ashley: 35:29

Kudos to the director for making these men sweaty and dirty.

Remi: 35:34

This is my favorite scene of the film. I have a soft spot for scenes where characters know that something is ending, but they are still going to pretend like it's not for a little while. It just always gets to me. In the end, the two burst through the door with their pistols drawn, only for the film to cut to a freeze frame of the duo charging forward, mid-action to the sound of bullets as the soldiers open fire, bringing a harrowing end to the legendary adventures of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. So what do you think, Ashley? Is it similar to what you know about the true story? It was definitely not what I was expecting.

Ashley: 36:21

Well, no spoilers quite yet, but some thoughts I have based on your very colorful descriptions of the scenes and the clips that we watched, this seems like a fun movie. You can also tell that Paul Newman and Robert Redford genuinely got along. They had really great chemistry and seemed to play off each other really, really well in their scenes. And my last thought is the cinematography is gorgeous.

Remi: 36:51

It does have some really stunning landscape shots, and the film looks great, especially for the time that it was made. Cinematographer Conrad Hill did a beautiful job filming everything. And I think I just went into this thinking it was going to be more of a typical Western, which is why it was thrown off when it turned out to be a buddy comedy. And the Western stuff kinda takes a back seat to Robert Redford and Paul Newman just being charismatic and some witty banter and what looks like having a great time filming.

Ashley: 37:27

The vibe of it reminds me a lot of the Untouchables. Would you say that's pretty accurate?

Remi: 37:33

Similar, but this one is definitely more a straight-up comedy. Untouchables was not meant to be a comedy, but it had some unintentionally comedic elements in it, in my opinion. This film is supposed to be a comedy, and I think that's why I first watched it with my arms crossed, like this is not what I signed up for. But re-watching the scenes with you and seeing your reaction to them, it's making me view the film in a different light. And I think I need to re-watch the film with my expectations changed, knowing what I'm getting into this time.

Ashley: 38:11

I'm also kind of surprised that you were thrown off by the vibe because we watched the trailer and you were bursting out laughing as we were watching it. And the trailer is the reason we decided to put this in this season. And it does seem that the trailer was pretty true to form what the movie you got.

Remi: 38:31

Old trailers are always silly, though. So I just thought the trailer was maybe more silly than the film would end up being. I mean, we always watch old trailers, and trailers from that period of time are kinda sillier compared to the ones today. So that's what I thought we were getting. I had no idea that the raindrops keep falling on my head song was from this film. I had no idea that it was actually supposed to be a buddy comedy, and the trailer made it look like it was gonna be like a love triangle type thing. But despite knowing all that going into it, I was still expecting a Clint Eastwood film for whatever reason. And that is definitely not what this is.

Ashley: 39:21

Well, what happened post-production? I am very curious to hear how critics and audiences responded.

Remi: 39:29

Just weeks before Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid was released, Paul Newman's personal hairdresser on the film, Jay Sebring, one of Hollywood's most sought-after stylists at the time, was tragically murdered by Charles Manson's followers in August 1969.

Ashley: 39:48

Oh shit.

Remi: 39:49

Yeah, I was not expecting there to be a connection to the Manson murders. But yeah, the hairdresser on this film, Jay Sebring, was murdered with Sharon Tate in the Manson murders. The world premiere of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid took place on September 23, 1969, at the Roger Sherman Theater in New Haven, Connecticut, and went on to become the top-grossing film of 1969. While previously negotiating payment for his screenplay, William Goldman was given two choices: a flat fee of $450,000 or $400,000 plus a percentage of the box office. Goldman decided to play it safe and took the $450,000, which would be the equivalent of around $3.5 million today.

Ashley: 40:45

Ah, always go with the percentage.

Remi: 40:49

Exactly. Though this may have seemed like the smarter, safer option at the time, it turned out to be a decision he'd soon regret when Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid went on to earn over $102 million at the Global Box Office by the end of 1969. When adjusted for inflation, that would be the equivalent of over $900 million today.

Ashley: 41:15

That is insane that this movie got that much money.

Remi: 41:19

Well, by the end of the year, the film had also pulled in an additional $15 million from rentals in the United States and Canada. According to Fox's own records, the movie only needed $13.8 million in rentals to break even. But by December 1970, the film had brought in more than $36 million, ultimately returning $46 million in rentals alone. So this was a huge moneymaker. People loved this movie. I know that you texted your dad asking him about it, and he loves it, and my dad loves it. This was a classic. People were instantly hooked on this.

Ashley: 41:59

And as we heard at the top of this episode, it's Brad Pitt's favorite film.

Remi: 42:03

It's a lot of people's favorite film, and I was originally chalking that up to nostalgia because most people saw this at a young, impressionable age. But like I said, I'm starting to view it from a different perspective, and I can see the charm in this film. Goldman later joked that taking the safe money was probably the worst financial decision of his entire career. Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid currently has an 89% approval rating on Rotten Tomatoes, with a critical consensus that reads, with its iconic pairing of Paul Newman and Robert Redford, jaunty screenplay, and Bert Backerak's score, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid has gone down as one of the defining moments in late 1960s American cinema. Perplexingly, the extraneous song Raindrops Keep Fallin' on My Head was written by composer Bert Backerak and lyricist Hal David specifically for Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, and didn't even exist until after a rough cut of the film had already been finished.

Ashley: 43:15

It's such a weird song to have written for this. It's not even raining in the scene.

Remi: 43:20

Well, many felt that such a light, poppy song about raindrops in a scene without any rain had no business being in a western to begin with. And while I agree with them, I also feel that the entire bicycle scene in general has absolutely nothing to do with anything, so even with a different song, the scene would still be completely unnecessary. But George Roy Hill felt otherwise, and he insisted that the song stay in the film. Even Robert Redford himself was against the song's inclusion, and later admitted, when the film was released, I was highly critical. How did the song fit with the film? There was no rain. At the time, it seemed like a dumb idea. How wrong I was. It turned out to be a giant hit.

Ashley: 44:11

Let's listen, let's listen.

Butch Cassidy: 44:13

Raindrops have fallen on my head. And just like the guy whose feet are too big for his bed, nothing seems to fit.

Remi: 44:26

At the Oscars, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid received seven Academy Award nominations in 1970, winning four awards for Best Story and Screenplay for William Goldman, Best Cinematography for Conrad Hall, plus Best Original Score, and Best Original Song for Bert Bacharak and Hal David's Raindrops Keep Fallin' on My Head.

Ashley: 44:50

That's funny, it won for the music, which is one thing you hated. And I am glad that it won for cinematography, because I think that's probably the best part of this movie from what I've seen so far.

Remi: 45:01

It was also nominated for Best Picture, Best Director, and Best Sound, though it did not win in those categories.

Ashley: 45:08

I'm surprised no actor supporting actor.

Remi: 45:11

It made up for it at the British Academy Awards when it took home a record-setting nine BAFTAs, including Best Film, Best Actor for Robert Redford, Best Actress for Catherine Ross, Best Director, Best Screenplay, Cinematography, Film Editing, Sound, and Score. The only person who didn't win was Paul Newman because he was also nominated for Best Actor in the same category as Robert Redford.

Ashley: 45:40

They should have put one in Best Actor and one in Best Supporting.

Remi: 45:44

And if they were to do that, I would put Sundance as the supporting actor in this film. Paul Newman as Butch is really the leading man, in my opinion at least. The screenplay for Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid was ranked 11th on the Writers Guild of America's list of the 101 greatest screenplays of all time. It was also included in the New York Times 1000 Best Movies Ever Made, and in 2003, was added to the U.S. National Film Registry. Robert Redford repeatedly stated in interviews that out of all the roles he ever played, the Sundance Kid remained his favorite.

Ashley: 46:24

Oh, he became obsessed with Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. In the biography I read for this, that's listed in the episode notes if anyone's interested. It said that he bought a ski resort near Provo, Utah in 1969 and renamed it Sundance Mountain Resort, and that is still what it's called today. And this next one is the craziest fact that I learned about Robert Redford. In 1976, he rode on horseback the Outlaw Trail, which is a legendary route that outlaws, including Butch and Sundance, took from Montana to Mexico. It is 600 miles long. He rode this entire route on a horse and documented his experience, later writing a book and an article for National Geographic.

Remi: 47:15

Wow, so he rode a horse literally across this country from top to bottom. That is remarkably impressive. Redford was a cowboy in his own way.

Ashley: 47:27

I cannot imagine how much his butt hurt after that.

Remi: 47:31

In 1981, Redford founded the Sundance Institute, a nonprofit organization supporting independent filmmakers, storytellers, and artists. That same year, Redford's Sundance Institute took over the Utah U.S. Film Festival in Salt Lake City. And in 1985, it was renamed the Sundance Film Festival in honor of the now iconic character that first launched Redford's career.

Ashley: 47:59

And we were talking yesterday about how we wish we would have had the opportunity to go to the Sundance Film Festival. Unfortunately, since Robert Radford's death, very recently it has now been bought by another agency and they're moving it to Colorado. And renaming it, which really rubs me the wrong way.

Remi: 48:20

Yeah, I totally agree. This upcoming Sundance Film Festival in 2026 will be the last quote unquote Sundance Film Festival and the last one taking place in Utah. So it's basically gonna be completely different after that. And I've seen a couple interviews of the people who are planning this upcoming 2026 Sundance Festival, saying that they expect it to be the biggest they've ever had. They're going to have several tributes to Robert Redford, and it's just supposed to be a really big send-off for the festival. And I wish I could be there. The legend of Butch and Sundance continued to live on with a made-for-TV sequel to the film, which aired on ABC in 1976, titled Wanted: The Sundance Woman, starring Catherine Ross returning as Etta Place in a much larger role. A few years later, in 1979, a theatrical prequel was released called Butch and Sundance The Early Days, starring Tom Berenger as Butch and William Kat as Sundance. In 2022, Amazon Studios announced plans for a new television adaptation, with Glenn Powell and the Russo brothers attached as executive producers, but the project has yet to materialize. I could see Glenn Powell taking one of these roles. I think it would make a better Butch than Sundance.

Ashley: 49:47

Yeah, Butch was definitely the charismatic one. Sundance was kind of more brooding and moody and aloof. Glenn Powell would make a great Butch Cassidy.

Remi: 49:58

When Paul Newman died of lung cancer at 83 in 2008, Robert Redford spoke about how their lifelong friendship first began with Butch and Sundance, stating, playing friends, we became friends. And I got to experience firsthand what that meant to Paul.

Robert Redford: 50:21

And um he said, Let's go with this guy. Let's go with this guy. Had it not been for Paul, um I wouldn't have been in the film, it just wouldn't have happened. It was very generous for a guy to take that kind of a chance. So that changed the that changed the whole story, and Paul and I became really good friends. We had a lot of fun um kidding each other, playing tricks on each other, and so forth. It was just fun.

Ashley: 50:47

That's really sweet. I love that they remained friends throughout their lives, and that Robert Redford was just so grateful to everyone involved for being able to have this experience. Seems like he was a really humble and smart guy.

Remi: 51:04

Robert Redford died peacefully in his sleep at his home in Sundance, Utah on September 16th, 2025, at the age of 89. And that was George Roy Hill's Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.

Ashley: 51:20

Well, with that, I think we should maybe peel back the layers a bit and talk about the real Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.

Remi: 51:30

Giddy up.

Ashley: 51:59

In the mid-1800s, America was in a mindset of westward expansion. The Homestead Act of 1862 was passed to accelerate the development of the American West by granting 160 acres of federal land to settlers who agreed to live on and farm it for five years. The legislation aimed to encourage development of the country outside of southern and eastern states, spurring economic growth, and provide a home for every poor man by making land ownership attainable. While this sounds well and good, the act actually destroyed more people than it helped. The promise of free land and opportunity drew thousands of Americans west after the Civil War, but the reality of frontier life was far harsher than anyone expected. The land was too dry to sustain commercial farming, and many hardworking people seeking a fresh start struggled to grow enough food to feed themselves. To compensate for the poor soil and low yields, the government started giving away even larger tracts of land, sometimes up to four square miles.

Remi: 53:06

But if you can't grow anything on the land, what good is it to them?

Ashley: 53:10

Exactly. It didn't solve the problem because the quality, not quantity of the land was the issue.

Remi: 53:17

There's portions of this country that is very desolate with very dry soil and not a lot of vegetation.

Ashley: 53:25

And these larger plots only left settlers more isolated than ever before. To make matters worse, the capitalist system started working against the small average farmer. Banks took advantage of their desperation, and railroads charged exorbitant rates to ship livestock and bring supplies. For many homesteaders, the dream of independence turned into a life of debt and loneliness. It was into this world that Robert Leroy Parker, the man who would later be known as Butch Cassidy, was born on April 13th, 1866 in Beaver, Utah. He was the oldest child to Maximilian and Ann Parker, a young Mormon couple who had been married for only nine months, but would go on to have a total of 13 children.

Remi: 54:11

That was not hugely uncommon at this time, I don't think.

Ashley: 54:15

Yeah, my grandpa was one of like 11 or 13 or something crazy like that.

Remi: 54:20

Yeah, it was just the way things were done back then.

Ashley: 54:24

Butch's paternal grandfather Robert was baptized into the LDS Church in November 1850. In 1856, the elder Parkers joined 534 other Mormon converts sailing from Liverpool to America. The voyage took five weeks, followed by an 11-day train ride to Iowa City. From there, a group of about 220 set out on foot for Utah. Butch's dad, Max, was just 12 years old when they finally reached Salt Lake City a month later.

Remi: 54:56

Man, you and I just had a 12-hour flight back from Germany not too long ago. I couldn't imagine having to commute this sort of distance back then.

Ashley: 55:06

Butch's mom Anne started the same journey with another 850 converts two months later. In early 1862, Robert Parker was sent by the church to Beaver, Utah, the site of a newly built wool processing plant. With winter approaching and no house yet constructed, the family spent their first cold season living in a dugout, essentially a cave reinforced with poles and covered by a roof of packed dirt.

Remi: 55:34

That is roughing it to the fullest extent.

Ashley: 55:38

Butch Cassidy's parents met in 1865 while performing in a church-sponsored theater group and married the following year. Despite his father's role in bringing Mormon converts to Utah, Max wasn't really committed to his faith. His sporadic attendance at church made him a target of disapproval within the community. For example, while he was on a trip to St. Louis some years later, a saloon keeper swindled Anne out of 50 acres of family land. Upon return, Max sought justice through the local church court, but the bishop ruled in favor of the defendant, a man who, unlike Max, regularly attended services. The Parker family was poor but self-reliant. Anne and Max often worked as ranch hands, which sometimes kept them away for days or even weeks at a time. The children never went hungry, but supervision was lacking. Despite the hardships, the Parkers maintained a strong sense of identity and family pride. Butch was curious, mischievous, energetic, an avid reader, and a natural prankster. For example, he once fed some wine to the neighbors' chickens just to watch them stumble about laughing with his mother and siblings. As he got older, he organized small rodeos with calves and goats, offering free rides to local children and delighting in the attention. In 1878, the Parkers moved three miles south to Circleville, Utah. Their new home was modest, just three rooms and a loft, but it represented hope for a better life. Unfortunately, the hard-working Max wasn't the best farmer. The first winter on the ranch was brutal and killed all but two of their cattle, and the troubles only continued come spring. Fierce winds swept across the plains, blowing away the seeds Max planted by hand. He tried again, only for it to happen once more. The third planting finally took root, but by then too much time was lost for the crop to yield a decent harvest. This set the family back financially for years. The following year, Max got a job at a ranch 85 miles away and brought 13-year-old Butch along. He proved to be a capable ranch hand, but started to develop a reputation as a petty thief. In 1881, Butch left home again, this time to work alongside his mother at a horse and cattle operation 25 miles away. He was there for about a year when 19-year-old outlaw Mike Cassidy turned up looking for work. Butch took to the drifter and viewed him as a mentor of sorts. He admired this young man who lived freely in a world where so many were struggling. Obviously, given the last name, Mike is often credited, or perhaps I should say blamed, for leading Butch down the path that would define his life and legacy. A few months after they met, Mike left the ranch and took Butch with him. They drove a herd of stolen cattle to the remote Henry Mountains, and after they were sold, Mike just left the kid and went on his own.

Remi: 58:43

He just abandoned him there?

Ashley: 58:46

Yeah, isn't that wild? Cassidy briefly returned to Circleville before leaving home for good with two friends in April 1884, just a few days before his eighteenth birthday. In this clip, his sister Lulu Parker Bettison recalls the day he left.

Lula Parker Betenson: 59:03

She duck when he when he left, the morning he left. I've heard them say he had the dog there, old Dash. Sure. And a big yellow dog. And he wanted to go with him. And he patted him put a rope around his neck and said, No boy, you can't go with me this time. And uh my mother fixed lunch for him for food and she filled his pockets full of raisins and down and dipsy, so he had something. And took a big blanket. He said, Oh Mom, I can't take all this. But she insisted that it be cold and she gave him a blanket. He took her in his dog. She was too small. He just took her off her feet. And he gave her the rope to her to hold the dog so it could fall off. He got on his horse. He didn't look back. He rode away as fast as he could go.

Remi: 1:00:04

Leaving home with Nothing but a blanket and a pocket full of raisins.

Ashley: 1:00:09

And Butch was a mama's boy, so this departure, I imagine, was very hard for both him and his mother. Cassidy arrived in Telluride, Colorado a month later and spent the next few years transporting silver ore out of the LaSalle Mountains. From there, he worked at a ranch in Burnt Fork, Wyoming, where he met LZ Lay. More on him later. By the following spring, Cassidy had moved on yet again, this time to a cattle ranch in Nebraska. By fall, he moved to another cattle company in Wyoming, where he stayed for about a year and a half. In the fall of 1886, a restless and ambitious Cassidy asked a friend for a loan to get to Butte, Montana, the center of the booming copper mining industry. He didn't stay for long though. The winter of 1886 and 1887 was a particularly harsh one. A blizzard hit Montana in November and drove temperatures down to 50 degrees below zero. Over a million cattle died across the northern plains, devastating countless ranchers. For Cassidy, the collapse of the cattle industry meant that honest ranch work, the only kind of labor he'd known, all but disappeared. By the time the brutal winter ended, he'd returned to Colorado and met a man who invited him to help run horse races across the state. For the next year and a half, their small group traveled from town to town and earned decent money through betting and racing, often skirting the edges of legality. In June 1888, Cassidy returned to Utah to reclaim a horse he left with a rancher four years earlier. But the reunion didn't go as planned. The man accused him of theft, and he was arrested a week later. While out on bond awaiting trial, Cassidy met two older outlaws, Tom McCartney and Matt Warner. They invited him to Denver, but the conscientious Cassidy stayed behind, determined to clear his name in court. The case was ultimately dismissed in late March or early April 1889. Around that same time, his father made the long trip to see him for the first time in years. Max urged him to come home, but Cassidy just shook his head, gave him some money for the family, and turned away. It was the last time they ever spoke. He then made his way to McCartney's cabin in the Colorado Mancos Mountains, finding his new allies deep in conversation. Turns out, while Cassidy was wrapping up his horse theft charges, McCarty and Warner robbed a bank in Denver and wanted to do it again, this time with Cassidy's help. For several months they prepared by studying the bank and planning their escape route while working as ranch hands. The Telluride Bank Heist went off without a hitch on June 25th, 1889. Cassidy and his partners rode through the night after the robbery, covering more than 80 miles before dawn. They quickly outpaced their pursuers, toying with them by leaving false trails and decoy hoof prints.

Paul Newman: 1:03:14

Sneaky sneaky, sir.

Ashley: 1:03:17

A $500 reward was posted for their capture, dead or alive, attracting bounty hunters and lawmen across the region. They reached Utah in July 1889 and stayed in a remote hideout consisting of canyons, caves, and cliffs known as Robber's Roost for the rest of the summer. By September, Cassidy thought it might be time to turn his life around, go back home to help his father on the farm, and live a quiet, honest life. But the closer he got to Circleville, the weaker he felt. He knew he wasn't cut out to be a rancher and couldn't handle leaving his family behind for the second time. Not long after he returned to Robber's roost, he was spotted by an old acquaintance who ratted him out. A group of deputies descended into the area but started heading in the wrong direction. Knowing they would likely get lost and potentially die of thirst, Cassidy and Warner decided to intervene. They tracked the group down, signaled them, and pointed in the direction of a nearby spring.

Remi: 1:04:20

That's awful courteous of them.

Ashley: 1:04:22

While the deputies and their horses were wet in their whistles, Cassidy and Warner stepped out from behind a boulder, disarmed the men, and took their guns, saddles, and pants before riding away. The search for the Tellu Ride robbers came to an end shortly after. While Warner and McCarty celebrated by drinking themselves into oblivion, Cassidy decided it was time to go out on his own for a while. A week or two later, he found himself in Wyoming working at a friend's ranch. He stayed in Wyoming from 1889 to 1894. It's difficult to know exactly what he was up to during this time due to sparse records. But one thing that is for certain is that he never stopped moving. Restlessness defined Butch Cassidy. He drifted across Wyoming, likely venturing into Texas and Nebraska, taking on work as a cowboy, bartender, ranch hand, cattle wrangler, and butcher. He'd typically work somewhere for a month or so, disappear, and turn up elsewhere in the company of some grifter, often flashing a wad of cash. But just as quickly the money disappeared, lost to gambling, drinking, or random acts of generosity that he became known for. Despite his vices, Butch Cassidy was beloved. He was cheerful, accepting, charismatic, and well-mannered. Even children flocked to him, eager for a piece of candy or a horse ride. In 1891, Cassidy's luck began to turn. John Chapman, a well-respected horse breeder, had grown tired of losing his stock to rustlers. Determined to make an example out of someone, he set his sights on Cassidy, hoping that putting him behind bars would send a message to every horse thief in the territory. Chapman's men tracked Cassidy and his associate, Al Hayner, across Wyoming. It took a while, but the men were finally apprehended on April 13, 1892. On July 15th, they were charged with grand larceny a single horse in October 1891. Although bail was high, Cassidy's lawyers arranged for four businessmen to pay his bond, arguing that he wasn't a flight risk because of his strong desire to clear his name and denounce his accusers. One thing I will say about Cassidy is that he was a man of his word. If he decided he was gonna show up to court, man, he was gonna be there. There were also several times where he was transported during arrests, where he wasn't even handcuffed because he would just tell the lawman transporting him that he wouldn't try to escape, and he didn't.

Remi: 1:07:05

Sounds like a very likable criminal.

Ashley: 1:07:08

Cassidy and Hayner's trial for stealing a $40 horse began on June 20, 1893. The prosecution was worried a jury wouldn't convict Cassidy because he was so well liked. So they developed a backup plan. On the second day of trial, the men were served with a second warrant for stealing another horse in August 1891. If they lost the first trial, they would have a second bite at the apple. Despite being completely blindsided in court, the judge denied defense counsel's request for a continuance. At trial, Cassidy claimed he got the horse legitimately since the seller had a bill of sale. After two hours of deliberation, both men were acquitted. The second trial started in July 1894. Even though Al Hayner was again acquitted, Cassidy was convicted and sentenced to two years in the Wyoming State Penitentiary. 27-year-old Cassidy was a model prisoner and soon had Lawman petitioning for his release. In September 1895, the judge who convicted him sent a six and a half page letter to the governor requesting a pardon. Even several officers who previously hunted him called him one of the finest men they knew. A man of honor, a natural-born leader.

Remi: 1:08:28

That is very high praise for a criminal from authority figures.

Ashley: 1:08:34

Right? A man of honor? Who knows if these character references did any good, but he was released from prison six months early on January 19, 1896. After his year and a half prison sentence, Cassidy quickly returned to a life of crime. Come the summer of 1896, he teamed up with several associates, the most notable being LZ Lay and Henry Bub Meeks, and they started planning a bank robbery in Montpelier, Idaho. The money was going to be used to help Cassidy's old pal Warner hire a lawyer since he was facing the death penalty for killing two men. The outlaws arrived in Mount Pelier in July to familiarize themselves with the area while working at a ranch. Cassidy was the clear leader during the August 13th, 1896 bank robbery. He remained characteristically calm throughout the endeavor and reassured customers that the outlaws intended to steal as much money as possible without harming anyone. They made out with about $16,500, a sum that required multiple trips on horseback to move. It took a few weeks, but Lawman and journalists eventually found a reliable source who helped them figure out the identity of the robbers, Matt Warner's wife Rose. Their marriage had been violent and troubled. He once kicked her so hard that her leg had to be amputated. She was eager to expose her husband and those assisting him in raising money to fight his legal battles. In September, the Salt Lake Tribune published a story naming the robbers behind the heist, but they continued to elude authorities. The Wild Bunch, one of the most notorious outlaw gangs of the American West, was born.

Remi: 1:10:25

There's a movie about the Wild Bunch, too.

Ashley: 1:10:28

I looked it up, it's not based on them.

Remi: 1:10:30

Oh, okay. Never mind.

Ashley: 1:10:32

Yeah, I came across the movie as I was kind of doing some Googling to fill in some gaps, and that came up, and I did look into it, and it has the same name as Butch Cassidy's gang, but it's not based on him or his crew, which does seem pretty misleading. While the Wild Bunch never numbered more than 15 to 20, no more than six were ever involved in a single heist. There were occasional members such as Harvey Logan, aka Kid Curry, The Guy Who Gets Kicked in the Balls, William Curly Harris, and Ben Kilpatrick, aka the tall Texan. The men frequently brought along their girlfriends like Laura Bouillon, Annie Rogers, and Ethel Place, who is Edda in the film. Other than Cassidy, there were two other core members. First up is Elsie Lay, a probable ancestor of the Lay Potato Chip Company.

Remi: 1:11:30

That is random.

Ashley: 1:11:33

For years he was Cassidy's closest confidant, especially after he severed ties with Al Hayner, whose acquittal for horse theft was widely seen as a reward for cooperating with authorities. As I briefly mentioned earlier, Ley likely met Cassidy at a Colorado ranch in 1884. At the time, he invited Cassidy to join a scheme distributing counterfeit money smuggled from Canada. In popular culture, aspects of his relationship with Cassidy are often incorporated into how Sundance is portrayed.

Remi: 1:12:08

Obviously, because they would have to pay Lay's potato chips royalties.

Ashley: 1:12:13

And that finally brings us to our last primary player, Harry Alonso Longbaugh, aka the Sundance Kid. He was born in 1867 around Montclair, Pennsylvania. Like Cassidy, he grew up poor. His father held inconsistent low-level employment and struggled to provide for his five children. By the age of eight, Sundance was working on canal boats under the supervision of his uncle. At 14, he left home for the vast open spaces of the West, drawn by the empty landscapes he read about in books. Fourteen years old, that is insane. Sundance's temperament contrasted sharply to Cassidy's. Where Butch was charming and playful, Sundance was moody, aloof, and more aggressive. Like many frontier men, he drifted into crime gradually, starting with relatively minor offenses. He wasn't trying to get rich quick, but he took advantage of small opportunities that appeared, like stealing a horse from a careless rancher who left it unguarded. In 1886, he was arrested in Wyoming for stealing $80. When the sheriff returned to transport him the next morning, the thief had disappeared, leaving behind the handcuffs still attached to the bedpost. By February 1887, he was working on a ranch in northern Montana. Thanks to that harsh winter I mentioned earlier, he found himself without a job, food, or money. Forced to sell his saddle, he rode bareback through Wyoming seeking work. The rancher who hired him reported him to authorities after a gun went missing. Two weeks later, he was arrested in a neighboring city on suspicion of horse theft. When a detective came to bring him back to Sundance, Utah, he managed once again to free himself from the shackles and leapt off the moving train, earning him the nickname the Sundance Kid.

Remi: 1:14:30

Rightfully deserved, those are some pretty smooth getaways.

Ashley: 1:14:34

Sundance was finally apprehended and charged with three counts of grand larceny in June 1887. He pled guilty to one and served 18 months. He was released in February 1889. On May 16th, he and four others were holed up in a dugout in Oil Creek, Wyoming when two deputies burst in. He was arrested, quickly posted bail, and headed for a friend's ranch in Canada. He stayed for about a year before moving back to Montana. On November 29th, 1892, Sundance and several others attempted to rob a train, but the heist quickly ran into problems. Their masks kept slipping off, and since no one on board knew the combination to the safe, they only made off with 65 bucks. He's thought to have crossed paths with Butch Cassidy soon after. And now this is kind of where the movie begins. The Wild Bunch's glory days were from 1897 to 1901. Membership was fluid. Men came and went depending on whose idea a job was or who showed the most interest. But the core of the gang, including Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, remained constant. Despite their outlaw reputation, the Wild Bunch adhered to a strict moral code. No killing. Shootings were rare and only occurred in self-defense. Compared to other gangs of the time, the Wild Bunch behaved far more humanely, but that doesn't mean they were always gentle. They knew that the appearance of ruthlessness was essential to ensuring each robbery went smoothly and safely. Intimidation rather than violence was their preferred method, and they understood that the threat of force was often just as effective. Their crimes were carefully planned, and in most cases no one was harmed. They stole from banks, trains, and companies, but never from the ordinary people who lived and worked around them. Even at the height of their criminal exploits, Cassidy frequently fantasized about going straight. After every large heist when the money ran out, he dreamed of leaving the outlaw life behind and settling down as a rancher. But old habits die hard. The gang's next major operation after the 1896 Montpelier bank heist took place in Castlegate, Utah. By then, Sundance was inseparable from his new girlfriend, Ethel Place. The men targeted the payroll of the Pleasant Valley Coal Company, which transported roughly $8,000 in cash every two weeks via railroad. Since Sundance was away planning a bank robbery in South Dakota, the payroll robbery was orchestrated by Cassidy and Elsie Lay. The group arrived in Castlegate on May 20th, 1897, the day before the robbery. They waited outside for the paymaster and executed the plan with quick precision. Using the alias Leroy Parker, Cassidy laid low at a ranch in Wyoming for several months. By early 1898, he reunited with Elsie at a ranch in New Mexico. The Wild Bunches' first train robbery came on June 2nd, 1899, near the Wilcox station along the Union Pacific tracks in Wyoming. At 2 18 a.m., the engineer spotted a large man, likely Sundance, waving a red lantern, the universal signal for stop here, trouble ahead. Butch approached from behind with his pistol drawn, while George Curry, Harvey Logan, his brother Looney, and their cousin Bob Lee handled the crew. The engineer and his men were dragged from the engine and locked inside a mail car. The gang attempted to destroy a newly constructed bridge with 10 pounds of gunpowder, but it remained intact. Using TNT, they blew two safes open, resulting in the cache being coated with the remnants of the raspberries the cars were holding.

Remi: 1:18:52

Raspberries.

Ashley: 1:18:54

Yeah, it said all the money was just covered in raspberry jam, and this actually later resulted in one member of the crew being arrested because he tried to use the red stain money, and they were like, this is from that train robbery.

Remi: 1:19:08

What a silly way to get caught.

Ashley: 1:19:10

But no matter, by 3:30 a.m., the gang rode away with $55,000. The robbery put Cassidy on the map as a national figure. Efforts to capture the Wild Bunch doubled after a sheriff was killed in a shootout, causing the gang to split up for the time being. LZ Lay quit the gang while planning another train robbery in July 1899. It ended with him being sentenced to life in prison for second-degree murder. Everyone from the Wild Bunch gets captured or killed after they separate from Cassidy, so Sundance was smart to stay with him as long as possible. In early 1900, Cassidy headed to Salt Lake City once again, intending to leave the outlaw life behind. He found a job he enjoyed, but since his boss suspected he was the leader of an outlaw gang, he was demoted to a position with less responsibilities. He left Utah after learning he would have to take orders from someone else. Later that year, he visited his attorney to discuss a possible deal. A minor punishment for that last train robbery in exchange for a clean slate. The details are murky, but a subsequent train heist put an end to the possibility of retribution. The Tipton train robbery of August 29, 1900, played out similarly to the last one. Cassidy climbed on board, flashed his gun, assured passengers they wouldn't be harmed, and made away with a fat payday. Twenty-one days later, Cassidy, Sundance, and Bill Carver robbed a bank in Winnamucca, Nevada. Cassidy dropped a bag of cash as the gang galloped away. They scrambled to pick up the bills and coins, leaving five to six thousand dollars behind on the street. Wow, what a lucky day for any onlookers. Riflemen from a train paralleling their route fired from the engineer's cab, fatally wounding Sundance's horse. But thanks to their strategy of stationing new horses every few miles along their escape routes, the gang escaped unharmed.

Remi: 1:21:22

This is in the film they do swap horses multiple times when they are being pursued by the relentless horse riders.

Ashley: 1:21:32

It's really smart. It made it so they could ride their horses at top speed, and by the time they got tired, they would just leave them and hop on a new one. It's a very smart escape plan, and is probably what made it possible for them to get so far ahead of any pursuer so quickly.

Remi: 1:21:50

That is very clever.

Ashley: 1:21:53

The group celebrated their success at the wedding of Bill Carver in Fort Worth, Texas. It was the official last gathering of the Wild Bunch. Less than a year later, Carver was dead, and Ben Kilpatrick and Harvey Logan were in prison. The escalation in the frequency of robberies during this time reflected Cassidy's growing awareness that the outlaw era was ending.

Remi: 1:22:17

So he was trying to squeeze in as much as he could at the last minute?

Ashley: 1:22:23

Exactly. So he could make a escape and have some sort of nest egg to start a new life on.

Remi: 1:22:29

Well, he has been wanting to go straight for a really long time, so this is the opportunity, I guess.

Ashley: 1:22:35

A few months after leaving Fort Worth, Cassidy, Sundance, and Ethel reunited and spent several weeks enjoying themselves in New York City.

Remi: 1:22:44

So that's what those photos were. I literally thought it was just Catherine Ross, Robert Redford, and Paul Newman out having fun together in New York. I'm surprised that actually is historically accurate.

Ashley: 1:22:58

On February 20th, 1901, they boarded a ship for a 30-day voyage to Buenos Aires. Once there, they visited George Newberry, a dentist from New York who'd been in Argentina for nearly 25 years. After telling him about their interest in raising sheep, cattle, and horses, he pointed them to Chabut, a small village near the Andes Mountains on the Argentina-Chile border.

Remi: 1:23:25

I just want to say I love the name of this town.

Ashley: 1:23:29

The outlaws were immediately impressed by the peaceful remote area. Within a few months, they filed a claim for more than 1,500 acres of land and bought 26 horses, 500 cattle, and 1,300 sheep. They named their cattle ranch El Porbener, which means the future in Spanish. Cassidy, Sundance, and Ethel made a life for themselves in Argentina, using the names James Santiago Ryan, Henry Enrique Place, and Eta Place. They built separate houses, bought a Springer Spaniel, dressed well, and spent afternoons reading or drinking tea. Despite transitioning into lawful living, the possibility of a quick escape was never far from their minds. Every room in their cabins had a door leading outside, and three horses were always saddled and ready to go, regardless of the season. The group was well liked by their neighbors. Cassidy was gregarious, dependable, sociable, and friendly with the kids. Sundance was more aloof, but everyone knew he was a competent and genuine cowboy. And Ethel charmed everyone with her beauty, an expert rifle and horse riding skills. In mid-March 1903, a private detective showed up at Newberry's dental office with pictures and questions. Although the agency got wind of the general location of the outlaws, they didn't receive support in the States to continue their investigation. In shareholders' eyes, as long as Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid were abroad, they could do whatever they wanted. Cassidy rooted himself in South America while Sundance and Ethel made annual trips back to New York, most likely to visit his family. In March 1904, Cassidy opened a small country store on the property for extra cash and something to do. The next month, local police visited the homestead while investigating a robbery committed by two ranch hands who previously stayed with Butch at Sundance. Cassidy denied knowing anything about the men or the crime. Despite low funds and signs that the law was closing in on them, the outlaws had no choice but to stay through the winter. They were still there 10 months later when another American committed robbery resulted in authorities issuing a precautionary warrant for Costid and Sundance's arrest. Since the local sheriff was fond of the three, especially Ethel, he was reluctant to enforce the warrant and dragged his feet for months while the trio sold their property, settled debts, and prepared to leave. This ended up in him getting fired, and in May 1905, the replacement attempted to arrest them but found their cabins empty. The group arrived in Chile on June 28, 1905. The next day, Sundance and Ethel set sail for San Francisco and stayed with his brother, posing as a married couple named Mr. and Mrs. Matthews. The three reunited in December and returned to Argentina where they carried out a bank robbery, resulting in newspapers reporting their true identities. They briefly returned to Chibut to collect whatever money had been made from the sale of their livestock before separating once again. Cassidy reconnected with some old cowboy friends in Buenos Aires, while Sundance and Ethel returned to San Francisco and later Denver. During this time, Sundance's drinking worsened. He got wasted after dropping Ethel off for an appendectomy and woke up in a boarding house the next morning.

Remi: 1:27:11

I cannot imagine what an appendectomy must have been like back then. Oh my god.

Ashley: 1:27:18

When Sundance couldn't get room service, he fired several shots into the ceiling, prompting the manager to call the police. He took off for South America before they arrived. Can you imagine how pissed Ethel was after recovering from her surgery and her boyfriend, of years at this point, is just gone. She never sees him again.

Remi: 1:27:39

She never sees him again? No. I know that you would be furious if I ever tried to pull any shit like that.

Ashley: 1:27:46

Oh, I would hire a pirate investigator to hunt your ass down.

Remi: 1:27:50

I know you would.

Ashley: 1:27:52

In August or September 1906, Sundance found work breaking in mules for contractors building railroads in Bolivia and accepted a job transporting herds across the country. The final stop on their journey was at a coal mine in La Paz. Since his boss liked him but didn't have any more work, he asked the manager of the mine if he could use an extra hand. Sundance was told to report to Santiago Maxwell, the payroll manager who was responsible for transporting up to $100,000 through the mountains. Imagine Sundance's surprise when he discovered that payroll transporter Santiago Maxwell was none other than his old pal Butch Cassidy.

Remi: 1:28:38

What are the odds of that?

Ashley: 1:28:41

Like a million to one.

Remi: 1:28:43

Also, great alias, I must say.

Ashley: 1:28:47

I also found it so ironic that he was responsible for transporting payroll or organizing the transporting payroll when that was one of their primary heist targets.

Remi: 1:29:00

I wish this had been depicted in the film. I think Newman and Redford would have had fun with this sort of scene.

Ashley: 1:29:08

Can you imagine? I would not have been able to keep my cool and been like, oh hi, Santiago. I would have lost it.

Remi: 1:29:15

I would have burst out laughing the second that I saw him.

Ashley: 1:29:18

In an entirely different country, too. They separated in Argentina and now they're in Bolivia.

Remi: 1:29:23

It's just meant to be. These two are uh a duo that should be together.

Ashley: 1:29:29

The two tried to keep a low profile, but a week or two later, a coworker heard them reminiscing about their past escapades. The boss learned about their chitter chatter and called them in for a meeting. But Cassidy assured him by saying, We don't rob the people we work for. And he wasn't lying.

Remi: 1:29:47

He is a man of his word.

Ashley: 1:29:50

After befriending a mine assistant, Butch and Sundance opened up about their true identities. They confessed that they had given up hope of becoming legitimate ranchers since the law was always hot on their tails, regardless of their lifestyle. Constant movement was their safe. Option. The men had to quit their jobs after Sundance got drunk and boasted about the Argentinian bank robbery. They found work at a company that hauled passengers and freight by mule, going by the names of George Lowe and Frank Smith while they planned the heist that would turn out to be their last. On November 4th, 1908, Butch and Sundance stopped three men transporting weekly payroll. Two days later, they checked into the last available room in San Vicente, unaware that three soldiers and a policeman were stationed nearby. The mayor of the town made the connection and notified them. While eating dinner by candlelight, Cassidy and Sundance were confronted by the men surrounding the cabin. After a few moments of silence, Cassidy fired his gun and fatally wounded one of the soldiers. A prolonged gunfight with intermittent bursts of firing lasted several hours. Around 2 a.m. during a lull in the shootout, the mayor instructed town folks to surround the cabin to prevent Butch and Sundance from escaping. This seems so irresponsible. There's just bursts of gunfire for hours, and the mayor's like, Hey Karen and Susan, can you block the back entrance?

Remi: 1:31:23

Yeah, no thanks, Mr. Mayor. I'm gonna stay in my home.

Ashley: 1:31:26

Well, around this time, onlookers supposedly heard a scream from inside, followed by two successive shots. Authorities enter the cabin around 7 a.m. They found Sundance lying on his back near the doorway with a gun in his hand. He was shot once in the temple and armed. Cassidy was sitting on a bench behind the door with his arms around a large jug. He was shot in the forehead and multiple times in the arm. Evidence suggests Cassidy shot Sundance, possibly sparing him from capture, before turning the gun on himself.

Remi: 1:32:01

I did not see this coming at all.

Ashley: 1:32:05

Cassidy and Sundance were buried in a small cemetery in San Vicente, but their actual gravesites remain unknown. In the interview clip that I played earlier with his sister, she said she and her family actually do know the exact location of their burial sites, but refuse to disclose the location because they don't want people flocking to it. Relatively few people had heard of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid before the film premiered in September 1969. It made them household names and sparked scholarly interest in Butch Cassidy and the Wild Bunch. And that is the true story of George Roy Hill's Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. I am excited to hear your thoughts, Remy.

Remi: 1:32:54

There are more similarities than I was anticipating. And it does seem like they really got Butch and Sundance's personalities down in the film, with Butch being the more outgoing, talkative, charismatic one, and Sundance being the more quiet, short-tempered, irritable one that was more prone to violence. So I'm actually pleasantly surprised at the amount of similarities.

Ashley: 1:33:23

From what I read, there were several people that were consultants to the scriptwriter, or who came onto the set that did have some sort of prior knowledge of Butch Cassidy, like his sister, or even some people that just knew him briefly. And what everyone said is that they were impressed by Paul Newman's ability to really portray his personality on screen. Obviously, the dialogue is made up, but everyone said that Paul Newman really was Butch Cassidy.

Remi: 1:33:55

And I think because I was not super familiar with Paul Newman or his career going into this, I had assumed that this was his sort of personality on and off the screen. But upon doing further research and seeing him in interviews, he was not Butch Cassidy in real life. He was playing a character. And knowing what I know now, he did a damn good job with it. They both did, Redford and Newman, managed to capture the essence of these characters.

Ashley: 1:34:27

And before we get to our final verdict, which I know what I'm gonna say, I am very curious to hear what you're gonna say. We do need to do our objection of the week.

Objection of the Week: 1:34:38

Your Honor, I object! And why is that, Mr. Eed? Because it's devastating to my case! Overrule. Good call!

Remi: 1:34:46

I will start things off this time, and in case this is your first time listening to the podcast, first off, thank you for listening. And this is the segment where we highlight the most superfluous change made from the adaptation from the real events to the silver screen. My objection this week is the fact that they renamed the Wild Bunch the Hole in the Wall Gang, which is a terrible name for a gang.

Ashley: 1:35:18

I had that too. I think that's just such a weird change. Everyone knew it was Butch Cassidy and the Wild Bunch. I don't understand why they didn't go with that. It's such a much better name anyway.

Remi: 1:35:29

Maybe because that Wild Bunch movie came out before this one? But to go with Hole in the Wall Gang, like that's an awful name. And yeah, Wild Bunch is much, much better and should have been the name of the gang in this film.

Ashley: 1:35:46

Okay, my change is so, so, so, so small. I don't even know if it's even fair to do this. It's just so small and means nothing. But in the movie, when there's that newspaper article that reveals their identities, it's the Salt Lake City Herald. In reality, it was the Salt Lake City Tribune.

Remi: 1:36:10

That is pretty minor, and I would say under the criteria of this part of the show where we are highlighting the most minor unnecessary change. You are the winner this time, Ashley. Congratulations.

Ashley: 1:36:26

It's such a small detail. I even wrote it on my notes to double check it when you had mentioned it, and I was just like buzzing with excitement because I was like, there's no way this can't win. It's so small and just means nothing.

Remi: 1:36:41

And you knew there was zero chance that I would have caught that inaccuracy. So very good job, Ashley. That's pretty impressive. Very good highlight of a meaningless change. But now let's head to the final showdown.

Verdict : 1:36:58

Our verdict. At the conclusion of each episode, our hosts will deliver a verdict based on the film's accuracy. If the film is an honest portrayal of the events, then it will earn a not guilty verdict. If the adaptation is mostly factual, but creative liberties were taken for the sake of entertainment, the film will be declared a mistrial. But if the film ultimately strays too far from the truth, then it will be condemned as guilty and sentenced to a life behind bars.

Remi: 1:37:28

Ashley, you can kick things off this time because I started the objection portion.

Ashley: 1:37:34

Alrighty, I'm gonna preface this by saying I am completely shocked at what I landed on. I was convinced by the gecko of not only this podcast episode, but the entire research leading up to it, that this was going to be guilty for me. There was no doubt in my mind. But I'm gonna go with mistrial. And here's why. I think it's pretty impressive that the actors were able to embody the characters they were playing. I also think the movie did a good job illustrating that Butch and Sundance were really the leaders or the figureheads of the Wild Bunch gang, while everyone else was kind of supporting cast characters. And it seems that there was a lot of similarities between the robberies that they did, how they escaped, aspects like that. My biggest qualm that led me to reconsidering the mistrial was the fact that they really left out all of the stuff with the three going to Argentina. Clearly, the director just skipped over that and picked up again after they had reunited in Bolivia, and then we go from there. Obviously, because there is not clear documentation or really people to talk to, it's difficult to turn this into a script or a screenplay because we don't know what these people's conversations or day-to-day interactions were like. But despite that, it seems like the essence of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, from their personalities to their friendship to their broader exploits, were depicted in this movie. So for all these reasons, I'm giving this a mistrial.

Remi: 1:39:13

Well, I'm gonna have to disagree with you, cowgirl. This is getting a guilty verdict from me. I do agree that Robert Redford and Paul Newman captured the essence of these characters. But this movie is still like super meandering. There is a huge chunk of it where they are just playing cat and mouse with these pursuers.

Ashley: 1:39:39

But that's what happened.

Remi: 1:39:41

But the way that it is portrayed is much more light-hearted than I feel like the situation was. And there is a lot of scenarios here where Sundance is in the place of Lei, the potato chip guy that you mentioned. So it does have the essence of the story, but I don't think that the framework is there. Especially not at the end, with their very tragic ending, and Edda and Sundance's last moment together, too. Both of those were changed drastically. I think a lot of the framing of the story was changed drastically. I'm still not a super fan of this film, but I do appreciate what Newman and Redford brought to these parts, because it seems like they brought the most of Butch and Sundance to this film. And because of that, I've gotta give it a guilty. I think Redford and Newman did great, but I am still not a fan of this film, and I don't think that it did an accurate job of telling the story. Like you said, the essence is there, but I don't think that the actual framework of the story is there.

Ashley: 1:40:53

I don't know. I think your perception of the film is clouding your verdict, but hey, that's what happens in real-life jury, so I'll accept.

Remi: 1:41:01

But what do we have coming up two weeks from now, Ashley? Do you want to let our listeners in?

Ashley: 1:41:07

Yes, I am very excited for next week. It is our seasonal switcheroo episode, and we will be talking about the movie and Oscar nominated film, not sure if it's an Oscar winner. I will find that out soon enough. A Few Good Men, starring Tom Cruise, Demi Moore, Kevin Bacon, and Jack Nicholson.

Remi: 1:41:29

You can't handle the truth. I was surprised to find out this was based on a true story. And because this is our seasonal switcheroo, I will be, of course, doing the research into the true story, and Ashley will be diving into the film, which is, I believe, written by Aaron Sorgin.

Ashley: 1:41:52

You are correct, it is. I've started doing some of the pre-production research for it, and it's actually started as a play before it turned into a movie. Both written by Aaron Sorgan, who has a personal connection to the source material.

Remi: 1:42:08

Well, buckle up because there is gonna be a lot of dialogue. And I look forward to finding out more about the true story that at least loosely inspired the screen adaptation. I hardly know any of it.

Ashley: 1:42:23

And I have not seen the movie, so it'll be a enlightening experience for both of us.

Remi: 1:42:30

And for all of our American listeners out there, just want to wish you all a happy Thanksgiving. And to all the other listeners out there around the globe, thank you so much for listening. And until next time, court is adjourned.

A Few Good Men trailer: 1:42:46

The facts of the case are these. On midnight of September 6th, the accused entered the barracks room of their platoon mate. They tied his arms and legs with tape and forced a rag into its throat. He drowned in his own blood and was pronounced dead at 37 minutes past midnight. I don't think you're fit to head of a defense.

Paul Newman: 1:43:07

Well now it takes so many hours to discover I'm not fit to head with a defense.

A Few Good Men trailer: 1:43:11

You want to investigate me? Roll the dice and take your chances. I eat breakfast 300 yards and 4,000 humans who are trained to kill me. But don't think for one second you can come down here, flash a badge, and make me nervous. Two years or almost six months. Not the only one, of course. Why not?

Paul Newman: 1:43:33

But you'll lose.

A Few Good Men trailer: 1:43:34

You think Satiago was murdered?

Paul Newman: 1:43:36

Private Satiago is dead because he had no honor. Think God was watching. How do you feel about that there?

the Sundance Kid: 1:43:45

That's good to meet.