Erin Brockovich

In the season premiere of our sixth season, we tackle Steven Soderbergh’s Academy Award winning film Erin Brockovich(2000), starring Julia Roberts and Aaron Eckhart. We break down the true events behind the water contamination in Hinkley, explore the legal battle that became one of the largest settlements of its kind, and examine how Brockovich’s role in the case compares to the version brought to life on screen. Along the way, we discuss the impact of the case on environmental awareness, the people affected, and the lasting legacy of the story behind the movie. How accurate is the film’s portrayal of the case against Pacific Gas & Electric (PG&E)? Tune in now to find out.

Primary Sources:

• Brockovich, Erin & Eliot, Mark. Take it From Me: Life’s a Struggle but You Can Win. McGraw-Hill Companies (2001).
• The Gentlewoman (2016)
• Ebsco (2023)
• People (2025)

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Theme: DARKNESS (feat. EdKara) by Ghost148 

Transcript

Remi 0:10

Welcome to Criminal Adaptations, where we take a look at some of your favorite movies and the true crime stories that inspired them. I'm Remy. I spent over a decade working in the film and television industry in Los Angeles, California.

Ashley 0:24

And I'm Ashley, a clinical psychologist and forensic evaluator in the state of Oregon.

Remi 0:30

Welcome to season six, everybody. I can't believe we have made it this far. It is a phenomenal feat, and I am happy we made it. Welcome back, everyone. Ashley, how are you doing today?

Ashley 0:46

You know, today was a little bit of a rough day. I hate testifying. It is something I do have to do as part of my job, and I had to testify today, and it was not a pleasant experience. And they started re-roofing our house, and oh man, it was loud.

Why Remy Hates Julia Roberts

Remi 1:04

Yes, we are recording this episode much later than we normally do because there was a bunch of pounding going on above our heads and people walking around, and our dog was going crazy, and it was just impossible to record a podcast with all of that nonsense going on. But we're here, we're at it. It's later than normal, but we're gonna do it. And you know what we're gonna do? We're gonna talk about Aaron Brockovich.

Ashley 1:33

Our blockbuster season six premiere. I am so excited. I have been pushing for Aaron Brokovic for a very long time. I love this film. I thought I was going to get you to be a Brokovich believer, and from what I've heard of your little under-the-breath comments throughout the week, spoiler alert, I did not succeed in my quest.

Remi 1:56

I will get into my grievances shortly. Did you go into this knowing anything about the real Aaron Brokkovich, or were you just familiar with the film?

Ashley 2:06

I was familiar with the film and the general background of the case. But I think most of what I knew from the general background of the case was from the movie. So I just assumed everything I saw on the silver screen was true.

Remi 2:20

And like you said, you have been pushing for us to do this film for quite some time, and I have been the holdout here. I have never seen this film before doing this episode. And that is mainly because I am not really a fan of Julia Roberts. I just don't find her relatable and have never really connected with her or any of her films. This includes Pretty Woman, Nodding Hill, and even in films where she isn't the main character, like Hook, Closer, or even The Oceans films. I always just think that another actress would be a better fit for the role. She is always just Julia Roberts to me. And not someone that I find particularly relatable or authentic. In fact, I think the first time that I ever thought she was okay in a movie was last year in 2025 in the Luca Guadinho film after the hunt with Andrew Garfield. But that's probably the first time I didn't actively dislike her in a film. And spoiler alert, I hated her as Erin Brokovich. Like, hate, hate, hated her. I could not stand her or her character in this film, which is pretty crazy, because she's portraying what should be an extremely sympathetic character, and basically won every single acting award imaginable for playing this role. But honestly, I just don't get it. I don't think I will ever be a fan of Julia Roberts.

Ashley 3:58

Yeah, to our listeners out there, Remy has just kind of been stomping around the house all week, just mumbling under his breath how much he hates Julia Roberts. And she's not my favorite actress by any means. She is to a lot of people. I do think she has good roles. I liked her in Notting Hill a lot. I agree with you. And after the hunt, her latest film, I mean, there was buzz that she was going to be nominated for an Oscar for a good long while. That did not happen, but she was really good in that movie. I also really like her in August Osage County, where she actually was nominated for Best Supporting Actress in the Academy Awards. And what about my best friend's wedding? She does play a bitch, but she embraces it.

Remi 4:42

I just never find her characters likable. And it works in some films where you're not supposed to like her character, but in a lot of films, you're kind of supposed to sympathize with her. And in my best friend's wedding, I was sympathizing for Cameron Diaz. That poor woman was having Julia Roberts just walk in out of nowhere and try and steal her fiance. It was fucked up. Don't get me started on Runaway Bride.

Ashley 5:09

Well, I don't think she was supposed to be a particularly likable character in that movie. In either of those movies, actually.

Remi 5:17

I do know you're a big fan of the film Stepmom. I don't mind that film, but it's mainly because of Susan Sarandin's performance. But I know you're a really big fan of that one.

How The Movie Got Made

Ashley 5:28

Thank you for reminding me. I was literally scrolling through Julia Roberts IMDB. And when I got to Set Mom, I was like, oh, I got my favorite movie. Time to close out and let's start. And I somehow forgot. I love Set Mom. It's one of my top 10 favorite movies. I am not ashamed to admit, but I agree with you. It's really because of Susan Seren's performance, not necessarily Julia Roberts.

Remi 5:52

Well, what about the film's director, Steven Soderbergh? Are you familiar with his movies at all?

Ashley 5:59

Well, I do know we covered The Informant, which is one I have not seen. I am looking at your little list here, Magic Mike. I have seen at Magic Mike. I actually have not seen Traffic.

Remi 6:11

That is one that we have to watch. That actually came out the same year as the film we are discussing today. And he was nominated for an Oscar for both films, which is pretty rare.

Ashley 6:24

Oh, so that same year he was nominated twice?

Remi 6:27

He was nominated for this film and he was nominated for Traffic. He won for Traffic, but he was the first director since Francis Ford Coppola, way back in the Godfather 2 days, to be nominated twice in the same category. It's a pretty big accomplishment.

Ashley 6:45

That is rare. I've listened to podcasts where they've talked about directors who had two good movies come out in the same year where one was better than the other, and only one, the one that wasn't as good, was nominated. Don't ask me for citations or who I'm talking about, because I don't recall, but I have heard this.

Remi 7:03

And I personally wasn't into a lot of his earlier work, like out of sight, traffic, and this film. It just, I don't know, I wasn't really into it. But he began playing around and taking a lot more chances with films in 2008 like Che, The Girlfriend Experience, Magic Mike, like you mentioned, and even the TV series The Nick. And he has shot entire films on iPhones. He has done a lot of really creatively unique filmmaking in my experience. And I'm always interested to see what he comes out with. I don't always love it, but I admire the diversity that he has accomplished in his career.

Ashley 7:46

Was it his last movie, the one with Lucy Liu? I think it was called The Presence.

Remi 7:51

He did do that one. That is the film that is entirely from the point of view of the ghost that is haunting a house. It's a really unique concept. Again, not crazy about the film itself, but it was interesting.

Ashley 8:05

He really is a diverse director, and whenever I see when he has something coming out, I really am interested in watching it.

Remi 8:12

He definitely seems like a director that the general public probably isn't very aware of. And a lot of his films go under the radar. He just had a film with Michael Fassbender and Kate Blanchett that came out last year that was a terrible bomb. And the name is Escaping Me at this time. So if you know what that film is called, please send us an email. I'm sure I'll look it up as soon as we're done recording this episode. But enough dilly-dallying. Should we dive into the pre-production of Steven Soderbergh's Aaron Brockovich?

Ashley 8:46

I'm probably more excited to hear about it than you are to talk about it.

SPEAKER_03 8:50

All you lawyers do is complicate situations that aren't complicated. Do you know why people think all lawyers are backstabbing bloodsucking scumbags? Because they are.

Remi 8:58

Aaron Brokovich is a 2000 American film directed by Steven Soderbergh, written by Susanna Grant, and starring Julia Roberts as Aaron Brockovich, with Albert Finney and Aaron Eckard in supporting roles. The idea for the film began when executive producer Carla Santos Schamberg happened to learn about Brockovich's story through a shared chiropractor. I guess there is no doctor-patient confidentiality with chiropractors.

Ashley 9:28

I do have some insights into this. So she would go to this chiropractor because she was in a severe car accident years, years, years prior. And as she was working on the Hinkley thief, she would talk about things she would find, and her chiropractor was like, this is crazy. You need to have your own movie. And that's how it all got started.

Remi 9:49

Intrigued, Santos Schamburg invited Brockovich to her home to hear the story firsthand. She later recalled being captivated by the circumstances surrounding a twice divorced mother of three who had limited financial resources and no formal legal training, playing a key role in uncovering widespread water contamination in Hinckley, California. Brockovich sold the film rights to her story to Universal Pictures in 1997 for a reported$100,000, and the project soon went into development at Jersey Films.

Ashley 10:27

Which is, apparently, I just found this out, the film company that was owned by Danny DeVito.

Remi 10:33

It is his production company, and when I was sending scripts out in Los Angeles, that was the one production company that sent me a rejection letter that actually was signed by a real person and had my name fully printed out. So bravo for the effort there, Jersey Films. The producers first approached Callie Corey, who had written Thelma and Louise, and Paul Attanasio, who wrote Donny Brasco, to write the screenplay, but both ultimately passed on the project. The job eventually went to Susanna Grant, whose earlier works include the Disney film Pocahontas, and its sequel, Pocahontas II, Journey to a New World. While developing the script, Grant met with Aaron Brockovich in person and spent about a year observing her daily life. She also reviewed trial transcripts, waterboard records from Hinckley, and Brockovich's own investigation notes, so the story in the film would stay closely tied to the documented events. We'll be the judge of that. Grant and the producers decided early on that they didn't want the movie to be just another courtroom drama focused entirely on corporate wrongdoing. So instead built the story around the relationship between Brockovich and her boss, Ed Masri. Grant later said that, beyond the legal case, the story is primarily about Brockovich's own personal struggles, determination, and developing trust between her and Masri, which Grant called the emotional center of the film. After several directors passed on the project, Jersey Films approached Steven Soderbergh, who had previously collaborated with the company on the 1998 George Clooney film Out of Sight.

Ashley 12:23

I wonder if she recommended him because of the relationship with George Clooney, because Julia Roberts and George Clooney are BFFs.

Remi 12:31

We will get to that, and I'm gonna remind you he directed all of the Oceans films, which they are both in together as well. Soderberg was drawn to the project in part because of the character at its center. He has stated that stories about human-sized heroes appeal to him, and Brockovich's partnership with Masri, along with the personal stakes involved in the case, were what particularly made the project stand out to him. It also gave him the opportunity to direct a film built almost entirely around a single female protagonist who appears in nearly every scene. He always likes to challenge himself. That's one of the things that I admire about Soderberg as a director. He's constantly trying new things that bring him out of his comfort zone, and this film is one of them. From early on in development, producer Carla Santos Schamberg felt that Julia Roberts would be the perfect actress to play Brokovich, though it was initially assumed that landing someone of Roberts' stature would be a long shot. The script eventually made its way to Roberts through her agent, and she responded enthusiastically to both the story and the opportunity to work with Sodeberg, so this is actually the first collaboration the two had. Roberts ultimately signed on to the film for a salary of$20 million, making her the first actress at the time to receive that amount for a single role. Brockovich herself said that she never met Roberts until the day she came to set to film her cameo.

Ashley 14:11

And fun fact, I saw this in her book, Erin Brockovich's book, and multiple other sources and interviews. There's a fun little caveat of I think it was her and Masory that were talking about who should play her after she sold her film rights. And I think it was Masory who said, anyone but Julia Roberts.

Remi 14:32

Well, that makes me wonder who he would have chosen if he didn't think Julia Roberts would be right for this role. I personally think that Connie Britton would have made a perfect Erin Brockovich.

Ashley 14:42

I don't think she was around back then. I'm sure she was acting, but not to the point where people recognize her name. I think it's really Friday Night Lights that put her on the map. Shout out to that show. Love it.

Remi 14:56

Touche, this film is probably a little bit before Connie Britton became more recognized. But because of this approach of not meeting or speaking with the real Brockovich until that one day on set, Roberts' performance focuses less on mimicking Brokovic and more on capturing the personality and determination of the character within the screenplay.

SPEAKER_03 15:20

Soderberg was really my liaison to um the real Aaron Brokovic. And he interviewed her and he would send me transcriptions and tapes and all these things to review. And I I couldn't understand at first because originally I said, you know, well, when can I go meet her and where is she? And and he said, Well, you know, just hold off on that. And he kept putting me off, and I think he just all that energy in one room probably would have been too much for anybody to bear. But he was really great in feeding me information and really giving me a strong sense of her, where I felt really liberated to because you can't be someone. I can't be Aaron Brockovich. I can't look exactly like this woman. Well, I can interpret her as closely and as accurately as I can. Because I don't want to do an imitation of somebody. That's not I don't do imitations. I'm not good at that. I and I felt like there was a method to Stevens keeping us apart for so long, which he did. And I think it was ultimately really smart. And when I kind of saw what he was doing, I realized how clever it really was. And I think that it really freed me to really go the distance with the information that I had.

Ashley 16:31

That is so weird. Why do you think he clearly didn't want them to meet?

Remi 16:36

The only thing that I can guess is that Soderberg wanted Roberts to create her own interpretation of the character without any influence from the real person, which I do find very odd, but I guess it gives the actor a bit more creative freedom with the character. Albert Finney originally turned down the role of Ed Masrie because he was reluctant to commit to a long shoot and was selective about projects late in his career. Producers, including Danny DeVito from Jersey Films, convinced him to reconsider by arranging a shorter, more concentrated shooting schedule so Finney could complete his scenes in a relatively limited time. You might remember Albert Finney from Big Fish, he played the father in that film, the older version of Ewan McGregor. The character of George was inspired by Brokovich's real-life boyfriend at the time, a Mexican-American biker named Jorge. Aaron Eckard ended up landing the role after Stephen Soderberg saw him in an indie film called In the Company of Men. Soderberg thought he had the right energy for George, and encouraged him to keep the performance grounded instead of playing the biker stereotype too broadly. I do wonder if they changed the name to George once Eckard got the role. Production took place in several California locations, including Ventura, Barstow, Hinckley, Oxnard, and parts of Los Angeles, with several residents of Hinckley who were involved in the real case, appearing in the film as extras or in other small roles.

Ashley 18:18

That's cool that they actually had some shoots on location.

Remi 18:21

Agreed. Now are you ready to hear the story of how a simple car accident led to Aaron Brokovich uncovering a whole hell of a lot of hexachromium and one of the biggest environmental lawsuits in American history?

Ashley 18:37

Well, I'm at least ready for Hollywood's version.

Remi 19:03

Even though she doesn't actually have a nursing degree. Then, moments after pulling out of the parking space, she is suddenly t-boned by another car running a red light. The film then jumps ahead to the law office of attorney Ed Masrie, played by Albert Finney, where we see Erin now wearing a neck brace speaking with Ed about the accident. From there, her story moves into the courtroom, where Erin is testifying about what happened. She explains that after the crash, doctors had to take bone from her hip and put it into her neck as part of the surgery. And without health insurance, the entire ordeal has left her with more than$17,000 in medical bills. During her testimony, we also learn more about Erin's personal situation, as she explains that she's been divorced twice and is currently a single mother raising three children under 10, including a nine-month-old baby. When the defense attorney begins cross-examining Erin, he tries to frame her as an unemployed hussy looking to squeeze some easy cash out of a respected doctor with a frivolous lawsuit. Erin does not take too kindly to those type of insinuations, so ends up firing back at the attorney with a string of profanity right in the middle of court, which of course only makes things far worse for her. Outside the courthouse, Erin gives Ed a piece of her mind before heading back home with just$74 left in her bank account. Feeling too overwhelmed to even cook dinner that night, Erin takes her kids out to a local diner to get some supper, though Erin herself abstains for the sake of her children.

Ashley 21:10

It always makes me sad in movies or stories. This happened in the Florida Project as well, when a mom takes her kids out to dinner and they just want it to be a special treat for their kids, but they don't have enough money to feed themselves as well.

Remi 21:24

I do really like this scene, and sidebar here, the real Erin Brockovich plays a waitress named Julia in this scene, with the real Ed Masrie appearing as a patron sitting directly behind Julie Roberts.

Ashley 21:39

I knew about Erin Brokovich playing the waitress. I did not know about Ed Masrie also being in the movie. That is so fun.

Remi 21:46

Brokkovic is definitely more heavily featured. She gets a close up and everything, and Masri is more in the background. You really have to look for him. The next morning, Erin is sitting at the kitchen table going through the want ads in the local newspaper, calling every job listing she can find Sir. For work. One by one, she dials the numbers, and one by one she gets turned down, with most employers claiming that she just doesn't have the experience that they're looking for. After several days of trying to get in touch with her attorney Ed Masri and getting nowhere, Aaron loses patience, and instead of waiting around for him to call her back, she marches straight into his office and confronts him in front of the entire staff demanding a job.

SPEAKER_15 22:37

Aaron, how's it going?

SPEAKER_03 22:40

You never called me back. I left messages.

SPEAKER_15 22:43

You did? Well, I didn't know that. Uh Donald seems to think that you said.

SPEAKER_03 22:48

There's two things that aggravate me, Mr. Masrie. Being ignored and being lied to.

SPEAKER_15 22:53

I never lied.

SPEAKER_03 22:54

You told me things would be fine. They're not. I trusted you.

SPEAKER_15 22:57

I'm sorry about that.

SPEAKER_03 22:58

I don't need pity. I need a paycheck. And I've looked. But when you spend the past six years raising babies, it's real hard to convince someone to give you a job that pays worth a damn. Are you getting every word of this down, honey, or am I talking too fast for you?

SPEAKER_13 23:11

I'm sorry about that. I really am. We have a full staff right now. Bullshit.

SPEAKER_03 23:16

If you had a full staff, this office would return a client's damn phone call. I'm smart, I'm hardworking, and I'll do anything, and I'm not leaving here without a job.

Ashley 23:26

You can't help but honor her tenacity and determination. I would never have the gall to go into any sort of establishment and speak to a potential employer that way.

Remi 23:38

This is a law office she is going into, and she is causing a scene in front of everybody. This is not how you get a job. Word of advice to any younger listeners out there: don't do this. Normal people will not hire you if you act this way. This is rude.

Ashley 23:59

And spoiler alert, she didn't go into the office and cause a scene like this. She met with the partners of the firm privately.

Remi 24:07

Well, this is not the last time Erin will make a scene in Ed's office, but we'll get to that shortly. Ed is clearly caught off guard, but ultimately takes pity on Erin, giving her a job at the office, along with a hundred dollars out of his own wallet as an advance to help her get through the weekend. Ed is a super nice guy, and he tolerates so much of Eren's bullshit. One evening, after putting the kids to bed, Erin hears the roar of a motorcycle engine and looks outside to see her new neighbor George, played by Aaron Eckhard, out in front with a group of his biker friends revving their engines. After storming outside and telling them to knock off that racket, George apologizes to Erin and asks for her phone number so that he can take her out to dinner sometime and make it up to her. You want my number. I do. I do want your number.

SPEAKER_03 25:06

Oh, I got numbers coming out of my ears. For instance, ten.

SPEAKER_09 25:10

Ten.

SPEAKER_03 25:11

Yeah. That's how many months old my baby girl is.

SPEAKER_09 25:15

You got a little girl?

SPEAKER_03 25:16

Yeah. Yeah, sexy, huh? How about this for number six? That's how old my other daughter is. Eight is the age of my son. Two is how many times I've been married and divorced. Sixteen is the number of dollars I have in my bank account. 850-3943. That's my phone number. And with all the numbers I gave you, I'm guessing zero is the number of times you're gonna call it.

Ashley 25:37

Why would he need to ask for her phone number when they're next door neighbors? He could just stroll on over and ask her out.

Remi 25:44

That is exactly what I was thinking. When I was writing the description of this scene, it makes sense for him to ask her out to dinner, but he wouldn't need her phone number. She literally lives 10 feet away from him. But I do want to include a brief snippet of an SNL skit that parodies this very scene, starring Chloe Feynman as Aaron Brockovich and Ryan Gosling as George. This is George's response to Aaron spouting off all of those numbers.

SPEAKER_11 26:17

So good night. Maybe you can write me a letter sometime.

SPEAKER_04 26:21

Letter? Here's a letter for you. Why? The thing I left my wife and my dad in the left. You, the answer my mama gave me. K, but my dad takes back from the full of my mother. J what I'm smoked to forget my mum. And O, the thing I've never given a woman. So yeah, maybe next time, don't judge a book box cover.

Ashley 27:00

God, I just love Ryan Gosling. This has to be one example of why he is turning out to be one of the most recurrent hosts of SNL.

Remi 27:09

I love every time Ryan Gosling hosts SNL, which is why I just had to include this clip. I couldn't believe that this skit literally came out within the past two years. But Gosling never can keep it together when he's doing any of his skits on SNL. And I just find it hilarious watching him try and not laugh when he is just losing his shit. Back at the office, Erin is handed a big box of documents and told to open a file on what Ed describes as a pro bono real estate matter, which doesn't seem particularly exciting, but hey, at least it's work, right? When Aaron gets home later that day, she's surprised to find George in the backyard having a cookout with her kids, who have already taken quite the shine to him.

Ashley 27:59

Okay, that is completely unacceptable. She just comes home from her work and her young children are just in the backyard with some random biker neighbor.

Remi 28:08

He's cooking them hot dogs. They're having a great time. It's a beautiful day outside. Nothing nefarious is occurring, but I do have to agree with you. It is kind of weird that this guy just came over and started taking care of her children without permission. But George ends up staying late and helps put the kids to bed even. While talking with Erin later, he offers to watch the kids in the afternoons while Aaron is at work, since he knows she's been struggling to find reliable childcare. Aaron is hesitant at first, but does eventually agree. Later that night, Erin starts going through the documents she brought home from the office, and inside the file she finds letters from Pacific Gas and Electric Company, offering to buy property from a couple named Donna and Peter Jensen for$66,500. Mixed in with the real estate paperwork, Erin also uncovers medical records, including an immunotoxicology report for Donna Jensen, that notes several abnormalities in her blood work, amongst other irregularities. The next day, Erin asks Ed if she can dig a little deeper into the case, and he gives her permission to look into the matter further. Erin then drives out to the small desert town of Hinckley to speak with Donna Jensen in person. Donna explains that PGE has offered to buy their home, but the family has no interest in moving. She and her husband Peter have both been dealing with serious health problems, which is why their medical files ended up in the case documents. But what confuses Aaron is why those medical records would have anything to do with a real estate deal. She soon learns that PGE has been paying for the family's medical bills, as well as their doctor visits. And when Erin asks why a utility company would be doing something like that, Donna casually responds, Because of the chromium.

Ashley 30:16

Just a casual response.

Remi 30:18

It is very matter-of-fact the way she says it, yes. Now I'm no scientist, and neither is Erin. So the next stop in her investigation is the University of California, Los Angeles, where she speaks with a professor named Dr. Frankel, who explains that there are several forms of chromium, but hexavalent chromium, also known as chromium 6, is especially dangerous.

Ashley 30:45

It causes cancer.

Remi 30:47

Not only that, but repeated exposure to high levels of chromium-6 can lead to a wide range of serious health problems, including respiratory illness, organ damage, reproductive issues, and like you mentioned, cancer. When Erin asks what a substance like that would possibly be used for, she learns that it is most commonly used as a rust inhibitor at utility plants, where water is run through engines that compress natural gas, and chromium compounds are sometimes added to the water to help prevent corrosion. Next stop is the regional water board to pull some water records, which Aaron manages to gain access to by flashing just enough cleavage to charm a smitten employee at the front desk, who looks like he may have once been a member of the band Hubastank. You a big Hubastank fan, Ashley?

Ashley 31:50

God, I love that song.

Chromium-6 Evidence And Class Action Grows

Remi 31:52

Sidebar, the real Erin Brokovich later said that while her appearance may have helped open a few doors, she never consciously used her body to manipulate anyone the way the movie suggests. Erin spends several hours digging through file after file at the waterboard offices until she finally comes across a cleanup and abatement order issued by the California Regional Water Quality Control Board, which states that groundwater in the area had been contaminated with chromium-6, and that the pollution plume extended about a mile north from the original source. After making copies of the paperwork, Erin heads back to the office but is flabbergasted to find that her desk has been cleared and all of her belongings are nowhere to be seen. It turns out her boss wasn't thrilled that she disappeared for several days on her little investigation trip, without even telling anyone.

Ashley 32:51

Yeah, she is hired as a file clerk. She is essentially an assistant. She does need to tell her boss what she's doing or where she's going.

Remi 33:02

I am gonna say it now and say it again. I do not think Erin Brockovich is a very good employee. She is good at what she does, but I don't think she is a good employee.

Ashley 33:11

In real life, before she did any of these excursions, she got permission from her employer to do so.

Remi 33:19

As anyone in this situation should. But not in the movie. So Erin storms straight into Ed's office, demanding an explanation. Ed tells her that between the unexplained absences and the general chaos she tends to bring along with her, Ed just doesn't think that things are working out, but does offer to help her find another job somewhere else. Erin flat out refuses Ed's offer and makes it crystal clear what she thinks about the situation before heading out the front door in a total tizzy.

Ashley 33:54

So she just refused to be fired.

Remi 33:57

Oh no, she is fired here. But she is unhappy about it and making sure that everybody in the office knows. Still fuming when she arrives back home, Erin ends up venting the majority of her anger onto George, who just happens to be there fixing her sink at the time. George tries calming her down, and before long, the tension between the two steadily blossoms into a heartfelt moment before eventually culminating in a romantic evening. I do not see how this thing would happen like this in real life. There is literally no romantic moment going on in the scene, but somehow they end up sleeping together.

Ashley 34:38

He's there and she's upset.

Remi 34:41

And he is very nice and understanding and listens to her and is very sympathetic towards her. So I think that's just something that Erin doesn't experience very often, given her hostile mentality.

Ashley 34:56

And he seems to actually really like and care for her kids, which would be a huge plus.

Remi 35:02

Oh, he loves those kids, and the kids love him back. Afterwards, Erin mentions that she used to compete in beauty pageants and still has her tiara from when she was crowned Miss Wichita. As time rolls on, Erin is forced to resume her routine of barely scraping by while desperately searching for gainful employment. Out of the blue one day, Ed shows up at her door to relay a message he received from Dr. Frankel over at UCLA. According to the doctor, the legal limit for hexavalent chromium in drinking water is.05 parts per million, and that the.58 level Aaron had asked about would indeed be high enough to potentially be connected to the Jensen family's cancer. Understandably curious, Ed asks Aaron what exactly all this is about. But Aaron refuses to explain anything until he hires her back, telling him that she's got bills to pay and won't be giving up any information free of charge.

Ashley 36:10

This would not fly. Anything she had learned or any sort of documents she had written or received would be company of the firm.

Remi 36:20

Well, Ed reluctantly agrees to Erin's demands, and once he officially hires her back, Erin invites him inside and starts laying out everything she's discovered so far.

SPEAKER_03 36:33

So Donna just put in these new cabinets. Real nice, stained the wooden all, when she gets a call from somebody at PGE saying there's a freeway going to be built, and they want to buy her house to put in an off-ramp to the plant. Meanwhile, the husband's sick with Hodgkins, she's in and out of the hospital with tumors, believing one thing has nothing to do with the other.

SPEAKER_14 36:52

Because PGE told her about the chromium.

SPEAKER_03 36:54

Well, get this, they had a seminar. They invited about 200 residents from the area, had it at the plant in this warehouse, telling them all about chromium 3 and how good it is for you. When all the time they're using chromium six.

SPEAKER_14 37:08

That uh document you found at the waterboard, the one that uh says about the bad chromium. You didn't happen to make a copy.

SPEAKER_03 37:19

Of course I did.

SPEAKER_14 37:21

Well, could I have a look at it?

SPEAKER_03 37:23

I want a race. And benefits.

Ashley 37:29

Man, she really was born to be a lawyer. She drives a tough negotiation.

Remi 37:34

This would not fly. You were literally just telling me that any of those documents are the legal property of the firm. So she would not be able to pull some bullshit like this.

Ashley 37:48

She still can drive a tough bargain.

Remi 37:51

Oh yeah, because after agreeing to Eren's terms, Ed looks over the photocopied cleanup order, then asks Aaron if she can go back to the waterboard to see if she can get her hands on any more records. So Aaron heads back to the regional waterboard and somehow manages to gain access to the files again, despite having her three children in tow. She then spends the next few hours photocopying several stacks of documents before returning to the office and delivering the materials to Ed, who has them faxed over to PGE's claims department. Not long after, Erin pays another visit to Donna Jensen to go over her findings.

SPEAKER_17 38:36

And you say that this stuff, this hexavalent chromium. Well, it's poisonous. Yeah. Well, Aaron. It's it's just gotta be different than than what's in our water, because ours is okay. The guys from from PG ⁇ E told me they sat right in the kitchen and and and told me that it was it was fine.

SPEAKER_03 38:59

I know, I know, but the toxicologist that I've been talking to, he gave me a list of problems that can come from hexavalent chromium exposure. Everything you all have is on that list.

SPEAKER_17 39:12

No, that's that's not what that's not what our doctor said. He said that well, that one's got absolutely nothing to do with the other.

SPEAKER_03 39:22

But PG ⁇ E paid for that, doctor.

Ashley 39:26

I think this scene really encapsulates how Aaron Brockovich was able to do what she did without legal training. She was really the person that was meeting with all of these people and breaking down the legal terms into words they could actually understand. And you can tell in this scene she actually feels for Donna Jensen.

Remi 39:49

She is one of them. She's just a regular person. She doesn't have a law degree or anything like that, but she is able to explain these things to the people of Hinckley in terminology that they can understand. And she does legitimately care about all of these people. Days later, Aaron and Ed meet with a representative sent from PG ⁇ E's legal department to discuss the situation. The company offers the Jensens$250,000 to buy their home, but zero compensation for the family's medical issues, asserting that the two matters are unrelated and refusing to pay for any medical expenses. With the situation still unresolved, Erin starts spending long nights at the office digging through paperwork and researching the case. One evening, she's interrupted by a couple named Tom and Mandy Robinson, who have driven in from Hinckley specifically to talk with her. The Robinsons explain that they used to live across the street from the Jensens and sold their home to PG ⁇ E about a year earlier, after Mandy had suffered five miscarriages while they were living there. After recently hearing what the Jensens had learned about the chromium-6 contamination, the Robinsons now believe that it may also be connected to what had happened to them. Afterwards, Aaron and Ed organize a meeting with several other families in Hinckley who may also have been affected by the chromium contamination. Ed explains that he can represent them, but his firm would take 40% of any settlement or award, which doesn't go over very well with the Hinckley townsfolk. So Aaron steps in to remind everyone that if Ed loses the case, he will have put in all of the work and won't get paid either.

Ashley 41:48

And this is very, very, very common with civil lawsuits, especially big class action lawsuits like this. The attorney or the firm takes nothing to represent the plaintiffs. They're called plaintiffs in these cases instead of defendants. And if they lose, they get nothing. Which in this case, Ed and the subsequent law firms that helped ended up paying in advance over$10 million to keep this case going. So if they would have lost, they would have walked away with nothing.

Remi 42:20

Over the next several weeks, Aaron travels around Hinckley speaking with dozens of residents, many of whom describe serious health problems that began while they were living near the PGE facility. Despite the case's progress, Ed is still hesitant to take on a massive class action lawsuit against a billion-dollar company like PG ⁇ E, and feels far more comfortable keeping the case limited to the original real estate dispute. Eventually, Aaron does wear him down, and Ed agrees to move forward, but only if she keeps gathering the evidence needed to support the claims. Aaron agrees, under the condition that she gets a raise for taking on the additional workload.

Ashley 43:06

I mean, and that's fair. At this point, she is doing much more work than just a law clerk.

Remi 43:11

With the amount of plaintiffs that they have by the end of this, she deserves that raise. After securing her increase in income, Erin heads back out to Hinckley to collect water samples from around the area as part of the investigation. Nine months later, Erin and Ed are still building their case, and by this point they've signed up 411 plaintiffs. Along the way, Aaron has also learned more about how the contamination happened. PGE had been using hexavalent chromium as an anti corrosion chemical in the cooling towers at their compressor station, and the wastewater from the system was dumped into nearby ponds, which should have been lined to keep the chemicals from seeping into the ground. Since PGE apparently decided To skip this step. Over time, the chromium leaked into the groundwater, spreading through the entire area around Hinckley.

Ashley 44:14

In this scene, is it where she sees the dead frogs?

Remi 44:18

Yes, that is exactly the scene.

Ashley 44:20

I have not seen this movie in a very long time, but there are certain scenes that I remember like it was yesterday, and that was one of them. I will point out the other one when it comes up.

Arbitration Strategy And The Big Win

Remi 44:33

Well, the biggest question still hanging over the case is whether PGE's corporate leadership knew what was happening down in Hinckley and still chose to ignore it, which would then open the door for punitive damages. Eventually, the lawsuit filed by the residents of Hinckley against PGE makes its way to court at the San Bernardino County Barstow Law and Justice Center. PGE responds by filing dozens of motions attempting to have the case dismissed, but the judge denies all of them, allowing the lawsuit to finally move forward to trial.

SPEAKER_07 45:12

In the matter of the plaintiffs of Hinckley, California versus Pacific Gas and Electric, it is the order of this court that each of the 84 motions to strike and demurs are denied, and the causes of action against Pacific Gas and Electric are upheld. On a more personal note, as a resident here in Barstow, which is not far from Hinckley, I'm disturbed by reference to evidence that suggests that not only was hexavalent chromium used, but that your clients actually sent these residents pamphlets telling them that it was good for them. Tell your clients they're going to trial.

Remi 45:53

Sidebar, the judge who delivers the key ruling in this scene was played by the actual judge, Leroy A. Simmons.

Ashley 46:02

It's fun little tidbits like this that are just my favorite part of this podcast. That is amazing.

Remi 46:09

Not long after that, several high-powered attorneys representing PG ⁇ E arrange a meeting with Ed and Aaron at the company's offices to address the growing case and the hundreds of plaintiffs now involved. The meeting also gives Aaron the chance to speak directly to the corporate lawyers who have been pushing back on the claims, and she does not hold back when it comes to telling them exactly what she thinks about how the company has handled the situation.

SPEAKER_03 46:42

Oh, see, now that pisses me off. First of all, since the demur, we have more than 400 plaintiffs in, let's be honest, we all know there are more out there. They may not be the most sophisticated people, but they do know how to divide, and$20 million isn't shit when you split it between them. Second of all, these people don't dream about being rich. They dream about being able to watch their kids swim in a pool without worrying that they'll have to have a hysterectomy at the age of 20, like Rosa Diaz, a client of ours, or have their spine deteriorate, like Stan Bloom, another client of ours. So before you come back here with another lame ass offer, I want you to think real hard about what your spine is worth, Mr. Walker. Or what you might expect someone to pay you for your uterus, Miss Sanchez. Then you take out your calculator and you multiply that number by a hundred. Anything less than that is a waste of our time. By the way, we had that water brought in special for you folks. Came from Well and Hinckley.

Ashley 47:41

And this is the scene I was talking about. This is the most memorable scene from the movie. After she tells this woman that the water is from Hinckley, she stares at the water and just puts it down slowly. And Remy, I'm gonna ask you now, you don't think Julia Roberts did a good job in this movie? I think she's slaying.

Remi 48:00

This just isn't the way that you go about this sort of thing. The meeting literally ends immediately after this.

Ashley 48:08

I would argue that by saying, you do not know how lawyers interact with people. When I testified today, the lawyer that was cross-examining me was just not very nice. And some would say she was rude, like how you would say Aaron Brockovich was rude. It's a different situation when you're in court against someone who is viewed in your eyes as the enemy. People do talk to each other this way when it comes to legal matters, especially legal matters that are worth millions upon millions upon millions upon millions of dollars.

Remi 48:44

And my retort to that is that the actual attorney in the room, Ed, was trying to get her to stop. Aaron is not an attorney in this situation. So I think she should be given a little less leeway when she is in a room filled with lawyers.

Ashley 49:05

That's your opinion about Aaron Brockovich, not Julia Roberts' performance, which is what I asked you about.

Remi 49:13

My problem with her performance is that I should like her and I don't. And I blame that on the way Julia Roberts does this character, in all honesty. This is a single mother who is going up against a giant evil corporation and standing on the side of good and defending the people. Yet I can't stand her in every single scene. I should really care about this woman. And I believe that there are actors who could portray this type of character in a way that would still have me empathize with them.

Ashley 49:51

And you don't think that has anything to do with the fact that you just really don't like Julia Roberts? Like, say if Ryan Reynolds was playing Ed Massery, would you like him?

Remi 50:01

Well, that would be a terrible miscast, first of all, but you've been chipping away at this for a while. And I will admit it, Julia Roberts is the female equivalent of Ryan Reynolds in my mind. I don't have a personal vendetta against Miss Roberts like I do with Mr. Reynolds, but I see them as just very equal. I always see her as Julia Roberts. In all of these scenes, I see her as Julia Roberts, I do not see her as Aaron Brockovich.

Ashley 50:30

And with that, our discussion of how much Remy dislikes Julia Roberts has officially closed.

Remi 50:37

For now. Anyway, that night Aaron comes home and finds George packing up all his belongings. He tells Aaron that she's never around anymore and he can't keep living like this. He then asks her to choose between the case or their relationship. Aaron pauses for a moment to consider her options, but ultimately chooses the case over her love life.

Ashley 51:02

Yeah, sorry, George.

Remi 51:04

I do agree with you here. A man should never ask a woman to give up their career so they can be home more. I think that's disrespectful of someone to ask. Later on, Erin stops by the office to pick up some mail, only to learn that Ed has brought in another attorney named Kurt Potter to handle the Hinckley case without her knowledge. Erin understandably doesn't take this news particularly well, and immediately assumes that she's being pushed aside, so proceeds to vent all of her grievances in front of the entire office. Again. Days after the altercation, Erin receives a surprise letter in the mail from Ed, containing a$5,000 check along with the keys to a new car. Also included is a handwritten note from Ed advising Aaron to get a nanny. So Ed is like the kindest, most forgiving dude in the world, apparently. Soon after, PG ⁇ E proposes resolving the dispute through binding arbitration rather than taking the case to a full trial. Under arbitration, the case would be heard by a judge instead of a jury, and the decision would be final with no opportunity to appeal. By this point, the lawsuit includes 634 plaintiffs, so the plan is to divide them into smaller groups of about 20 to 30 people, starting with the most serious cases, so that the judge can determine damages for each group rather than all at once or individually.

Ashley 52:47

Okay, so sidebar here. In big class action lawsuits like this, when there is 600 different plaintiffs, this is what happens. The cases are split up into groups of about, like you said, 20 or 30, because there's no way you can see 634 people one by one by one. So you have trials that last a couple days to a week, and there's a handful, couple handfuls of plaintiffs that are included because all of their claims are the same.

Remi 53:20

And this is something I had no knowledge of and found pretty interesting. I had no idea how a lawsuit like this with so many plaintiffs would proceed.

Ashley 53:31

There's actually a big litigation going on in Oregon right now. Remy, do you remember the fires from several years ago during COVID?

Remi 53:40

I do indeed.

Ashley 53:41

Well, those were allegedly started by insufficient care from a power company. So that power company has thousands of plaintiffs that are now suing them for the damages related to the loss of their homes and also psychological damages. And all of these cases, they're being resolved slowly, and they each have several handful of plaintiffs that are involved with each and every single trial. It's been going on for two, three years now.

Remi 54:11

Oh yeah, even doing it this way would take an extremely long time. But the alternative would be a full trial, something PG ⁇ E could potentially drag out for years with appeal after appeal. Well, Erin isn't thrilled about the idea of arbitration, since from her perspective, she spent the past several months building the case and earning the trust of the people in Hinckley, only for a group of new attorneys to step in and take the reins.

SPEAKER_03 54:46

Don't talk to me like I'm an idiot, okay? I may not have a law degree, but I've spent 18 months on this case, and I know more about these plaintiffs than you ever will.

SPEAKER_02 54:55

Aaron, you don't even have phone numbers for some of them. Whose number do you need? Everyone's. We need to be able to contact the plaintiffs. I said, whose number do you need?

SPEAKER_03 55:06

Annabelle Daniels. Annabelle Daniels, 714-454-9346. Ten years old, 11 in May, lived on the plume since birth. Wanted to be a synchronized swimmer, so she spent every minute she could in the PGE pool. She had a tumor in her brainstem detected last November, and operation on Thanksgiving shrunk it with radiation after that. Her parents are Ted and Rita. Ted's got Crohn's disease. Rita has chronic headaches and nausea and underwent a hysterectomy last fall. Ted grew up in Hinckley. His brother Robbie and his wife May and their five children, Robbie Jr., Martha, Ed, Rose, and Peter, also lived on the plume. Their number is 454-9554. You want their diseases?

Ashley 55:46

So this is something I partially left out. Erin Brockovich does have dyslexia, but she also describes herself as basically having a photographic memory. So she could just look at some things and just have it memorized after a very brief period of time. So I think that's what Steven Soderberg is alluding to here.

Remi 56:06

Well, my reaction to Erin doing this in this scene would simply be, well, why didn't you write the phone number in the file then? You can't just have all this shit memorized. They are going to court. You need all of this information documented. It's well that she has a great memory, but this needs to be written down on paper somewhere. But the people of Hinckley are likewise not really psyched about a group of outside lawyers suddenly showing up to ask a bunch of questions that they had already discussed with Aaron months prior. Another lingering issue for Ed's new partners is that they still need proof that PGE's corporate leadership knew that the water in Hinckley was contaminated before 1987, yet still chose to ignore it. Complicating matters further is the fact that in order for the arbitration to even move forward, 90% of the plaintiffs have to agree to it, and since the majority of Hinckley residents are skeptical of the new lawyers Ed has brought in, many of them are hesitant to sign. To quell the town's apprehension, Ed organizes a meeting at the Hinckley Community Center to explain the arbitration. To more than 600 plaintiffs involved in the case. Ed lays out exactly how the process would work and why it would be faster than a traditional trial, but by the end of the meeting, they're still well short of the 90% needed to proceed. So, Aaron and Ed head out into the community and start going door to door, trying to convince the remaining holdouts to join the arbitration. During this final push to collect signatures, Aaron meets a man named Charles Embry, who says he used to work for PG ⁇ E and claims he was ordered to destroy documents related to test wells at the Hinckley site, but kept copies of some of those records. The following day, Aaron and Ed are both vindicated as they present this new information to the other attorneys. Ed? Aaron, what's this?

SPEAKER_03 58:23

May I?

SPEAKER_00 58:23

Yep. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 58:25

Well, you know what, Mr. Potter, we completely forgot your birthday this year, and seeing as how you've been so good to me, it's a terrible oversight. So what Ed and I have been doing the last few days is putting together a present for you. 634. They're all signed. Every single one. Now don't go getting jealous, Teresa. We have something for you too. Internal PGE documents all about contamination. The one that I like best says, and well, I'm paraphrasing here, but it says, yes, the water's poisonous, but it would be better for all involved if this matter was not discussed with the neighbors. It's to the Hingley Station from PGE headquarters. Stamp received March 1966.

SPEAKER_04 59:09

How did you do this?

SPEAKER_03 59:11

Well, um, seeing as how I have no brands or legal expertise, and Ed here was losing all faith in the system, am I right?

SPEAKER_15 59:16

Oh, yeah, completely. No faith, no faith.

SPEAKER_03 59:18

I just went up there and performed sexual favors. Six hundred and thirty-four blowjobs in five days.

Ashley 59:24

I have a feeling this is something Aaron Brockovich would say did not happen.

Remi 59:31

In the end, the arbitration panel rules that PGE must pay a total of$333 million in damages to the plaintiffs, with five million of that amount specifically going to the Jensen family. After the case is finally resolved, Erin gets a surprise of her own when Ed hands her a bonus check for$2 million in recognition of all the hard work she personally put into the case. Just before the closing credits, we learn that the settlement awarded to the plaintiffs in the case of Hinckley vs. PGE was the largest in a direct action lawsuit in United States history. PGE claims they no longer use hexavalent chromium in any of their compressor plants, and that all of their ponds are lined to prevent groundwater contamination. Aaron and Ed have seven other cases pending, including one against PGE regarding a plant in Kettleman Hills, California. And that was Steven Soderbergh's Aaron Brockovich. Any initial thoughts, Ashley?

Ashley 1:00:45

So I must say, after hearing you whisper under your breath all week about how much you hate Julia Roberts and how much you did not enjoy this movie, I was questioning myself and if this was actually a good movie. And from the clips you showed me, I stand by it. I think Julia Roberts is great in this. Spoiler alert, she wins the Oscar. I think she deserved to win the Oscar. I think it was a great role. My one qualm is the fact that Steven Soderberg did not let her really get to know the real Aaron Brockovich. I think he should have done that. I think if that would have happened, you would have gotten a little bit more of a toned down performance.

Remi 1:01:24

And I will agree with you on that. I do think it was a very interesting decision for Soderbergh to not have Julia Roberts meet the real Aaron Brockovich. I'm sure he had his reasons, but I really would have liked to see what this performance could have been if she was actually trying to portray the real Aaron Brockovich and not just make up a character. I think if I saw that, that would be a better display of her acting ability than her just willy-nilly making up the character of Aaron Brockovich. But that was not her choice. The director wanted her to do that, so I cannot fault her for that.

Ashley 1:02:09

And as you'll see in my part, her outfit and cleavage and just all around flair are footnotes in the story, but it's not what made her her. And I think when Julia Roberts was reading the script, that's what stuck out to her, and so that's what she latched on to.

Remi 1:02:28

The clothes?

Ashley 1:02:29

That and her just personality. I do think that Aaron Brockovich comes off as a lot more abrasive and aggressive in the movie than she actually did in real life. Because as you pointed out, people can't get away with doing and saying some of the shit that Julia Roberts does in the movie.

Releases Awards And Film Accuracy Claims

Remi 1:02:48

Which is why I would have liked to see a more grounded performance based on a real person rather than this made-up character that Julia Roberts came up with. But let's get into the release of the film, shall we? Director Steven Soderbergh's first cut of Aaron Brockovich reportedly ran for more than three hours, before it was eventually trimmed down for the theatrical release. Thank God. One of the scenes that ended up on the cutting room floor showed Aaron becoming sick from exposure to the toxins in Hinckley, something that also happened to the real Aaron Brockovich. Soderberg later explained that he removed the scene because he didn't want audiences thinking that the movie was headed towards a storyline where the main character becomes terminally ill. Because as we all know, if you cough in a movie, you're going to die.

Ashley 1:03:47

And three hours would have been unbearable for this type of movie. We do not need this movie to be three hours.

Remi 1:03:55

Totally agree. Though they do have Erin being sick in the film, but it comes across as more of she has like a cold or something like that. The film tested well with audiences, although executives at Universal Pictures were concerned that the title character's frequent profanity may turn off some viewers. Most of the test audiences responded positively, however. Although one reviewer reportedly did have a complaint, which Roberts herself highlighted in the following interview.

Ashley 1:05:29

Liar Liar, a movie that is literally in every single episode of this podcast. Fast forward to our objection of the week.

Remi 1:05:37

On Rotten Tomatoes, the film currently holds an approval rating of 87% based on 192 reviews, with a critical consensus that reads Taking full advantage of Julia Roberts' considerable talent and appeal, Aaron Brockovich overcomes a few character and plot issues to deliver a smart, thoughtful, and funny legal drama. Everybody just loves Julia. Roberts went on to win the Academy Award for Best Actress for her performance in Aaron Brokovich, and also picked up a number of other major awards for the role as well, including the BAFTA, the Golden Globe, the Screen Actors Guild Award, the Critic's Choice Award, and an award from the National Board of Review.

Ashley 1:06:27

So she swept.

Remi 1:06:29

She literally won everything for this role. It was basically unanimous that she was phenomenal in this film, so I am like the outlier here.

Ashley 1:06:39

It's exactly what's happening this award season with Jesse Buckley and Hamnet.

Remi 1:06:45

During Julia Roberts' acceptance speech, she famously forgot to thank the real Aaron Brockovich, later joking that her win didn't exactly bring out the Albert Einstein moment during her speech that she had hoped for. That same year, Soderbergh pulled off something incredibly rare that we discussed earlier, when he received two Academy Award nominations for Best Director in the same year, for Aaron Brokovich and Traffic, eventually winning the Oscar for Traffic. Only a handful of directors have ever been nominated twice in the same category in the same year, with Francis Ford Coppola being the last to do so, back in 1975 for The Conversation and The Godfather Part 2. And as of now, Soderbergh remains the most recent director to accomplish this feat, and possibly the last. Years later, in 2021, members of the Writers Guild of America ranked Susanna Grant's screenplay for Erin Brockovich number 78 on the guild's list of the 101 greatest screenplays of the 21st century so far. Erin Brokovich herself has also said on her website that the film is probably 98% accurate. But that's the movie version of the event. Are you ready to dig into the real story and see what is actually going on in the water down in Hinckley?

Ashley 1:08:16

Let's do it. I hope everyone has their tap filters ready. She grew up in a middle-class home with three older siblings, Tommy, Frankie, and Jody. Her parents had traditional family values and worked hard to provide a stable life for them and their kids. Her dad was an industrial engineer, and her mom was a journalist. Both parents had a fundamental impact on who Erin grew up to become.

SPEAKER_16 1:09:23

And my mom was always my cheerleader because I'm a dyslexic. I always felt defeated. And I'd come home and my mom would teach me about having stick toitiveness. She taught me that just because I was different didn't mean I was inferior.

Remi 1:09:42

This is one of the first interviews I have ever seen of the real Aaron Brockovich. And I must say she has a very unique manner of speaking that would have been interesting to see Julia Roberts tackle. But also, her dad was involved with the water business as well.

Ashley 1:10:04

Isn't that crazy? That was not in anything I've read. It wasn't even brought up until I started looking at interviews with her.

Remi 1:10:12

And it is not mentioned in the movie. Her parents aren't mentioned in the film at all.

Ashley 1:10:16

From an early age, Erin dreamed of becoming a doctor, but her dyslexia got in the way. She wasn't dumb by any means, but her challenges with reading led teachers to label her as difficult or dumb. School felt like an uphill battle until a high school teacher realized she was actually very bright and just not good at test taking. When she was allowed to take exams verbally instead of in writing, she finally began to excel. After graduating from Lawrence High School in 1978, Erin enrolled at Kansas State University. It didn't go well. Instead of focusing on classes, she partied, chased boys, and slept through lectures. When her first report card arrived, her dad had had enough. He was done paying for school. After a lot of pleading, Erin managed to convince him to give her one more chance. She transferred to Wade College in Dallas, Texas, where her brother Tommy was already living and had promised to keep an eye on her. At Wade College, Erin tried to apply herself, but her learning challenges still made school frustrating. She once again found herself drifting towards the social scene and away from the books. She was kicked out of class often, sometimes for her performance, but other times for reasons that seem ridiculous now, like not wearing a bra or pantyhose. Despite these setbacks, Erin pushed through. She took summer classes and completed the two-year program in just 19 months, graduating with an associate degree in applied arts related to fashion merchandising. After finishing school, Erin didn't really have a clear direction. Like a lot of people in their early 20s, she bounced from job to job trying to figure out what she wanted to do. She discovered pretty quickly that she was actually good at sales. She had the personality for it. People responded to her confidence and natural extroversion. In the fall of 1980, she was offered a job at Neiman Marcus's flagship store in Dallas, but the salary was barely enough to live on. Instead, she accepted a higher paying job with Kmart and moved to LA with a friend also hired by the company. After just three months, she resigned and moved in with her brother.

Remi 1:12:42

Was she working just at a Kmart store or was she working at the corporate office?

Ashley 1:12:48

It was a specific store, but she wasn't like a sales associate. She was doing something higher up in the company than that. Erin again found herself drifting from job to job. Her interest in fashion pulled her towards the world of beauty pageants. She entered a few and even won the title of Miss Pacific Coast in 1981. During this time, she met a house painter named Sean Brown. The relationship moved quickly and they married on April 24th, 1982. The next few years were chaotic. Aaron had two kids, Matt and Katie, and the family moved often for Sean's work. In just a few years, they lived in St. Louis, Missouri, Lodi, California, and Reno, Nevada. Sean was gone for long stretches of time, leading Aaron to wonder if he was having an affair. After recovering from postpartum depression, she started having intense anxiety and panic attacks. She considered leaving Sean, but her dad encouraged her to work on the marriage for the sake of the kids, and even offered to buy them a house so they could settle down and plant some roots. Despite her best efforts, the marriage ultimately ended in the spring of 1987. Before filing for divorce, Erin landed a job as an assistant to several stockbrokers at EF Hutton. Her dyslexia sometimes caused her to make small but costly mistakes, but she wasn't fired because her bosses liked her, including one named Steve Brockovich. After about a year and a half, Steve left the company to become vice president at Dean Whitter Reynolds, another stock brokerage firm. Aaron followed and continued to work as his assistant. Their professional relationship soon turned romantic and they married in 1989. The year of my birth. Aaron's first husband, Sean, did not take the news well. Conversations that were supposed to be about their kids turned into verbal attacks. He ignored agreed-upon drop-off and pickup times and refused to pay child support. Luckily, Steve made more than enough money to support the family, but Aaron still wanted to contribute financially, so she took an administrative job at an advertising agent. Nonetheless, the marriage quickly deteriorated. Steve seemed to resent the ongoing drama with Sean and Aaron's growing independence. His frustration often came out in passive aggressive comments, mostly about her appearance. At one point, he even started mooing at her whenever she walked past him. The constant criticism took a serious toll on her self-esteem. Trying to increase her self-confidence, she got breast implants. She also developed anorexia. Her eating disorder became so severe that she was hospitalized for two weeks at a facility in Sparks, Nevada. After just a year together, Aaron and Steve divorced.

Remi 1:16:00

And it would have explained a lot about the character having known some of this background.

Ashley 1:16:08

Aaron and Steven spent a few weeks trying to reconnect, but they realized they just weren't right for each other. But one thing came out of the reconciliation attempt, a pregnancy. Four months before Elizabeth was born in April 1991, Erin was involved in a serious car accident while driving home to visit her parents. Because she was pregnant at the time, doctors avoided performing an MRI or an X-ray. She was sent home but started having severe back pain, dizziness, and difficulty standing. No one realized she had suffered a spinal cord hernia between the C5 and C6 vertebrae, which is closer up to your neck. Needing a break from the pressures of single motherhood, Erin took a trip to LA with a friend. While there, she met a biker named Jorge Hallaby at a bar. The two hit it off immediately. Jorge was fun, charming, and easygoing. They also bonded over the fact that they both had young daughters. LA started to feel like the perfect place for a fresh start. Shortly after returning to Reno, Jorge helped her pack up her life and drove a U-Haul with her down to Southern California. She rented a small, roach-infested, lead paint peeling house in Northridge. It wasn't pretty, but it was available and big enough for a single mother of three.

Remi 1:17:36

The first place I ever lived when I moved out to Los Angeles was Northridge, and I can vouch for all of that.

Ashley 1:17:43

Before leaving Reno, Erin had hired an attorney to help her pursue a lawsuit related to the car accident she'd been in while pregnant, but very little progress had been made. In LA, Jorge introduced her to an attorney named Jim Vidato, who represented him in the past. He took the case and connected her with the doctor who performed the surgery she needed to repair the hernia in her neck, and she did make a full recovery. Everything seemed to be going well for Erin until January 1992, when another ex-husband resurfaced. Stephen Brockovich had remarried and for the first time since Elizabeth was born nine months earlier wanted visitation rights. Fearing this might be the first step towards him trying to gain permanent and sole custody, Aaron decided she needed to fight at all costs. Vitato introduced her to his partner, Ed Massery, who in turn referred her to a child custody lawyer. In the midst of a contiguous legal battle, Aaron received devastating news. Her thirty-eight-year-old brother Tommy unexpectedly died while camping with friends. The cause of death was believed to be anaphylactic shock. It's unclear what triggered it. He was always a sick kid and had pretty severe asthma. He might have eaten something he was allergic to, or possibly just inhaled something in the environment that proved toxic to his system. Nonetheless, the loss was crushing. Erin was always especially close with Tommy. Their older siblings, Frankie and Jody, had already left home by the time she was five, so she and Tommy did everything together. Even Steve was affected by the news. He dropped the lawsuit and began paying child support.

Remi 1:19:36

That's good he stepped up and did that, at least.

Ashley 1:19:39

Erin's car accident lawsuit went to trial in the summer of 1991. As the proceedings unfolded, it became clear that her legal team was unlikely to win. Rather than risk losing everything, they agreed to settle. After medical and legal fees, she walked away with just$5,000.

Remi 1:19:59

So she didn't blow up at anyone in the courtroom?

Real Case Origins And PGE’s Dumping

Ashley 1:20:02

From what I could see, no, but she did blame the disappointing outcome largely on Jim Vidato, who she felt had been pretty unresponsive throughout the process. She had repeatedly complained about how difficult it was to get the man on the phone. During lunch one day, she made a suggestion. If returning phone calls was such a problem, maybe he should hire her to help. Vitaux turned her down, but Erin wasn't someone who took no for an answer. After having a meeting with Vita and Mastery, she started at the firm as a file clerk in September 1991 for a salary of$1,200 a month, which is approximately$2,865 today adjusted for inflation. Erin immediately got to work tackling the mountain of unanswered phone calls, sometimes even returning them herself. Clients seemed to love her. She was direct, personable, and easy to talk to. But inside the office, things were different. The other women who worked there mostly ignored her. Her flashy style, tight skirts, high heels, and low-cut tops didn't exactly help her fit in. But then one day, Ed Massery dropped a box of documents on her desk, all related to a woman named Roberta Walker. So who was this woman and why did this case land on Aaron's desk that day? In the late 1980s and early 1990s, Pacific Gas and Electric, better known as PGE, started quietly buying up homes in the small desert town of Hinckley, California, where Roberta Walker lived. Walker was born and raised in Hinckley and had no interest in selling her home. But as more and more neighbors accepted buyouts from the utility company, the pressure on her to do the same was becoming harder to ignore. A friend of hers named Joe Ramirez suggested she speak with an attorney before making any major decisions. Ramirez was childhood friends with Jim Vidato's wife, so he gave Walker Jim's number. Walker's attempts to connect with Jim initially went unanswered. Eventually, his wife convinced Ed Massery to meet with Walker in person, and this is because Ed and Jim are partners in the law firm.

Remi 1:22:36

Which is excluded from the film.

Ashley 1:22:38

Jim is completely absent, and he's the whole reason Aaron has any sort of connection at the firm. Frankly, he's the entire reason she's hired there.

Remi 1:22:48

Yeah, in the movie, basically, anything that he would have done, they have Ed do instead.

Ashley 1:22:55

It seems like they just combined him.

Remi 1:22:57

For streamlining purposes, I can understand why they did this.

Ashley 1:23:02

During Ed's meeting with Walker, she mentioned a number of troubling health issues she had been experiencing. Out of concern, Masrie referred her to a doctor and a lay for a full workup. The test results were added to the growing pile of paperwork connected to Walker's real estate case. Forgotten once the firm's personal injury department took a quick look at the situation and estimated it being worth about$10,000. Far too small of a sum to pursue seriously. But because of Walker's connection to the Vitatos, the firm agreed to keep the case open and handle it pro bono. Still, they couldn't put one of the heavy hitters on the case. They would lose too much money. Their salaries were too high. Because Aaron was the lowest person on the totem pole, and due to another file clerk being out that day, she was tasked with looking everything over despite having no legal training.

Remi 1:24:09

Out of curiosity, do you know about how much an attorney would be making around this time?

Ashley 1:24:17

So it's hard to say, but what I will point out is that this law firm handled civil lawsuits. So typically, attorneys that are handling civil lawsuits, they are not public defenders. They are attorneys that are 100% work by the hour for hire. So for a starting lawyer at this type of firm, you're probably looking at 80 to 100K. For a seasoned lawyer, like the partners in the firm, you're probably looking at, I mean, at least 250 to half a million dollars a year. Aaron Brockist is making minimum wage.

Remi 1:24:54

And this was assigned to her, someone with no legal experience at this firm.

Ashley 1:24:59

Because the legal clerk, who they normally would have given this over to, to basically just skim through the files. She's not supposed to be the attorney in the case. They're basically saying skim through these files, make notes on anything that's important, tell it to us, or write it up in a summary document. That person was out of the office that day. So it just got thrown on Aaron's desk.

Remi 1:25:22

Then I can understand why she was demanding of a pay raise. She deserves one in this situation, absolutely.

Ashley 1:25:29

At first, Aaron Brockovich was the only person assigned to this case.

Remi 1:25:34

That is crazy.

Ashley 1:25:37

Well, remember, at this point, it's just a very simple, kind of low-level real estate dispute. PGE is trying to buy this property, Roberta doesn't sell, so they basically just want to get her the best deal they can.

Remi 1:25:52

Still, it's kind of mind-boggling.

Ashley 1:25:55

As Erin started working through the box of documents, one record in particular caught her attention. The results of Roberta Walker's blood test. The numbers were alarming. Her white blood cell count was far outside the normal range. Something about this did not sit right. With Mastery's permission, she started making trips to Hinckley to see what she could find. As she spoke with residents, a troubling pattern began to emerge. Nearly everyone seemed to be suffering from some unexplained health issue. Skin rashes, chronic nosebleeds, digestive issues, miscarriages, infertility, birth defects, and various forms of cancer. Even the animals seemed to be affected. The more Aaron learned, the more convinced she became that something wasn't right here. Her attention finally turned to PG ⁇ E, the company trying to buy Walker's home. At first, Mastery was skeptical that the company had anything to do with it, but once he realized it was worth roughly$28.3 billion, he agreed it might be worth investigating further.

Remi 1:27:11

Dude saw dollar signs.

Ashley 1:27:45

The catch? It's highly toxic and a known carcinogen.

Remi 1:27:50

See, they left out the part where it was the cheapest, explaining why they were using this in the system to begin with.

Ashley 1:27:58

Yes, that's why. It was very, very, very cheap and very, very, very effective.

Remi 1:28:03

Yeah, that is left unexplained in the film. I had absolutely No idea why they chose to use literally the most harmful version of this chromium available.

Ashley 1:28:14

Well, and the roots of the case go back decades. In 1952, PGE built a compressor station in Hinckley as part of a natural gas pipeline that ran from Texas to Northern California. Compressor stations are essential for long pipelines because they increase the pressure of the gas by reducing its volume, which allows it to travel long distances more efficiently. But this process generates a lot of heat. To cool the equipment, compressor stations rely on water-based cooling systems. And as we all know, when water and metal come together, it creates the perfect conditions for rust and coercion.

Remi 1:29:02

Interesting. They use similar things like this for hard drives as well.

Ashley 1:29:07

To prevent this, PG ⁇ E started using chromium-6 in the cooling towers. Between 1952 and 1966, the company dumped roughly 370 million gallons of wastewater containing chromium 6 into a series of unlined ponds near the plant, which affected up to two square miles around the facility. 378 million gallons of water. Between 1952 and 1966, remember when all of this shit is going down with Aaron Brokovich, this is in 1992-1993. This is 30 to 40 years after this happened.

Remi 1:29:50

So it is insanely deeply rooted into all of Hinckley.

Ashley 1:29:57

And this contamination went unreported for decades. The local water quality board wasn't notified until December 7th, 1987. So this is 20 years after they even stopped dumping chromium-6. The board ordered an environmental assessment and found the results they so feared. High concentrations of chromium-6 were found in Hinckley's groundwater, including 10 private drinking wells.

Remi 1:30:29

Did you find any reason as to why these ponds weren't lined properly?

Ashley 1:30:35

I'm assuming PGE was just dumping their water into water sources that already existed. I also read that in some cases they would just dump it on the desert floor. After finding these disturbing results, regulators ordered PG ⁇ E to begin cleaning up the contamination. PG ⁇ E complied, at least initially. They spent about$12.5 million on remediation efforts, but then their strategy shifted. Instead of focusing solely on cleanup, the company began quietly approaching residents whose properties relied on the contaminated groundwater. They spoke to the owners of three farms and 10 homes to see if they would consider selling, in some cases, offering 10 times the market value of the land. For many residents, the offer was too good to refuse. So basically, it was cheaper for PGE to just try to buy out Hinckley than it was to clean up the mess they caused 20 years prior. Hence comes Roberta Walker. She did not want to sell. Anderson et al. v. Pacific Gas and Electric, the 1993 lawsuit, made straightforward but serious claims. It alleged PG ⁇ E contaminated Hinckley's drinking water for years and failed to warn residents about the potential health risks associated with chromium 6. Meanwhile, the residents were drinking the water, bathing in it. Their kids played in it. Every time someone turned on a shower or used water in their air conditioners, they were breathing it in.

Remi 1:32:22

I didn't even consider that aspect.

Ashley 1:32:31

The report claimed about 90% of the chromates had been removed from the water supply through agricultural use. In other words, the company suggested the contamination had essentially worked its way out of the system and that future health risks were unlikely.

Remi 1:32:49

So they lied.

How Erin Built Trust And Leverage

Ashley 1:33:01

The results conflicted with PG ⁇ E's claims. The chromium levels in some walls were still well above hazardous waste standards, which raised an even bigger question. If the contamination levels were this high now, what were they like five, ten, or even fifteen years earlier? Aaron worked relentlessly on the case for four years. What started as a curiosity became an obsession, and Mastery was just as invested. He even mortgaged his home to keep the case going before bringing in two other larger law firms to help cover the growing cost of litigation. To help Aaron manage the workload and still care for her kids, he even hired Jorge to work as her nanny.

Remi 1:33:53

Oh, he hired Jorge? It wasn't Aaron?

Ashley 1:33:56

Ed paid Jorge's salary.

Remi 1:33:58

Wow, alright, the movie omitted that as well.

Ashley 1:34:03

Erin's determination grew stronger with each passing day. At one point, a PGE employee named Chuck Ebersoll approached her at the Sit and Bull Cafe and quietly told her that he had been ordered to destroy documents related to the Hinckley compressor station. So how did Brokovich manage to drive such a massive case forward without any formal legal training? First and foremost, she connected with the plaintiffs on a deeply personal level. She understood them. They shared many of the same hopes and values. Like Aaron, they were simply trying to build better, healthier lives for their families. This connection made people trust her. You can be heard.

SPEAKER_16 1:34:53

And I would I would talk to people on the phone till 12, 1 o'clock in the morning. I'd be back on the phone at 7 o'clock at night. I would listen to their pain and their sorrow. And I would help, I guess, in a sense, you know, not motivate them. I don't know what word I'm searching for, but I was there for them. I believed in them. I believed what I found. I believed what I saw. And I believe that you can't just walk away.

Ashley 1:35:22

Erin was also curious and eager to learn. She wasn't afraid to ask questions. If she didn't understand a document, memo, regulation, or a legal jargon, she just asked someone to explain it to her. Then of course, none of this would have been possible without Ed Massery. He believed in her in the case, too.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:42

She's intelligent, she's kind, she's loyal, courageous. I've got all the adjectives. Erin is, you know, with the exception of my wife, the perfect woman.

Ashley 1:35:54

Ed Massery is such a sweet old man. I would normally think what he said was creepy, that she was the perfect woman, but he is significantly older than her. He's a grandpa, and you can just tell he just saw something in her that no one else did.

Remi 1:36:10

Yeah, I like Ed.

Ashley 1:36:12

When it came time for trial, the case had grown to include 634 plaintiffs. In massive civil suits like this, the claims are handled in phases rather than trying every single case individually. In the first trial of 36 plaintiffs, the jury returned a judgment of$131 million against PG ⁇ E. Facing the possibility of even larger losses if the remaining cases went to trial, the company quickly moved to settle through arbitration. PGE ultimately agreed to pay$333 million, which is$684 million today, to resolve the remaining claims. It was the largest settlement ever paid in a direct action lawsuit in US history. And I believe if you adjust for inflation, it still is today.

Remi 1:37:11

It was not enough. This was contaminating generations in this town without anyone's knowledge. And I don't know if any amount of money can make up for that. Literally, entire families, children, every single person in this town was affected.

Ashley 1:37:28

So it puts that scene in the movie when she's kind of going off because PGE is offering 20 million and she's like, um, is that enough for you? Times that by 10 or 100 or whatever she says. It puts that into perspective because$2,000 per plaintiff is not enough for the generational harm that was impacted by PGE and Hinckley.

Remi 1:37:54

I totally agree, but the way she went about it was very abrasive in the film.

Aftermath Activism And Later Controversies

Ashley 1:37:59

Because the final proceedings were handled through arbitration, which is closed to the public, it remains unclear exactly what scientific evidence was presented about the long-term health effects of chromium 6 exposure, or to what extent PG ⁇ E's actions directly caused the illnesses reported by Hinckley residents. But in the court of public opinion, the settlement was as good as a conviction. For their role, Mastery and Vitato received$133 million, which is roughly$274 million today in the settlement. They gave Aaron Brokovich a bonus of$2.5 million, which is roughly$5.13 million.

Remi 1:38:47

And she deserved it. This woman gave it her all for this case.

Ashley 1:38:52

By 2013, PGE had spent another$750 million on environmental cleanup efforts in Hinckley. By 2001, at least 50 of the original 634 plaintiffs had died. Brokovich suspects over a third of the deaths were related to chromium-6 exposure. One of the first things Erin did with her settlement money was send her son to rehab. He was shipped off to two wilderness programs, one in Idaho and another in Utah. Given all that has been revealed about these programs in recent years, it's hard to say what Matt actually experienced there, but Erin says they helped him immensely, and she is still incredibly close to all of her kids to this day. Remy, I know you probably have a lot of thoughts about this.

Remi 1:39:54

I feel like we will someday cover a film that goes into the legal ramifications of these types of places.

Ashley 1:40:02

There has been, what, two or three documentaries about different camps like these?

Remi 1:40:09

Oh, the one that I went to was shut down. There were people made to eat their own vomit. There were people made to do push-ups in mud for literally eight hours. It was uh very abusive for teens that were all 17 and under.

Ashley 1:40:25

Yeah, it's just a matter of time before there's a true kind movie about one of these places. It's gonna happen. Well, next, Erin bought her dream home in Agora Hills. But during renovation, she discovered toxic mold throughout the house. She filed suit and settled in 2003 for$430,000, roughly$725,000 today from two parties and an additional undisclosed amount from a third.

Remi 1:40:57

So the real Aaron Brokovich not only experienced chromium-6 poisoning, but was also exposed to severe mold later in life.

Ashley 1:41:08

And a spinal hernia repair. After receiving the PG ⁇ E payout in 1997, Brokovich decided it was time for Jorge to move along. Not long after, he sued her for$3 million. Mazarine negotiated with Jorge and his attorney for a one-time bonus of$40,000, pending he dropped the lawsuit. He also gifted him a$20,000 custom Harley as a thank you gift for everything he did for Brockovich and her kids.

Remi 1:41:41

A go away Harley.

Ashley 1:41:43

Perhaps but a$20,000 one nonetheless. As the opening of Aaron Brockovich approach, Jorge teamed up with her first husband, Sean, in an extortion scheme. It was a double betrayal. Her kids loved Jorge, and she repeatedly helped Sean in the past financially and personally. For example, while the PG ⁇ E suit was still pending, he asked her and Mazory for a$10,000 loan to buy a trailer. She even helped him fund his carpet cleaning business and gave him a used car and furniture when he got his own place. Now both men threatened that unless they were paid$310,000, they would go to the press with proof that Brockovich was a bad mom and slept with Mazarie to advance through the company. Brokovich and Masory went to the Ventura County District Attorney's Office and set up a sting operation. The parties met at a bugged office while a dozen police officers listened from the next room. Sean, Jorge, and their lawyer were arrested as soon as money exchanged hands and they were held on$50,000 bail. In the end, the district attorney dismissed the charges against Sean and Jorge. Their attorney was sentenced to four to six months in jail, placed on three years of probation, fined$10,000, and permanently disbarred. The release of Aaron Brokovich sparked more than just box office buzz. It did lead to real changes in environmental policy. California lawmakers passed two bills requiring the assessment of chromium 6 levels in drinking water from the San Fernando Basin Aquifier. They also established limits on how much chromium 6 could legally be in the water. At the federal level, the government allocated$3 million to build a treatment plant and develop technology to remove chromium 6 in water supplies. Which I'm sorry,$3 million, that's gonna do fucking nothing. The renewed attention on Hinckley also drew skeptics. Some questioned whether the town's cancer rates were actually higher than average. Certain studies were even published claiming the chemicals found in Hinckley's water wasn't carcinogenic at all. These claims were later discredited. In the month following the film's release, Brokovich's profile skyrocketed. She received hundreds of interview requests, including one to pose for Playboy, which she declined. The law firm received 100,000 emails about potential toxic sites across the country. It was clear the story of Hinckley and Aaron Brockovich captured the public's attention and had a lasting impact on environmental health awareness. The next case Brockovich was involved in was Kettleman VPGE, which involved another compressor station and more chromium-6 contamination. This lawsuit had 1,200 plaintiffs and settled in 2006 for$335 million, which is about$534 million today. She took part in several other environmental and anti-pollution lawsuits, one of which accused the Whitman Corporation, the second largest bottler of Pepsi products, of chromium-6 contamination. In 2003, Brokovich and Masri filed a lawsuit against the Beverly Hills Unified School District. The suit alleged the district had put students' health at risk by allowing a contractor to operate a cluster of oil wells on campus. Wells that were suspected of causing cancer in around 300 people. They were very excited about this lawsuit from several interviews I listened to. It was brought up several times that there's celebrity kids that go to the school district.

Remi 1:45:58

Which makes it much more important, obviously.

Ashley 1:46:02

Well, testing and epidemiological investigations failed to show a link between the wells and the reported illnesses, and the case was ultimately lost. Masserie had to pay the legal fees. In March 1999, Brockovich married Eric Ellis, an aspiring actor and late-night country music DJ. Ed Massery walked her down the aisle. Unfortunately, this marriage also ended in divorce in 2012. In 2003, Brokovich left Massery and Vitato to start her own company, Brokovich Research and Consulting. She remained close with Massery and was holding his hand when he died in 2005.

Remi 1:46:49

That is very sweet.

Ashley 1:46:55

It really does seem that it was completely plutonic and they just really respected each other.

Remi 1:47:02

Yeah, I love their real life relationship a lot.

Ashley 1:47:06

And it seems like they kind of had what the other person didn't, which is why they were successful in just these insanely huge lawsuits. Brokovich continued her activism, focusing on water contamination, climate change, and the harmful effects of corporations on environmental health. In 2009, she was involved in two more lawsuits alleging chromium-6 contamination. That same year, she realized the CDC was not systematically tracking environmental disasters and the health problems that followed. She began advocating for the creation of such a system. In 2012, Brokovich traveled to Leroy, New York, where 15 high school students, 14 of them were female, had suddenly developed ticks and speech difficulties. She suspected environmental pollution from a train derailment from 1971.

SPEAKER_16 1:48:09

I went online, and lo and behold, in 1971, there was a very serious train derailment that caused one ton of cyanide to spill and 45,000 gallons of TCE.

SPEAKER_08 1:48:25

Okay, TC is trichlorethylene is a well-known carcinogen. Can it also cause these sorts of neurological problems?

SPEAKER_16 1:48:31

I have read and been involved in cases that we have that TCE can be associated with neurological disorders.

Remi 1:48:39

Okay, it seems like she's reaching a little bit here.

Ashley 1:48:42

And she did travel to Leroy to conduct testing in the area, but doctors eventually determined the case was one of mass psychogenic illness, exasperated by media exposure.

Remi 1:48:57

What is a psychogenic illness?

Ashley 1:49:00

Basically, these girls just kind of leached on to each other and the attention they were getting. And it was like a somatic type deal. So they truly did feel like they were having these involuntary ticks, but it was all in their heads. And interestingly, the symptoms improved once media coverage of the case died down. Brokovich has also spoken out on numerous other environmental issues, including a methane gas leak in California in 2016, the 2023 train derailment in East Palestine, Ohio, and of course the Flint, Michigan water crisis.

SPEAKER_09 1:49:41

How do you, how are you getting involved in the crisis in Flint, Michigan? How did you first find out about it?

SPEAKER_16 1:49:47

From the community. About a year ago, they contacted me, and people were concerned about the changes of the color of the water. They were concerned about the smell of the water. They became concerned about their families. So oftentimes when we get called, we'll send investigators out, which we did, and we actually have. Wrote a protocol for the city on how to treat the situation. So they're not a good idea.

Ashley 1:50:09

In recent years, Erin expanded her advocacy to include medical safety by working as a customer advocate for people injured by medical devices and drugs. For example, she collected stories about women harmed by Eshur, a permanent contraceptive implant. Women reported a range of side effects, from headaches to nausea to colon perforation. Some even needed hysterectomies. Her efforts were instrumental in getting the device removed from the market. Erin Brockovich still lives in her Agora Hills home, sharing it with her four dogs, a Papillon and three Pomeranians. Over the years, she's achieved many professional and personal milestones. She has three honorary advanced degrees, including one from Lewis and Clark Law School in Portland, Oregon. She's authored two books and hosted two TV series. Challenge America with Aaron Brockovich on ABC and Final Justice on Zone Reality. In March 2025, she became a global ambassador for Made by Dyslexia, a charity dedicated to increasing understanding of and support for people with the disorder. She still gives motivational lectures focusing on environmental activism, corporate accountability, and personal empowerment. At every single one, she reads a letter her dad wrote her when she was grounded for skipping school at age 17. After an anecdote about lying and the importance of honesty and respect, it concludes. Together, Aaron, we can be assured that will be accomplished. I love you, Dad. And that is the true story of Steven Soderbergh's Aaron Brockovich.

Remi 1:52:14

Wow, I must say the real life Aaron Brockovich is far more sympathetic than the on-screen version. In my opinion, I know everyone loves the movie and loves Julia Roberts, but I don't know. I really admire the real life Aaron Brockovich. She was a fighter, but she wasn't to the extent that she is shown in the film, where it's more confrontational. I mean, in real life she was asking Ed for help with things that she didn't know, and I don't know, it seemed to be more of a partnership. Well in the film it seemed to be more of her just yelling at Ed. So I don't know. I think that the real life woman is a hero, and I don't think the film does her justice.

Ashley 1:53:05

I think what happened here is again, as we pointed out, Steven Soderberg had Julia Roberts read a script, and what was portrayed in the script was Aaron Brockovich's strength, as it should have been. What was missing was her self-doubt, her self-esteem issues, and her humble nature.

Remi 1:53:27

And that is what makes her sympathetic. Her having to struggle through these things, not just through yelling at people, saying this is what I'm going through, but actually hearing about what she went through with her first husband, being dyslexic, and so much getting to where she got to at this company that just dumped this case on her lap, and she took the lead without any provocation, is really admirable. She is a very impressive woman, and I think the film makes her into a different type of character than she is in real life.

Ashley 1:54:08

And just with the case being dumped in her lap, in the movie, it's portrayed as she's just kind of not showing up to work because she's just chilling in Hinckley talking to people. In reality, she is getting permission from her boss, Ed, who gave the case to her to spend her days in Hinckley doing this. She is asking Ed for money to get a geologist to go and do independent testing. She is accepting the fact that Ed has to bring in extra law firms to cover what this lawsuit is going to cost because it is growing exponentially. She's not throwing all of these hissy fits left and right.

Remi 1:54:49

And all of these things make her more sympathetic. And I guess if you're one of those people who really loves Julia Roberts, you like this sort of performance out of her. And I'm just not one of those people. In fact, we were discussing off-air just now actresses who were famous around the time this film came out, who may have been suitable for this role. And the person that you brought up, which I wholeheartedly agree with, was Sandra Bullock. I think Sandra Bullock could have done a role like this phenomenally and sympathetically. She has a very similar career to Julia Roberts, but I have always had more of a fondness for Sandra Bullock than I have for Julie Roberts.

Ashley 1:55:38

I agree. I am obsessed with Sandra Bullock. I think she is just the bee's knees.

Remi 1:55:45

And with that, let's get into our first objection of the week for season six.

Objection of the Week 1:55:54

Your Honor, I object! And why is that, Mr. Reed? Because it's devastating to my case! Overrule. Good call!

Ashley 1:56:02

And as a quick reminder, our objection is the most superfluous change from the silver screen to the real story. Remy, why don't you kick us off with the objection?

Remi 1:56:14

I had a few on this one. They changed a lot of different things. They omitted her dyslexia, they omitted George's daughter. But the most unnecessary change out of everything, in my opinion, was that in real life, Erin Brockovich was Miss Pacific Coast. But in the film, she was Miss Wichita. Why change that? No reason, no excuses. Your turn, Ashley.

Ashley 1:56:44

That was also one I had on my list. I had more than three, but that was one on my list, and it was probably the one I would have picked if I went first, so I'm gonna go with my second one. In the movie, Erin Brockovich, her car accident where she had the severe neck spinal injury, it was when she was driving to a job interview.

Remi 1:57:08

From a job interview. She was leaving the job interview that she did not get.

Ashley 1:57:13

In reality, she was just driving home to see mom and dad.

Remi 1:57:17

She also broke a nail in the movie.

Ashley 1:57:19

Well, then that would be my objection. I don't know if she broke a nail. But in all seriousness, I'm giving it to yours. The Miss Beauty Pageant name change from Pacific Coast to Wichita. Yes, that's so funny and just so random. So I'm gonna give it to you.

Remi 1:57:37

My only assumption why they would change that is that Wichita sounds slightly better than Miss Pacific Coast. But that's the only reason I can think of.

Ashley 1:57:48

My guess is because she's from Kansas, and she does say in the movie that she's from Kansas.

Remi 1:57:54

Okay, that makes a bit more sense. But let's now get to the main event of our season premiere: our verdict.

Objection of the Week 1:58:03

At the conclusion of each episode, our hosts will deliver a verdict based on the film's accuracy. If the film is an honest portrayal of the events, then it will earn a not guilty verdict. If the adaptation is mostly factual, but creative liberties were taken for the sake of entertainment, the film will be declared a mistrial. But if the film ultimately strays too far from the truth, then it will be condemned as guilty and sentenced to a life behind bars.

Remi 1:58:31

Ashley, I'm gonna let you start things off since I took the lead with the objection.

Ashley 1:58:37

Okay, so I was a very avid note-taker throughout this whole episode. I have like half a page of objections, half a page of pluses, half a page of minuses. This was surprisingly not as true to the real life events as I was expecting. There was a lot of little things that were changed. The biggest change, I think, is they clearly played up her drama and sass for box office views. They also cut out Vitoe completely, and it was really just massery. And then there's a lot of difference between the relationship with Jorge that I didn't really like, that he was just kind of portrayed as this like rando neighbor when in reality it was someone that she met and was seriously dating, and like helped her move through different states to live with her. I think there's also some consolidation of what exactly went down the case. I already had known this going in that Roberta Walker was not a specific person in the movie. The main characters playing the plaintiffs in the movie are an amalgamation of all of these plaintiffs.

Remi 1:59:55

I assumed that they were the Jensens in the film.

Ashley 1:59:59

That's what I was assuming too. In my research that I had been doing for my part, I try to avoid anything that has to do with the movie, but sometimes it's impossible to do so. And one thing that did consistently come up is any character that's portrayed in the film from Hinckley is supposed to be all of the residents combined. So, with that being said, the biggest difference that is shooting me away from a not guilty verdict is basically just little changes that were made with how the whole trial process was made. And again, her relationship with Jorge, her relationship with Ed Massery, her relationship with the firm in general, her characterization. There's a lot of changes that were made. I'm gonna go with mistrial. I just can't, in good faith, say not guilty. Too many differences for me over here.

Remi 2:00:54

Well, I guess it's my turn then. I am going to give this film a mistrial as well. But I was more on the guilty cusp, but that's probably due to my disdain of Julia Roberts. But I am not going to litter this entire verdict with me berating Julia Roberts again. I've already been over that. However, I do think that her characterization of Aaron Brockovich is extremely detrimental to the story of the real person. The real person is sympathetic, the real person shows weaknesses, the real person does stand up for herself when need be, but does show respect when need be as well. The character on film does not do any of these things. She is loud, she is obnoxious, she is sympathetic to the people of Hinckley, but she is downright rude to Ed, and none of these moments where they are really working with one another, and she is going to him for help, and their entire relationship just seems weirdly askew in the movie. So I'm going to give this film a mistrial.

Ashley 2:02:08

Well, and that concludes our season six, episode one, premiere. And this is the reason why we wanted to start out each season with a blockbuster. Blockbusters can be beloved films. They can also be ones that spark a little controversy, like Aaron Brockovich when you get me and Remy in a room. Remy, what do we have on the docket for next week? I'm so excited.

Remi 2:02:33

A movie that's 10,000 times more controversial than this. Owning Mahoney. I know there's a pause there because you probably haven't heard of this film. But this is a Philip Seymour Hoffman movie about one of the biggest embezzlements in Canadian history. I don't know a tremendous amount about it, but I love Philip Seymour Hoffman, and I have never seen this film before, and I'm excited to see it.

Ashley 2:02:58

Philip Seymour Hoffman is the sole reason we are covering this film this season. We were, again, I think we've mentioned that we just randomly do this. We'll just look on random YouTube videos or random websites just searching for true crime movies, and we found some YouTube video that every single clip or movie recommendation was one we had never heard of before, and this was one of them. And it stars Philip Seymour Hoffman.

Remi 2:03:27

I am excited to see this film. I don't know a tremendous amount about it, but I know if he's in it, it's gonna be an amazing performance. So I'm excited to discuss him, and I am excited to learn more about the real crime that this is based on. A Canadian crime, no less.

Ashley 2:03:48

And if you also, like us, cannot wait for two weeks to experience Owning Mahoney. Stay tuned at the end of this episode for a sneak peek of the trailer. Also, don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe. And until then.

Remi 2:04:04

Court is adjourned. Mr. Mahoney has just become the branch's youngest assistant manager.

SPEAKER_13 2:04:12

Some folks believe everyone has a public life, a private life. Give me all the home teams in the national. And a secret life.

SPEAKER_14 2:04:21

For a few grand? It's 10,300.

SPEAKER_13 2:04:29

Are you sure he can handle a loan of this size? We're gonna do another 15 for cash pickup fight. Some pretty big bets on info.

unknown 2:04:43

How the hell does he get all the money?