Cherry

In this episode we take a deep dive into Cherry (2021) - directed by the Russo brothers and starring Tom Holland – and compare it to the true story that inspired it. From the realities of military service and PTSD to addiction, crime, and redemption, we separate Hollywood dramatization from real-life events. How closely does Tom Holland’s portrayal match the experiences of Nico Walker, the real-life figure behind the story?

Primary Sources:

• Buzzfeed (2013)
• Shelf Awareness (2018)
• Walker, Nico. Cherry. Vintage (2019).
• GQ (2021)
• The Granta Podcast (2025)

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Theme: DARKNESS (feat. EdKara) by Ghost148 

Transcript

Welcome Wedding News And Setup

Ashley 0:04

Welcome to Criminal Adaptations, where we take a look at some of your favorite movies and the true crime stories that inspired them. I'm Ashley, a clinical psychologist and forensic evaluator in the state of Oregon.

Remi 0:17

And I'm Remy. I spent over a decade working in the film and television industry in Los Angeles, California.

Ashley 0:24

And welcome back, everybody. Two weeks ago, we talked about a military veteran roof hopping robber hiding inside Toys R Us. And today we are talking about another military veteran who is also a robber, but this time of Banks. Remy, how are you doing today?

Remi 0:43

I'm doing okay. I'm having a little bit of an allergic reaction to my toothpaste, so that's been fun. But other than that, I think you and I need to officially announce that we are married now. We recorded the last few episodes in advance to give us time to prep for the celebration. And yeah, it's a done deal. We have tied the knot, so just wanted to announce that to everybody. A little bit of good news to start off the episode this week.

Ashley 1:19

It was a really great wedding. Shout out to all of our listeners that were there to celebrate with us. It was a blast. I wish we could do it again, but minus the expenses.

Remi 1:30

Yes, thank you all to the family and friends who listened to this podcast and were there that day. But today, we will be discussing the film Carrie, based on the life of Nico Walker, an Iraq war veteran who returned home with PTSD, got addicted to heroin, and began robbing banks to finance his habit.

Ashley 1:55

And the film is directed by some pretty heavy hitters, wouldn't you say?

Remi 2:02

I would absolutely say that. This film is directed by Joe and Anthony Russo, aka the Russo brothers. They have made such hugely successful blockbusters as Captain America Winter Soldier, Captain America Civil War, Avengers Infinity War, Avengers Endgame, and of course You, Me, and Dupree.

Ashley 2:25

And they're slated to direct the next two Avengers movies, so they are just continuing with Marvel.

Remi 2:33

Yeah, it's kind of crazy that these guys went from making four of the highest-grossing, crowd-pleasing Marvel movies in cinematic history, to following it up with a depressing film like this about drug addiction and PTSD. It is not what I would have expected from them, in all honesty.

Ashley 2:54

Well, there is a personal story as to why they chose this.

Remi 2:59

I always got the impression that they were trying to prove to the rest of Hollywood that they could make a serious film after making all those crazy Marvel films for so long. And I saw this film back when it was released on streaming, and I don't remember them pulling that off successfully,

Why Cherry Drew The Russos

Remi 3:20

but maybe I am misremembering. Ashley, you saw this a lot more recently than I have. Do you think they pulled off this serious film transition that I assume they were going for?

Ashley 3:32

I think it's a good movie. It's long, it's two hours and 20 minutes. It is shot in a really unique way, which I think might throw some people off. But one thing that really sticks out in this film is Tom Holland's performance, which we'll talk about throughout my section. I think he does a remarkable job in this and really did prove himself as a serious actor. I'm excited to see if he can do the same in the Odyssey coming out in what next month?

Remi 4:03

June? It is coming out very soon. And yeah, this film stars Spider-Man himself playing a heroin-addicted bank robber, which is a very interesting casting choice. But I felt like he was another person who was trying to prove that he could do things outside of the superhero genre. And he hasn't done a lot of it since then. But I do remember him seeming like he had a really promising dramatic career, and then sort of passing the torch over to Zendaya, and then he just jumped back into Spider-Man stuff.

Ashley 4:38

He's a good actor. I'm really excited for Odyssey and what he does as Odysseus's son. But enough chitter-trotter. I think it's time for us to get into how this random semi-autobiographical novel turned into a film made by a duo that is responsible for some of the highest-grossing films of all time.

Cherry 5:01

Hey! Get on the ground! Get on the fucking ground now! One thing about robbing banks is you're mostly robbing women, so the last thing you want to be is rude.

Ashley 5:10

Ma'am, it's nothing personal. And actually, before we dive in, we forgot to announce this is our switcheroo episode.

Jim Rome 5:19

The old switcheroo.

Ashley 5:23

So instead of hearing Remy talk about the movie, it's me. I watched Cherry and did all the research for it. So buckle up, everyone.

Remi 5:33

It's kind of funny. We completely forgot to announce that. But yeah, this is our annual switcheroo episode. I am gonna be on the back half covering the true story. And Ashley, it is your turn to take the lead and tell us about the pre-production of Cherry.

Ashley 5:48

Cherry is a 2021 American crime drama directed by Anthony and Joe Russo, starring Tom Holland and Sierra Bravo. Nico Walker's semi-autobiographical

Rights Casting And Production Challenges

Ashley 6:00

novel of the same name was adapted by their sister, Angela Russo Ostett and Jessica Goldberg.

Remi 6:07

Oh, so it was a family affair.

Ashley 6:10

The Russo brothers, who, like Walker, grew up in Cleveland, very close to where Walker grew up, I might add, were introduced to the novel while filming Avengers Endgame in late 2017 and early 2018.

Joe Russo 6:25

The book agent we know slipped us this book before its release, uh, and he said, I think you're gonna love this. It was set in Cleveland, and I know you guys are big Cleveland guys. Uh and Anthony read it without knowing what to expect from it. We we knew it was about the opioid crisis, but we did not expect the level of authenticity and truth that we found in the voice in the book. And it's very clear that Nico Walker, the author of the book, had gone through uh a very complicated life experience or collection of life experiences. And he translated um, you know, his emotional truth into this book. And uh it was so profound because this is very personal to us. Cleveland uh and the industrial Midwest, in a lot of ways, is ground zero for the opioid crisis. There is uh an existential blight that has gripped that part of the country for the last few decades, you know, a creeping sense of trauma that has infiltrated it. Uh and uh and we know a lot of people, a lot of family members who are struggling with addiction and uh family members who have died uh from addiction. So this was a very personal choice for us to make this movie.

Ashley 7:36

So, to answer your rhetorical question earlier, they basically chose this movie because they grew up in Cleveland around where Nico Walker grew up, and they had family that had been impacted and died from the opioid epidemic, which is actually why they wanted their sister to write it. It was the first movie screenplay she had ever written.

Remi 7:58

I can totally relate to that. My parents live in upstate New York, and I spent some time there in my teenage years. And yeah, I had a lot of friends who dealt with some very serious addiction problems while they were there, and their stories were always ones that I wanted to capture on screen and thought were very worth telling.

Ashley 8:20

The Russo brothers contacted Walker while he was in prison to negotiate the film rights. This proved challenging since he was only allowed to talk on the phone for three minutes at a time. Nonetheless, their production company officially purchased the production rights in August 2018, beating out Warner Brothers with James Franco set to direct and Sony Pictures.

Remi 8:45

Well, bullet dodged there.

Ashley 8:47

Yeah, no kidding. Per Walker, what set the Russo brothers apart from the others was their commitment to actually making the film. Tom Holland was approached to play the title character during an ADR session for Endgame in early 2019. Remy, what's an ADR session?

Remi 9:06

When they come back in to re-record their lines that they didn't get clearly when they were recording it on set.

Ashley 9:14

Not long after the film was announced, Bill Skarsgard was cast to play the drug dealer character, but had to drop out because of scheduling conflicts. He was replaced by Jack Rayner, the awful boyfriend and bear from Midsummer that Remy dressed up as last Halloween.

Remi 9:32

And we just saw him in The Mummy, where he was a slightly less worse husband than his boyfriend.

Ashley 9:39

I like this actor. I'm excited to see what he does. He does interesting roles and he's good. To prepare for the role, Tom Holland lost 27 pounds, which is a substantial amount for someone who normally clocks in at just 141.

Remi 9:54

Oh my god, a gust of wind could have taken him off his feet.

Ashley 9:59

His weight loss was achieved through exercise, mostly running while wrapped in trash bags to increase his sweat production, and a strict diet of about 500 calories per day.

Remi 10:12

That sounds grueling.

Ashley 10:16

While he was working on losing the weight, he and co-star Sierra Bravo visited a veterans addiction treatment center near the Cleveland set numerous times to learn more about the impact of the opioid crisis.

Tom Holland 10:31

Sierra and I sat down and we we interviewed veterans and people who were suffering from substance abuse. And it was so enlightening, and I learned so much about a topic I knew very little about. And from talking to these people and learning their stories and being so touched that they were able to share such kind of personal and quite frankly horrible experiences that they had been through, I felt a level of responsibility to portray them and portray their life experiences in the most truthful and authentic way possible. So for me, it was all about just giving it everything I had and trying my best.

Ashley 11:09

I must say, we used to joke that Timothy Chalamet got the career Tom Holland wanted. But everything I have learned about Tom Holland through this, and actually even before this, just based on interviews and things he said about Zendaya, he seems like such a better guy and someone that would be much more pleasant to be friends with and hang out with than Timothy Chalamet.

Remi 11:35

He definitely seems more level-headed. I know his parents were in the industry, so he grew up around it. So he's been around it his whole life, and for a lot of people that can really mess with your head, but he seems to have stayed very level-headed, and my hat's off to him. I hear he's planning to take some time off to be a stay-at-home dad when he and Zendaya have kids,

Tom Holland Prep Reverse Shooting

Remi 12:00

and he seems like a very good guy.

Ashley 12:02

Filming was supposed to begin in Cleveland on July 15th, 2019, but the Greater Cleveland Film Commission's proposed changes and tax incentives forced the chute to California. Not long after, the proposed figures lowered from 100 million to 40 million, which moved filming back to Ohio.

Remi 12:24

Why did it get lowered by so much? Do you know?

Ashley 12:27

I couldn't find that out. Tax shit.

Remi 12:30

Hmm, indeed.

Ashley 12:32

Production started on October 8th, 2019. The film was actually shot in reverse order. So all of the scenes where Cherry is addicted to drugs were shot before the scenes he was in Iraq.

Remi 12:46

So he had to put on weight as the production went on?

Ashley 12:50

He had to lose all that weight and then regain it.

Remi 12:54

Man, that must have been awful putting his body through that.

Ashley 12:58

Shooting locations included the North Central Correctional Complex and St. Peter Channel High School, which is actually where the Russo's dad went to school before the building was demolished.

Remi 13:11

I feel like this film was a bit of a coming home thing for the Russos as well. I think they were eager to get back to their hometown and do some filming rather than on a giant sound stage with green screens. Similar to the Davids when one of them left to make the death of Dick Long.

Ashley 13:31

There was so much press interviews for this movie that included Tom Holland, the Russo Brothers, the screenwriters, and Sierra Bravo. And you could really tell that they viewed this movie as a statement about the dangers of addiction, a statement about how there needs to be better healthcare for veterans, and really a love letter to their hometown. Interestingly, the Russo brothers edited the film as it was being shot, which gave them the opportunity to rewrite and reshoot parts of the script in real time.

Remi 14:08

That is unorthodox. I used to do that when I was first making films and I didn't have enough money for extra tapes in my camcorder.

Ashley 14:18

To help Tom Holland, who went on record saying he never did drugs before, much less heroin, accurately portray an addict, a consultant by the name of Brian was on set to coach him through the drug addiction scenes. Because the film was shot in reverse order, Holland then had to pack back on the pounds for the Iraq scenes, which were filmed in Morocco while the cast and crew slept in tents set up in the desert. Filming wrapped in February 2020. And now, Remy, are you ready to sit back, relax, and listen to a summary of the movie Cherry?

Remi 14:58

I'm locked and loaded. Let's go.

Ashley 15:24

This is the first of seven parts, all of which start with a title against a bright

Movie Plot Love And Enlistment

Ashley 15:30

red backdrop. Twenty-three-year-old Cherry, played by Tom Holland, is driving a pickup truck, and through internal dialogue, it sounds like he's stuck in life, directionless. He walks up to an unseen man in a black car and says he will meet him in the parking lot in three minutes. While narrating his thoughts, he drives to a bank, tells us why he chose his outfit, pulls a scarf over his face, storms in, and screams that he's a wanted man. After pointing a gun at a frightened teller and instructing her to hand over the money, sadness overcomes him. Part one When life was beginning, I saw you 2002. We flash back to when Cherry first lays eyes on Emily, played by Sierra Bravo, in a crowded lecture hall. She chats him up outside where Cherry tells her he's still in a relationship with his high school girlfriend Madison, who he promised to visit that weekend. Madison is clearly the more dominant one in the relationship. Even though they've only been at their respective schools for a month, every guy on campus seems to know who she is. At a party, she grabs a rando's hand and dances suggestively with him while Cherry watches from a distance. Back in New Jersey, we meet James Lightfoot, played by Forrest Goodluck, Cherry's best friend since grade school. James's parents died young, and his older brother was never the same after he returned home from the war. On the way to the bank, James picks up Roy, played by Kyle Harvey, who is, I guess, often known by his stage name, Super Duper Kyle. Oh yeah, Super Duper Kyle. And his cousin Joe, which on IMDV, that's the name of the character, Cousin Joe. Played by young Tony Soprano himself, Michael Gandalfini.

Remi 17:30

Hey, I do not remember him being in this film. I've seen a few things he's been in since this. He's a good actor.

Ashley 17:36

Roy is pissed because Cousin Joe joined the Marines, and nothing anyone can say will change his mind. After Cherry comes out of the bank after unsuccessfully trying to reverse a series of overdraft fees, James's car is on fire, forcing the dejected bunch to make the long trek home on foot. The next day, Cherry heads off to sell some of his Xanax, which he gets for panic attacks. He trades the pills for some ecstasy and is invited to a mid-afternoon house party, where Emily just so happens to be sitting in a front yard tree swing. She notices he's rolling immediately.

Emily 18:20

Why is that?

Cherry 18:23

Um, because I like you a lot. Shut up. I really do. And you're jacked, it's really cool. Whoa. And um what? Oh, I was thinking, what are you thinking? Just thinking that you're shady.

Remi 18:47

So he's just rolling balls in the middle of the day, apparently? I mean, the sun was shining outside.

Ashley 18:54

That was my thought too when I was watching this, because there's like a party going on. So not only is he rolling in the middle of the day, people are partying. What I told myself is maybe it's the end of daylight savings time, so maybe it's like seven o'clock. I don't know. Suspend belief.

Remi 19:10

People do have parties during the day in college, but taking ecstasy during the day seems like a strange choice.

Ashley 19:17

Emily and Cherry do spend the evening together, and their relationship quickly blossoms, portrayed by a series of clips of them together all around town. One night, Emily tells Cherry how she discovered her dad was having an affair, which has caused her to question if love truly exists. He decides this is the most opportune moment to declare his love for her. She rebuts with a heartfelt thank you. Not long after, Emily breaks up with him because she plans to transfer to a school in Canada at the end of the semester.

Cherry 19:53

I really want to go to school in Canada.

Ashley 19:55

What?

Cherry 19:57

Since when there's this uh this really great school in Montreal. In Montreal? Yeah, Paris of Canada. Yeah, I know what it fucking is. Please tell me that you're kidding. This isn't funny. Why would I be kidding you? So what that's it. We're just supposed to break up just like that. Well, we can't exactly be together when we live in two different countries. So Emily, what the fuck?

Ashley 20:22

I know nothing about Canada, much less Montreal. Is it really the Paris of the country?

Remi 20:29

I have been to Montreal, and no offense to Canada, but I would definitely not call it the Paris of Canada.

Ashley 20:38

A devastated Cherry decides to enlist in the army, searching for something good to do with his life. Back home, James once again tries to convince Cousin Joe not to deploy. Emily calls, asking Cherry if she can say goodbye before she leaves for Canada. He tells her to come by the restaurant he works at while he's bartending an event that night. He's throned when she arrives with a guy from Ghana and tells her to just leave. Sidebar, Cherry's boss in this scene is played by co-director Joe Russo.

Remi 21:12

He pops up in a lot of the films. I know he had a brief part at the beginning of Avengers Endgame as well.

Ashley 21:18

Emily is waiting in Cherry's room when he gets home that night. She apologizes for the breakup and has decided to stay. The only reason she wanted to leave in the first place because she was in love with him and afraid. Her bubble is burst when Cherry informs her he enlisted in the army because he was sad about the breakup. He encourages her to go to Montreal while he's away. After that, they can spend the rest of their lives together. They marry at the courthouse before he leaves for basic training. Part 2 BASIC 2003. At Basic Training, all the incoming recruits get their heads shaved, vaccines, and medical screenings. During the latter, Cherry learns he's colorblind, but that doesn't disqualify him from becoming a medic. Sidebar, Tom Holland's head was shaved throughout the duration of filming, so whenever he has hair in prior and later scenes, he's actually wearing a toupee that he kept.

Remi 22:18

Objection withholding information. You completely skipped over the scene where it's a POV shot from Tom Holland's butthole when he is getting checked out by the doctors for his physical. That is a scene that is permanently burned into my brain. And you wanted to just skip right on over it? No. We need to at least acknowledge that scene exists in this movie.

Ashley 22:41

Moving on! After getting his uniform, Cherry befriends fellow medic in training Jimenez, played by Jeff Wahlberg, who enlisted after learning his girlfriend was pregnant to try to get money to support his soon-to-be family. What follows is a series of scenes of drill sergeants verbally and at times physically accosting the recruits while they are put through a variety of strenuous athletic drills, causing Cherry to become increasingly disillusioned with his newfound career path. And just so you all know, in the clip I'm about to play, there's gonna be some pauses, and that's because YouTube has edited out all of the swears.

The Army 23:23

Look at you, you fing weak flip! You ain't shit!

Cherry 23:29

There's a lot of you!

The Army 23:31

Move! Move! Let's go! They call his names like you f with! Our hands were Those are goddamn skinners!

Cherry 23:46

Our mouths were COLCH!

The Army 23:48

You shut down the COFCER!

Remi 23:51

Okay, does anyone else think that it's sorta weird that they allowed the words fuck and shit and pisshole, but the only words that they bleeped out in that was the word dick. And cock. Yeah, but still, seems kinda weird that that is where the line is drawn on YouTube.

Ashley 24:11

I didn't even realize that, and I watched that scene I think two times before this. Yeah, I didn't notice. Good point. Part three Cherry In Iraq, Cherry and Jimenez

Iraq Chaos And Moral Injury

Ashley 24:25

are riding along in a Humvee squad trailing a slew of helicopters. A frenzied voice comes on the radio requesting immediate assistance during a coordinated enemy attack. The war zone is absolute chaos. Humvees on fire, bullets flying from all angles. Another soldier instructs Cherry and Jimenez to follow him through heavy fire towards two wounded men. Once there, Cherry is ordered to quote, get his guts back in and helps carry the man to a helicopter as the sound of gunfire fades away. Back at the base, Cherry showers off the dust, grime, and blood from the day while Jimenez debriefs with his fellow soldiers. Cherry asks Sergeant Green, played by Adam Long, if it's true that the man he tried so desperately to save died. Sergeant Green doesn't confirm or deny the news, instead telling him to not worry about it. Through voiceover, Cherry tells us he's stationed in and assigned to patrol the triangle of death. Despite the ominous name, most days he feels like a quote, glorified scarecrow, not really having anything to do other than look busy. Their patrol route often takes them through a small Iraqi village where kids run up to the trucks trying to get whatever they can. The day-to-day monotony is interrupted by a Christmas Day performance from the Denver Mustang cheerleaders, whose uniforms look exactly like the outfits from the Jingle Bell Rock Diddy and Mingrols. Sometime later, Cherry gets a call from Emily and learns his parents have offered to help them buy a house. Another duty of Cherry's squad is to provide emergency medical care to the Iraqi residents stationed around the area. In the background, his fellow soldiers shout racist remarks I dare not repeat. An older man shows Cherry his severely damaged hand, which the interpreter says happened two days ago while he was zip tied. Cherry takes the man to Sergeant North, played by Theo Barlin Biggs, and asks how he can help the man since they are out of antibiotics. Sergeant North's advice? Tell him to go eat shit and die. Cherry carefully wraps the man's hand and counsels the interpreter on the importance of getting him to a hospital with antibiotics. On the way home, Cherry's squad drives through the same village of little children, one of which he nicknames Pebbles because of her outfit.

Remi 27:04

Like Pebbles from the Flintstones.

Ashley 27:07

He hands her a package that is immediately stolen by the other children. That night, Cherry bonds with Jimenez through jokes and longing stories of the women waiting for them back home. On a drive through the desert sometime later, Cherry advises Sergeant North that they probably should stay on the assigned road rather than taking the shorter, less explored route. Sergeant North ignores this advice, causing one of the vehicles to get stuck in the mud. He once again ignores Cherry's advice to just wait for help, since that would take several hours. Instead, he sends a group, which includes Cherry's buddy Jimenez, back to the base to get the supplies they need. Almost immediately, the vehicle drives over an IED, instantly killing everyone inside. Cherry sprints to the truck, collapses in a daze, and stares at his burned friends. Sidebar, Tom Holland pulled a Tom Cruise during this scene and ran so fast that he injured his ankle.

Remi 28:13

Do you know if that's the take that they used on screen? I know it's like an unwritten Hollywood rule that if you injure yourself and still finish the scene and it looks good enough, they try to keep it.

Ashley 28:23

I'm not sure. I learned this fact because there is an interview on YouTube, a GQ interview where Tom Holland watches scenes and talks about the movie, and he said that he injured his ankle during that scene, so I assume so. Once a much kinder superior arrives, Cherry tells him the names of each of his comrades and helps carry them into body bags, even when his gloves start melting. Pebbles tries to get his attention on the way back to the base, but he's unable to give her a second glance. He tries to hold it together on the phone with Emily, a scene of which is interspersed with numerous battle sequences. He sobs the second he hangs up. This scene is really, really heart-wrenching. She's just talking to him and he is just trying to put off a facade that it's all okay. And Tom Holland is remarkable in this part. He is trying so hard to not completely break down, and then it's kind of one of those scenes where it's a quick hang up and he just lets it all out. It is really moving. Part four Home 2005. Cherry

Homecoming PTSD And Prescriptions

Ashley 29:37

arrives home to a crowded gym, cheers, and the Medal of Valor, a commendation he doesn't think he's earned. After two years apart, Emily enthusiastically jumps into his arms. They drive to their home in Ohio, and Cherry starts taking night classes. During the day, he works construction with Cousin Joe, who is also having a hard time adjusting back to normal life after his time in the Marine Corps. During an argument with his girlfriend about his drinking habits, of which Emily and Cherry were in the backseat, Cousin Joe opens the door and flings himself out of the vehicle. He has a smile on his face as he dies. He dies? It's not explicitly stated in the movie. It just kind of zooms in on his face. His eyes are open and he has a smile. But when I was looking at a summary of the movie on Wikipedia, it says he dies and he's not in the movie again after this.

Remi 30:36

That is unexpected.

Ashley 30:38

And Cherry isn't boating much better. He can't sleep, has extreme nightmares, and becomes extremely irate at the most minor inconvenience, like burnt toast. Before date night with Emily, he takes a handful of Xanax and starts drinking. At the theater, he becomes enraged at a group of men he thinks are dressed too casually.

Cherry 31:04

Are we the only ones dressed up? Doesn't matter. Didn't notice. Yeah, I'm talking to you. What's your problem, dude? Dude, what's your problem? My problem's the fact you didn't even have the decency to take off your LL bean before you came from the fucking golf.

Emily 31:28

Please be quiet.

Cherry 31:29

Fuck that motherfucker. I'd really like to go back. No, babe, we're not going anywhere.

The Army 31:33

I would really like to leave.

Remi 31:35

I have something to add to this. Having researched the real Nico Walker, his mother actually instilled in him at a very, very young age that dressing nice was really something that you were supposed to do. So he took pride in how he dressed, especially later in life after he got off drugs. But this is something that was really important to his mother, and clearly that's how it's being represented in the film.

Ashley 32:03

Cherry retreats to the bathroom, punches the mirror, quickly escorts Emily out with his bleeding hand, and takes more Xanax at home.

Remi 32:13

I have one question that I forgot to ask during the army portion. Was he using drugs while he was in the military? Did it show that at all?

Ashley 32:22

No. He starts taking Xanax when he gets home. He already had that prescription, and we're about to get into his oxycontin addiction.

Remi 32:31

Okay, just wanted to make sure.

Ashley 32:33

I don't even think he took Xanax when he was in the military, right? He had the prescription before he went, and then he comes back clearly with PTSD and still has his prescription and just starts taking it to numb himself, basically, and to be able to sleep. We then learn that on the same night of the disastrous date, Cherry's pal James Lightfoot, tried to welcome him home by sneaking into his house. Unfortunately for James, he got the address wrong. He's arrested for breaking and entering with a large bag of oxycontin, a drug he's become addicted to since Cherry was away.

Remi 33:11

So he just wandered into some random person's home with a pocket full of drugs and got arrested?

Ashley 33:19

He broke in through the window.

Remi 33:21

I don't think any surprise is worth breaking somebody's window.

Ashley 33:26

I don't think he broke the window. He just entered in through the window. But yeah, like knock on the front door to say hi to your friend, dude. I'd be pissed if my friend broke in by opening my window.

Remi 33:37

And he's living with his wife at this point. He could have actually probably arranged this with the person's partner before just taking it upon himself to do so.

Ashley 33:47

I chalk it up to drug addict logic. After Cherry bails James out of jail, he starts spending a lot of time at Cherry's house. To help soothe Cherry's Xanax withdrawal, James offers him a pain pill. Not long after, Cherry goes to psychiatrist, Doctor Womever at Emily's urging.

Remi 34:10

This is a recurring thing that happens in the movie, right? Whenever it's a doctor, it just kind of says doctor whatever, doctor so-and-so, stuff like that.

Ashley 34:18

This is the only doctor, but yes, a lot of the bank names, which I'll get into, are like Bank Fucks America. It's all like really sarcastic names. A couple of the sergeants that are in that scene when they're screaming at the recruits' faces, they also have sarcastic names like that. Cherry rates his pain as a nine out of ten and walks out of the appointment with his own Oxycon prescription. What a great psychiatrist! And really not doing anything about this guy's PTSD. And Cherry is not hiding his PTSD. He is saying he's having all these symptoms and also pain because he is withdrawing from Xanax because he is overusing his prescription.

Remi 35:06

It does seem odd that they would prescribe him oxycotton for this situation.

Ashley 35:12

So he just said he was in pain. And remember, this is like 2007. This is at the height or the beginning of when oxycontin was really on the market. So doctors were prescribing that shit left and right because they were getting kickbacks from Big Pharma to do so. So Cherry said he's in pain. They have a magic pill for that.

Remi 35:30

So this was during the making of the opioid crisis.

Ashley 35:34

Exactly. Which is kind of again why the Russo brothers really gravitated towards making the film. As Cherry's addiction escalates, so too does Emily's frustration. During a heated argument, she takes a handful of his pills, later telling him she wishes she never told him she was going to Montreal.

The Army 35:55

Fine. These are for me now. Because I would love, I would love a break from all of this shit.

Emily 36:12

Fuck! Yeah.

Ashley 36:16

And this, Cherry tells us, is how they became addicts.

Remi 36:21

I gotta say, I don't think I've seen this actress, Sierra Bravo, in anything else, but she is really, really good in this scene you just showed me.

Ashley 36:32

She is good throughout this movie. There is a scene that I'm gonna play next where she is great in it. And whoever this consultant Brian was that was teaching Holland and Bravo how to believably go through withdrawal and shakes and stuff like that, that guy deserves an Oscar. These two do a really, really great job in this movie. And it was really cute watching the interviews of Tom Holland. He just sings her praises, basically saying they became very close and he couldn't have given the performance he did or even have survived during the filming of this movie without her.

Remi 37:11

When you're going through really emotional, intense scenes like this, it helps to have a great supportive scene partner there with you.

Ashley 37:20

Part 5 Dope Life Emily and Cherry tumble quickly into the

Dope Life Robberies And Overdose

Ashley 37:26

throes of addiction. Emily shoots up before class and tells Cherry it's imperative he get to campus at 5 o'clock with her next fix since she has to stay late on Tuesdays. Now out of money, Cherry asks his dealer, Pills and Coke, played by Midsummer's Jack Reiner, for a loan. He agrees to loan him 80 bucks if he picks up a safe with unknown contents from a guy named Buckeye and stores it at his house for a little bit.

Remi 37:56

That's not shady at all.

Ashley 37:59

Cherry shoots up immediately after getting home and 15 minutes later calls James to come over to try to crack the code to the safe. When that doesn't work, they try other methods. Throwing it out the second story window, attaching it to the bumper of his truck, and speeding down the road, and repeatedly hitting it with a crowbar, the latter of which proves successful. Hitting it with a crowbar worked? My only guess is it had already been damaged from the other means that the crowbar was enough to just finish it off. Well, what was inside?

Remi 38:38

A treasure trove of drugs. That's not good because I don't think Cherry has a lot of self-control.

Ashley 38:46

No, he doesn't. Neither does Emily and James. The trio is passed out when they are awoken to pounding on the door by someone shouting, This is the police. Cherry and Emily frantically flush everything down the toilet, only to realize the unexpected visitor is Pills and Coke messing with them.

Remi 39:11

Oh my god, I would fucking kill those guys. That's not a funny joke.

Ashley 39:17

Uh, Remy, I think we have a little confusion here. Pills and Coke is one person. That's Midsummer.

Remi 39:23

Wait, so his full street name is Pills and Coke? I thought there was a guy named Pills and a guy named Coke. They're the same guy?

Ashley 39:30

It's the same guy. That's what he's named in the movie, going off of the sarcastic names that we discussed earlier.

Remi 39:39

That is not his name in the book.

Ashley 39:41

Well, Pills and Coke is in good spirits until he sees the busted empty safe. Turns out the safe was owned by a much more ominous drug dealer named Black, who's going to kill all four of them unless they quickly come up with a lot of cash. Cherry has a plan.

Remi 40:03

How much cash did he need to get together?

Ashley 40:05

It didn't say, but this is a standard size safe, and when they open it, it was filled with drugs. And they did a bunch and then flushed everything down the toilet. So a lot. Cherry's plan is this. Without any sort of disguise, he walks into a bank and sets down a one dollar bill with the words I have a gun written on one side and this is a robbery on the other. He walks out with a lot of money and hands two large stacks of cash to Pills and Coke and celebrates with Emily over Subway.

Remi 40:42

This is actually common protocol for most banks during a robbery. If someone comes in, asks for the money and saying it's a robbery, even through a note, they are instructed to hand them the cash and not really make it into a big scene so nobody gets hurt.

Ashley 40:57

And it's all insured anyway.

Remi 41:00

And this is the most common form of bank robberies. Literally, people walking in and handing the teller a note saying, I have a gun, give me the cash.

Ashley 41:09

Later that night, James calls to ask Cherry if he robbed a bank because there's a story online, and it has a sketch that looks eerily similar to him.

Remi 41:20

It's a police sketch in the film.

Ashley 41:22

I think there might also be some video surveillance footage of him, but it's not like of his face straight on, it's kind of of him looking down. But the website had those kind of side footages and a police sketch. After this, Cherry decides it would be best to lay low for a while. Well, until he and Emily start going through withdrawal.

Tom Holland 41:52

Until the money's gone, and when the dope's gone, you get sick. At which point you need to find more money.

The Army 41:58

Go rob another fucking bag.

Remi 42:03

In the book, this is the exact cycle that they are going through. Literally, they will get high, it'll last a couple hours, and they'll need to go get more. And it just keeps on going like that, day after day after day. I cannot imagine living like this.

Ashley 42:20

Cherry repeats the same method, this time wearing sunglasses, and thanks to the teller for her cooperation.

Remi 42:27

Well, that's nice, at least he's being hospitable.

Ashley 42:30

He's a very polite bank robber.

Remi 42:32

He's even more polite in real life than he is in the film, but I'll get into that.

Ashley 42:37

Several more robberies follow, none of which is ever enough to get Cherry out of debt. During one of the runs, Pills and Coke reluctantly agrees to be the getaway driver. That night, an irate Emily storms in saying she had to leave class early. She shot herself because Cherry wasn't there at 5 p.m. as usual.

Remi 43:00

Wait, so this is implying that if she doesn't get her fix, she will defecate on herself immediately.

Ashley 43:07

So remember earlier how she said you have to come to campus at 5 because I have to stay late on Tuesdays. It was Tuesday. She was going through withdrawal so heavily that she shot herself and had to leave. Cherry comforts her by injecting her with heroin since she is too shaky to do it herself.

Remi 43:29

Something he learned how to do in the army in the book. He learned how to inject other people with morphine and things like that if they were injured.

Ashley 43:39

Okay, that would make sense, because yes, he was a medic. They didn't show that, but that tracks. Well, unfortunately, that night Emily overdoses and is rushed to the hospital. Once stabilized, her mother says if he truly loves her, he'll walk away. Cherry retreats to the parking lot to shoot up and starts violently. Violently stabbing himself in the thigh over and over and over again. With what? The needle he used to shoot up with. Oh my God. It's another like crazy performance by Tom Holland and sidebar. He actually banged his nose during the scene, so the blood on his face is real. He insisted they keep filming.

Remi 44:23

That's dedication, man. I always admire actors when they injure themselves and they finish the scene anyway. It's usually the best take.

Ashley 44:32

Emily is sent to rehab after she is discharged from the hospital. Cherry is waiting for her at the bus station when she returns and urges her to go back because he's not good for her. She refuses. She's gonna get high with or without him. So the two return home and resume life as normal. When it comes time for another robbery, Cherry tries to get James to help him for 10%. He enters the bank and immediately shoots into the ceiling, causing James to turn around and immediately flee. Cherry follows.

Remi 45:09

Wait, so he just unloaded a couple of rounds into the ceiling, his friend left, and he left too?

Ashley 45:16

He did one shot into the ceiling, James books it, and Cherry follows.

Remi 45:20

Leaving everyone in the bank staring at one another, thinking, What the fuck was that?

Ashley 45:26

And in the car, Pills and Coke agrees to swap places with James if he can get the gun. Immediately after walking into Bank Fucks America, unclear if this is the same bank or a different one, Pills and Coke fires the gun at a glass window and walks out after flipping Cherry the bird. Why? So he was getting second thoughts as they were walking in because he took a Kalana pin before, which is a benzo, because he was anxious. So I think after he fired the gun and it just shattered this window, he was just like, I'm not in the right state to do this, and walks out.

Remi 46:04

Yeah, but he flipped off Cherry on his way out. That's kind of a dick move as well.

Ashley 46:10

Cherry's yelling at him like, What the fuck are you doing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he does that. There might be another reason why he walked out, which I'll get to in a second. Either way, Cherry finishes the robbery and races back to the car as money is falling out of his pants. And despite the police already being on the way, he convinces James to go back for Pills and Coke out of fear that if he's caught, he'll rat them out. They find Pills and Coke slowly walking down the sidewalk and pull him into the car. Inside, he shows Cherry an entry gunshot wound in his stomach. There is no exit wound. Cherry briefly tells James to drive to the hospital, but James won't. He's too scared. Pills and Coke starts to fade, quietly pleading to be taken to the hospital. Cherry's quiet while James just cries and repeatedly apologizes. They dump his body under an overpass, taking his drugs, watch, shoes, and socks before driving away. We never learn how he was shot. My theory is that he shot the window and it ricocheted off something, hit him in the stomach, and that's why he left. That's really the only thing that makes sense. If he was shot by a police officer, he would have been arrested. I don't think a random bystander would have shot him and he would have just kept sauntering down. It had to have been that. Also in this scene, I get why they take the drugs and the watch, maybe even the shoes if they're nice, but his socks?

Remi 47:44

Thank you. I was going to say the exact same thing. Why the hell would you need his socks?

Ashley 47:51

And they don't show him taking his wallet, which he would want to take for identification purposes. It was really weird to me, but whatever. Drug logic again, I guess. Sometime later, Cherry wakes up on a park bench with a needle still in his arm. While walking home with Emily and their dog, he spots the same ominous black car from the opening scene. After ushering Emily inside, he asks the man if they can go somewhere else if the plan is to shoot him. The heavily tatted guy says, Why would I shoot you? That would prevent me from getting my money back. It becomes clear that this is Black, the drug dealer Cherry still owes money to. Cherry says he can't go on like this anymore, but after Emily is mentioned, he agrees to go along with the plan after he gets his fix. Inside, he lays next to an incoherent Emily and tells her Black is gonna drive him to the next job. Barely conscious, she asks if he'll shoot her up before he leaves. He covers her with a blanket and agrees to do so when he returns. Cherry drives to Credit None Bank and notices the fear in the teller's eyes once she slides him the money. He removes the scarf covering from his face and asks for a favor. Hit the silent alarm. He thanks her, walks out holding the money, throws it at Black at their designated meeting spot, fires his gun in the middle of the street, tosses it aside, and injects drugs into a vein in his foot while seated on the curb. Two cop cars pull up, but he's too high to notice.

Remi 49:36

So he had just had enough.

Ashley 49:38

I think he viewed it as his only way out. I think he saw this woman and for the first time realized like, what am I doing? I am causing so much psychological pain to all these people. I'm never gonna get out of this. I just gotta stop.

Remi 49:57

He realized he wasn't the person he wanted to be and he wasn't living the life he wanted to live.

Ashley 50:03

Epilogue 2007 to 2021. Cherry is a violently withdrawing in a holding cell. The next scenes

Ending Prison Parole And Questions

Ashley 50:14

show his daily prison routine. The passage of time is illustrated by the growing length of his hair and his participation in a drug and alcohol class, changing from one of a quiet observer to the group leader. In 2021, he's granted parole. After walking through the prison gate, he stops, twirling his wedding ring as he watches it slowly close. He's alone for a moment with nothing but his thoughts until Emily steps out of the car. And that is the Russo Brothers Cherry. What'd you think, Remy?

Remi 50:51

There was definitely a lot about this film that I had completely forgotten about, but it seems like the main focus of the story is really a love story and about addiction, and less so about his time in prison and his time in the army, while a substantial amount of the book is spent on his time in the military. I'd say 75-80% of the book is him in the army. But that is not the focus of this film, and rightfully so. I think that the focus being shifted to a love story for this really works well for the story. And from all of the clips that you showed me, it seems like the actors were all bringing their A game, but I don't know if the Russo brothers had spent just too much time making big Hollywood system type films, that they kind of overindulged in this and spent too much money, made the movie a little too long, or a little too creative with some of the things they were doing, like the bank names and the camera angles and stuff. But I think that this is a solid film, and I think it is something that people should take a second glance at. I won't reveal if it's an accurate version of the true story yet, but I do think that it is a good Hollywood version of the true story.

Ashley 52:17

I like this movie. It deals with some really, really tough subject matter, but what I do respect is one of the questions Tom Holland asked the Russo brothers is if in any way this movie was gonna glorify drug use. And the Russo brothers were like, absolutely not. And it did not. It makes opioids and heroin look as awful as they are. The performances by all of the actors in this movie are really, really impressive, very convincing. The Russo brothers, I think, did try to do a lot of artsy stuff, which is probably a consequence of them being in the Marvel Disney box for so long. There's the voiceover, there's the intro scenes against the red backdrop, there's the eerie piano music that's played throughout, there's the silly names, there's cutscenes in between cutscenes. It's a lot, so it really might not be for everyone, and it also is long. But I thought it was a good film and I enjoyed watching it again.

Remi 53:27

There is another movie that kept popping up in my mind while we were preparing for this podcast, partly because I kept accidentally calling Cherry Candy, and that is the film Candy. It is a Australian film starring Heath Ledger, and it is about a young couple who are addicted to heroin. And I think it's one of Heath Ledger's best performances he has ever done, and that is saying a lot.

Ashley 53:55

Yeah, you showed me that movie, and it is devastating.

Remi 54:00

It is truly a tearjerker. It gets me choked up every time, especially the ending. And I feel like the grounded approach that was taken in that film would serve a story like this much better than the fancy camera work and little nuances they were putting into this. This seems like it should have been a really grounded story. Like you feel like you're a fly in the wall in the room. All of the camera work and the additional stuff put in there, it's creative, but I think it takes away from this story. This should be a grounded, realistic, gritty story, and it seems like it does have a bit of that Hollywood shine. Sort of like when Peter Jackson tried to make the lovely bones. It just didn't work. He put too much of his Hollywood thing into it at that point. Too much money, too long, and it needed to be a grounded story. And I feel the same way about Cherry.

Ashley 54:59

And also all the comedic elements. I mean, you don't name a drug dealer Pills and Coke and name banks Bank Fucks America if you're not trying to at least get a chuckle.

Remi 55:10

That sort of thing just seems immature to me. I don't know anyone who's gonna see that and be like, oh, Bank Fucks America. Clever.

Ashley 55:20

So the reason why they did it is because they were trying to illustrate that this story could be anyone and could take place anywhere. So it didn't need a specific drug dealer name or a specific bank name. It is just a general problem across America, but it didn't really translate like that on screen, in my opinion.

Remi 55:41

And stuff like that is more of a distraction in the scene. The scene should be focusing on him going in and robbing the bank, but it has the audience looking at the wall and saying, Does that say bank fucks America? It's like inserting a naked gun joke in the middle of a serious drama.

Ashley 55:59

Well, let's get into the single paragraph I have about post-production.

Streaming Release And Rotten Tomatoes

Remi 56:05

Wow, that's unbelievably short.

Ashley 56:08

In September 2020, Apple TV acquired the distribution rights to Cherry for 40 million, the reported budget of the production. So this movie was released right when streaming was really replacing theaters because of the pandemic.

Remi 56:26

I know that's how we saw the film.

Ashley 56:28

It did release in Select Theaters on February 26, 2021, with a very limited theatrical release before it started streaming on March 12th. The worldwide box office gross was just 140,000. Oof. I don't think that that says anything about the movie. It was released at a time when really the big discord was our theater's dead. And this is not a movie that people are gonna be flocking to the theaters to see. And it was only in a few theaters for like two weeks. I couldn't find any information other than Box Office. So, I mean, it's really Apple TV's fault. They bought this movie when they were trying to up the amount of content they had. So it kind of was doomed to be a budget failure.

Remi 57:24

I definitely think if this film was released in pre-COVID times, it would have done a lot better than it did. And you're absolutely right. When this film came out, any movie that came out that entire year was basically doomed if it was being released in a cinema.

Ashley 57:42

Despite the Russo Brothers and Tom Holland's pride in the film, it currently has a 37% critical approval rating on Rotten Tomatoes, but a 70% won by audiences. I'm gonna go with the audiences here on that. 37% is very, very, very unfair. The critical consensus reads: It's certainly stylish and it offers Tom Holland a welcome opportunity to branch out, but Cherry's woes stem from a story that's too formulaic to bowl anyone over. And believe it or not, that's all that's available about post-production. So, Remy, it is now time. I want to know the true story behind Cherry. Who is Nigo Walker? What happened to him, and why in the hell did he write this book?

Nico Walker Early Life Enlistment

Remi 58:36

All right, from prison manuscript to $40 million Russo Brothers production. Let's get into the truth of it. Nicholas Nico Walker was born April nineteenth, nineteen eighty-five in Cleveland, Ohio.

Ashley 59:06

Wow, he is young.

Remi 59:08

Yeah, younger than me. His mother, Liliana Dalfara Walker, was born in nineteen fifty-seven in occupied Saarland, Germany, or possibly Alsace, depending on the source. Her biological father, Vittorio Dalfara, died of throat cancer in Paris when she was still a baby. Her mother Erna later remarried an American army sergeant named Jack, so Liliana spent much of her childhood as an army brat. After college and spending some time living in New York City, Liliana eventually settled in Atlanta, where she met Nico's father, Tim Walker. The two got married and later moved to Cleveland, where they raised three sons together, with Nico being the youngest. Tim Walker eventually became very successful supplying parts to the nuclear industry, and the family became financially very well off. Nico grew up in wealthy suburbs, attended private schools, and by most accounts had a very stable upbringing. Walker was also heavily into music from a young age. His parents bought him guitars and eventually even a Steinway baby grand piano, after realizing how talented he was musically.

Ashley 1:00:24

Oh my god, they bought him a baby grand piano. One, that is a lot of money. Two, that takes up a lot of space.

Remi 1:00:33

And I also just want to point out that the song that played at the beginning of my section is from Nico's band. Nico was especially close with his maternal grandfather, who had been an infantry veteran during World War II, and that relationship reportedly became a major influence on Walker's fascination with war and military service later in life. Walker attended John Carroll University, but during his first year there he became increasingly obsessed with the Iraq war. According to Walker, he grew frustrated with civilian life while constantly seeing stories about wounded and disfigured young soldiers returning home from Iraq.

Ashley 1:01:14

Man, it's like Edward Snowden.

Remi 1:01:17

There are a lot of similarities at the beginning here, but the similarities end pretty quickly. Walker later enlisted because he quote wanted to help people. At 19 years old, despite his parents being strongly against it, he dropped out of college and joined the U.S. Army. Before deployment, Walker quietly eloped with his girlfriend Kara.

Ashley 1:01:41

And it is reported everywhere that Emily is based on Kara Walker.

Remi 1:01:46

In February 2005, Nico shipped out to basic training at Fort Leonard Wood. On November 28th, 2005, Walker left for Kuwait and roughly two weeks later arrived in Iraq at just 19 years old.

Ashley 1:02:02

It's crazy to think about that when the US was at the height of the war with the Middle East, that most of the people on the front lines there were between the ages of like 19 and 23.

Remi 1:02:16

It's where the Army gets most of their new recruits. Walker served as a combat medic during Operation Iraqi Freedom with the 167th Armored Regime, 4th Infantry Division, a unit that referred to themselves as the Death Dealers. Most of his deployment took place south of Baghdad in the area known as the Triangle of Death, which was considered one of the deadliest regions in Iraq at the time.

Ashley 1:02:57

Similar to the movie.

Remi 1:02:59

Over the course of roughly a year, Walker participated in around 250

Real Iraq Deployment As Combat Medic

Remi 1:03:04

combat missions, which is an unusually high number even for infantry soldiers, let alone a medic. According to multiple soldiers from his unit, infantry platoons specifically requested Walker on dangerous missions because they trusted him and believed he was exceptionally good at his job. Early in deployment, another medic was wounded and sent home, leaving Walker as the sole medic responsible for roughly 100 soldiers across two platoons.

Ashley 1:03:35

Wow, that is a lot of pressure for a 19-year-old child.

Remi 1:03:40

And I also want to point out that in the book Cherry, which is, I know, loosely based on his experiences, basically all he knew how to do was give people morphine to temporarily stop the pain and maybe bandage a wound. Beyond that, he said he did not know how to do anything else.

Ashley 1:03:59

And I know you have said this to me off mic a couple times about how the book is, what did you say, like 80% about his time in the military?

Remi 1:04:09

It spends a long time in the military.

Ashley 1:04:12

I understand why. This clearly played a huge role on his life and the person he became and is something that changed him.

Remi 1:04:24

Walker later described constantly leaving the wire, sometimes up to three times a day, and occasionally remaining outside the base for nearly a week at a time, conducting patrols, raids, reconnaissance missions, and responding to bombings. Leaving the wire means leaving base, basically. A massive part of his deployment involved IEDs. Walker became so familiar with explosions that he later claimed he could distinguish between near misses and direct hits entirely by sound. A missed blast sounded sharp and cracking. A direct hit made what he described as a heavy womp sound.

Ashley 1:05:15

Okay, yeah, the first one kind of sounds like heavy gravel hitting a car window, with the second one having a distinct sound of metal on metal.

Remi 1:05:27

Much of Walker's job involved recovering bodies after bombings. In one especially traumatic incident in April 2006, Walker responded to a destroyed vehicle and helped recover severely burned remains from inside. He later described melted intestines, faces burned completely away, and strips of human fat stuck to the inside of the vehicle. Walker later referred to the entire experience as moral anti-gravity.

Ashley 1:05:57

This is clearly the scene in the Movie where Jimenez and several of Cherry's other comrades get bombed by the IUD and he is carrying the bodies out and he has to stop because his gloves are being burned because the bodies are so hot.

Remi 1:06:18

Another incident that reportedly haunted Walker involved an Iraqi man, his unit shot before dawn after the man ran from them in a field. Walker attempted to save him after he was hit, but the man eventually died.

Ashley 1:06:33

Jesus Christ. Just like one traumatic experience after another.

Remi 1:06:39

Two things I have always said that I never want to experience in life is war and prison.

Ashley 1:06:47

And Nico Walker experiences both.

Remi 1:06:50

While Walker's unit was attempting to recover the body, family members appeared, screaming while the soldiers came under AK-47 fire. Walker dragged the body through a sewage canal while bullets were coming in, and during the chaos an elderly Iraqi woman was killed. Walker later said that the incident stayed with him more than almost anything else from Iraq because the man had been unarmed. By mid-2006, Walker reportedly believed he probably would not survive deployment. During leave in June 2006, he told his father how bad conditions had become, and even discussed where he wanted to be buried if he died in Iraq. As deployment continued, Walker became increasingly numb to the danger. Mortar attacks became so routine that he often slept through them simply by pulling blankets over his head. For his service in Iraq, Walker ultimately received seven medals and accommodations. And I also just want to point out because I thought I had included it in my notes, but apparently didn't. Cherry is actually a name given to new recruits in the army. They're people who have just arrived after basic training and they're referred to as cherries. In the book, Nico Walker's character has no name. He is never referred to by name. But in the movie, for some reason, they made his name Cherry. Interesting choice.

Ashley 1:08:25

It is interesting because in the movie, his time in the army is such a small part of the overall film. It's maybe over by the first 40 or 50 minutes, and a lot of that at the beginning is even before he enters the army. And yet it's the name of the film and the name of his character. It is illustrated that his drug addiction is caused by untreated PTSD from the army, but all of the overall army scenes are not as heavy as a focus as it is in the book.

Remi 1:09:03

They're very truncated in the film, the entire army experience. And the book spends so much time with him in the army. And I must say, I was not really into the sections of the book where he was in the army.

Ashley 1:09:18

Do you think you would have had a different experience reading the book if you were reading this for pleasure, like the Russo brothers, versus for a podcast research?

Remi 1:09:28

I definitely think that I would. I was expecting the book to play out similarly to the film where the army was maybe just a couple of chapters. However, in retrospect, these are the experiences that shaped who he was when he came back. And I do think it's a bit of a disservice to gloss over the army section in the film like that. Like him being in the army is why he became the person he was and did the things he did. These experiences that he went through in the army were the most impactful experiences that he went through. Beyond the robberies, beyond the drug addictions, this time in his life was by far the most traumatic for him.

Ashley 1:10:19

Understandably so. They're in literal hell.

Remi 1:10:23

Walker returned home from Iraq in late 2006, but still had several

Misdiagnosis Risk Taking Heroin

Remi 1:10:28

months remaining on his military obligation and remained in Texas before finally returning to Ohio in March 2007. I didn't realize this was a thing. It's sort of like a halfway house in between getting out of military life.

Ashley 1:10:44

They should be receiving a lot of care during this time. They should be receiving case management services, being hooked up with their vet benefits, being given job training, crafting a resume. They should also be expected to undergo therapy. They need a lot more services than they are getting. I will say the VA system is very robust, but it's like any healthcare system. You have to know how to navigate it. You have to be motivated to navigate it.

Remi 1:11:19

Returning to our story, not long after coming back home, Cora divorced Nico.

Ashley 1:11:25

Wait, what?

Remi 1:11:27

Yep, like right away as soon as he got back.

Ashley 1:11:29

So she's not with him through the throes of his addiction and robberies?

Remi 1:11:33

She comes back. But they are divorced at this point. Walker attempted to reintegrate into civilian life by going back to school, played music with his band Safari, whom you heard at the beginning of my segment, and growing his hair out, but according to the people around him, Iraq had already profoundly changed him. His mother, Liliana, noticed the change in him immediately. The military had given the family a pamphlet titled Homecoming After Deployment Tips for Reunion, which she later described as essentially useless, leading her to begin researching PTSD and reading books on the subject herself. Walker was also suffering from extreme insomnia and recurring nightmares. One recurring nightmare involved insurgents executing one of his friends before eventually killing him as well. And Walker later claimed that there was a period where he stayed awake for twenty one consecutive days.

Ashley 1:12:39

Um that's physically impossible, so I'm going to conclude that Walker was at least getting some sort of cat naps here and then.

Remi 1:12:48

Agreed. I think the record is something like seven days, so he was probably passing out every now and again, but not getting enough sleep to sustain him regularly. And by summer two thousand seven, Walker had begun taking oxycottin in order to sleep. Around this same period, he enrolled at Cleveland State University and briefly reconciled with Kara in 2008, but according to the people around him, his condition continued to deteriorate. During nightmares, Walker would scream, thrash violently, and sometimes even struck Kara in his sleep. Walker also became consumed with guilt over a young soldier in Iraq whose bloody nose he had dismissed shortly before the soldier was killed in an explosion later that same day. Walker later stated that after returning from Iraq, he constantly entered rooms automatically thinking about how he would kill everyone inside if necessary. Well, they have a pamphlet for that. Eventually, Walker sought treatment through the VA system. Doctors prescribed antidepressants, but according to later psychiatric evaluations, he never really received consistent PTSD treatment.

Ashley 1:14:15

And what I will say, any treatment for anxiety or depression is very different from PTSD treatment. Both can involve a combination of medication and talk therapy, but there are several very specific evidence-based treatments for people with PTSD that involve a skilled clinician really walking the person through in a safe environment their traumatic experiences. And it is a combination of this talk therapy and medication as appropriate that helps someone with PTSD. Prescribing someone oxycontin who is clearly having PTSD symptoms is going to do them no good.

Remi 1:15:04

Well, funny you should mention that. One psychiatrist diagnosed him with anxiety disorder, while another diagnosed him with bipolar disorder instead of PTSD. Walker later claimed the psychiatrist barely listened to him and mostly just checked boxes during his appointments. As Walker's mental state continued deteriorating, his behavior became increasingly reckless and self-destructive. He reportedly drove over 120 miles per hour, intentionally ran red lights, drove on the wrong side of the road, and regularly extinguished cigarettes on his own arms. So a lot of classic risk-taking behavior going on with Nico.

Ashley 1:15:52

Yeah, he doesn't care at this point. He doesn't care what happens to him.

Remi 1:15:56

In fall of 2007, Walker injected heroin for the first time. In September 2008, Liliana took Walker on a trip to Washington, D.C., where during dinner at a bar, Walker reportedly became enraged after overhearing a Marine loudly bragging about Iraq.

Ashley 1:16:16

I wonder if this is supposed to be the scene where he's freaking out in the theater.

Remi 1:16:21

I 100% think that it is. It's clear that in the film they swapped out Nico's mother for Emily, but they kept Nico's mother's influence in him with the whole being upset about the man's dress code at the theater. So it seems like they were combining a couple of different aspects from his life into one while also making the love story more cohesive and front and center.

Ashley 1:16:52

They wanted something else to focus on other than a single character who's going through turmoil through the whole movie.

Remi 1:17:00

I do think it's interesting that they chose not to put Nico's mother or father in the film, but it especially seems that his mother had a really, really powerful influence on him and how he saw the world.

Ashley 1:17:15

I'm also surprised they don't even mention his parents at all. The only time they are mentioned is when he is in Iraq and Emily calls him and said, Your parents are buying us a house. Otherwise, they're not mentioned ever. We have a scene with Emily's parents when she had overdose at the hospital.

Remi 1:17:34

Nico's mother was definitely the closest relationship that he had in his life at the time, and it is strange that it is omitted. Around this same period, Walker's behavior became increasingly erratic and violent. Safari bandmate Chris Hoke later described him as totally out of control, and by late 2008, Walker was deeply addicted to heroin. Safari eventually broke up because the other band members no longer believed he was capable of continuing with the group. In spring twenty ten, the Walker family traveled to rural Italy for a vacation. During heroin withdrawal, Walker hallucinated what he described as Filipino pirates surrounding him with knives, while Liliana physically held him in a bathtub as he went through withdrawal symptoms. In July 2010, another psychiatrist again noted signs of PTSD. The following month, Walker met with a substance abuse specialist at the University of Ohio, although accounts suggest the meeting itself went poorly. By late 2010, Walker had become obsessed with watching Iraq combat footage and memorial videos on YouTube. He later admitted that there was even a night where he was sitting around high on heroin, holding a pistol while watching Don't Forget the Lyrics and seriously contemplated suicide. On December 10th, 2010, Walker woke up already knowing he was

Robbery Spree Chase Arrest Sentence

Remi 1:19:17

going to rob a bank that day.

Ashley 1:19:19

Wait, why? He wasn't in debt to a drug dealer for stealing drugs. He just woke up and said, It's winter and it smells like a good day to rob a bank.

Remi 1:19:29

I would assume that the rapidly escalating addiction that he was going through definitely played a part in this decision making. But like I said at the beginning of my section, he came from a family that was well off, and a loving mother who probably would have been more than glad to give him some money if he needed it. So this was much more his choice than a situational choice for him.

Ashley 1:19:59

And so he's not doing this for the money, he's just doing it to basically feel something?

Remi 1:20:06

To feel alive. He's doing it for the sensation it gives him. Like an adrenaline rush or something like that.

Ashley 1:20:13

And that's because emotional numbing is a symptom of PTSD. So he normally feels nothing, and doing this reckless behavior causes him to feel something.

Remi 1:20:23

According to Walker, bank robbery felt psychologically similar to combat in Iraq. He later compared handing a teller a robbery note to what he called the bang in combat, which is the moment after violence begins when all the tension suddenly disappears and gets replaced with a strange sense of calm. Walker's first robbery targeted a Huntington bank. He passed the teller a note claiming he was armed and walked out with $1,998. Walker later described the feeling afterwards as giddy. Between December 2010 and April 2011, Walker robbed 10 banks around Cleveland, with an 11th attempted robbery ending unsuccessfully. Some of the robberies appeared to be almost entirely impulsive. In one instance, Walker robbed a bank while waiting to pick up Cara from school, and another time, he decided to rob a nearby bank just while he had stopped for gas. As the robberies continued and Walker sank deeper into heroin addiction, he became increasingly involved with criminals and drug dealers around Cleveland, eventually bringing accomplices into several of the robberies. In total, five of the robberies involved other people. Most of the early robberies involved Walker simply passing demand notes and taking money, but the crimes gradually escalated over time. During one robbery, Walker reportedly threatened a teller by saying, Faster before I have to come back there and do it myself.

Ashley 1:22:15

This is depicted in the film during one of the robberies. A teller gives him money and he counts it and he's like, That's it. And she's like, That's all I got. And he's like, Bullshit, no, it's not. So he basically accosts her until she gives him more.

Remi 1:22:32

Well, here is something that I don't think is depicted in the film. Only two of the robberies involved a firearm.

Ashley 1:22:41

Most of the robberies in the film didn't involve a firearm. It was really only the ones that he did bring accomplices with that showed them. I don't know the exact amount, but it is shown that most of them he does not have a gun. It's kind of as it's later down the line and he's getting more desperate because the severity of his withdrawals are increasing.

Remi 1:23:05

Walker repeatedly emphasized that no shots were ever fired during any of the robberies, and that nobody was physically harmed. And I just want to point out that in the book, he uses guns very regularly in his robberies, but again, he never fires them. They're just used to threaten people and for intimidation. According to investigators and interviews conducted after his arrest, Walker gave away large amounts of the stolen money to drug dealers, addicts, and friends. Because as we have discussed, he didn't really need this money. He also admitted that at times he literally burned stolen cash in his kitchen sink.

Ashley 1:23:49

Honestly, I think in the back of his mind, he is begging to be caught.

Remi 1:24:19

Walker approached teller Rosa Foster, who was pregnant at the time, briefly pointing the gun at her through the glass and demanding money. Foster handed over $7,426 in cash. Walker then fled the scene in a black Ford F-150.

Jim Rome 1:24:40

Eric in Riverside said, I got a bee for my five-year-old who won't eat her chicken nuggets. And I'm like, who under the age of eight has anything against a chicken nugget?

Remi 1:24:49

During the getaway, Walker listened to the Jim Rome show while attempting to change clothes inside the truck to avoid being identified.

Ashley 1:24:58

I would expect some very intense Screamo music to be playing, maybe even something from this guy's band.

Remi 1:25:06

Nico is clearly a sports fan. Maybe he was trying to get the latest scores on a few games or something on his way home from the robbery.

Ashley 1:25:15

That guy was talking about chicken nuggets.

Remi 1:25:18

Yeah, maybe that wasn't the best clip for me to pick as a representation of the Jim Rome show, but I just found that clip personally amusing. Walker believed multiple police departments were already watching for him before he even left the bank that morning, which would explain why several police cruisers were already trailing him shortly after the robbery. The police pursued Walker through heavy traffic near Legacy Village as he swerved through intersections, collided with multiple vehicles, drove across parking lots, and eventually launched the truck off an embankment near a Burger King while attempting to escape and breaking his back in the process. The police ultimately surrounded Walker at gunpoint and arrested him at the scene. Federal prosecutor Art Hernandez later described Walker as one of the most prolific solo bank robbers in Ohio history. After his arrest, Walker spent time in the regional jail in Youngstown awaiting trial. According to Walker, his parents were among the only people who consistently came to visit him during this time. As the case moved forward, psychiatrists Pablo Stewart and John Fabian evaluated Walker and both concluded that he was suffering from severe PTSD connected to his combat experience in Iraq. Fabian administered the CAPS PTSD assessment.

Ashley 1:27:18

The caps.

Remi 1:27:19

Do you know what that stands for?

Ashley 1:27:21

Not off the top of my head, but it's a standardized questionnaire that includes all of the criteria for PTSD as well as a generalized background interview. It's very comprehensive.

Remi 1:27:36

Well, Walker scored a 101 on his CAPS PTSD assessment. And for comparison, a score of 65 is considered the clinical threshold for PTSD.

Ashley 1:27:52

Typically, hearing about a case like this where someone was robbing banks and tried to claim PTSD, my alarm. Alarm radars would be going off as this is bullshit. But after hearing this guy's case, I do truly think PTSD did have some sort of involvement. He wasn't robbing banks because he wanted money. He was robbing banks because he could see no other way to deal with his PTSD symptoms, and this is the only thing that caused him to feel something.

Remi 1:28:26

Well, his psychiatrist, Pablo Stewart, described Walker's condition as one of the worst PTSD cases he had ever personally encountered. Despite these expert opinions, if Walker lost at trial, the firearm charges alone would trigger a mandatory 32-year sentence, leading Walker to ultimately accept a plea agreement instead.

Ashley 1:28:54

I think that's wise. I don't think any jury would have been sympathetic to a PTSD defense. People just don't understand, and this is very nuanced. And in the end, he made the decision to rob these banks. He knew what he was doing, he knew what he was doing was wrong.

Remi 1:29:11

On June 1st, 2012, Walker appeared in federal court for sentencing, where he publicly apologized to the bank tellers, employees, drivers, passengers, and even family members who were affected by his crimes. The judge ultimately sentenced Walker to 11 years in federal prison. Following the sentencing, prosecutor Art Hernandez, who was also an Iraq war veteran, visited Walker in prison and spoke to him soldier to soldier. According to Walker, Hernandez told him he believed Walker was fundamentally a good person, and encouraged him to not give up on his life. Walker served his sentence at the Federal Correctional Institution in Ashland, Kentucky. During his years in prison, Walker worked as a GED tutor for other inmates, studied Latin, listened heavily to classical music, and read books like War and Peace. Walker also began writing seriously while incarcerated, and wrote his debut

Prison Writing BuzzFeed Book Deal

Remi 1:30:17

novel on a typewriter. Throughout this time, his mother, Liliana, regularly mailed him books, dictionaries, Latin texts, works by James Joyce and William Blake, along with detective novels by Philip Kerr. In 2013, BuzzFeed published a major profile on Walker while he was still incarcerated in federal prison. And this article is actually one of the primary resources I used to research for this episode, and it's very informative. The BuzzFeed article ended up dramatically changing the course of his life after it caught the attention of Matthew Johnson, co-owner of Tyrant Books.

Ashley 1:31:02

Wait, how did BuzzFeed even learn about Nico Walker?

Remi 1:31:07

I assume that initial interest came from his notoriety as a bank robber. Matthew Johnson from Tyrant Books began corresponding with Walker in prison and encouraged him to take writing seriously and began regularly mailing him books. Over the next several years, Walker began writing what would eventually become Cherry, repeatedly rewriting and revising the manuscript over the course of nearly four years.

Nico Walker 1:31:42

It was something that he was doing, you know, was locked up something as something that didn't play. You know, one of the great things about being in prison for some reason.

Remi 1:32:03

Originally, Matthew Johnson did intend to publish the novel through tyrant books, but the manuscript eventually attracted major industry attention and instead was sold to Alfred A. Knopf. So Matthew Johnson was really the man who made Cherry into a thing. He was the person who encouraged Nico to write his story down, and he was the one who got it out there and got the press's attention as well. So this man, Matthew Johnson, read this Buzzfeed article, said this guy sounds interesting, and started a relationship with him that led to the book Cherry.

Ashley 1:32:47

This is so wild. Just, oh, you have an interesting story?

Remi 1:32:51

It is impressive that his story caught this much attention. I would imagine there are a lot of inmates who have written their stories out and never got this kind of acknowledgement. So Nico's story is very unusual in that regard. And Cherry became a major success and reached number fourteen on the New York Times bestseller list while Walker was still incarcerated. Walker also stated that he used money earned from the novel to help repay restitution connected to the bank robberies. The novel was additionally shortlisted for the 2019 Hemingway Foundation Penn Award. Walker was released from federal prison in October 2019 after serving roughly eight and a half years, followed by six months in a halfway house. Part of the reason Walker received compassionate early release was because his mother, Liliana, was dying from leukemia. Following his release, Walker was sent to a halfway house in Topello, Mississippi, while attempting to rebuild his life outside of prison.

Nico Walker 1:34:07

So my manager, uh, you know, Matthew Johnson, he lived in Oxford, uh, Mississippi. Uh he's got, you know, he's got this record label Fat Possum down here. So, you know, the idea was, you know, when I was in the halfway house, uh, I you know, I could work at the record label because you have to have a job and whatnot. So it was, you know, while I was in the halfway house, I was working there.

Remi 1:34:39

What complicated things further was the fact that Liliana's condition became significantly worse. In addition to leukemia, she reportedly contracted Legionnaires disease while hospitalized and suffered severe neurological decline along with extremely high fevers. According to accounts from the family, Tim Walker, Liliana's husband, stayed beside his wife's hospital bed for weeks and rarely left the room. Nico was with his mother when she died on February 12, 2020. Almost immediately afterwards, the COVID-19 pandemic began sweeping across the globe. Funeral plans were repeatedly disrupted and delayed by lockdown restrictions, and Liliana ultimately never received a normal funeral service. As COVID lockdowns spread across Mississippi in 2020, Walker was also released from the halfway house earlier than expected as authorities attempted to reduce crowding throughout the prison system.

Ashley 1:35:48

This is another example of the system failing Nico Walker here. He is being released from a 11-year prison sentence. His mom, his primary support system, dies suddenly. He is in a halfway house and he gets released early into the COVID-19 pandemic.

Remi 1:36:10

Could you imagine being locked up for eight years, not the full 11? But coming out after that amount of time behind bars, and you just walk straight into the COVID-19 pandemic?

Ashley 1:36:23

What is he supposed to do?

Remi 1:36:26

Well, I do have to say something good did come of this because during the COVID lockdowns in April of 2020, poet Rachel Rabbit White ended up stranded near Walker in Mississippi after New York shut down shortly after she had traveled there. According to Walker, the two quarantined together for forty-seven days during lockdown, and he eventually summarized the outcome by simply saying, We are married now. And here is a brief clip of Nico's wedding vows to Rachel.

Nico Walker 1:37:06

The best thing that I could say about it is that it wasn't wasted because I was waiting on you. Everything was so dull before you. I can't explain it. Okay, you can't tell me.

Ashley 1:37:37

Nico Walker is high as fuck during these vows.

Remi 1:37:41

He is absolutely on heroin in this clip, unfortunately. This was after his mother's passing, and as I'll get into in just a moment, he did end up relapsing after his mother died. Not long afterwards, Walker became involved in what he described as a hospital

Release Grief Relapse Rehab Marriage

Remi 1:38:04

and police incident connected to his continued struggles adjusting to life after prison. Rather than sending him back to federal prison, Walker's parole officer instead ordered him into a rehab in Clarksdale, Mississippi in June of 2020. After leaving rehab, Walker donated money to a battered woman's shelter in honor of his mother, describing it as the funeral he never properly gave her because of the COVID-19 restrictions. Walker eventually settled in Oxford, Mississippi, and as of January 2022, he has reportedly been working on a second novel focused on incarceration and prison life.

Nico Walker 1:38:53

Yeah, I'm writing a book. I've been up to doing a lot of stuff, you know. I've been doing a lot of things. I got married, I've been I've moved a couple times, you know, other things have happened that are just, you know, I don't know. Fucking I was in a coma, went to rehab, I don't know. You know, my mom died, and it's like but somehow I've like managed to write, you know, hundreds of pages of stuff, and it's just so I'm at that part where you're just trying to turn it into something that's like that holds together as one one thing.

Remi 1:39:29

And that was the Russo Brothers Cherry. Do you have any initial reactions before we jump into our other portions of the podcast?

Ashley 1:39:41

The episode actually reminds me of an episode we did, I think last season about Pamela Smart. It was to Die For, the movie featuring Nicole Kidnan.

Remi 1:39:52

Yes, because the book was based off of Pamela Smart, but it wasn't directly retelling the story of her.

Ashley 1:40:02

In that case, I actually opted to not read the novel that the movie was based on because Pamela Smart is such a huge case. There was plentiful information otherwise. I definitely do not think I needed to read the novel to die for. So what I am curious is, Remy, you've told us the true story about

Adaptation Verdict Fight And Objections

Ashley 1:40:25

Nigo Walker. How true is the movie to the book that you read?

Remi 1:40:30

The movie is definitely based on the book and not the true story. Though I must add that the true story is not that far off from what is depicted in the book. The main difference that sticks out to me is the stuff with his girlfriend or his wife that he married before deploying. In the book, she is a pretty major character. However, it is not the loving romance that is depicted in the film. In the book, they get into a ton of arguments. In the book, he thinks that she is cheating on him all the time. So she is a bigger character in the book, but it definitely does not have this true love angle to it. In reality, Kara, who this Emily character is based on, was not a huge factor in Nico's life. But I do think that having that core relationship in the story is greatly beneficial to this story. I think that the focus in on the relationship and that being a driving force in his life is a smart decision, but it is not accurate.

Ashley 1:41:48

I definitely can see that they combined aspects of his relationship with Kara and his mom.

Remi 1:41:55

If anything, in real life, his mother was the biggest female influence on his life.

Ashley 1:42:02

The other question I have is the drastic difference of the motivation of the robberies. In the book, he starts the robberies because he is in significant debt to a very dangerous drug dealer. In real life, he starts robbing banks.

Remi 1:42:20

Just to feel alive.

Ashley 1:42:22

That is a huge difference.

Remi 1:42:25

And I fully understand why that change was made. It is more difficult for people to relate to someone who is just doing something to feel something than it is to relate to someone who has an actual motivation behind it. All of his struggles seem to really be internal and they were not related to these external things. He had money, he had a family, he could have had a wife, he could have had all of these things, but he just was so self-destructive. And I think that's very difficult to capture on screen and make it relatable.

Ashley 1:43:05

I mean, in real life, this guy was robbing banks and then going home and burning money in the sink because he didn't care about the money. He was just trying to feel something, which I do agree, it is a very hard sell to have a random person on the street understand what this person was feeling and how much psychological pain they were feeling.

Remi 1:43:29

And I think he knew that as well. In the story that he wrote, it was motivated by drug addiction and needing money and owing money. It was slightly different in the film, but I think even Nico realized that this is not something that people can relate to, just needing to feel something, anything, and resorting to these extreme measures. So making it an addiction or making it for love is something that I think that's a wise storytelling move.

Ashley 1:44:05

So since you read the book, how closely is the movie to the actual novel? Are you saying guilty, not guilty, or a mistrial from the original source material?

Remi 1:44:16

Okay, if I were to give a verdict to the adaptation from book to movie, I would give this a mistrial. I think that the film definitely is much more sanitized in a lot of ways than the book version. But again, I guess the book version is a more sanitized version of the real events.

Ashley 1:44:42

That begs the next question. Based on the movie to the true story, which is not the novel, what's your verdict?

Verdict 1:44:50

At the conclusion of each episode, our hosts will deliver a verdict based on the film's accuracy. If the film is an honest portrayal of the events, then it will earn a not guilty verdict. If the adaptation is mostly factual, but creative liberties were taken for the sake of entertainment, the film will be declared a mistrial. But if the film ultimately strays too far from the truth, then it will be condemned as guilty and sentenced to a life behind bars.

Ashley 1:45:18

I will interject saying we are still going to do our objection of the week, but because we are already in a heated debate about the objection, it just makes sense to do it right now.

Remi 1:45:30

So being put on the spot here, giving my verdict for the true story versus the film version, they do have a lot of the framework. I mean, it is the story, but God, so much is changed. I I'm gonna give this one a verdict of barely a guilty. It's barely a guilty on the side of mistrial. I think that all of the stories are very close to what Nico Walker actually experienced, but through each interpretation, the story shifts a little bit to make the narration more palatable. And in the end, it's kind of like a game of telephone where you're whispering in someone's ear and they're telling you something, and they're telling you something. And then by the end, it's, you know, it sounds like the same word, but it's not the same word. That's kind of how I feel about this film. It's kind of the same story, but it's not really the same story at the same time.

Ashley 1:46:32

So I agree with your guilty verdict, except this is not a barely guilty verdict for me. This is a very clear, obvious guilty verdict. Sure, it is a army vet who robbed banks.

Remi 1:46:49

All the framework of the story is there. I'm tempted to tip this back into the mistrial category, but all of the main stuff is there. Just the characters and the motivation are different.

Ashley 1:47:01

And by the framework, you're saying it is a military veteran who got addicted to heroin and rob banks. Other than that, what similarities are there? Emily doesn't exist. I mean, she does, but their relationship ends so early. His mom is not in the movie at all, other than a quick cutout scene where he asks her for money and she says no. He starts robbing banks because he is in debt from impulsively doing a safe load of drugs, and that's the whole reason he starts robbing banks. In the real life story, it is because he was so psychologically disturbed that he was just looking to feel something. To me, that is a substantial difference from the real life story, and I take notes as I'm going through and hearing the true story from the movie. I'll read you the similarities. Medic, Triangle of Death. That's basically all I got.

Remi 1:48:06

He robbed banks. You have to have bank robber on there at least and addicted the heroine.

Ashley 1:48:12

I don't think that's enough to even push me into a mistrial. This is a guilty verdict for me. No question, guilty.

Remi 1:48:22

And I am giving this film a guilty verdict as well, but I think you're being kind of harsh. In this situation, the story is there, but they changed all the motivations. They changed characters. I don't think it's as guilty as you're giving it. As a matter of fact, you know what? I'm switching mine to a mistrial. Not that it makes any lick of difference at this point, but you have convinced me after reconsidering the evidence and looking it over again, I'm changing my vote to a mistrial.

Ashley 1:48:54

Too much was changed from the original story to pass it off as a reliable account of the event.

Remi 1:49:03

I do want to just point out to our audiences that it is about midnight when we are recording this, and usually we record this much earlier in the day. And this is probably the most heated debate we've ever had on a verdict.

Ashley 1:49:17

There has been a couple other episodes where our verdicts have drastically differed. And so, summarizing this conversation, you changed your barely guilty verdict to Mistraw.

Remi 1:49:31

Exactly. It's just like 12 angry men. You convinced me to change my vote. And I just gotta admit, I've never seen 12 Angry Men.

Ashley 1:49:40

It's a really good movie. So, what I say is we table this conversation and duke it out in the future because we really do need to figure out what our criteria is for each of these categories. And with that, let's scroll back and go to our objection of the week.

Cherry 1:49:59

You're right!

Verdict 1:50:00

I object! And why is that, Mr. Eden? Because it's devastating to my case! Overrule. Good call!

Ashley 1:50:07

Alright, Remy, because I threw you off with the surprise verdict before the objection, I will take the lead on this portion. My objection is that in the movie, Cherry had no band, no musical talent, nothing. It seemed like in the book and the real life story, music was a very big portion of his life. He had a band. It would have been super easy to just have a even a single scene of Cherry sitting there strumming on a guitar.

Remi 1:50:38

Alright, it's time for my rebuttal. There were a lot of little things that I could have picked. For one, he never mentions Ecstasy in the book or in any of the research, despite meeting Emily on Ecstasy in the film. He does a lot of drugs and mentions them all by name. Ecstasy was never one of them. Another one would be that nobody jumps out of a car and, you know, randomly dies in the book or in real life. And in the movie, it seems like he didn't do any drugs in the army, which in the book it seems like that's where his problem actually started. However, none of those compare to my ultimate objection, which is the title of the film itself, Cherry. In the book, his character has no name. In real life, his name is Nico. In the book, and in I guess reality, Cherry means a new recruit, someone who has just gotten in from basic training. In the movie, his name is Cherry. Has anybody ever met a man named Cherry? I would bet not. So that is my objection. Why not name Emily Cherry? Why would you have Tom Holland's character be named Cherry? That's ridiculous.

Ashley 1:52:02

I have a rebuttal for that. Cherry's life was pretty stable until he enlisted in the army. And I think that is kind of when his life started to spiral.

Remi 1:52:17

You are giving the Russo brothers too much credit on this one.

Ashley 1:52:22

The Russo brothers also named Banks Bank Fuck America and like credit bomb. And they named a drug dealer as Pills and Coke, and they named the psychiatrist as Doctor Womever.

Remi 1:52:37

And you're proving my point that they're really bad at picking names for things. They should not have called Tom Holland's character Cherry. It's a love story. He was doing a lot of his stuff motivated by love for Emily. Why not have Emily's name be Cherry? Like, why would you not do that instead of having him be Nico?

Ashley 1:52:59

Because they were going off the title of the book, and you said in the book he had no name. I under the name Cherry. I understand your point. I think mine is better. They could have given him a scene where he was strumming away on a guitar and they didn't.

Remi 1:53:16

I will let our audience decide which one of us is correct in this instance because I think that naming the character Cherry is a way more useless change. Again, for anyone who's not familiar with how the objections work, we're not objecting to like the biggest change. We're objecting to the most like unnecessary, stupid. Like, why would you even do that? That doesn't really help anything.

Ashley 1:53:42

So your solution would have been to just have your title character for two and a half hours, Tom Holland, have no name? No, I'd have him be named Nico. And I'd have Emily be named Cherry. I would also have Cherry just sit strung out on drugs, strumming on a guitar, because he likes music.

Remi 1:54:05

That's an omission. That's like saying you didn't show someone's yo-yoing hobby in a movie. It's not a fig thing to like include. It's just like a side thing.

Ashley 1:54:16

You're right.

Remi 1:54:17

Mine's more of a major change.

Ashley 1:54:19

Pause Remy. You just said your selection was more of a major thing. And you said mine was a small omission. So by the definition of objection of the week, who wins?

Remi 1:54:36

I think changing the whole meaning behind Cherry into a character's name because no one is named Cherry. No one is named Pills and Dope or whatever his name was. No bank is Banks Fuck America. They made a dumb choice. They named him Cherry. That was dumb. That's my objection.

Ashley 1:54:54

And you think changing the whole name of the whole movie is a smaller change than just having Cherry play the guitar in one scene? But I guess we will just agree to disagree in this. What would be the smaller change? Changing the name of the book and the title character, or having him play guitar in a scene. We will revisit this later.

Remi 1:55:23

All of our objections are usually over in like three minutes. Because I am very so passionate about this movie and the true story. Clearly, this was impactful because we are very driven to get our points across.

Ashley 1:55:38

So we will just choose to agree and disagree, and maybe we will revisit it in the future.

Remi 1:55:45

Alright, it's late. We have had a couple drinks. I think it's time to take this podcast home. What do we have on the horizon two weeks from now, Ashley?

Ashley 1:55:57

We are covering

Next Case The Conjuring Tease

Ashley 1:55:58

the conjuring. A case with actually the first and I think only case in the United States where a murder occurred and someone tried to claim self-defense by devil possession.

Remi 1:56:18

Yeah, he said the devil made him do it. I saw this movie way back when it came out in theaters. I remember being pretty bored in the theater when I watched it, but I am pretty familiar with the real case in this instance. So I look forward to our discussion. Will it be as impassioned as our carry discussion was tonight? Who knows? But I think it will be a good chat, regardless.

Ashley 1:56:46

It's actually funny because I'm pretty sure the Warrens were also involved in the Amityville horror case. So it's kind of weird we're not doing that before. But Lorraine and Ed Warren, they were back, I guess, in the 80s, prolific demonologists and really made a name for themselves. Maybe you believe what they said and what they experienced. Maybe you don't. Maybe you need to tune in next week to decide.

Remi 1:57:15

Yes, and thank you all for joining us per usual. I hope you enjoyed our banter. A lot more fiery than normal tonight. I wouldn't have thought this for Cherry, out of all things. But I am looking forward to our Devil Made Me Do It episode. We have been uploading a lot of stuff on TikTok and Instagram and YouTube. We got a YouTube channel now, so check that out at criminal adaptations. But until next time, thank you all for joining us, and court is adjourned.

Joe Russo 1:57:58

Hey. Okay there?

The Conjuring: The Devil Made Me Do It 1:58:04

Jesus. I think I heard someone. This is Ed Warren here with Lorraine. All right, let's get started.

Cherry 1:58:17

Residents of Brookfield were shocked this afternoon by the broad daylight murder of Bruno Sol.

The Conjuring: The Devil Made Me Do It 1:58:25

The court accepts the existence of God every time a witness swears to tell the truth. I think it's about time they accept the existence of the devil.

Cherry 1:58:38

Whatever was going on, whatever happened that day.

Ashley 1:58:45

That was a barney.

The Conjuring: The Devil Made Me Do It 1:58:52

We think your family was cursed.

The Army 1:58:55

And that connection's still open.